or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Android Development: The App Makers Still Cannot Make Money
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Android Development: The App Makers Still Cannot Make Money

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
Great article:


Quote:
a quote by developer Steve Demeter, who created Trism for the iPhone, "Do I want to be spending 6 months to write the game, and another 6 months making if compatible? If I had Trism available for Android, and there are 50 Android devices and every time one of them crashes (the users) contact me, do I want that?"



http://www.ismashphone.com/2010/10/a...ll-suffer.html
post #2 of 32
i think this is the real problem about Android, so many companies and different telephone models make developing apps a pain in the a**.
Clearly is easier for a developer to make apps for a phone like the iphone where he/she knows that if the game works correctly in his developing and testing phone it will work the same way in other phones.
I usually have to deal with compatibility problems because i am also a developer and trying to make an application that works in windows, MAC and sometimes linux is just crazy.
post #3 of 32
When people who don't develop for Android complain about fragmentation and people who do develop for Android say it's not a problem, what does that tell you?

Look how many desktop versions of an OS there are and how many kernel extensions, peripherals etc you get to change the system configuration. It doesn't put people off developing for those. So long as the frameworks you use remain the same between them, there's no problem.
post #4 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

When people who don't develop for Android complain about fragmentation and people who do develop for Android say it's not a problem, what does that tell you?

Look how many desktop versions of an OS there are and how many kernel extensions, peripherals etc you get to change the system configuration. It doesn't put people off developing for those. So long as the frameworks you use remain the same between them, there's no problem.

There ARE a lot of Android developers complaining about fragmentation AND other issues like payments, purchase choices, the fact that paid Apps for Android Are Only Available in 32 countries, etc.


App Developers Not Happy With Android

http://gigaom.com/2009/11/29/android...ers-not-happy/


Who & Whats to Blame for Developer Woes
  • Developers are concerned that Google Checkout contributes to their low download volumes.
  • 43 percent feel that they would sell more apps if Android used a carrier billing or another simpler billing system.
  • 82 percent of those surveyed feel that the design of the Android Marketplace makes it difficult for apps to be noticed.
  • 68 percent of those surveyed are somewhat or not likely to put further work into their apps, compared with when they first released their app.



Android developer on Slashdot detailing the Android "fragmentation"

http://apps.ycombinator.com/item?id=1397941

"Android Tools Are Horrendous, OS Is Hideous," FB iPhone Dev Joe Hewitt Tweets

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1633708
post #5 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

When people who don't develop for Android complain about fragmentation and people who do develop for Android say it's not a problem, what does that tell you?

Look how many desktop versions of an OS there are and how many kernel extensions, peripherals etc you get to change the system configuration. It doesn't put people off developing for those. So long as the frameworks you use remain the same between them, there's no problem.

I don't think desktop OS variants are a reasonable point of comparison. Touch handset hardware/software integration is far more critical to the user experience than changing up peripherals or adding extensions to Windows or OS X.

I also wonder if "developers complaining" is even a very good metric of the problem. At the moment Android is enjoying a very steep growth curve, I would argue largely fueled by a general transition to smart phones by average buyers looking to upgrade their old feature or dumb phones. These are users with no prior experience with a smart phone of any description, and as such probably aren't very alert to compatibility problems. They regard any such as inevitable or just how these phones are.

So for the time being Android devs can be pretty casual about fragmentation without paying much of a penalty, as along as most of their stuff works most of the time, more or less (and it certainly doesn't hurt that most Android apps are free).

However, as more people get used to having smart phones this may be an issues for the overall Android market at some point. I don't think most people would be OK with Windows apps that behave erratically or not at all, and if it happened frequently enough it would have a bearing on how they felt about the platform. Critically, for the "this is Windows all over again" crowd, there isn't the hardware price differential to keep people using a less performative platform, if the options are clear and readily available.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #6 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

There ARE a lot of Android developers complaining about fragmentation AND other issues like payments, purchase choices, the fact that paid Apps for Android Are Only Available in 32 countries, etc.

