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Steve Jobs on Java: Apple-built updates 'may not be the best way'

post #1 of 48
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In an e-mail claimed to be from Steve Jobs, the Apple chief executive explained that Apple may no longer develop their own Java for the Mac because it is almost always a version behind the one produced by Oracle and Sun.

Apple revealed this week that it may remove the Apple-produced Java runtime from future versions of Mac OS X, perhaps starting with next year's 10.7 Lion. The Java runtime shipping in Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard and Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will be supported through the support cycles of those products.

A concerned developer -- Scott Fraser, CTO of Portico Systems -- sent an e-mail to Jobs, and claims he received a response from the Apple co-founder. In it, Jobs indicated that because Sun, acquired by Oracle for more than $7 billion, has its own release schedules for Java on other non-Mac platforms, Apple supplying its own build doesn't make sense.

"The Java we ship is always a version behind," Jobs allegedly said. "This may not be the best way to do it."

The CEO's purported comments could be interpreted to mean that Oracle will release its own Java updates for the Mac alongside the other platforms it supports, making it unnecessary for Apple to craft its own, usually outdated updates. However, though things appear to be moving in that direction, Jobs's alleged e-mail did not directly indicate that was the case.

Apple has already reorganized how Java runtime homes are installed on Mac OS X, believed to be in an effort to facilitate third-party releases of the Java virtual machine. This change would allow Oracle to release Java for the Mac, rather than waiting for Apple to maintain its own Java releases for the platform.
post #2 of 48
Makes sense as Microsoft does not make Java for Windows and Linux Distros do not make their own javas. they all rely on Sun/Oracle or other builds.
post #3 of 48
When you compare the way Jobs talks about Flash and Java I think there is a respect for Oracle and/or Elision.
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post #4 of 48
no reason why the Mac Store cant have these updates. That's from Oracle, but distributed by Apple.
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post #5 of 48
As long as Apple shipped its own version of Java, Oracle would have no incentive to make its own most up-to-date version for the Mac. Larry Ellison must have convinced Steve that they can do a better job than Sun at supporting the Mac and it will mean less R&D dollars that Apple has to spend in order to keep Java on the Mac although always one version behind.
post #6 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

no reason why the Mac Store cant have these updates. That's from Oracle, but distributed by Apple.

My guess is that Java would probably violate the developer terms for the store.
post #7 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

When you compare the way Jobs talks about Flash and Java I think there is a respect for Oracle and/or Elision.

Steve is very good pals with Ellison. He went to Larry's wedding (well, the last one, at least).
post #8 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Makes sense as Microsoft does not make Java for Windows and Linux Distros do not make their own javas. they all rely on Sun/Oracle or other builds.

Originally, the responsibility of porting the JVM to given platform was that of the OS manufacturer. In many cases, it still is... IBM ports the JVM for AIX. HP ports the JVM HP-UX, etc. Oracle (originally Sun) only took on the Linux and Windows builds for "control" of the JVM on those platforms. MS wanted to do things their way, and Sun wanted nothing to do with that.
post #9 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

My guess is that Java would probably violate the developer terms for the store.

true, didnt think of that.
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post #10 of 48
I trust Apple to write better software for Apple machines than Oracle. Apple's JVM has had some platform specific optimizations & integration for a long time. My concern is that an Oracle developed JVM would not be as well integrated.

Will Apple give Oracle the source code for Apple's JVM?

I use Java every day in the form of NetBeans and Oxygen to develop web apps and other platform independent tools & utilities. The specter of losing of a current JVM from my Mac is worrying.

- Jasen.
post #11 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Makes sense as Microsoft does not make Java for Windows and Linux Distros do not make their own javas. they all rely on Sun/Oracle or other builds.

Of course MS doesn't. They did initially, but they also extended it and tied it to Windows specific APIs so that code written on windows version of Java is not portable to other OSes.

MS got sued by Sun, and Sun won. MS stopped making new versions of Java. But because Java would never have succeeded without being available on most popular and widely distributed platform (Windows and it still remains so), Sun HAD to make java available for Windows.

Mac OS X, is still marginal platform on the desktop and non-existent on the server. There is very little incentive for Oracle to make java available for the OS X. And certainly no money to be made for them.

Google most certainly won't do it. Google and Apple are now competitors and not exactly friends. Why would Google increase the value of competitor's platform by making JDK/tools and more software available for it (dev tools are enabling technology and because of Java's portability, instantly thousands of software titles become available if JRE is available). That would be really silly thing for Google to do.

Yes, Google has some employees using Mac OS X to do Android development, but rest assured, they are already installing Linux on their Macs, as we speak .

