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post #121 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

What? None of this makes any sense. Even the old Powerbook G4s could sleep for 3-4 days before the battery was drained. 1 to 8 hours? That's the battery life of a laptop continuously powered on! There's no way sleep could possibly eat that much power. What heat issues? I've never seen a sleeping laptop that got hot or even vaguely warm. The whole point of sleep is to just keep the dynamic RAM powered up so its contents aren't lost. Just how much power do you think it takes to refresh RAM?

I havent experienced the heat issues from sleeping my Macs, but his initial point still stands. The InstantOn is different from the way Mac notebooks went into stand by/hibernation mode before.

Not sleep, where everything is still stored in RAM and resumes instantly when you open the lid or touch the mouse/keyboard, but that mode past sleep where the contents of the RAM are saved to the HDD in a file that mirrors the amount of RAM you have installed. On my MBP with a fast SSD and 4GB RAM it takes about 5 seconds to resume after sitting in this state.
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post #122 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic View Post

I think Steve meant mostly in terms of manufacturing and design technique (i.e. Flash drive on a card rather than a a drive enclosure, slim design, battery dominance, cramming lots of hi-techness in a very small physical space) as opposed to operation/user experience. Obviously there are differences between OS X and iOS. The functional similarity between the iPad and the MBA is the "instant-on" capability.

He did say, after all (I'm paraphrasing here): "We took what we learned about how to make the iPad and applied it to the new MBAs". I see no fundamental problem with that claim.

This instant on idea is total hogwash. I have tested them and yes, they wake up faster than a MB or MBP by 1 or 2 seconds. I am sorry, that is not a feature most people care about...it is hyperbole. The batter life is rather unimpressive (for Apple). If they had built the machine so that it was not wedge-shaped then it could have a significantly larger area for the battery, allowing for another 30% or more battery life. AND the machine would have still been very thin and light. This is a prime example of Job's form over function.
post #123 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

What? None of this makes any sense. Even the old Powerbook G4s could sleep for 3-4 days before the battery was drained. 1 to 8 hours? That's the battery life of a laptop continuously powered on! There's no way sleep could possibly eat that much power. What heat issues? I've never seen a sleeping laptop that got hot or even vaguely warm. The whole point of sleep is to just keep the dynamic RAM powered up so its contents aren't lost. Just how much power do you think it takes to refresh RAM?

Hmm. I know my Macbook Alu 2ghz can go at most overnight in sleep mode without power connected before it shuts down. When I say 1 to 8 hours I mean depending on how much battery you've already used. It could get warm if you put it in a tight bag in ambient temperatures of 30degC / 90+degF.

What laptop do you have? What's your experience so far. Curious. I don't think the current crop of Intel laptops can go more than okay, say, 24 hours in sleep mode without shutting down to Deep Sleep.

Anyone?
post #124 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I'm pretty sure it's a stage of sleep, maybe its a definition problem or a communication problem. Apple likes to give its own term to things, and that throws people off. Last I recall, Intel has something like five or more stages of sleep. It seems to me that "Instant On" might be a bit of a misnomer because the machine is never really off.

My question is how much battery life is left after one month? Are we going to turn in on "instantly" only to have the OS say it needs to shut the system down in 10 minutes because the battery is drained?
post #125 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

This instant on idea is total hogwash. I have tested them and yes, they wake up faster than a MB or MBP by 1 or 2 seconds. I am sorry, that is not a feature most people care about...it is hyperbole. The batter life is rather unimpressive (for Apple). If they had built the machine so that it was not wedge-shaped then it could have a significantly larger area for the battery, allowing for another 30% or more battery life. AND the machine would have still been very thin and light. This is a prime example of Job's form over function.

But this is what I'm talking about. When you tested it, how long was the MBA asleep for? If it was asleep less than one hour, then it's normal wake from sleep, not Instant On. Instant On applies after it has been in sleep mode for MORE than one hour and it went into Standby Mode.
post #126 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

My question is how much battery life is left after one month? Are we going to turn in on "instantly" only to have the OS say it needs to shut the system down in 10 minutes because the battery is drained?

I think that is basically what it means: anytime within about a month you can come back to your MBA and it will start up with an appearance of Instant On, but how long it stay on without a supplemental power source depends on the remaining charge.

Quote:
Put MacBook Air to sleep*, and it enters standby mode to conserve battery life for up to 30 days.1
[]
The standby test measures battery life by allowing a system, connected to a wireless network, to enter deep sleep mode with Safari and Mail applications launched and all system settings left at default. Battery life varies by use and configuration. See www.apple.com/batteries for more information.
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post #127 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

My question is how much battery life is left after one month? Are we going to turn in on "instantly" only to have the OS say it needs to shut the system down in 10 minutes because the battery is drained?

