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Israel separates from Palestinians but they don't like it

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
How will they kill Israelis now, when they can't cross the border ?... no wonder they're pissed off...
[quote]
Ben-Eliezer tours security fence construction site
By Amos Harel, Jalal Bana and Nadav Shragai, Ha'aretz Correspondents and Agencies



A red and green fence, marking the place where a 130 km-long barrier will be erected by Israel on Sunday.
(Photo: AP)


Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer toured the site where construction got underway Sunday on a security fence along the border with the West Bank in an effort to hinder violent attacks by Palestinian militants in Israel.

"Every day that passes without a security fence is likely to cost more lives," Israel Radio quoted Ben-Eliezer as saying at the groundbreaking ceremony.

Palestinian Cabinet Minister Saeb Erekat accused Israel of erecting the fence in order to divide Palestinian territories into small cantons and "start a new apartheid system which is worse than what happened in South Africa."

At Sunday's cabinet meeting in Jerusalem, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced that the security cabinet would meet Wednesday to discuss the construction of the security fence.

The electronically monitored fence is to initially measure 130 kilometers, and the cost of each kilometer is estimated at $1 million.

Bulldozers were already in place at the Salem checkpoint north of Jenin where construction commenced Sunday after injunctions appropriating land in the area were issued last Thursday.

At the cabinet meeting, there was a sharp exchange of words between Industry and Trade Minister Dalia Itzik, one of the main proponents of the security fence, and National Religious Party chairman Effi Eitam.

"You are being arrogant," Eitam told Itzik, "because this fence of yours is being built by your contractor - the defense minister. The meaning of the fence is a return to the 1967 borders, and the establishment of a national boundary."

Itzik replied that, "you entered politics like some sort of Messiah, but we still have not heard any suggestion from you about how to stop terrorists entering Israel. The choice is a simple one: either we build a fence, or we continue to endanger the lives of Israelis."

Fence to run from Kfar Kassem to Salem
The fence will run from the Salem checkpoint in the north to Kfar Kassem in the south. Another stretch of fence is planned for the Jerusalem area. The project will be coordinated by Colonel Netzach Meshiach under the supervision of Defense Ministry Director-General Amos Yaron.

"[The fence] will provide a defensive answer to the...infiltration of terrorists from Judea and Samaria into communities in Israel," Yaron told Israel Radio on Sunday morning.

Defense sources welcomed the begining of work on the project. Several sources said, however, that the fence would already have been close to completion had Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer shown more interest in the project at an earlier stage.

Eitam says that the cabinet has not held a serious discussion on the matter, and that the defense establishment has hidden the planned route of the fence from the ministers and the public.

Right-wing Moledet faction chairman Binyamin Elon, in an interview Sunday to Army Radio, accused Sharon of deceiving the government and the Israeli people by building a fence. "He (Sharon) has joined the defeatists of the left and put an end to the possibility of our party returning to the government."

"The building of the fence is a fraud and a lie. [Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon has repeatedly said that there won't be a fence," Elon told Army Radio Sunday.

"The unity government should be dismantled if it deceives the nation by building the security fence," Elon added.

Elon compared the planned fence with the security fence built in Lebanon two years ago. "The entire northern border is a border not with a state, but with a terror organization."

Elon objected to the construction of the fence as a security measure. "You want a fence? Fence Jenin in, fence Nablus in. You want to prevent entrance of terrorists? Attack the enemy. Don't build a fence which cuts Israel in two."

Cabinet minister Yitzhak Levy of the National Religious Party on Sunday called the barrier "a political fence" that could set a de facto border.

Sharon's government said continuing Palestinian attacks against Israelis made the fence necessary, but the Palestinian Authority has criticized its construction, saying parts of it will lie on Palestinian-controlled land and it will further restrict the Palestinians' already limited freedom of movement.

The construction is to begin the day after a firefight near the Jewish settlement of Dugit in the northern Gaza Strip, which killed two Israeli soldiers and at least one Palestinian.

Opposition also appears to be mounting among Israeli Arabs to building the separation fence between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Arabs who live close to the Green Line between Israel and the territories voice the strongest opposition to the fence.