App Developers Not Happy With Android

http://gigaom.com/2009/11/29/android...ers-not-happy/

Survey of 30 developers. Add the two at the end of your post = 32 developers. I wouldn't call that lots. Android has 100,000 apps so the best information you have to go with these stats is that 0.032% of developers have some sort of issues developing for Android. I'm sure you could find 32 developers with similar issues developing for iOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

  • Developers are concerned that Google Checkout contributes to their low download volumes.
  • 43 percent feel that they would sell more apps if Android used a carrier billing or another simpler billing system.
  • 82 percent of those surveyed feel that the design of the Android Marketplace makes it difficult for apps to be noticed.
  • 68 percent of those surveyed are somewhat or not likely to put further work into their apps, compared with when they first released their app.

The App Store marketplace is difficult to find apps too and the last item could be said about anything.

If developing for Android is such a pain, developers will stop building apps and we won't see much more than 100k apps. Time will reveal all.
post #7 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Survey of 30 developers. Add the two at the end of your post = 32 developers. I wouldn't call that lots. Android has 100,000 apps so the best information you have to go with these stats is that 0.032% of developers have some sort of issues developing for Android. I'm sure you could find 32 developers with similar issues developing for iOS.


No need to project some sort of a "fair and balanced" stance on this issue.


Fact #1: there are LOTS of people complaining about this issue.

Fact #2: 99.999999999% of Android app developers are not making money.
-App market is crap
-Payments suck
-Piracy/app cracking
-Google=free mindset. android users ARE NOT Buying apps.
-Google does not care.






dozens of people complaining about android fragmentation and other issues.

http://apps.ycombinator.com/item?id=1397941


Read 500+ comments, mostly negative comments about Android (fragmentation, etc.)

http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl...4&cid=32426078

575+ comments, mostly negative comments about Android fragmentation, crappy OS/device/marketplace, etc.

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/...the_so_called/



People not happy about the Android marketplace. App cracking, piracy, multiple app stores.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/28/and...-on-the-fritz/
post #8 of 32
Thread Starter 
here's one comment from an Android developer from one of the links i posted.


Quote:
Yep. I used to work as a J2ME porter; this sounds exactly like what the author is describing. Hundreds of phones, each one with a different screen size, each one with radically different performance and memory, each one with a different bug somewhere in the framework. For most of these problems, the only way to make your app work across the majority of devices is to buy each and every one of them.

You are completely right that Google's control over the platform could curb this. They could enforce it easily by restricting the Android trademark and marketplace. They could have enforced hardware acceleration and minimum memory requirements per resolution (and not just for games, but to make a snappy UI that competes with the iPhone.) Unfortunately they just don't care. The more this goes on, the more I think they aren't really smartphones at all; they are just the new shitty feature-phones to replace J2ME.

I am not looking forward to doing Android development. They still don't allow Canadian merchants for undisclosed reasons so my decision is kind of made for me right now; maybe they should keep it this way.
post #9 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

here's one comment from an Android developer from one of the links i posted.

The sentence "I am not looking forward to doing Android development" suggests he's one of the many non-Android developers fearful of how bad the situation is but is only going by how it's portrayed.

The fact that apps even work across vastly different screen sizes is an improvement over iOS, which just pixel-doubles iPhone apps on the iPad and blocks iPad apps from the iPhone. There are just 10,000 iPad apps and although it runs iPhone apps, like I say they are pixel-doubled.

If you buy an Android app, at least it's designed to buy once and work on anything. Even if it doesn't work right every time, at least they let you do it.
post #10 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The sentence "I am not looking forward to doing Android development" suggests he's one of the many non-Android developers fearful of how bad the situation is but is only going by how it's portrayed.

The fact that apps even work across vastly different screen sizes is an improvement over iOS, which just pixel-doubles iPhone apps on the iPad and blocks iPad apps from the iPhone. There are just 10,000 iPad apps and although it runs iPhone apps, like I say they are pixel-doubled.