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post #12 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

I trust Apple to write better software for Apple machines than Oracle. Apple's JVM has had some platform specific optimizations & integration for a long time. My concern is that an Oracle developed JVM would not be as well integrated.

Will Apple give Oracle the source code for Apple's JVM?

I use Java every day in the form of NetBeans and Oxygen to develop web apps and other platform independent tools & utilities. The specter of losing of a current JVM from my Mac is worrying.

- Jasen.

Yes, but the current version that ships with all other platforms isn't the one that's on the mac by default and other platforms are developing for the current build already. I've had tools I use on a daily basis require newer java builds and SDKs than I had on my machine by default. He makes a valid point, though what really makes me scratch my head is what then happens to ruby, php, perl, and the like when this starts happening? What about apache? Are these all things that end up disappearing? I really like having some of these, albeit outdated, but useful languages built into my machine by default.
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post #13 of 48
Didn't Larry Ellison give Steve props during antennagate?

I know a nice little coffee shop in downtown Palo Alto where they could meet.
post #14 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

Yes, but the current version that ships with all other platforms isn't the one that's on the mac by default and other platforms are developing for the current build already. I've had tools I use on a daily basis require newer java builds and SDKs than I had on my machine by default. He makes a valid point, though what really makes me scratch my head is what then happens to ruby, php, perl, and the like when this starts happening? What about apache? Are these all things that end up disappearing? I really like having some of these, albeit outdated, but useful languages built into my machine by default.

That's not true. JDK on Mac OS X 10.6 is the same version as the latest version available for other platforms. True it took Apple 2 years to make JDK 1.6 available for Macs after everyone else had it, but as of summer last year there is JDK 1.6 for Macs.

Of course this is all irrelevant now, since no software vendor can count on JRE being available for Mac OS X at all, and they should at this point be thinking about their future plans, and since most are caught in the middle of release cycle they now have to either abandon OS X as platform they will support if their software is complex (e.g. Maple) or perhaps port it to OS X native code if it's viable option to do (most large software would take way too long to do that and it requires different kind of experience and developers etc. i.e. not likely to happen).

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post #15 of 48
http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/ent...ments_on_apple

He basically says that Oracle screwed Apple's java efforts before (and made Apple's life harder), so that tells me that Oracle is not likely to do Java for Mac themselves.

I think the only viable option would be that Apple open source their implementation. But if what James says is true, Apple won't do it because they use a lot of secret APIs in their implementation that they don't want others to see.

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post #16 of 48
Welcome to the party, AI. MR scooped you by about 9 hours...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

Steve is very good pals with Ellison. He went to Larry's wedding (well, the last one, at least).

I was going to say, which wedding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post

Google most certainly won't do it. Google and Apple are now competitors and not exactly friends. Why would Google increase the value of competitor's platform by making JDK/tools and more software available for it (dev tools are enabling technology and because of Java's portability, instantly thousands of software titles become available if JRE is available). That would be really silly thing for Google to do.

Yes, Google has some employees using Mac OS X to do Android development, but rest assured, they are already installing Linux on their Macs, as we speak .

Google has their own problems with Java.

Google's Android uses Java-the-language without the Java Virtual Machine (opting for their own Dalvik VM), which allegedly is in violation of their Java license and could cost Google billions if they were to lose.

I wouldn't look to Google to be porting the Java VM to any platform in the near future. I'd bet Eric Schmidt resents Larry Ellison/Oracle a lot more than Steve Jobs/Apple on any given day.

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post #17 of 48
Unrelated: would selling parallels/VMWare on the mac AppStore break the rules?
post #18 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

When you compare the way Jobs talks about Flash and Java I think there is a respect for Oracle and/or Elision.

You got it right
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post #19 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

Didn't Larry Ellison give Steve props during antennagate?

I know a nice little coffee shop in downtown Palo Alto where they could meet.

And you think Steve is not behind Oracle-Android episode?
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post #20 of 48
Does not mean that the releases will be the latest (and not the version lower than far PC).
Look at MS Office Suit. MS releases it for the Mac later.
Because it involves additional support and development, Java for Mac can be released later than for PC, still.

BTW, where does Oracle earns on Java? License?
post #21 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe hs View Post

Unrelated: would selling parallels/VMWare on the mac AppStore break the rules?

Nope. Those products require license keys. That violates the terms of service.
post #22 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

When you compare the way Jobs talks about Flash and Java I think there is a respect for Oracle and/or Elision.

That's because he (Elision) and Jobs are BFFs
post #23 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Nope. Those products require license keys. That violates the terms of service.