After meeting Saturday in Umm al-Fahm, the Supreme Monitoring Committee for Arab Affairs in Israel announced its official opposition to the separation fence. The committee's statement said the fence would be mainly to "fortify Israel's conquest and sovereignty in the occupied territories."

The committee also said that under the current plan the fence would run through Arab towns and villages in regions like the Triangle and Wadi Ara. Also, the committee objects to possible expropriation of hundreds of dunams of land from Arab owners.

The committee said the fence "is an attempt to impose a reality of conquest on the Palestinian people." It has decided to establish a special public panel to monitor matters connected to the building of the fence in various regions where it is to be erected.

Egyptian FM: Only peace can guarantee Israel's security
Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher reacted coolly Saturday to Israel's plans to erect a barrier along parts of its border with the West Bank, saying only peace can guarantee Israel's security.

"Building peace would realize Israeli security more than building this wall does," Maher told reporters. He also cautioned Israel against sending any signal with the fence that it was appropriating land Palestinians claim.

"If Israel were building a fence along the 1967 borders, then this would be an acknowledgment that the borders of Israel and the borders of a Palestinian state are known. But if the aim was to expand [Israel's territory], then this is rejected," Maher said.

According to the report, residents of the Gilboa area, north of the West Bank, were upset that the fence as originally planned would not reach them, but Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer's office said Saturday that the fence would be extended the necessary 25 kilometers to do so.


<a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=176869&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">Original is here</a>
<hr></blockquote>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #2 of 18
But what, pray tell, is to protect the Palestinians from state-sponsored terrorism?

More and more Israeli settlements are being placed and expanded in the West Bank and Gaza, in defiance with the Oslo accords and international consensus. It isn't like there is a lack of space in 1967-border Israel by any means. This is ethnic cleansing.

Building a fence at the '67 border may be a nice clear economic incentive not to expand. It may act as a terrorism deterrent, and an imperialism deterrent. Figures though, that they're appropriating Palestinian land to build the Israeli fence.


I wonder if Israeli bulldozers can get through the fence...

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: MozillaMan ]</p>
"If evolution is outlawed, only the outlaws will evolve."
-Jello Biafra
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"If evolution is outlawed, only the outlaws will evolve."
-Jello Biafra
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post #3 of 18
When things are not going you own way, limiting your terroist activitied, throw the word 'apartheid' around a lot, especially in front of cameras and reporters, even if there is no corrilation. That way, you get the simple-minded bleeding heart nimrods in other nations to do your dirty work.

Are the Palestinians that stupid? The first step in forming your own state is to define your BORDERS! Duh.
post #4 of 18
[quote]but the Palestinian Authority has criticized its construction, saying parts of it will lie on Palestinian-controlled land and it will further restrict the Palestinians' already limited freedom of movement.<hr></blockquote>

I think that's the gripe, rashumon.

Now, if the fence divides parts of Palestinian territory and makes them inaccessible from one point to the other then that is a concern that should most certainly be addressed. Other than that, build a fence at the pre-1967 borders and put a UN force on it with orders to kill all armed folks approaching it (Israeli and Palestinian) and we might be getting onto something good.

A fence is a good thing, though, anything to separate the children is encouraged.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #5 of 18
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

A "security" fence?

"Apartheid"?


Wow. I wonder if the Palestinians will hire Snake Plissken to bring their incarcerated brothers home. Or if the Israeli's will suddenly feel safe once it's errected.

This whole thing has become laughably pathetic. Just pathetic.

Fvck em both. If they want to slaughter each other, at this point, I say let 'em. Maybe one day they'll grow tired of the one-upmanship and rhetoric and dead people litering their streets.
Aldo is watching....
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Aldo is watching....
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post #6 of 18
The sad part is, it's really starting to look like apartheid. Not only do Palestinians not have citizenship in the country they were born and live in, they are taxed heavily in Jerusalem while Israelis wanting to move in there actually get tax breaks and other economic incentives.