Aw, come on... You know what they mean by up to 30 days standby. Sure, after 25 days maybe you only have several minutes left when you wake it up.

But the point is, say after 28 days, you could then charge it and then after that resume from exactly where it went to sleep, with all your apps and documents open. What other laptop in the world can be in instant on standby/sleep mode for weeks and still be woken up from it instantly to original running state with RAM as it was, etc.?

The point remains, if the claims are correct, we're basically talking about laptops that are never restarted and never shut down for weeks. Months if you recharge it from time to time.
post #128 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Aw, come on... You know what they mean by up to 30 days standby. Sure, after 25 days maybe you only have several minutes left when you wake it up.

But the point is, say after 28 days, you could then charge it and then after that resume from exactly where it went to sleep, with all your apps and documents open. What other laptop in the world can be in instant on standby/sleep mode for weeks and still be woken up from it instantly to original running state with RAM as it was, etc.?

The point remains, if the claims are correct, we're basically talking about laptops that are never restarted and never shut down for weeks. Months if you recharge it from time to time.

Just an assumption, but after the battery gets to low I would expect that it would do a proper shutdown, the way iOS-baed iDevice do to preserve themselves.
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post #129 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Just an assumption, but after the battery gets to low I would expect that it would do a proper shutdown, the way iOS-baed iDevice do to preserve themselves.

But on iOS such shutdown does not preserve the state of running apps, right? It boots up fresh once power is restored... Macs do deep sleep/hibernate where contents of memory are written to disk and the unit totally powered off, then restored to running state when it is powered and turned on again.

So I guess the Macbook Air would have several states as such:
Running
Sleep - Normal sleep
Standby - Instant On
SleepingBeauty - Contents of memory written to disk, unit fully powered off
post #130 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

But on iOS such shutdown does not preserve the state of running apps, right? It boots up fresh once power is restored... Macs do deep sleep/hibernate where contents of memory are written to disk and the unit totally powered off, then restored to running state when it is powered and turned on again.

So I guess the Macbook Air would have several states as such:
Running
Sleep - Normal sleep
Standby - Instant On
SleepingBeauty - Contents of memory written to disk, unit fully powered off

Youre right. My mistake, it wouldnt have to do a proper shutdown because its already saved the RAM contents to NAND.
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post #131 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

At least they are trying. Its not as if the mods get paid for their service.


In some circles (I get the term from Bruce Schneier), it is called Security Theater. It gives the appearance of robust action, despite the near-total lack of tangible results.
post #132 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Hmm. I know my Macbook Alu 2ghz can go at most overnight in sleep mode without power connected before it shuts down. When I say 1 to 8 hours I mean depending on how much battery you've already used. It could get warm if you put it in a tight bag in ambient temperatures of 30degC / 90+degF.

What laptop do you have? What's your experience so far. Curious. I don't think the current crop of Intel laptops can go more than okay, say, 24 hours in sleep mode without shutting down to Deep Sleep.

Anyone?

Sounds like you have problems with your battery.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=36158
post #133 of 148
Compare Walt Mossberg's reviews to David Pogue's and you'll have your answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dualie View Post

So where is yours so we can all see how it should be done?
post #134 of 148
I'm surprised that nobody has posted about the lack of TRIM in OS X. The performance of the Air may very well degrade over time. Without TRIM it could degrade even rather quickly.

Anyone familiar with SSD on the earlier Airs? Has your performance decreased over time?

Maybe 10.7 will include it. Lack of TRIM may be one reason that Apple upgrades iPhone with a complete overwrite instead of incremental patches. When you start using SSD as a full featured OS, there are thousands of rewrite blocks that ultimately need to be erased and that can only happen a finite number of times with flash.

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post #135 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

I did. I know what I'm talking about.

You sure aren't explaining what you're talking about, and I really would appreciate it if you did.
post #136 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Almost worth it. Now if Apple would only add a multitouch display that can flip and fold back over the keyboard like the convertible PC tablets...

In the official Apple video introduction to the new MacBook Air, Phil Schiller Explained exactly why that would lead to an awkward and uncomfortable user experience, and I couldn't agree more. Touch input devices should be kept separate from traditional input methods, as Mac OS X is designed for more precise selection that in many cases a finger would be to large for efficient use.