If you buy an Android app, at least it's designed to buy once and work on anything. Even if it doesn't work right every time, at least they let you do it.


ROFL ok now i know you're just trolling
post #11 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldon25 View Post

I usually have to deal with compatibility problems because i am also a developer and trying to make an application that works in windows, MAC and sometimes linux is just crazy.

design patterns will help in the porting effort.
post #12 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

ROFL ok now i know you're just trolling

Ok so they have the same stance as Apple for cross-device apps:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...ility-question

If anything, this is where their fragmentation is going to become an issue because the tablets won't sell in nearly as large a volume from individual manufacturers so they will get far less software support.
post #13 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Ok so they have the same stance as Apple for cross-device apps:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...ility-question

If anything, this is where their fragmentation is going to become an issue because the tablets won't sell in nearly as large a volume from individual manufacturers so they will get far less software support.

Android tablets are not going to be able to run Android (phone) apps? WOW.
post #14 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

Android tablets are not going to be able to run Android (phone) apps? WOW.

It's not that far fetched, after all we do run desktop systems that scale from 1024 x 768 to 2560 x 1440 and beyond and apps don't have to be specifically compiled for both. There's no real reason why they can't use a scalable UI, even if it means bundling a couple of UI files in each app.
post #15 of 32
It's not like there isn't precedent for many devices, one OS. Like... the Mac computer you are reading this on. Or Windows. Or linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, etc. In fact, having a dynamic, scalable UI is an advantage. It allows me to run Chrome on an 800x480 screen right now, or on my 1680x1050 monitor on me desk, or at 1440x900 on my MBP.

And being linux based, I would think Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) would be trivial. The libraries necessary were written over a decade ago.

Quote:
I usually have to deal with compatibility problems because i am also a developer and trying to make an application that works in windows, MAC and sometimes linux is just crazy.

I can imagine that would be one heck of a task. I'm amazed by developers of software like Firefox, Chrome, VLC, Transmission, MPlayer, Open Office, AbiWord, Maya, etc, at how well their teams handle the various platforms, toolkits, libraries etc. But Android is one toolkit, and one OS, so I'm not sure where the comparison is going(?).

Quote:
ROFL ok now i know you're just trolling

Yes, the global forum moderator, who has been here at least 3 years longer than you, is a troll.
post #16 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R View Post

Yes, the global forum moderator, who has been here at least 3 years longer than you, is a troll.

I think it's because I occasionally try to discount some his many negative threads and posts about Android/Google:

Android Development: The App Makers Still Cannot Make Money
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=114183

NYTimes: SECURITY ALERT: Android App Forwards Private Text Messages
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=114219

DEVELOPERS BEHOLD!!! .....the OPEN Android Architecture.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=113950

Google in Big trouble in China
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=114056

"Google's revenue from Android = ZERO"
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...8&postcount=22

Signature: ANDROID SECURITY ALERT: Android wallpaper app that steals your data was downloaded by millions
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...theft_app.html

Android apps caught covertly sending GPS data to advertisers
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=113506

Google scrambling to revrse shrinking China market share
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=113186

Facebook iPhone Dev: The more I work with Android the more it reminds me of Windows.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=112480

"wouldn't surprise me, the typical Android users are pimple-faced ugly geeks wearing braces."
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...8&postcount=39

Android users cant get laid: iPhone owners have sex 2x than Android users
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=112060

Nasty and Expensive SMS-sending Android Trojan reported
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=112042

Google now admits to being in talks with Verizon. GOOGLE = EVIL.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=111974

"admit to being a troll" - to some talking positively about Android
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=173

"Android is insecure for the same reason Windows is insecure.
Android = Windows of mobile."
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...8&postcount=44

"News to DEVELOPERS:
Android users are cheap Penny Pinching FreeLoaders. THEY DONT BUY APPS.
Good luck wasting your time developing and selling your apps to these people."
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...53#post1687253