There are economic incentives for settling in the Occupied Territories as well. These aren't even native Israelis: these are Jewish people from America and from elsewhere around the world who are moved into these ever-expanding enclaves in an attempt to divide and "squeeze" the Palestinians out of their land. Here is an excellent illustration of what is going on:

Every few months, they expand their settlements by another several hundred feet. You can see Israel's ultimate designs for the occupied territories. It goes without saying.
"If evolution is outlawed, only the outlaws will evolve."
-Jello Biafra
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"If evolution is outlawed, only the outlaws will evolve."
-Jello Biafra
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post #7 of 18
i think a fence is a ridiculous idea. i can't remember who said it, but i remember a quote that went like, "build a ten foot wall and they'll build an 11' ladder." even with guards, there are going to b week points. hayt will find a way to break thru (on both sydes).

the two warring peoples should just sit down and read a book by chuck darwin. there ain't no god. he died a long time ago. when they abandon their silly musings, and insane thots of virgins in the afterlife and other heaven, or heaven-like places, then they'll get along. god didn' make man, man mayd god.
post #8 of 18
Heheh,

Well, when all those Israel lovers all say its a bad idea, I know its the correct decision.
Thanks for the beautiful words, MozillaMan. You forgot to add Nazi, and imperialists, etc. into the mix. I guess youre just saving them for your next post.


Ps. Your so called Palestinians have Jordanian citizenships. And what exactly are they taxed on by Israel?

mika.

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #9 of 18
What is all this about, Israeli expansionist lobbies in the Israeli government?

from the article:

At the cabinet meeting, there was a sharp exchange of words between Industry and Trade Minister Dalia Itzik, one of the main proponents of the security fence, and National Religious Party chairman Effi Eitam.

"You are being arrogant," Eitam told Itzik, "because this fence of yours is being built by your contractor - the defense minister. The meaning of the fence is a return to the 1967 borders, and the establishment of a national boundary."


Does this Eitam guy not want Israel to have set borders? And if not.... why?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #10 of 18
hmm,...

<a href="http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716491575" target="_blank">http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716491575</a>

mika.
post #11 of 18
[quote]from article: A common term circulating among journalists, left-wing intellectuals in Europe and at the UN is "illegal occupation." This abstraction, favored by the likes of UN Human Rights Commissioner Mary Robinson, is somehow supposed to do the miracle of legalizing the mass murder of Jews in Israel by Muslim terrorist organizations. (emphasis mine)<hr></blockquote>

Clearly a very rational and unbiased publication you're touting there PC Killa. You know, the more posts of yours I read (I lurk in these Israel / Palestine threads a lot) the more you remind me of those blow-hard political pundits on CNN. Always accusing people of using rhetoric, then turning around and using it yourself. Always convinced that your arguments have no flaws....

A couple posts back you were implying that MozillaMan was using bogus rhetoric, and then you quote an article that claims the Israeli's are being systematically mass-murdered (by random terrorist bombers who kill a half-dozen people at a time, including themselves). Yah, OK.

You're transparent as glass.

The holocaust is over. It has been over for more than 50 years. There is no "new holocaust", so don't imply there is. The Israeli government and those who continually push further into Palestinian neighborhoods are 50% to blame for the deaths of their fellow citizens - period. The arrogance of Israeli citizens / their jewish supporters is really putrid sometimes. It's like because of what happened in the 1940's, you can never be in the wrong, can never be questioned, can never be accused of being anything but a victim.

ISRAEL IS NO LONGER "THE VICTIM" - YOUR GOVERNMENT AND YOUR PEOPLE HAVE A BIG HAND IN WHAT IS HAPPENING WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT.

Get that through your head, OK?

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
Aldo is watching....
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Aldo is watching....
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post #12 of 18
:eek: We have an anti-semite among us. Kill him

I agree with you (almost) completly.

Here is a "couch-potato-if-I-was-Prez-I-would" idea:

Build the fence at the pre67 boarder. Arm it with mines and heat seeking missiles and give every Israeli on the "wrong" side one week to move away. Put Israel under the NATO umbrella for ten years and promise not to ever help them after that.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #13 of 18
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong> :eek: We have an anti-semite among us. Kill him

I agree with you (almost) completly.

Here is a "couch-potato-if-I-was-Prez-I-would" idea:

Build the fence at the pre67 boarder. Arm it with mines and heat seeking missiles and give every Israeli on the "wrong" side one week to move away. Put Israel under the NATO umbrella for ten years and promise not to ever help them after that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That has got to be the stupidest thing I have read in a long time. "We will help you but after 10 years you are on your own, sorry chaps, shalom and all that."