As for the convertible PC tablets... Well, I wouldn't be looking to get an Apple if I wanted a typical, fragile, and blunt PC tablet type device. The zen-like experience of using a Mac notebook is lost when adding functionality that might appeal to a narrower group of people.
post #137 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperscribble View Post

In the official Apple video introduction to the new MacBook Air, Phil Schiller Explained exactly why that would lead to an awkward and uncomfortable user experience, and I couldn't agree more. Touch input devices should be kept separate from traditional input methods, as Mac OS X is designed for more precise selection that in many cases a finger would be to large for efficient use.

I still think that large trackpad could be very useful if it had a visual output option. Besides making the calculator app much easier to use, now that Apple is pushing toward iOS-like fullscreen computing, having the trackpad area also being a display could let it list the clock, menu bar items and other useful stats. Even have little pop ups for IMs and Mail.

The potential usefulness is endless and its something other vendors cant compete with easily if the history of Synaptics multi-touch adoption and usability in other OSes are any indication.
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post #138 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I still think that large trackpad could be very useful if it had a visual output option. Besides making the calculator app much easier to use, now that Apple is pushing toward iOS-like fullscreen computing, having the trackpad area also being a display could let it list the clock, menu bar items and other useful stats. Even have little pop ups for IMs and Mail.

The potential usefulness is endless and it’s something other vendors can’t compete with easily if the history of Synaptics multi-touch adoption and usability in other OSes are any indication.

It would also replicate the experience of using as small touch pad as a remote for Apple TV apps. Glance down at your control surface, glance back up at your main screen. Synergy, baby!
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post #139 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Sounds like you have problems with your battery.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=36158

Wow. Yet again the Mac surprises me.

I have two batteries for my MacBook Alu 2ghz. One gives me about 3-5 hours normal usage, the original one about 3 hours... This original one is about 100 cycles and yeah, that's not too many cycles and should not be that bad as lasting only 3 hours, however it is not "bad enough" to be considered defective and replaced by Apple. Particularly after the 1st year of AppleCare protection even though you have the full 3 year warranty.

Nonetheless, with the weaker battery, I tried last night, and it only went down from about 98% to 91% in about 6 hours or so! That's at worse 2% drain per hour which would give about 2 days of sleep!

I have no idea why I never noticed this before. Maybe my previous MacBook Core Duo had some issues or I never tried to sleep it that long. I'm quite pleasantly stunned.

See, this is the kind of sh*t I'm talking about with being in such a Windows cheapo laptop world. Even after almost a decade of using the Mac I can't believe how good some features are.

The latest MacBook Pros must have some killer battery life. 5-8 hours usage and at least 3 days of sleep from a full charge.
post #140 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I still think that large trackpad could be very useful if it had a visual output option. Besides making the calculator app much easier to use, now that Apple is pushing toward iOS-like fullscreen computing, having the trackpad area also being a display could let it list the clock, menu bar items and other useful stats. Even have little pop ups for IMs and Mail.

The potential usefulness is endless and it’s something other vendors can’t compete with easily if the history of Synaptics multi-touch adoption and usability in other OSes are any indication.

You know, in the long run, I think that the entire keyboard/palm rest/trackpad should be a piece of multitouch glass display. It'll be hybrid in terms of the bottom part like a tablet and the upper screen just for displaying information. There will also be tactile feedback somehow on the soft keyboard for touch typing.

Imagine the paradigm. For the first time a "laptop" (and eventually desktop "keyboards") will have a totally customisable human-input-interface. Maybe some apps don't need a keyboard and trackpad. Maybe some apps have a better interface than this, and so the bottom surface can be that interface controlling the screen in a unique but appropriate way.

The Nintendo DS could provide some basic clues how this might work with dual screens.

Also, this multitouch display laptop as I describe would be a true iPad-like Mac laptop.
post #141 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I still think that large trackpad could be very useful if it had a visual output option. Besides making the calculator app much easier to use, now that Apple is pushing toward iOS-like fullscreen computing, having the trackpad area also being a display could let it list the clock, menu bar items and other useful stats. Even have little pop ups for IMs and Mail.

The goal of an Apple product is to offer an elemental, refined, simple user interface. One must take into account the overall aesthetic, apart from the fact that if a display multitouch trackpad were added to a Mac notebook, the price would likely soar only for the purpose of adding limited functionality. Battery life may plummet. While I can see how you might find this an interesting idea "on paper," it may be more of a show off device suited for an expo of some sort.
post #142 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperscribble View Post

The goal of an Apple product is to offer an elemental, refined, simple user interface. One must take into account the overall aesthetic, apart from the fact that if a display multitouch trackpad were added to a Mac notebook, the price would likely soar only for the purpose of adding limited functionality. Battery life may plummet. While I can see how you might find this an interesting idea "on paper," it may be more of a show off device suited for an expo of some sort.