Skyagent: potentially-rogue binary present on ALL HTC EVO 4G
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=111236

Wallstreet: Google is a one trick pony. lost $58 Billion in stock value.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=111180

AT&T bans non-Market Android apps due to security concerns
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=111063

Google bows down to China. Removes redirect. Is Google evil and gutless?
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110963

Google: We will delete your Android Apps
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110872

Android phones should not be allowed in the Enterprise
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110862

Report: A fifth of Android apps expose private data
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110770

Report confirms Google Wi-Fi code collected UNAUTHORIZED PERSONAL DATA
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110354

Now Everyone's Cutting Their Google Estimates -- No Wonder The Stock Has Tanked
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110495

There might be a trend in there somewhere . Everyone's entitled to their opinion of course, I just feel that people are trying too hard to keep Google's efforts down because they took a lot of their ideas from Apple without crediting them for it and now hope to gain from it at Apple's expense.

Like I've said before though, Apple doesn't do high volume because they don't lower their prices to hit that volumes of consumers so the alternative is that Microsoft, RIM, Nokia step in to take that place and dominate. I'd rather it was Google than anyone else - they do need to stop taking some cheap marketing shots at Apple but if they are evil, they are the lesser of 4 or more evils.

They consistently push people to iPhone and Android development, they have eliminated Windows from their offices, they make improvements to open source code and back open source movements and industry standards. Google and Apple would make better friends than enemies. If anything, their arguments seem like a smokescreen to keep the FTC out of the picture.

Ultimately, they will come to the realisation that both systems have to co-exist and have their respective flaws.
post #17 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R View Post

Yes, the global forum moderator, who has been here at least 3 years longer than you, is a troll.



That's one of the perks of being a moderator
post #18 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I think it's because I occasionally try to discount some his many negative threads and posts about Android/Google:


just because they're negative doesn't mean they're not true. THEY'RE ALL TRUE.

GOOGLE IS THE DEVIL.
post #19 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

just because they're negative doesn't mean they're not true. THEY ARE.

GOOGLE IS THE DEVIL.


actually,

- Steve Jobs is Jesus Christ.

- Microsoft is the Devil.

- Google is the False Prophet.

bragging about freedom with their Android OS while they censor(ed) search results in China (for 4 years) and 28 other countries. HYPOCRITES!

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1995...er-products-in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Google
post #20 of 32
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=Marvin;1744115
Ultimately, they will come to the realisation that both systems have to co-exist and have their respective flaws.[/QUOTE]


oh yeah iOS and Android can co-exist alright. doesn't mean Android doesnt SUCK!

post #21 of 32
edit: wasting my breath.
post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R View Post

I have a lot more 'faith' in the open source community than I do in either Apple, MS, RIM, or Symbian.

I have a lot more 'faith' in open standards than closed, proprietary, patented bullshit.

I use free software (see above for list, minus Maya) every day; so do most people I know. Anybody who doesn't is missing out on one of the biggest gems of the internet. Apple uses free software too: Webkit from the KDE project, Apache, BSD Unix, etc etc. So actually you are using Open Source software whether you realize it or not.

If I was going to buy a smartphone (I'm not), it would likely be an Android device.

Apple doesn't "use" free software, they make major contributions to open source initiatives and return it to the community. They didn't just "get" Webkit from KDE, they poured enormous resources into developing Webkit, to the betterment of the internet at large.

And your "open" Android phone is simply the vehicle for a relentless ad company to collect as much data as humanly possible on every aspect of their users lives to sell to advertisers the better to, as Schmidt proudly puts it "read your minds." Why doesn't Google open source their search algorithms, page ranking systems or ad metrics? There's not a single thing that Google actually makes money at that they allow anyone to get anywhere near.

