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post #401 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

typical Microsoft drone/astroturfer post. Yes there are many things wrong with Windows 7.

1) Microsoft - one of the worst companies ever
2) Requires one to run Anti-Virus, Intrusion detection, etc... just to have a tiny illusion of security. Why not just fix your broken OS?
3) Super expensive. How much does it cost? Not to mention the "upgrades" cost
4) How many versions do they need to try and nickel and dime people?
5) The registry
6) Uses proprietary file formats and protocols everywhere rather than use existing standards
7) i could go on for a long time...

well said. i will also add...its totally unrefined garish looking UI
post #402 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Often this takes the form of peppering a thread with endless sarcastic little jibes, and sometimes it takes the form of longer rants about Apple's greed, or hatred of freedom, or plans to kill us all, or just the generally distasteful nature of anyone likes or uses their kit.

Myself, I don't see why it's necessary to indulge these types. They never bring anything but discord to any thread they participate in, they're not making legitimate criticisms, or if they are it's incidental to what they're about.

+ 1 ... and another 1
post #403 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I've said this before, but I think troll behavior is best discerned over a number of posts.

There are lots of people here who have some pet gripes about Apple, or at times bitch about what Apple does or doesn't do-- just as you'd expect.

But there are more than a few that never, ever, ever say a single thing about Apple or Apple's customers that isn't couched in the bitterest, most negative terms possible. Often this takes the form of peppering a thread with endless sarcastic little jibes, and sometimes it takes the form of longer rants about Apple's greed, or hatred of freedom, or plans to kill us all, or just the generally distasteful nature of anyone likes or uses their kit.

Myself, I don't see why it's necessary to indulge these types. They never bring anything but discord to any thread they participate in, they're not making legitimate criticisms, or if they are it's incidental to what they're about. I guess the concern is that we don't want a forum of fan boys and a certain population of cranky contrarians keeps us honest, but it really doesn't seem to do anything more than derail a lot of threads into bickering.

Honestly, is anyone expecting, say, Blackintosh to bring on point criticism to bear? I can't see anything but relentless negativity. How is someone who posts nothing but complaints and bile in a platform specific user forum anything but a troll? And how is not possible to make that distinction when you have a pretty lengthy posting history to go on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

+ 1 ... and another 1


I agree. Though I don't think that there are enough mods to monitor, say, 10 active threads, 24/7.

What would help is some sort of mod-alert mechanism -- perhaps, even alerting the troll that he is being "reported".

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #404 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It really isn't easy. I've had people accuse me of being a troll when I didn't like something Apple did. People have to be allowed their opinions even when they're far out. As long as they don't abuse people in some way, or make derogatory statements that are inflammatory, it's hard to do much, and be fair. And honestly, some of the "refutations" are worse than the original trolling.

I agree it can't be easy. However, in the last few months there have been a number of trolls whose MO have been very similar .. and stand out like a sore thumb. Addabox has clearly spelled out the nature of their posts. Let me add another warning sign.

They post A LOT!

One hundred posts a month (directly after joining) seems to be the rule of thumb. Try a "members search" using those parameters. Then go back a few months... here's who you find (amongst others)

sendMe
Blackintosh
appl
AppleRulez
SpotOn
Stevie
WilliamG
iLuv
Teckstud
Woohoo!
AngusYoung
iGenius
Mrkoolaid

Unlike Dick A's "dentist friend" these guys will find any reason to snark about every aspect of every Apple product. It's constant and annoying and is bringing the tone of this forum down to Digg levels.
post #405 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

I agree it can't be easy. However, in the last few months there have been a number of trolls whose MO have been very similar .. and stand out like a sore thumb. Addabox has clearly spelled out the nature of their posts. Let me add another warning sign.

They post A LOT!

One hundred posts a month (directly after joining) seems to be the rule of thumb. Try a "members search" using those parameters. Then go back a few months... here's who you find (amongst others)

sendMe
Blackintosh
appl
AppleRulez
SpotOn
Stevie
WilliamG
iLuv
Teckstud
Woohoo!
AngusYoung
iGenius
Mrkoolaid

Unlike Dick A's "dentist friend" these guys will find any reason to snark about every aspect of every Apple product. It's constant and annoying and is bringing the tone of this forum down to Digg levels.


Yep!

Whenever I read a post that appears like troll output, I always glance at the poster's join date and number of posts. Then drill-down on his other posts for verification.

