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Apple: Not preinstalling Flash on Macs ensures users have latest version - Page 2

post #41 of 136
10/22/10 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blullama View Post

Unfortunately. If you are afraid to install software because of security rumors, that's just fine with me.

Strawman argument. I don't think anyone's avoiding installing flash because of security flaws. Frankly, I think Flash is pretty important to have. But the fact is, Flash doesn't have a built-in updater, or an update notification system for that matter. When you have a case where installer disc images are updated once every nine months, it's going to be pretty out of date for most buyers. Apple has an updater for their software, but Adobe doesn't yet have a similar update system.

Quote:
FYI. Air desktop apps are created with Flash code.

What are examples of popular Air desktop apps?
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post #42 of 136
10/22/10 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) It’s so odd that the posters that hate Apple having any control or success are now the ones that think it should be Apple’s responsibility to inform you that Flash needs to be updated.

2) I’m always bemused by the phrase “would that be so hard” when the objection obviously isn’t an issue of difficulty, but of other considerations. “Why doesn’t Adobe include ClickToFlash with Flash? Would that be so hard?”

3) Why not come at this simple issue objectively? Would that be so hard?

I agree with most of what you said. Apple notifies you about updates on the iPhone for apps? they could do the same thing with Flash if they are so concerned about it. also on the flip side if Adobe complains about Apple actions.... then yes they NEED to provide an update vehicle for their own products!!! that was not my point in my response. There are ways for both companies to provide a solution.
Edit: I mean "would that be so hard" :-)

Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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post #43 of 136
10/22/10 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

I agree with most of what you said. Apple notifies you about updates on the iPhone for apps? they could do the same thing with Flash if they are so concerned about it. also on the flip side if Adobe complains about Apple actions.... then yes they NEED to provide an update vehicle for their own products!!! that was not my point in my response. There are ways for both companies to provide a solution.
Edit: I mean "would that be so hard" :-)

If Adobe bitches to the Feds about Flash not shipping with Macs then they need to bitch about some of the PC manufacturers for not shipping flash with some of the windows PC just to be fair.

I don't see Adobe complaining about Apple's action with the Airs. Apple is not banning flash, they're just not preinstalling it.
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post #44 of 136
10/22/10 at 10:58am
From your new Macbook Air and/or future Macs, go to this site..

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/

And move on with your life..

If you feel so strongly about Apple not shipping Flash with new Macs, and just don't want the hassle of making a few clicks in Adobe's website to install Flash yourself then go get a Windows PC that comes with Flash preinstalled.
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post #45 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by godrifle View Post

Logically inaccurate. The change ensures that new purchasers will not have any version of Flash.

Yes. This is correct. Apple is spinning it very cleverly. But they are trowing up a barrier to use/adoption for Flash. They are pulling out the stops to try and wound or even kill off Flash. Good for them.

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post #46 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:01am
Makes sense, but flash also comes with an auto updater.
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post #47 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

I agree with most of what you said. Apple notifies you about updates on the iPhone for apps? they could do the same thing with Flash if they are so concerned about it.

They are doing that with Mac App Store coming within 90 days. If you didn’t see the event On Wednesday I suggest watching it. This was really pretty slick for a desktop OS and the first truly simple way for the average user to find, install and keep an updated.

But will Apple allow plugins and codec packs and other non-apps in the Mac App Store? Imagine the percentage of Macs with an updated version of Adobe Flash compared to Windows if Apple allows it and Adobe uses it.

edit: Apple won’t allow plug-ins. Standalone apps, only. At least for now. That stinks because the most common thing install on new Macs are not standalone apps.
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post #48 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Brilliant. Love this point of view.

"Would that be so hard" is basically a straw man argument contained in one phrase.

I was just sent this clip from The Big Bang Theory. Go to 40 seconds into the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF6b9aeuUZU
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post #49 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Jobs said they would go to an open standards body the next day. He did not say that the standards committee would have it reviewed, ratified, and have it delivered on a milled aluminium platter to you the next day.

That's not what I meant. When Steve said that he'd make FaceTime an open standard, I thought they would publicly make the entire source code that Apple had compiled so far, available on the Web on the following day. The API's are still being held within Apple. The public can't download them, nor can outside companies see the code. If I remember correctly, Skype and Qik both were interested in integrating Facetime code into their mobile and non-mobile applications, yet they still don't have access to the API's.