You Fandroids are disgusting. Every bit as blinkered as the most starry eyed Apple lover, but with this nauseating, ignorant veneer of fake morality around fake "openess" so brazenly contrived a two year old could see through it. Go peddle your creepy, ad driven, privacy free utopia somewhere else. You can proudly declare your "freedom" while being bought and sold every every second of the day.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

And your "open" Android phone is simply the vehicle for a relentless ad company to collect as much data as humanly possible on every aspect of their users lives to sell to advertisers the better to, as Schmidt proudly puts it "read your minds."

Go peddle your creepy, ad driven, privacy free utopia somewhere else. You can proudly declare your "freedom" while being bought and sold every every second of the day.

Their privacy policies could certainly be a cause for concern:

http://www.google.com/mobile/privacy.html

The majority is no different from Apple but some things sound like they go too far:

"Most of the other information we collect for mobile, such as your device and hardware IDs and device type, the request type, your carrier, your carrier user ID, the content of your request, and basic usage stats about your device"

As you say, Google makes their money from advertising and advertisers love usage information. It's not necessarily a breach of personal privacy and Apple's marketing groups need this information too but it would give them an advantage over the competition. Carriers can also add their own tracking code to an open OS.

Jobs gave an insight into their own stance on privacy:

"Well we learned this really interesting thing. Some company called Flurry had data on devices that we were using on our campus new devices. They were getting this info by getting developers to put software in their apps that sent info back to this company! So we went through the roof. Its violating our privacy policies, and its pissing us off! So we said were only going to allow analytics that dont give our device info only for the purpose of advertising."

So they are ok with analytics data for the purpose of advertising, which is what Google do. Obviously because Apple prefer to keep device IDs secret and Google have a huge host of devices, Google would rather have the device IDs. In that respect your personal identifiers are more protected with Apple but Apple have the credit card details, address, name, phone number and more of 160 million users and this is tied to media/app purchases and usage, which is how they rank the iTunes Store. Google will do the same for the Android market.

I don't think you can condemn either company when they behave much the same but with respect to their differing core businesses.

Which of the following would you prefer to see happen?

1. Windows 7 Mobile gets proliferated across a vast array of consumer devices with Windows media support, Zune store access, XBox 360/WinMo exclusive games
2. Nokia handles the bulk of consumer phones with an irrelevant OS
3. Google puts an open unix system out and pushes people into both iOS and Android development as well as supporting widely accepted web standards and implementations such as webkit
4. RIM start going after the consumer market by lowering prices

I think given that Apple will not lower prices into a certain consumer price bracket, not condemning Google is the best way forward. Obviously supporting them at Apple's expense is no good if you think Apple deserve to succeed but I don't see any reason in trying to vilify them in an attempt to see someone far worse step in and take their place.

When someone asks you for a phone recommendation and they can't afford an iPhone, what will you answer be? Mine is to buy an Android phone. If they can afford an iPhone, I recommend an iPhone over Android phones in that price bracket. Until the day comes when Apple sell iPod Touches with external phone parts, that's the closest you can get to supporting Apple IMO.
post #24 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Their privacy policies could certainly be a cause for concern:

http://www.google.com/mobile/privacy.html

I don't think you can condemn either company when they behave much the same but with respect to their differing core businesses.


the difference?

Apple doesn't go around telling people they're doing god's work or they're the symbol of freedom and all that BS while they're censoring search results in 28 other countries for YEARS!

GOOGLE = EVIL
post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

Apple doesn't go around telling people they're doing god's work or they're the symbol of freedom and all that BS while they're censoring search results in 28 other countries for YEARS!

To paint an accurate picture, you need to detail what they were censoring.

In the case of China, it's interesting that you ridicule Google when they lose marketshare to their censored competitor for fighting against censorship and then criticise them when they give in to censorship.

Censorship is a way of life. If you want to look at illegal material online, you can't because it is censored. If you want to download hardcore pornography from the itunes store, you can't because it's censored.

If censorship is universally bad regardless of the content it's applied to then everyone is evil.