It helps, but isn't foolproof.

Often, a troll joined a while back, like the 3GS announcement, He is quite active for a while, then goes silent (maybe even banned).

But, then, when another Apple event occurs, (with a large audience) -- there he is again... up to his usual, disruptive shotgun posting.

Sometimes, it appears that several (paid?) trolls appear together -- serving up FUD softballs and feeding off each other.


I like AI, and have kerned (something, automatically just changed "learned" to "kerned") a lot here and enjoy the banter.


I would like to see the troll situation improved -- but, maybe, it's like "free speech" -- you have to accept the "bad" to benefit from the "good".

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #406 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I agree. Though I don't think that there are enough mods to monitor, say, 10 active threads, 24/7.

What would help is some sort of mod-alert mechanism -- perhaps, even alerting the troll that he is being "reported".

.

That's the thing though: the kind of behavior we're talking about doesn't require post to post monitoring. It's a cumulative thing. I would think that, if the mods are paying even peripheral attention to threads, that it's pretty clear who the offenders are. I mean, there's that list posted above. Does anyone here really disagree that these folks are mostly here to ruffle feathers and stir up anger? It's like this open secret, but we have to pretend that "unless they're personally attacking someone there's no way to tell spirited debate from trolling."

Now, most of the people on that list have been banned, but I doubt it was for any particular ad hom type post. So why are the ones still active allowed to carry on? Is there a "you can troll for 6 months and then we're going to ban you" rule or something?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #407 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

I agree it can't be easy. However, in the last few months there have been a number of trolls whose MO have been very similar .. and stand out like a sore thumb. Addabox has clearly spelled out the nature of their posts. Let me add another warning sign.

They post A LOT!

One hundred posts a month (directly after joining) seems to be the rule of thumb. Try a "members search" using those parameters. Then go back a few months... here's who you find (amongst others)

sendMe
Blackintosh
appl
AppleRulez
SpotOn
Stevie
WilliamG
iLuv
Teckstud
Woohoo!
AngusYoung
iGenius
Mrkoolaid


And Newtron, one of the worst. I'm sure many have noticed that a Windows or PC related topic brings them out in teams. I would go for a reporting method whether the reporter is ID'd or not.

It must be really tiresome and puzzling for non-US followers to have to wade through this trash-strewn thread. I was thinking of counting up the number of appl's posts, but that in itself is a waste of time. Anyway, not only has civility been falling in this culture but duplicity is rising correspondingly. If these guys are getting paid, as many suspect, what does that say about the entity that is paying them?
post #408 of 434
I forgot, back on topic: The 16:9 aspect ratio looks ungainly when it's in tablet form, to me anyway, sort of like a plank you might serve a fish on. I just saw the two new MB Airs. The small one is more 16:9 but it's anchored by the keyboard and by its function as a lid. It's not a naked screen, in other words. SJ and J Ive would never make a 'wide-screen' tablet, I'm pretty sure, on aesthetic grounds alone. The Pad is not trying to be a movie screen. That sort of function blurring would be very un-Apple.
post #409 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

I forgot, back on topic: The 16:9 aspect ratio looks ungainly when it's in tablet form, to me anyway, sort of like a plank you might serve a fish on. I just saw the two new MB Airs. The small one is more 16:9 but it's anchored by the keyboard and by its function as a lid. It's not a naked screen, in other words. SJ and J Ive would never make a 'wide-screen' tablet, I'm pretty sure, on aesthetic grounds alone. The Pad is not trying to be a movie screen. That sort of function blurring would be very un-Apple.

I agree!

The Galaxy Tab squishes the virtual kb keys vertically when in landscape mode -- otherwise the keyboard would use over 1/2 the display.

A 16:9 screen looks weird in portrait mode vis-a-visa a book page, photograph, etc.

The biggest advantage of a 7" 16:9 tablet is, i believe, that it will fit a lab coat pocket, cargo pants pockets or a small[er] lady's purse.

One galaxy shot shows a user with a Tab in his front jeans pocket -- talk about pressure. Just wait until the rumors start -- that the electronic signals and magnetic fields can cause a loss of, shall we say: stature and vigor.

In the larger size of the HP, I think the advantages (above) disappear and you are left with a screen that is great for viewing HD moves, but less than optimal for anything else.

It will be interesting to try and compare these different form factors side-by-side (cheek-to-cheek?)... I'll forgo the jeans-pocket test.