Im not about sci-fi features, Im all about usefulness. This would be useful. As it stands now, if I want to use the calculator app I will usually grab my iPhone as its faster to input data. Having you tried to use a calculator that requires you to use linear number keys or move the mouse to input digits? Its not very useful. But having the display turn on to show you the numbers on the trackpad would be very effective and fast. That is not a showy feature.

As for battery, as previously noted I dont expect such a feature to be enabled constantly running video, but a useful to add features that are otherwise not feasible. This would be a great place for AMOLED. The resolution doesnt have to be high, and if its showing black its not using power.
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post #143 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperscribble View Post

In the official Apple video introduction to the new MacBook Air, Phil Schiller Explained exactly why that would lead to an awkward and uncomfortable user experience, and I couldn't agree more. Touch input devices should be kept separate from traditional input methods, as Mac OS X is designed for more precise selection that in many cases a finger would be to large for efficient use.

As for the convertible PC tablets... Well, I wouldn't be looking to get an Apple if I wanted a typical, fragile, and blunt PC tablet type device. The zen-like experience of using a Mac notebook is lost when adding functionality that might appeal to a narrower group of people.

Whoever said the trackpad had to be removed and you would need to rely only on the touchscreen? The touchscreen would be mainly for iOS usage, not Mac usage, although it can still work in some situations. See below. Also note that in quite a few cases, there's really not much difference between the iPad and Mac interfaces. Look at the iPod app. It's almost a dead ringer for the desktop iTunes now and works quite well. You don't need "precise selection" for that. Besides, to tell the truth, I don't much like trackpads. Whenever I use a laptop, I plug in a mouse. As for "typical, fragile, blunt," why would you think adding a dual-axis hinge would add a lot of weight and thickness to an MBA?

Besides, I guess you're subscribing to the notion that Apple knows everything and never changes its mind. Like, (paraphrasing) "Nobody wants to watch video on an iPod." Apple will never go Intel. Apple will never make a cell phone. Apple will never make a tablet. Apple will never make a limited functionality ultralight laptop. Apple will never make an entry level Mac that costs less than $1000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I’m not about sci-fi features, I’m all about usefulness. This would be useful. As it stands now, if I want to use the calculator app I will usually grab my iPhone as it’s faster to input data. Having you tried to use a calculator that requires you to use linear number keys or move the mouse to input digits? It’s not very useful. But having the display turn on to show you the numbers on the trackpad would be very effective and fast. That is not a “showy” feature.

Exactly why I'd want a hybrid of MBA and iPad. I've had the nonpareil calculator on my Mac for years now. It looks and works exactly as I remember the HP calculators from decades ago. But I reach for my iPad and Pcalc every time instead whenever I need a calculator. Even though I have a numeric keypad, it's still too much of a bother to use for anything except the basic arithmetic functions.
post #144 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Exactly why I'd want a hybrid of MBA and iPad. I've had the nonpareil calculator on my Mac for years now. It looks and works exactly as I remember the HP calculators from decades ago. But I reach for my iPad and Pcalc every time instead whenever I need a calculator. Even though I have a numeric keypad, it's still too much of a bother to use for anything except the basic arithmetic functions.

1) Do you know of any TI graphing calc “emulators" for Mac OS? I need to relearn to use one and I’d rather do it without having to buy one at the moment.

2) Have you tried Soulver? The concept addresses what is inherently wrong with having everything we use in the real world translate over to a virtual interface.

Quote:
Besides, to tell the truth, I don't much like trackpads. Whenever I use a laptop, I plug in a mouse.

I’m all about the trackpad and have been a notebook user for over a decade now (thought that might be changing now with the iPad and MBAs making a strong case for me to have a nice iMac as my heavy duty machine… though i’d still have the new trackpad for it.

The size of the trackpad, the physical button underneath it instead of being separated, and the glass top all scream to me that Apple has thought about the idea of making the trackpad a display for specific tasks long before I have. Heck, even Dell has Adamo prototypes that have a trackpad that doubles as a display.
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post #145 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Do you know of any TI graphing calc emulators" for Mac OS? I need to relearn to use one and Id rather do it without having to buy one at the moment.

You said you have an iPhone. You can grab the PI83 graphing calculator app in the App Store for 99¢.