That's what I meant by "open". I wasn't expecting a ratified standard available the following day of Steve's keynote. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Edit: Also, some posters mentioned that a prompt often comes up when Flash content can't play because of a lack of a plug in, in which they can download Flash. Those posters make sense.
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post #50 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

Everybody who NEEDS it to view their favorite websites. That's how many.

My favorite websites don't use flash!
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post #51 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:13am
Apple is never going to ban Flash from Macs. With this strategy, they're letting consumers choose to let Flash die by itself or let it live on. Will Flash ever die? Maybe. Maybe not. We won't find out for a few more years. It's up to the consumers to decide.

Talk about CHOICE which Adobe has been preaching lately. By not preinstalling Flash on Macs.. Well, Apple is letting people CHOOSE and decide whether they want Flash or not.
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post #52 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:14am
it's not that you will have to go, download latest version on java, adobe sites. it's a plan that Apple will block to use them on mac near the future. of course, they will create something alternative. but what's the point? Apple recently has done very arrogant way to change market. for consumers, it's fine. but for professional IT, it can't be acceptable. I don't like something that Apple just wants to block them because performance issue? so that's why gaming on mac is so sloppy, lagging? flash, Java need all internet browsers for 99%. so Apple does that for 1%? they make so many restrictions. I become to hate it. if they open mac os x license, then they will lose the entire market. windows will win again. this is kind of healing, satisfaction way what Apple does todays. something is wrong.

I don't know recently I am not interested in any mac apple event. I don't even watch damn quicktime special event anymore. it's was a good until 2008. I have three macs. now I think about selling all.
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post #53 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post

That's not what I meant. When Steve said that he'd make FaceTime an open standard, I thought they would publicly make the entire source code that Apple had compiled so far, available on the Web on the following day. The API's are still being held within Apple. The public can't download them, nor can outside companies see the code. If I remember correctly, Skype and Qik both were interested in integrating Facetime code into their mobile and non-mobile applications, yet they still don't have access to the API's.

A standard is a specification. Source code is an implementation. If Apple hasn't posted specifications good enough for devs to make their own implementations, then I think it's time they did. But that doesn't mean Apple needs to release source code.
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post #54 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:21am
LOL I love “the sky is falling” posts. Hey edwardryu, let me know when Apple releases their Java killer. WIll it be called Guava?
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post #55 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:22am
Too bad Oracle/Sun doesn't build a JVM for Mac OS X...not currently at least
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post #56 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

puullleezzzzeeeeee

How many will never ever bother to down load flash .

I am happy at the new html 5 coming forth to take over the whole game.


9

Probably the whole reason Apple is doing it.

I don't know if there would ever be a way to tell but it would be interesting to see the numbers of Adobe Flash by new Mac computer owners.

Adobe can probably use the numbers to figure it out and who knows maybe Steve will be right again about his open letter regarding Flash and that with HTML5 there are alternatives. Adobe wakes up.

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #57 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardryu View Post

it's not that you will have to go, download latest version on java, adobe sites. it's a plan that Apple will block to use them on mac near the future. of course, they will create something alternative. but what's the point? Apple recently has done very arrogant way to change market. for consumers, it's fine. but for professional IT, it can't be acceptable. I don't like something that Apple just wants to block them because performance issue? so that's why gaming on mac is so sloppy, lagging? flash, Java need all internet browsers for 99%. so Apple does that for 1%? they make so many restrictions. I become to hate it. if they open mac os x license, then they will lose the entire market. windows will win again. this is kind of healing, satisfaction way what Apple does todays. something is wrong.

I don't know recently I am not interested in any mac apple event. I don't even watch damn quicktime special event anymore. it's was a good until 2008. I have three macs. now I think about selling all.

How much are you selling your Macs for? What are they? If your selling it at a good deal I'm sure some of the people here would be interested in taking it off your hands and end whatever anger or indifference you have with Apple.
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post #58 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

A standard is a specification. Source code is an implementation. If Apple hasn't posted specifications good enough for devs to make their own implementations, then I think it's time they did. But that doesn't mean Apple needs to release source code.

It’s now been about 6 months. That should be enough time to get it all in order.

I assumed the purpose of making it an open standard was to finally have a video chat standard that could potentially be universal among all computing devices. I can’t imagine they reneged after the event so what could be holding it up?

edit: I can’t find a mention of FaceTime being eventually opened up. Maybe they changed their mind after seeing it was a reason people wanted the iPhone.
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post #59 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A Flash is the number one reason for crashes on the Mac platform.