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #410 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

I agree it can't be easy. However, in the last few months there have been a number of trolls whose MO have been very similar .. and stand out like a sore thumb. Addabox has clearly spelled out the nature of their posts. Let me add another warning sign.

They post A LOT!

One hundred posts a month (directly after joining) seems to be the rule of thumb. Try a "members search" using those parameters. Then go back a few months... here's who you find (amongst others)

sendMe
Blackintosh
appl
AppleRulez
SpotOn
Stevie
WilliamG
iLuv
Teckstud
Woohoo!
AngusYoung
iGenius
Mrkoolaid

Unlike Dick A's "dentist friend" these guys will find any reason to snark about every aspect of every Apple product. It's constant and annoying and is bringing the tone of this forum down to Digg levels.

I would add to that list, the infamous "Newtron".
post #411 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

And Newtron, one of the worst. I'm sure many have noticed that a Windows or PC related topic brings them out in teams. I would go for a reporting method whether the reporter is ID'd or not.

It must be really tiresome and puzzling for non-US followers to have to wade through this trash-strewn thread. I was thinking of counting up the number of appl's posts, but that in itself is a waste of time. Anyway, not only has civility been falling in this culture but duplicity is rising correspondingly. If these guys are getting paid, as many suspect, what does that say about the entity that is paying them?

Ah you recall him too. And indeed it is the non-Apple threads that inflames them the most.

Don't worry about non-US followers. Things are not necessarily that fantastic in our non-US part of the world.
post #412 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

I agree it can't be easy. However, in the last few months there have been a number of trolls whose MO have been very similar .. and stand out like a sore thumb. Addabox has clearly spelled out the nature of their posts. Let me add another warning sign.

They post A LOT!

One hundred posts a month (directly after joining) seems to be the rule of thumb. Try a "members search" using those parameters. Then go back a few months... here's who you find (amongst others)

sendMe
Blackintosh
appl
AppleRulez
SpotOn
Stevie
WilliamG
iLuv
Teckstud
Woohoo!
AngusYoung
iGenius
Mrkoolaid

Unlike Dick A's "dentist friend" these guys will find any reason to snark about every aspect of every Apple product. It's constant and annoying and is bringing the tone of this forum down to Digg levels.

I haven't seen a lot of those names. I can't imagine where they're posting. It's odd, but every so often, someone will post with several thousand posts to their credit, and it's the first time I've seen them post.

This is why it's a problem. Some days I'm here a lot, either posting in a couple of threads, where I can see, and looking at others where I'm not posting. But there are a lot of new threads being started in the forums that I never get to see. It's just too much. And then I'm away for a bit of time. We do need a couple more mods, but it's not easy to get people all of the time. Sometime people who want to mod shouldn't, and the ones who should don't want to.
post #413 of 434
I was labelled a troll during Antennagate, and I admit I was hyper about the whole thing. It was the dizzying desirability of the iPhone 4 that conflicted with this apparently idiotic flaw.

Anyways months later, I have my iPhone 4 through my local carrier, my free case, and life goes on, and I can't go back to a 3GS, no way.

Sometimes we have to acknowledge that the brand can stir up all kinds of really strong emotions and "counter-emotions"; the latter being the thing that drives the hater-frenzy. Trolls are driven by a kind of furious deniability that things could be going so well for a company that purposefully does things to its own rhythm in defiance of what others expect (for better or worse). A sense of being "cheated", to them, when looking at raw prices and specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I agree. I act as a mod on a friend's LiveCast -- often, it is a fine line between a spammer/troller and one who contributes to the dialog.

The "great" spammers/trolls (like the legendary Eric Schmidt* ) go right up to the line, but do not cross.

* One of the greatest trolls of all time

I am sure that many of us come across as a troll when the discussion is on a topic in which we specialize -- and others are making blatant, false claims. I know I do!

Here's a recent example of someone who appeared to be a troll, but was not.

It was Antennaegate. A professional (a dentist, I think) bought a new iP4. It worked fine in the Apple store and the nearby AT&T store. But 200 yards from either, he could not hold any bars and would drop calls. He did not want to use a case. Three replacements later (and as many trips to the Apple and AT&T stores)... he was pissed and frustrated AIR he had sold his 3GS -- which he really liked.

He logged into an AI forum and posted questions about what others were seeing. It was a pretty mild post, considering his recent experience.