Quote:
Im all about the trackpad and have been a notebook user for over a decade now (thought that might be changing now with the iPad and MBAs making a strong case for me to have a nice iMac as my heavy duty machine though id still have the new trackpad for it.

Actually, I misspoke. I don't hate trackpads per se. I did very much enjoy my iGesture, but there's simply nothing else on the market now that can match its enormous variety of available commands and its size. The Magic Trackpad is still not as good. If only Hipporemote or other trackpad apps for the iPad had the four and five finger gestures and the same programmability.
post #146 of 148
Is the super-deep sleep just hibernation in action after a while or is it something new???

Does this mean that gen1 and 2 owners are getting this update also???

I dont like hibernate that much... takes to long in my taste. But standby has been getting worse and worse on newer machines (more batterydraining). I thought that my first white macbook was broken because its standby draining was that much worse than my ibook g4. I remember the old days when the machine could go on almost forever on standby and instantly on. Does anybody know why this has been getting worse and worse in the intel era? My own guess would be that the higher bus frequenzy for the ram is more battery draining comparing eg to the ibm G4 133 bus speeds where. and its almost doubled from 666 to 1066Mhz in the intel era.
post #147 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by habi View Post

Is the super-deep sleep just hibernation in action after a while or is it something new???

Does this mean that gen1 and 2 owners are getting this update also???

I dont like hibernate that much... takes to long in my taste. But standby has been getting worse and worse on newer machines (more batterydraining). I thought that my first white macbook was broken because its standby draining was that much worse than my ibook g4. I remember the old days when the machine could go on almost forever on standby and instantly on. Does anybody know why this has been getting worse and worse in the intel era? My own guess would be that the higher bus frequenzy for the ram is more battery draining comparing eg to the ibm G4 133 bus speeds where. and its almost doubled from 666 to 1066Mhz in the intel era.

Standby and Instant On - I think it is a form of hibernation after 1 hour of being in sleep mode. It is probably a new "protocol" developed for MacBook Air new generation. This "protocol" is probably a modification of the existing hibernate/deep sleep mode available on Mac laptops.

I don't think other MBA generation owners will have this kind of update, definitely not for those with hard disks.

In the Intel era, it's not that bad, a few days of sleep without having to charge the battery. Maybe the larger RAM, faster CPUs and higher bus frequencies cause less sleep time compared to G4 days.

To me I just discovered my MacBook Alu 2ghz can go for at least 2 days in sleep mode, I'm happy enough...
post #148 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Standby and Instant On - I think it is a form of hibernation after 1 hour of being in sleep mode. It is probably a new "protocol" developed for MacBook Air new generation. This "protocol" is probably a modification of the existing hibernate/deep sleep mode available on Mac laptops.

I don't think other MBA generation owners will have this kind of update, definitely not for those with hard disks.

In the Intel era, it's not that bad, a few days of sleep without having to charge the battery. Maybe the larger RAM, faster CPUs and higher bus frequencies cause less sleep time compared to G4 days.

To me I just discovered my MacBook Alu 2ghz can go for at least 2 days in sleep mode, I'm happy enough...

Well 2 days of sleeptime to me with a drained battery is like not having the feature at all. Useless!!!! Atleast it hibernates when the battery goes low enough. Otherwise it would be totally useless.

In this regard the G4-notebook era was better...

I just cant understand the backwards step the intel coop did with the ACPI vs APM. My first notebook a compaq could do 2 weeks in standby and still have plenty of juice for work and it was instaltly on. Someone cried about not having the hardware use any battery at all and they got the ACPI standard and got hibernate (write ram contents on disk), which fucked up the standby business for everybody with intel ACPI (even intel macbooks use the same powermodes the hardware delivers)

Well we with the ssd:s might be very happy to get this feature (if it doesnt need any hardware: HACKERS ATTN.!!! We need to enable this on old hardware with ssd:s!!!!!). Its pretty frustrating of you use only 10% of battery on friday and go over the weekend so your battery is 10% on monday even if you didnt use it in the weekend. which probable means you have to carry the power brick with you these days. Sometimes I didnt remember to bring it with me. And cant use the machine because of that.

In standby the only thing with power should be the RAM memory. Well cpu stacks and stuff like that will have to bee upkeeped but I think the cpus have a special mode for this. disks and displays will go completely off.

In this sense the computingworld did go the wrong way. Hibernation isnt fastenough and APM in the 90:s was really good. Just now are we starting to see something like that in the ACPI era (change of the century). Which was a total piece of crap tech.
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