Content providers pick and choose what you can access and Google is a content provider. If you want to blame someone, blame the people who force Google to censor content. If you want ultimate freedom, take your case all the way to the top. Until then, you are free to do what they tell you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mssKE_b48k
post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Their privacy policies could certainly be a cause for concern:

http://www.google.com/mobile/privacy.html

The majority is no different from Apple but some things sound like they go too far:

"Most of the other information we collect for mobile, such as your device and hardware IDs and device type, the request type, your carrier, your carrier user ID, the content of your request, and basic usage stats about your device"

As you say, Google makes their money from advertising and advertisers love usage information. It's not necessarily a breach of personal privacy and Apple's marketing groups need this information too but it would give them an advantage over the competition. Carriers can also add their own tracking code to an open OS.

Jobs gave an insight into their own stance on privacy:

"Well we learned this really interesting thing. Some company called Flurry had data on devices that we were using on our campus — new devices. They were getting this info by getting developers to put software in their apps that sent info back to this company! So we went through the roof. It’s violating our privacy policies, and it’s pissing us off! So we said we’re only going to allow analytics that don’t give our device info — only for the purpose of advertising."

So they are ok with analytics data for the purpose of advertising, which is what Google do. Obviously because Apple prefer to keep device IDs secret and Google have a huge host of devices, Google would rather have the device IDs. In that respect your personal identifiers are more protected with Apple but Apple have the credit card details, address, name, phone number and more of 160 million users and this is tied to media/app purchases and usage, which is how they rank the iTunes Store. Google will do the same for the Android market.

I don't think you can condemn either company when they behave much the same but with respect to their differing core businesses.

Which of the following would you prefer to see happen?

1. Windows 7 Mobile gets proliferated across a vast array of consumer devices with Windows media support, Zune store access, XBox 360/WinMo exclusive games
2. Nokia handles the bulk of consumer phones with an irrelevant OS
3. Google puts an open unix system out and pushes people into both iOS and Android development as well as supporting widely accepted web standards and implementations such as webkit
4. RIM start going after the consumer market by lowering prices

I think given that Apple will not lower prices into a certain consumer price bracket, not condemning Google is the best way forward. Obviously supporting them at Apple's expense is no good if you think Apple deserve to succeed but I don't see any reason in trying to vilify them in an attempt to see someone far worse step in and take their place.

When someone asks you for a phone recommendation and they can't afford an iPhone, what will you answer be? Mine is to buy an Android phone. If they can afford an iPhone, I recommend an iPhone over Android phones in that price bracket. Until the day comes when Apple sell iPod Touches with external phone parts, that's the closest you can get to supporting Apple IMO.

Two points:

Whatever superficial similarities there may be between Google and Apple in terms of some ad analytics, the fact remains that Google's actual business is selling data about users. Everything they do is designed to collect more, and more specific data about users. There simply isn't anything else they do.

Apple's actual business is selling hardware and software to users. As a matter of controlling their mobile platform they have made forays into ad sales, but that's incidental to what they're about.

We can always expect Google to be figuring out new ways to get people to use software and devices that reveal more about where, what and who they are, what they buy, what they're interested in, who they know, how often they go and do and visit, by what route, while considering which item, etc. Whatever vague assurances they may occasionally offer up (and Schmidt doesn't really even try), that's what they're for. They'll always be extending their capacity for that kind of analysis, because that's how they develop their art. To the extend that that means that they make more desirable products, it's incidental to what they're actually for.

We can always expect Apple to try and make ever more desirable hardware and software integrated experiences, so you'll want them and buy them and they can make their money.

There just isn't any comparison, and the difference is so intrinsic to how the two companies operate there never will be. What's unnerving about Google is the relentlessness, or rather the direction of the relentlessness. When we think of Apple or Jobs as being obsessed about refining the user experience or battery life or weight or responsiveness of their products, at worst we might disagree with the chosen tradeoffs while admitting that sweating the details of a product makes for a nicer product, even if it's one we elect not to use. When we think of Google obsessed about how to connect more people with more software and devices that do a better job of tracking their every move, thought and decision, it isn't anything but creepy. The only way it doesn't put you off is if, like Schmidt, you think privacy and not being entirely defined as a marketing opportunity are 20th century affectations that everybody ought to get over. Sorry, I don't, and it alarms me that so many people seem to be willing to trade access to their souls for "free" stuff. I think it's really impossible to overstate Google's reach, and I think it's incredibly dangerous.