There were a lot of trolls on that thread -- and some (me included) thought he was just another paid hack.

But, his posts, while negative, were well reasoned. Several members drew him out -- he had a valid gripe!

He returned the iP4, but looks forward to a fix or the 1P5 when it comes out.

I have, since, seen him contribute to other threads -- he is definitely not a troll!

.
post #414 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Ah you recall him too. And indeed it is the non-Apple threads that inflames them the most.

Don't worry about non-US followers. Things are not necessarily that fantastic in our non-US part of the world.

I really don't think these people are being paid. To what purpose? It just gets people even more entrenched about their positive feelings about Apple, so it serves a negative purpose.

If they were being paid, they would be much more careful in what they say, so they would come across as knowledgable and reasonable. Since they are neither, insulting us isn't going to help anyone paying them.

Some people have a psychological deficit in their feelings about themselves, and have to try to make others feel smaller than they are, in order to pump themselves up so that they feel better about themselves. This extends to the choices they make in life.

So, perhaps they are harried at work, have few real friends, have a poor family relationship, etc. It's classic. It the same as those who you see heading up the Klu Klux klan. If you pay attention to them, you'll notice that it's almost always someone who has a very low prestige job, and a disrupted family life.

At least, that's what I remember from my degree in psychology a long time ago.
post #415 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I really don't think these people are being paid. To what purpose? It just gets people even more entrenched about their positive feelings about Apple, so it serves a negative purpose.

If they were being paid, they would be much more careful in what they say, so they would come across as knowledgable and reasonable. Since they are neither, insulting us isn't going to help anyone paying them.

Some people have a psychological deficit in their feelings about themselves, and have to try to make others feel smaller than they are, in order to pump themselves up so that they feel better about themselves. This extends to the choices they make in life.

So, perhaps they are harried at work, have few real friends, have a poor family relationship, etc. It's classic. It the same as those who you see heading up the Klu Klux klan. If you pay attention to them, you'll notice that it's almost always someone who has a very low prestige job, and a disrupted family life.

At least, that's what I remember from my degree in psychology a long time ago.

Yeah, it's called schmuckenfreude!

.
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"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #416 of 434
Clarification on Instant On feature

From Apple's website:
"And when you put MacBook Air to sleep for more than an hour, it enters whats called standby mode. So you can come back to MacBook Air a day, a week even up to an entire month later and it wakes in an instant."
post #417 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Clarification on Instant On feature

From Apple's website:
"And when you put MacBook Air to sleep for more than an hour, it enters whats called standby mode. So you can come back to MacBook Air a day, a week even up to an entire month later and it wakes in an instant."

It's a good beginning step to 10.7, when it will begin to have true instant on.
post #418 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You might be onto something, except for the fact that Windows 7 was designed with a touch interface in mind as well, there is a free product that is available which is called "Microsoft Touch Pack for Windows 7"

Yes indeed it has. Have you ever used that monstrosity? I tried it in a store and was NOT impressed. Windows 7 IS NOT designed to be used on touchdevices. Why else would a 19" touchpanel have microscopical details that you have to hit. They only made SOME alterations for the use but the App-windows are still the same.
post #419 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Sometimes we have to acknowledge that the brand can stir up all kinds of really strong emotions and "counter-emotions"; the latter being the thing that drives the hater-frenzy. Trolls are driven by a kind of furious deniability that things could be going so well for a company that purposefully does things to its own rhythm in defiance of what others expect (for better or worse). A sense of being "cheated", to them, when looking at raw prices and specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I really don't think these people are being paid. To what purpose? It just gets people even more entrenched about their positive feelings about Apple, so it serves a negative purpose.

If they were being paid, they would be much more careful in what they say, so they would come across as knowledgable and reasonable. Since they are neither, insulting us isn't going to help anyone paying them.

Some people have a psychological deficit in their feelings about themselves, and have to try to make others feel smaller than they are, in order to pump themselves up so that they feel better about themselves. This extends to the choices they make in life.

So, perhaps they are harried at work, have few real friends, have a poor family relationship, etc. It's classic. It the same as those who you see heading up the Klu Klux klan. If you pay attention to them, you'll notice that it's almost always someone who has a very low prestige job, and a disrupted family life.

At least, that's what I remember from my degree in psychology a long time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yeah, it's called schmuckenfreude!

.