I like how you predict what happens with future versions of software and the lack of understanding of hoe AppStore software is licensed.

All App Store software is explicitly licensed to the buyer, before it ever gets installed in the target machine. Your AppleID is embedded into the file, and your machine knows whether it is authorized to play content for that AppleID. That's the exact same purpose as a license key! BUT the user never has to do anything other than authorize a computer once to use everything. Since we have been doing that for years with iTunes nobody even thinks about it anymore.

So given that, how much effort do you think it will take to patch an App that currently has a license key framework with an Apple provided API that does the same thing for almost no continuing developer effort? And if you do that you get ridiculously higher compliance rates and custom tagged files that make sharing software more dangerous for script kiddies who don't think to sanitize the files first. How many people share iTunes originated music now? Or iOS AppStore Apps?

Sure the hardcore audience does, but they are small numbers. But those script kiddies already have iTunes accounts with mommy and daddy's credit card number attached. legal apps are one click away and even easier to get than trying to find warez and warez serials that still run.
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post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe hs View Post

Unrelated: would selling parallels/VMWare on the mac AppStore break the rules?

Would you have to mention Microsoft Windows or Linux when selling Parallels or VMWare through the app store? Whoops....
post #25 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyhyde@me.com View Post

Would you have to mention Microsoft Windows or Linux when selling Parallels or VMWare through the app store? Whoops....

That's why I was asking, I read that *mentioning* another OS in the description violates the terms.
post #26 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe hs View Post

Unrelated: would selling parallels/VMWare on the mac AppStore break the rules?

Yes it would. Those programs install kernel extensions so they can have greater control over your hardware.
post #27 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

My guess is that Java would probably violate the developer terms for the store.

Why? The terms for the Mac app store may be, and probably will be, different from those for the iOS app store.

Not to mention, we haven't seen the terms yet.
post #28 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

Why? The terms for the Mac app store may be, and probably will be, different from those for the iOS app store.

Not to mention, we haven't seen the terms yet.

Yes we have: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...app_store.html
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post #29 of 48
Apple always had a strange, conflicting working dynamic with Sun, a company whose purpose became more aligned to developing technology for the sake of developing technology. Larry Ellison has always had a close, personal relationship with Jobs (and I've always believed that Larry wants to be the Apple of the Enterprise world), so maybe this is a sign that the new boss of Java is handling things differently here, or rather Jobs's personal relationship at work here.
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post #30 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by striker_kk View Post

And you think Steve is not behind Oracle-Android episode?

Tinfoil hats! Black helicopters! Evil doers! Run for the bunkers!

You guys slay me! If you think Larry Ellison does anything that doesn't directly benefit either himself or Oracle (and he sees these as being one and the same), all I can say is that you've obviously never met the man. Too funny!

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post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by striker_kk View Post

And you think Steve is not behind Oracle-Android episode?

Yeah, because Ellison is such a passive little milquetoast that he needs other CEOs to goad him into massive litigation. Jobs is the source of all conflict and disharmony in the universe.
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post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Tinfoil hats! Black helicopters! Evil doers! Run for the bunkers!

You guys slay me! If you think Larry Ellison does anything that doesn't directly benefit either himself or Oracle (and he sees these as being one and the same), all I can say is that you've obviously never met the man. Too funny!

The only way to opine on Larry Ellison is to meet him?

How about this radical scenario - Jobs and Ellison discuss stuff that could benefit both companies, like suing Goggle and Android. At the very least Oracle gets money, at best - for APple - Android is shut down.
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post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

The only way to opine on Larry Ellison is to meet him?

How about this radical scenario - Jobs and Ellison discuss stuff that could benefit both companies, like suing Goggle and Android. At the very least Oracle gets money, at best - for APple - Android is shut down.

"Hey Larry, what say you initiate a massive, costly legal action against Google that might backfire?"

"I dunno Steve, it hadn't really occurred to me....... what's in it for Oracle?"

"Well, if you win you could get a huge settlement, and of course I'll be really grateful if you can kill our chief rival in the smartphone market dead!"

"Wow! A huge settlement you say? Really grateful? So you can do stuff for us like stopping development of Java on your platform? Why didn't I think of that! Call the lawyers!"
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post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Makes sense as Microsoft does not make Java for Windows and Linux Distros do not make their own javas. they all rely on Sun/Oracle or other builds.

Yes, but the real issue will be Sun/Oracle's level of commitment to Java for Mac.
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

"Hey Larry, what say you initiate a massive, costly legal action against Google that might backfire?"

"I dunno Steve, it hadn't really occurred to me....... what's in it for Oracle?"