What then is number two?
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post #60 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

What then is number two?

Flash also?

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post #61 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJinTX View Post

? And #2, if they bundle it into their OS, then customers expect Apple to support it..

Hrrrmmmmmm..........you can buy a Mac with Microsoft Office preinstalled. If your reasoning is correct, will Apple continue to do such a foolish thing?

"I went into the Apple Store, and they recommended all sorts of stuff that I bought directly from the Apple Store. Everything on my Mac is from Apple. Everything.

I even bought all sorts of add-ons and accesories, spending thousands of dollars!

And you won't support what you sold me?!"




C'mon. If your reasoning was accurate, then I don't think that any third-party anything would be sold on/with a Mac. But that happens every moment of every day.
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post #62 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blullama View Post

Regarding the posts about Flash and Security... Have you ever been hacked by Rogue Flash apps? How many people do you know that have been hacked by Flash apps? I never have. I don't know anyone that has. And I repair computers all the time.

This claim sounds hardly possible. Outdated (unpatched) versions of Flash, PDF Reader, Java, etc. are a treasure trove of exploits for malware authors. In fact, last year McAfee claimed that Adobe exploits would surpass Office exploits:

Quote:
In 2009, McAfee Labs saw an increase in attacks targeting client software. Due to the growing popularity of Adobe applications, McAfee Labs expects that cybercriminals will continue to target Adobe products, primarily Acrobat Reader and Flash, two of the most widely deployed applications in the world. McAfee Labs expects Adobe product exploitation will likely surpass that of Microsoft Office applications in 2010.

http://newsroom.mcafee.com/article_d...rticle_id=3607
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post #63 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnb2 View Post

Given the security issue that Flash has become, I don't find it hard to believe that this is a very pragmatic step from Apple. Why risk shipping a 1-2 revs (or more) old version on hardware, risking a Flash security exploit for a new user, rather than have the user get the latest, most-secure version from Adobe via the very simple download procedure the first time they encounter Flash content that doesn't play?

.

By this logic, Apple should ban Flash from the Mac.

Why risk users having 1-2 revs (or more) old version on hardware, risking a Flash security exploit for hundreds of millions of existing users?

After all, any preinstalled rev would be updated (or not) exactly the same as the version that a user might install. Is this security risk a pragmatic step from Apple? Given your logic, do you think Apple should ban Flash from Macs?
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post #64 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:45am
I honestly have no sympathy for Flash and Java. Bill Gates' great insight, the one that made him the richest man in the world, was that he could insert himself between hardware vendors and developers and thereby make them irrelevant and himself the powerful one. What these companies are trying to do with Java and Flash is pull a Bill Gates on the OS vendors, they are trying to be the next Microsoft, so don't be so ready to defend them. It's like Inception, layer upon layer upon layer. And people wonder why things get slower
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post #65 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

I hear that Macs will be shipped with a blank hard drive and a coupon for the latest version of Mac OS X that can be picked up at any local Apple store (while supplies last).

To paraphrase another poster, "Given the security issue that [outdated third party software] has become, I don't find it hard to believe that this is a very pragmatic step from Apple. "

It also ensures that all users have the latest and greatest version of positively everything, rather than merely having the latest version of Flash.
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post #66 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:50am
Why the complaining? Wouldn't Adobe prefer that users download Flash directly from their site? I don't remember any Windows computer I've owned coming with Flash either - nor most browsers, when I switched to Firefox on Windows XP I remember it needing to download flash again. No biggie.
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post #67 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

3) Why not come at this simple issue objectively? Would that be so hard?

It is not a matter of difficulty. There are other considerations. :LOL:
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post #68 of 136
10/22/10 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post

That's not what I meant. When Steve said that he'd make FaceTime an open standard, I thought they would publicly make the entire source code that Apple had compiled so far, available on the Web on the following day.

So you are upset that Apple didn't do something that they didn't promise to do and isn't typically what they do anyway? Open Standard <> Open Source.

Quote:
That's what I meant by "open". I wasn't expecting a ratified standard available the following day of Steve's keynote. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

That's not misunderstanding...that's projecting a completely different action vs what Steve said.

He's not pony boy and Apple isn't Sun. There's a reason that Sun is now owned by Oracle...
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post #69 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Its now been about 6 months. That should be enough time to get it all in order.