So there are two theories, the psychological/schmuckenfreude theory, and the paid-troll theory.

Interesting idea from MelGross that paid trolls would be better spokespersons, and know all the PR lingo about the companies' products they're shilling for. Sometimes appl and DaHarder have sounded like they know too much about the press-release details of non-Apple stuff, but then I'm possibly reading too much in to it out of paranoia, induced partly by watching the dirty-trick industry since the days of . . . well, I don't want to say any names, or show how long I've been . . . all right, I remember the 50s and very staged senate hearings in black-and-white TV. But why would anyone bother to sabotage or distract AI, the best Apple news site, in an organized, financed way? And why would they choose blustering stooges to do the work? As Dick A says, that just makes everybody refine their perceptions and critiques of Apple products. But does it help the cause, or does it rather distract from the best understanding of what's going on in this huge technical paradigm shift? B'tosh always prods at the visceral with his jabs at Jobs, appl hits at the left-brain hardware level, as did Newtron, etc. These guys seem like bad clowns, but are they?

Enough already. The reverse-positive-effect hypothesis of Dick A is a better way to look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Clarification on Instant On feature

From Apple's website:
"And when you put MacBook Air to sleep for more than an hour, it enters what’s called standby mode. So you can come back to MacBook Air a day, a week — even up to an entire month later — and it wakes in an instant."

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's a good beginning step to 10.7, when it will begin to have true instant on.

And the better Apple gets with these details, the more obvious it becomes that they have invented the process of inventing desirable inventions.* The Art of Technology, or something like that. So now the jealousy gets even worse? That's what we have to short-circuit somehow, the jealousy. The anti-progressives are blocking the full awareness that we're making progress.

Meanwhile, the first Apple knowledge farm is about to open in NC. Oops, I mean server farm . . . .

*Or re-invented, if you count Edison, Armstrong, Bell Labs, etc.
post #420 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Six months after the launch of Apple's iPad, HP is ready to launch its Slate 500 tablet device, which will cost $799 and is aimed at business customers.

Several news sites and blogs published details of the product launch Thursday, although the official HP Slate page at www.hp.com/go/slate had yet to go live.

According to Reuters, the HP Slate 500 will fit a full-version of Windows 7 into a 1.5 pound tablet with an 8.9-inch multi-touch screen and a 5-hour battery life. With 64GB of Flash storage, the device is $100 more than the comparable 64GB iPad. The tablet will reportedly have a 1024-by-600-pixel resolution.

The Slate 500 comes with a "digital stylus pen" and is equipped with front and rear cameras and a USB port. According to Engadget, the Slate is powered by a 1.86 GHz Intel Atom Z540 processor and 2GB of RAM.



Unlike Apple, which markets the iPad primarily to consumers, HP is stressing the Slate 500's suitability for business users. "It's really like a full-function PC, it runs Windows, it will run your office applications, it just so happens to be in a slate form factor," said Carol Hess-Nickels, director of business notebook marketing at HP.



Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer unveiled the HP Slate at CES in January. Following HP's purchase of Palm, which was primarily for its WebOS, news of the upcoming HP Slate dwindled. HP has since promised a consumer-focused WebOS-based tablet will be released next year.

During Apple's Q4 2010 conference call Monday, Apple CEO Steve Jobs told analysts that rival tablet makers were having trouble matching the iPad's pricing with comparable specs.

"Our potential competitors [in tablets] are having a tough time coming close to iPad's pricing," Jobs said. "iPad incorporates everything we've learned about building high value products. We create our own A4 chip, software, battery chemistry, enclosure, everything. This results in an incredible product at a great price. The proof will be in the pricing of our competitors' products, which will offer less for more."

For a comparison of the Slate versus the iPad, see the chart below.



HP sucks and their quality control is horrible plus their customer service. Forget the slate it is a loser like Fiorina the former ceo.
post #421 of 434
Hi Mel.

I am told that only you can see this.

The reason I troll here is because this forum is full of kooks who go wild with crazy responses.

I used to troll Christian usenet groups, but even they are less crazy than some of the posters here. I used to troll reactionary political groups. I used to troll survivalist groups. I used to troll other types of groups with crazy people in them. Even other Apple oriented web fora, like Cult of Mac.

But none of those even begin to compare to this group. You've attracted a group of rabid nutcases here, who go nuts at the least provocation. Hell, the use of an adjective can set off HUGE amounts of foolish remarks by these guys. And every one of those foolish remarks can be dissected and shown to be foolish, which just gets someone else to say something even more foolish and/or less defensible.