"Well, if you win you could get a huge settlement, and of course I'll be really grateful if you can kill our chief rival in the smartphone market dead!"

"Wow! A huge settlement you say? Really grateful? So you can do stuff for us like stopping development of Java on your platform? Why didn't I think of that! Call the lawyers!"

Did you get that from the time you met Larry - as clearly you have since you are opining on the issue and apparantly only people who have "met the man" can talk on the subject?

Did he tell you how exactly this suit could "backfire"? It's slam dunk.

CEO's talk. These two talk as friends. In the middle of a conversation, if Jobs mentioned that Google had taken a modifed version of Java for Android, and that that was clearly in violation of patents, then Larry would have called his lawyers. Or Ellison could have mentioned it to Jobs.

Or neither could have happened, it is just within the realms of probability that it did.

Quote:
So you can do stuff for us like stopping development of Java on your platform?

I would say that Oracle dont care about that one bit. MS doesnt develop Java for Windows, why would Apple be in the business of developing Java solutions I dont know, probably lack of interest by Sun back in the day.
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post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Did you get that from the time you met Larry - as clearly you have since you are opining on the issue and apparantly only people who have "met the man" can talk on the subject?

Did he tell you how exactly this suit could "backfire"? It's slam dunk.

CEO's talk. These two talk as friends. In the middle of a conversation, if Jobs mentioned that Google had taken a modifed version of Java for Android, and that that was clearly in violation of patents, then Larry would have called his lawyers. Or Ellison could have mentioned it to Jobs.

Or neither could have happened, it is just within the realms of probability that it did.

Holy moly, your'e worried about mind reading but you're willing to dream this up and call it "in the realm of probability"?

You think Oracle or Ellison need Jobs to explain where infringements on their IP might be happening?

I don't need to know Ellison or be a fly on the wall to understand that big old corporations have teams of lawyers that do nothing but stay abreast of IP issues, or that initiating very large legal actions takes something more than the off-hand comments of a friendly fellow CEO.

As far as Oracle's litigation being a "slam dunk", these kinds of cases are never so cut and dried. It's always a bit of a crapshoot, US patent law being the tangle it is.
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post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

The only way to opine on Larry Ellison is to meet him?

How about this radical scenario - Jobs and Ellison discuss stuff that could benefit both companies, like suing Goggle and Android. At the very least Oracle gets money, at best - for APple - Android is shut down.

Trust me, Ellison is the most singularly "me" focused individual on the face of the planet.

Dream up all the fantasy scenarios you want, but realize that Larry Ellison is in it for Larry Ellison and Larry Ellison alone.

The reason guys like Ellison and Jobs become friends is that, at that level, there are so few people in their world that don't need their help or aren't bucking for some angle financially or aren't pitching some harebrained scheme. Not all the different from why Warren Buffett and Bill Gates hang out. They can be friends because they know there isn't going to be some underlying motive to the friendship. Power can otherwise make for a lonely existence.

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

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post #38 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Makes sense as Microsoft does not make Java for Windows and Linux Distros do not make their own javas. they all rely on Sun/Oracle or other builds.

And this is wonderful, if Oracle really does start shipping a quality Java VM for the Mac. But I'll believe it when I see it.

If I remember correctly, the reason Apple started shipping their own VM was that Sun wasn't doing it, or they were releasing a low-quality version.

If Oracle doesn't ship a Java VM, or if they ship one that doesn't perform well (like how Adobe's Flash player for Mac OS doesn't perform as well as their Windows player), this decision isn't going to make a whole lot of sense.

Hopefully, Apple has considered this and is hedging its bets by continuing internal ports of Java, in order to step in, should Oracle not do what we're hoping.
post #39 of 48
Besides Java and Flash, what other 3rd-party SW does Apple ship with Mac OS X?
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post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Trust me, Ellison is the most singularly "me" focused individual on the face of the planet.

Dream up all the fantasy scenarios you want, but realize that Larry Ellison is in it for Larry Ellison and Larry Ellison alone.

The reason guys like Ellison and Jobs become friends is that, at that level, there are so few people in their world that don't need their help or aren't bucking for some angle financially or aren't pitching some harebrained scheme. Not all the different from why Warren Buffett and Bill Gates hang out. They can be friends because they know there isn't going to be some underlying motive to the friendship. Power can otherwise make for a lonely existence.

And we know that Sun/Oracle would not cut a deal with Apple on ZFS --- the price they were asking was allegedly too high for Jobs. I'm sure Ellison's view is that business is business (I think Jobs values other things alongside: loyalty, trustworthiness, etc. He has a moral view that is not straight out of the books of Harvard business school.)
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