I assumed the purpose of making it an open standard was to finally have a video chat standard that could potentially be universal among all computing devices. I cant imagine they reneged after the event so what could be holding it up?

edit: I cant find a mention of FaceTime being eventually opened up. Maybe they changed their mind after seeing it was a reason people wanted the iPhone.

I haven't heard of FaceTime becoming a primary driver for iPhone 4 purchases. I too can't find any mention of it becoming an open standard on Apple's site. Articles dating to June are the last I find of it.

It's good they finally ported it to Macs, the built-in camera didn't seem to have much of a use before.
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post #70 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I haven't heard of FaceTime becoming a primary driver for iPhone 4 purchases.

Maybe not yet, but Apple seems to be driving hard on this one. They must see something in it and they're trying to get all of their ducks in a row.

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post #71 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:18pm
"For its part, Adobe fired back and said that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to its software, but are instead the fault of Apple's operating system."

That is such a load of crap. I have a relative who works at Adobe on desktop Flash player. This relative doesn't have a very high opinion of Flash player's stability on OS X. The recommendation I got was that you run nothing else on that browser, or at least nothing else that you care about keeping, if you plan on playing any Flash content on OS X.
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post #72 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:23pm
Still curious if Safari on MBA will show broken Flash not installed icon, allow a prompt to install the plugin or does it just ignore the content and show white space like iPad.

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post #73 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I haven't heard of FaceTime becoming a primary driver for iPhone 4 purchases. I too can't find any mention of it becoming an open standard on Apple's site. Articles dating to June are the last I find of it.

It's good they finally ported it to Macs, the built-in camera didn't seem to have much of a use before.

I don’t know if that is the primary driver, but anecdotally it seems to me that many toot this feature to me. I am actually quite sick of having people call me to test this feature or use it when a voice conversation is sufficient. But I’m all about efficiency so I get annoyed when people call when an IM would work better.

Also, if you look at Apple’s site for the iPhone the first feature listed in every area appears to be FaceTime related. Even on the HW design page they mention FaceTime 3 times in relation to the camera, mic/speaker, and processor.

•

http://www.apple.com/iphone/
• http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/
• http://www.apple.com/iphone/design/
• http://www.apple.com/iphone/ios4/
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post #74 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

AGREED! If that is their logic then why install any software? You have to "update" just about everything after a fresh install of Snow Leopard....this is just really lame Apple....

No, your failure to comprehend is lame. This is about giving users the choice of installing Flash, and ensuring that if they do they have the latest version. Apple issuing the buggier old release the other month was a PR disaster.

Besides, Flash is a steaming pile, any action which reduces it's prevalence is a good thing.
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post #75 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I honestly have no sympathy for Flash and Java. Bill Gates' great insight, the one that made him the richest man in the world, was that he could insert himself between hardware vendors and developers and thereby make them irrelevant and himself the powerful one. What these companies are trying to do with Java and Flash is pull a Bill Gates on the OS vendors, they are trying to be the next Microsoft, so don't be so ready to defend them. It's like Inception, layer upon layer upon layer. And people wonder why things get slower

Something that solipsism jokingly mentioned earler about Oracle's "replacement" for Java brought up a serious thought of mine: What can Java do that HTML5 can't? Couldn't the National Weather Service use HTML5, instead of Java, to enable radar animations? I can't think of any other top-tier legitimate sites that use Java on a mass scale; Java's a pretty pathetic plugin, when you think about it. Right now, Java and Flash are needed to play some media, but in time, perhaps that could be largely, if not entirely, eliminated with HTML5 and/or browser sniffing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drow_Swordsman View Post

I don't remember any Windows computer I've owned coming with Flash either - nor most browsers, when I switched to Firefox on Windows XP I remember it needing to download flash again. No biggie.

Internet Explorer needs a different version of Flash than the Firefox/Chrome version, to account for ActiveX. That said, I recommend installing Chrome instead of Firefox. Chrome now includes built-in Flash and PDF viewing, with no additional downloads required. I'd recommend the browser for reasons other than Flash and PDF integration, but that's another story....

Quote:
Originally Posted by sessamoid View Post

"For its part, Adobe fired back and said that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to its software, but are instead the fault of Apple's operating system."