You have a good crop of illogical folks who will battle to the death over something like their idiosyncratic mis-definition of a word, digging in deeper and deeper despite every goddamned dictionary in the world showing them to be wrong. When wrong, they change the subject and say something else that is also foolish.

I love it here Mel. And you have no tools to keep me away.

Tell the regulars to stop being friggin nutcases about stuff. That is your only hope.
post #422 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

So there are two theories, the psychological/schmuckenfreude theory, and the paid-troll theory.

Interesting idea from MelGross that paid trolls would be better spokespersons, and know all the PR lingo about the companies' products they're shilling for. Sometimes appl and DaHarder have sounded like they know too much about the press-release details of non-Apple stuff, but then I'm possibly reading too much in to it out of paranoia, induced partly by watching the dirty-trick industry since the days of . . . well, I don't want to say any names, or show how long I've been . . . all right, I remember the 50s and very staged senate hearings in black-and-white TV. But why would anyone bother to sabotage or distract AI, the best Apple news site, in an organized, financed way? And why would they choose blustering stooges to do the work? As Dick A says, that just makes everybody refine their perceptions and critiques of Apple products. But does it help the cause, or does it rather distract from the best understanding of what's going on in this huge technical paradigm shift? B'tosh always prods at the visceral with his jabs at Jobs, appl hits at the left-brain hardware level, as did Newtron, etc. These guys seem like bad clowns, but are they?

Enough already. The reverse-positive-effect hypothesis of Dick A is a better way to look at it.

I. too, remember the "hearings" of the 50s -- quite a few political and journalist careers were made as a result. Little else!

Sadly, that type of posturing continues to this day.

The schadenfreude reference was partially meant as a joke -- though you do see some of that on both sides of many discussions.

I don't know if there is a term for it -- it's kinda like "cutting him down to size". It's where someone envies the buying/ownership/leadership opportunities of others that are not available to himself. Through prior decisions. finances, peer pressure, company fiat, whatever -- the person cannot take advantage of a superior brand or product. What's left is to demean the brand/product to remove a little luster of the leader. You see some of that in posts, here.

Another way to examine the issue of trolling is: "follow the money" -- or who benefits from the trolling. Here are the possibilities as I see it:

1) The company posting the article and the forum -- they get lots of hits == ad $$

2) The author writing the article -- he may be trying to build (or maintain) a reputation as a knowledgeable and/or controversial tech guru. I can think of many cases where an author cites other articles by himself to support his opinions and enhance his reputation. Often, the author will participate in the forum. There were times when I felt the author was posting under a pseudonym so he could "stir the pot" or bounce ideas off himself. All of this would mean $$ to the author.

3) Vaporware. A company, plans to release a new produce against an established competitive product -- for example: any tablet manufacturer against the iPad. The company doesn't, yet, have a product to sell. It believes its product will be competitive, when available.. If they can delay a buying decision, it could result in a [later] competitive win. One way to do this (I can envision) is to hire people to seek out potential buyers and decision influencers, and to confuse them and/or reduce their influence. Potential buyers, often look to web reviews, and discussion forums such as AI to help them make a decision. If a discussion is chaotic, with lots of FUD being spread by a few trolls -- The potential buyer is confused. The confused buyer does not buy -- he waits! That's exactly what the vaporware vendor wants! The trolls, in this case, don't need to be particularly good -- just vocal and outrageous.

4) The investment Gurus. Some of these people make their $$ and reputation "predicting" market movement of stocks. Often, they will look to (google) reviews and forums to help form or support their "predictions". Some may go further than just "looking". AIR, Jim Cramer claimed he could affect the price of AAPL stock. He and Scott Moritz, will sometimes bounce supporting opinions back and forth similar to the ways some trolls work.

5) Any news is good news. If you are building a brand name or promoting a product, one of the goals is to get the name "out there" -- get people talking about it. It doesn't even need to portray the product/brand in a positive way -- people will remember that they heard about it (not what they heard). For example. you want to buy an mp3 player, and have narrowed it down to 3 products: iPod; Zune; ScanDisk. You google each. There are thousands of hits. You can't read them all... based on hit counts you see that the most popular are...

There are others, and combinations/permutations of the above -- sometimes, these stories get picked up by the mainstream press.