Secondly, on the "what to recommend it someone can't afford an iPhone", I would simply point out that the purchase price (which if it's a matter of cost over any other consideration would be $99 vs. free on contract) is a drop in the bucket compared to the plan costs over the life of the contract. Anyone comparison shopping handsets on the initial buy-in just isn't paying attention, and my considered advice would be to do the math and get the phone you want.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #27 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

To paint an accurate picture, you need to detail what they were censoring.

In the case of China, it's interesting that you ridicule Google when they lose marketshare to their censored competitor for fighting against censorship and then criticise them when they give in to censorship.

Censorship is a way of life. If you want to look at illegal material online, you can't because it is censored. If you want to download hardcore pornography from the itunes store, you can't because it's censored.

If censorship is universally bad regardless of the content it's applied to then everyone is evil.

Content providers pick and choose what you can access and Google is a content provider. If you want to blame someone, blame the people who force Google to censor content. If you want ultimate freedom, take your case all the way to the top. Until then, you are free to do what they tell you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mssKE_b48k



it took them 4 years to finally pull out of China. and how about the other 28 countries where they're still censoring search results?

again censoring search result is a trade-off (though it IS evil). but don't go out telling people you're NOT DOING ANYTHING EVIL. BECAUSE YOU ARE.

GOOGLE IS EVIL and a HYPOCRITE.
post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

The only way it doesn't put you off is if, like Schmidt, you think privacy and not being entirely defined as a marketing opportunity are 20th century affectations that everybody ought to get over. Sorry, I don't, and it alarms me that so many people seem to be willing to trade access to their souls for "free" stuff. I think it's really impossible to overstate Google's reach, and I think it's incredibly dangerous.

How do you think you as an individual (or someone who buys into the Android market) will suffer as a result of Google's actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Secondly, on the "what to recommend it someone can't afford an iPhone", I would simply point out that the purchase price is a drop in the bucket compared to the plan costs over the life of the contract.

No matter how you pay for the phone, the cost of the device is absorbed into your service charges and that cost is £500 ($500 without tax) for the 16GB iPhone 4. Over 18 months, you may not notice £25 but you would if the phone is lost, stolen or damaged or you want to end your contract early. You can get other smartphones for 1/5 of the price.
post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The sentence "I am not looking forward to doing Android development" suggests he's one of the many non-Android developers fearful of how bad the situation is but is only going by how it's portrayed.

The fact that apps even work across vastly different screen sizes is an improvement over iOS, which just pixel-doubles iPhone apps on the iPad and blocks iPad apps from the iPhone. There are just 10,000 iPad apps and although it runs iPhone apps, like I say they are pixel-doubled.

If you buy an Android app, at least it's designed to buy once and work on anything. Even if it doesn't work right every time, at least they let you do it.

Apps don't work over vastly different screen sizes unless you actually provide the graphics to do so. Currently there are low, med and high density specs and small, med and large screen sizes but some devices exceed the high density (retina grade) and/or large screen (tablets) spec.

In a WTF moment the defaults for sizes and density changed from 1.5 to 1.6. Fortunately 1.5 and earlier is getting rarer.

It does scale for you but no better than iOS might scale for you. Note that if you have a 1 wide pixel object in your layout (a divider, line, arrow, whatever) it might not render in some scaling instances. The width can get set to 0. They also provide 9-patches which is an interesting approach for rez independent bitmaps vs svg-like approaches. It's an elegant hack but vector images is probably the "right" answer.

The layout management is also manual. Whatever intelligent multi-rez layout support you want to do will have to be done manually by you as a dev. It will reform the layout somewhat like it does for rotation. You have to be careful to use relative layouts and dips rather than pixels. The problem is that sometimes it's just freaking easier to use pixels to get the right spacing you want.