That is such a load of crap. I have a relative who works at Adobe on desktop Flash player. This relative doesn't have a very high opinion of Flash player's stability on OS X. The recommendation I got was that you run nothing else on that browser, or at least nothing else that you care about keeping, if you plan on playing any Flash content on OS X.

Or just install ClickToFlash, which is what I did with my mom's computer about a month ago. OK, so I installed it mainly to preserve CPU and RAM from being used on Flash ads, but there have been far fewer Safari crashes since...
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post #76 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I dont know if that is the primary driver, but anecdotally it seems to me that many toot this feature to me. I am actually quite sick of having people call me to test this feature or use it when a voice conversation is sufficient. But Im all about efficiency so I get annoyed when people call when an IM would work better.

I hate getting voice calls when email does better. I can see FT being useful, but I haven't needed it just yet. I think it really needs to spread beyond just the Apple ecosystem to be useful. But putting it on the Macs is an important step.
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post #77 of 136
10/22/10 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Hrrrmmmmmm..........you can buy a Mac with Microsoft Office preinstalled. If your reasoning is correct, will Apple continue to do such a foolish thing?

"I went into the Apple Store, and they recommended all sorts of stuff that I bought directly from the Apple Store. Everything on my Mac is from Apple. Everything.

I even bought all sorts of add-ons and accesories, spending thousands of dollars!

And you won't support what you sold me?!"




C'mon. If your reasoning was accurate, then I don't think that any third-party anything would be sold on/with a Mac. But that happens every moment of every day.

The difference is they are not paying extra or having their computer pre-configured to have a flash plug-in. The act of them selecting to purchase and pre-install Office I believe cements it in their brain that Apple is not responsible for it. Of course I will concede that
there are still probably some people who want apple to troubleshoot their MS Office issues, but obviously that isn't going to happen. For the most part though, I think most people know to contact MS for their office support.

Flash on the other hand is free for anyone who chooses to use it, and is not a pre-install option. Some users think it is part of the Core OS since up til now it has come on the computer. Or at the very least when they have issues with it, it may not be clear to them that it is an Adobe issue as opposed to Apple.

I think this move just further clarifies who is responsible for what. With the transition to HTML5, most users will never even miss flash, and the few who do can easily go get it for free.
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post #78 of 136
10/22/10 at 1:04pm
The nerdocracy is having another cow. How predictable.

1. With Flash pre-installed most users would never bother or even think to update it. There are a really big number of people (and I know a bunch personally) who never upgrade their machine's software. They use what came out of the box and that's it, forever, until they buy a new box. So these people would be WAY behind on Flash updates. This is how normal users act.

2. If Flash is important to some people, they will download it and install it when they get that "plugin missing" icon. But that may be it too. They'll never update again. This is how normal users act.
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post #79 of 136
10/22/10 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardryu View Post

it's not that you will have to go, download latest version on java, adobe sites. it's a plan that Apple will block to use them on mac near the future. of course, they will create something alternative. but what's the point? Apple recently has done very arrogant way to change market. for consumers, it's fine. but for professional IT, it can't be acceptable. I don't like something that Apple just wants to block them because performance issue? so that's why gaming on mac is so sloppy, lagging? flash, Java need all internet browsers for 99%. so Apple does that for 1%? they make so many restrictions. I become to hate it. if they open mac os x license, then they will lose the entire market. windows will win again. this is kind of healing, satisfaction way what Apple does todays. something is wrong.

I don't know recently I am not interested in any mac apple event. I don't even watch damn quicktime special event anymore. it's was a good until 2008. I have three macs. now I think about selling all.

It sounds like you should. You have alot of frustration and this would likely eliminate it. And, Macs have great resale value, so you should get alot for them.
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post #80 of 136
10/22/10 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) So are the same people that complained that Apple shipped Snow Leopard discs with a slightly outdated version of Adobe Flash the ones that are complaining about having to install Adobe Flash manually, like they would have had to do anyway to get the safest version?

2) If Apple should be forced to include Adobe Flash, then Adobe should be forced to include ClickToFlash.




1) QUickTime is an Apple product that they take responsibility for supporting.

2) QuickTime is part of Mac OS X. You cant remove it. If you are only referring to the player, then you are really saying that Apples included video playback app that is part of Mac OS X shouldnt be included if a 3rd-party plug-in isnt included. Doesnt make much sense.

Not to mention when you set up a new Mac out of the Box they always recommend you run the Apple Software Updater, which will automatically find all the needed updates for QuickTime....

What else ya got?
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