As far as AI is concerned. I do believe that AI publishes articles to attract readers -- That's their job!

Sometimes, the articles are slanted, sometimes biased! Sometimes they could use a little more fact checking. Some of that goes with the territory -- you sacrifice things to bring the discussion to the table, in a timely way.

I do not believe that AI is paying trolls to add hits to the articles -- though, it seems that AI thinks (as do I) that a little trolling adds spice to the discussion.

I follow a number of sites with articles/forums on topics that interest me -- or just for fun. I post to a few of them.

Currently (for the past year, or so) AI is best of breed of sites discussing Apple and their products.

I would like to see AI do a somewhat better job of troll control.

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post #423 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

the reason for this is appl is now gone from the site with an admin service in vBulletin called Tacky Goes To Coventry. It makes him invisible but it doesnt block or delete his account, in and of itself. The admins can see him and its possible he is still posting without realizing that his posts are no longer showing up to any normal users or those not logged in at all.

B

These guys need to RTFM.

"Note:
If you change this option, you need to rebuild thread and then forum information in Maintenance > Update Counters."
post #424 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I. too, remember the "hearings" of the 50s -- quite a few political and journalist careers were made as a result. Little else!

Sadly, that type of posturing continues to this day.

( . . . . )
As far as AI is concerned. I do believe that AI publishes articles to attract readers -- That's their job!

Sometimes, the articles are slanted, sometimes biased! Sometimes they could use a little more fact checking. Some of that goes with the territory -- you sacrifice things to bring the discussion to the table, in a timely way.

I do not believe that AI is paying trolls to add hits to the articles -- though, it seems that AI thinks (as do I) that a little trolling adds spice to the discussion.

I follow a number of sites with articles/forums on topics that interest me -- or just for fun. I post to a few of them.

Currently (for the past year, or so) AI is best of breed of sites discussing Apple and their products.

L would like top see AI do a somewhat better job of troll control.

Hope I wasn't giving the impression that I think AI is paying trolls to keep things moving. That never crossed my mind. Other 'sock-puppet masters,' as hiro has called them, have occurred to me, but not AI, certainly.

I would be glad to participate in troll control -- good phrase -- by doing some kind of downrating when it becomes obvious.

Thanks for your usual wide and detailed perspective. I'm going to give up on the hypothesis that the trolls are doing a paid job, since there's no way to prove anything, obviously. The suggestion is out there, others have also made it, and that's enough for me. It's also a relief that the two recent repeat offenders are gone for now. I notice that responding to them does bring out the occasional good insight, but overall, the cost/benefit ratio is not that great. There is enough low-level narrow-mindedness and crankiness that doesn't fit the troll pattern to respond to. On the other hand, I have seen threads which seem a little tame because everybody is being too agreeable, so I know what you're saying about spicing up the conversation.
post #425 of 434
I certainly am disappointed in seeing this tablet released with Windows 7 instead of webOS (even though they say the webOS one is coming.) Last year at this time I wouldn't have been, but I've definitely changed my mind.
post #426 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

If these guys are getting paid, as many suspect, what does that say about the entity that is paying them?

I REALLY doubt anyone's paying people to troll forums like these
post #427 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Hope I wasn't giving the impression that I think AI is paying trolls to keep things moving. That never crossed my mind. Other 'sock-puppet masters,' as hiro has called them, have occurred to me, but not AI, certainly.

I would be glad to participate in troll control -- good phrase -- by doing some kind of downrating when it becomes obvious.

Thanks for your usual wide and detailed perspective. I'm going to give up on the hypothesis that the trolls are doing a paid job, since there's no way to prove anything, obviously. The suggestion is out there, others have also made it, and that's enough for me. It's also a relief that the two recent repeat offenders are gone for now. I notice that responding to them does bring out the occasional good insight, but overall, the cost/benefit ratio is not that great. There is enough low-level narrow-mindedness and crankiness that doesn't fit the troll pattern to respond to. On the other hand, I have seen threads which seem a little tame because everybody is being too agreeable, so I know what you're saying about spicing up the conversation.

Nah! You didn't give the impresseion that AI is paying the trolls. I was trying to think out loud about a subject that others have touched upon. As you say, it is not a very good cost/benefit proposition.

More likely, it is a group of juveniles -- making the 21st century equivalent of prank calls.