An amusing tidbit is that when you rotate the screen Android destroys the screen and rebuilds it so you have make sure you're saving enough state info to rebuild the screen correctly. Yah, thats in the early tutorials but just a bizzaro kind of thing for the app dev to deal with that you'd have thought would be handled for you. Android is a lot like that everywhere IMHO.

The idea that you can buy an android app and expect it to work on anything is amusing. Only if the developer followed every best practice and provided every graphic asset maybe. Even then, the current spec for large screen size is 480x854 with the highest density of 240 dpi. Gee, that seems a bit...conservative eh?

This is one reason why Google has said that Froyo is not tablet ready and why the app market is unavailable to android tablet makers. Good luck with running current apps at 1024x768 on Froyo. My guess is many will look like ass. Far worse than pixel doubled iPhone apps on the iPad.

As far as fragmentation goes, I can deal with 1.6 and before vs 2.1/2.2. It's the changes with Sense and Blur that is annoying. For example the softkeys on Sense don't respond to all the API calls. I guess that could happen with any softkey replacement but the as shipped keyboard should freaking act like the reference implementation.

I can't tell you anything about the Android Market annoyances, my app is an enterprise app, but everything else has felt like a giant hackfest and unfinished. I can't imagine the market experience much smoother.

I'm pretty close to dumping Android and becoming the WinPhone 7 dev or joining the iOS team. The only platform I would less want to work on is Blackberry. Fortunately we have a couple of Flash devs. And I say that as a Java dev. Android is the natural fit.
post #30 of 32
As we've been working on mobile for 10 years on Windows Mobile, BlackBerry, iOS, and now Android I can tell you that there are interesting aspects of Android dev. Yes, many things I'm just shocked about (rotation being one - didn't iOS set the bar for a smooth rotation 3 years ago???) and some even more shocked (Android Marketplace seemingly written by an intern).

That said, we've had 10,000 downloads of our app in the last week which is on par with our iOS versions when they were first introduced. Development wise I far prefer everything about iOS, marketing wise I far prefer everything about iOS, and store wise I far prefer everything about iOS. My beef with Android is just how sloppy everything is. It doesn't feel like a real company put it out and I get the same fragmentation issues I had with WM a couple years ago (mostly due to crappy HTC programming - gosh I hate their developers having dealt with them personally for 4-5 years now).
post #31 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akac View Post

As we've been working on mobile for 10 years on Windows Mobile, BlackBerry, iOS, and now Android I can tell you that there are interesting aspects of Android dev. Yes, many things I'm just shocked about (rotation being one - didn't iOS set the bar for a smooth rotation 3 years ago???) and some even more shocked (Android Marketplace seemingly written by an intern).

That said, we've had 10,000 downloads of our app in the last week which is on par with our iOS versions when they were first introduced. Development wise I far prefer everything about iOS, marketing wise I far prefer everything about iOS, and store wise I far prefer everything about iOS. My beef with Android is just how sloppy everything is. It doesn't feel like a real company put it out and I get the same fragmentation issues I had with WM a couple years ago (mostly due to crappy HTC programming - gosh I hate their developers having dealt with them personally for 4-5 years now).

I have far more confidence that MS will get it better with WinPhone7 than Google did with Android. This is even after I've been abandoned by MS before (Managed DirectX got nuked in favor of XNA).

I forget who wrote this but someone summed it up as iOS makes the stuff we do as devs the most often as easy as possible whereas everything in Android is of equal annoyance/difficulty.

The other comment regarding Android that I enjoy is that Android RelativeLayout is the unholy spawn of XML and GridBagLayout from java.

I now understand why Sense sucks so much based on your comment.
post #32 of 32
do you know what the ironic thing about this is? android isn't going to make google any money in the long run either. no developers are going to make money out of it.

http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2010/11/did_...own_enemi.html
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Android Development: The App Makers Still Cannot Make Money