Meanwhile on the Arab side you can just hear the leaders, "10 years, lets prepare now."

History shows that Israel is not in a nice neighborhood, and their neighbors don't just want what is theirs, they want everything else too. Give them this tempting of a target and they will wait for the 10 years to be up and have another go at Israel, without Americas support you will have a Revelation type endgame. Only God Himself could defend them from such an attack. :eek:
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #14 of 18
Moogs:

quote
..you can never be in the wrong, can never be questioned, can never be accused of being anything but a victim.

Havent been following the news for the last 20 years have you? And if you wish to add your name to the list to those using "Apartheid" as legitimate rhetoric here, please dont hold back. Ive already learned my lessons, you wont disappoint me in the least

The faster they build this fence the faster the Arab problem will go away. They are a parasitic cancer in truest sense of the word. And its about time Israel cuts off their oxygen. Hows that for being politically correct. ;]


Anders:

quote
..Put Israel under the NATO umbrella for ten years and promise not to ever help them after that.

Wow. 10 years? You really think it will take that long for the Arabs to come up to speed? You dont give them much credit do you?


mika.

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #15 of 18
[edit: This was originally for Noah but the "evil never change" part goes for Mika as well]

Well I think I made it clear that it wasn´t something I meant seriously. My signature shouldn´t be understood like when I am indicating that I am not seriously in reality I am.

But here is what I meant about the ten years: Israel have ten years to make good friends with it neighbours. Ten years without boarder disputes (too heavily armed by NATO) and without suiside bombs and military actions to keep fueling the fire.

And I really can´t subscribe to the idea "one time evil, always evil" if you would ever believe in the idea of labelling the entire populations of &gt;10 countries as "evil". Elias says that we should understand everything hapening in the social reality as figurations. As relationships between different players. If Israel changed its actions and rhetoric it could actually change the hostile attitude against it. The only occations where I have to say that Elias is definetly wrong is hearing people saying "people and countries never change".Those people never change their arguments even if they are proven wrong My grrandmother still believe that "the germans" are evil <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #16 of 18
You really think a heavily armed border is the answer? What happened to diplomacy? I take back what i said earlier. This is not going to work. But not for the reasons in this thread. It's for the same reasons the Berlin wall didn't work. The palistinians think they have it bad now? Wait till they have to fend for themselves without being under an umbrella.
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 
You guys are completely missing the point... the basic consideration for building the wall is that it will stop or substantially make it harder for suicide bombers to infiltrate into Israel and kill civilians. this has been proven to be effective in Gaza where we have had a wall for a long time now and guess how many bombers came out of there since the fighting started ..... None !.
The effect of this would be that Arafat would lose his only effective weapon against israelis.. once that happens He will have to compromise and return to negotiations and by that force the Israeli side to compromise as well.
This wall is basically forcing PEACE down the Palestinians and Israelis throats.... it would have been built anyway once a final settlement have been achieved... this is simple fast tracking this process.

Its obvious that Arafat and others in the PA have chosen to use terror as a tactical weapon in their national struggle , this wall is a tool for defeating this terror and making both ides safer.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

I think that's the gripe, rashumon.

Now, if the fence divides parts of Palestinian territory and makes them inaccessible from one point to the other then that is a concern that should most certainly be addressed. Other than that, build a fence at the pre-1967 borders and put a UN force on it with orders to kill all armed folks approaching it (Israeli and Palestinian) and we might be getting onto something good.

A fence is a good thing, though, anything to separate the children is encouraged.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yes i also think that its a good idea... and re your point .. this fence will broadly run along the 67 borders it has no capacity to make things more difficult to the Palestinians other then the fact it would prevent them from crossing into Israel but it wont divide palestinian land into bits .. as some of the PA spokesmen were saying in that article...it will actually help re define the west bank as Palestinian land hence why all those right wing Israelis are against it

[quote]<strong>Does this Eitam guy not want Israel to have set borders? And if not.... why? <hr></blockquote></strong>

This Eitam guy is the head of a right wing nationalist party associated with the settlers movement, he will oppose anything that will ( as they see it ) lose Israel its historical lands of Judea and Symaria but his pull is minimal re political power his party is a small one and polls show that around 80% of Israelis support separation and a fence and a Palestinian state beyond that fence...

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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