I think I like the idea of down rating trolls. I've seen and used the thumbs up/down on other forums -- it is a convenient way of rating a post and poster without posting a response...

I think something can/should be done to control the trolls.


That said... Some of the guys I hang with, are going out Hallowe'en and turn over a few outhouses... Interested?

.
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"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #428 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Hope I wasn't giving the impression that I think AI is paying trolls to keep things moving. That never crossed my mind. Other 'sock-puppet masters,' as hiro has called them, have occurred to me, but not AI, certainly.

I'm not of the opinion the trolls were paid either, but I certainly do think they are doing it as a mission, not mere prankdom. Keeping up pranks for as long as the latest series of related trolls has run take way too much energy to be a simple prankster. There is most definitely a more deeply motivated mission providing the endurance. The fact they are getting a reverse result from what their mission objective may be is more a mater of the execution style being really poor, not the lack of a mission.

And one last thing on the Sock-Puppet master, I think most of the trolls have actually been one single human being, with a whole bunch of aliases -- the single alias owner being master of his Sock-Puppets. I don't have access to log files or anything like that so it is pure speculation based on patterns and catch phrases over the lifespan of the individual eventually banned aliases.
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post #429 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

I'm not of the opinion the trolls were paid either, but I certainly do think they are doing it as a mission, not mere prankdom. Keeping up pranks for as long as the latest series of related trolls has run take way too much energy to be a simple prankster. There is most definitely a more deeply motivated mission providing the endurance. The fact they are getting a reverse result from what their mission objective may be is more a mater of the execution style being really poor, not the lack of a mission.

And one last thing on the Sock-Puppet master, I think most of the trolls have actually been one single human being, with a whole bunch of aliases -- the single alias owner being master of his Sock-Puppets. I don't have access to log files or anything like that so it is pure speculation based on patterns and catch phrases over the lifespan of the individual eventually banned aliases.

So, an organized, or at least goal-oriented, campaign against Apple, out of a deeply motivated mission. That I can see, but it has remarkable staying power. I wasn't around when Tekstud merged into Newtron, but I did see Newtron become appl. Blackintosh, though, has too quirky a style to be anybody else I've seen. But like I say, haven't been around that long.

I started following the site when the rumours about an Apple tablet got serious late last year, and I was surprised to see the level of perverse contrariness that you all had to put up with, probably going way back. Neither Blackintosh, Newtron nor appl seem to have day jobs. Curious. Oh, but I'm swearing off the paid-troll hypothesis . . . .
post #430 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

So, an organized, or at least goal-oriented, campaign against Apple, out of a deeply motivated mission. That I can see, but it has remarkable staying power. I wasn't around when Tekstud merged into Newtron, but I did see Newtron become appl. Blackintosh, though, has too quirky a style to be anybody else I've seen. But like I say, haven't been around that long.

I started following the site when the rumours about an Apple tablet got serious late last year, and I was surprised to see the level of perverse contrariness that you all had to put up with, probably going way back. Neither Blackintosh, Newtron nor appl seem to have day jobs. Curious. Oh, but I'm swearing off the paid-troll hypothesis . . . .

To me I think it's just some individuals with various challenges, even though any competitor would love to have them under their employ.

It's a forum, so people don't reply to individual posts, so you get less individual attention.

Sometimes trolls just do it so that the posts are directed to them personally.
post #431 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

To me I think it's just some individuals with various challenges, even though any competitor would love to have them under their employ.

It's a forum, so people don't reply to individual posts, so you get less individual attention.

Sometimes trolls just do it so that the posts are directed to them personally.

This is an angle I hadn't thought of. I'll have to ponder that one.
post #432 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

To me I think it's just some individuals with various challenges, even though any competitor would love to have them under their employ.

It's a forum, so people don't reply to individual posts, so you get less individual attention.

Sometimes trolls just do it so that the posts are directed to them personally.

We don't reply to individual posts?
post #433 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We don't reply to individual posts?

LOL I meant "posters do not always reply to individual posts in a way that certain attention-seeking posters may desire"... That is, the conversation is multi-directional, unlike online chat or Facebook, where a user's posts are replied to and responded to in a more direct fashion.
post #434 of 434
Apple is doomed.

I haven't seen an HP press release stating they are attacking the iPod. But taking on the iPad this will fail in a big way. Protecting some of their Key Account customers it might have a reason to exist. But still: WIndows and stylus does not sound like a success story in the making to me.
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