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post #41 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

i bolded the bits I want to address.

You say that every choice taken already exists...so hypothesize about whether there exists a reality for every decision...how did the universe know to create this reality and leave out all the decisions that didn't happen?

If the universe created the realities to exist then that decision couldn't have been made under free will, because it had to have happened to justify the existance of the universe that existed to accomodate it.

If the universe created all realities for every decision, then no free will can exist, because every decision is made every time and every outcome exists to accomodate it. Free will is then an illusion. If you say that the realities exist until a decision is made, then where does the energy go when the universe that isn't needed disappears?

Is time linear? I think not, indeed I think the only sane interpretation of QM is the Transactional Interpretation. Essentially every event sends information both forward and backwards in time as the equations are symetric. (Where the 2nd Law, time and entropy fit with this is the big question), however, the major consequence of this interpretation is the complete lack of free-will, and perhaps this is why it isn't very popular.

However i didn't really want my main point to be about freewill, I am more interested in the mechanics and logic of the multiverse. I dont fully appreciate why people believe it at all.

Well I think you're not understanding. We don't create these worlds when we make a decision. They already exist and represent every possible decision we could have made. Everything that can happen does happen somewhere. Every outcome. They exist in these other parallel worlds. The universe didn't have " know " anything. It's just that every action and outcome exists. We are merely one of them. And I didn't come up with this stuff. This is all part of modern theory. It's called M theory ( it used to be string theory ) but it's a modern way to explain how things work and possibly the basis for a grand unified theory of everything ( what Einstein was working on until his death but could never solve ). In M theory the idea is that all of these parallel worlds are membranes that tend to undulate and when they come into contact that's what causes the big bang. Now the just so you understand. The big bang didn't create the membrane but it does create a condition inside of it that we perceive as our universe. There might be membranes where this doesn't happen at all. Without the math it's very difficult to grasp the entire picture of how this works. But don't feel bad I don't have that kind of mathematical knowledge myself. But I love to read about the theory even with my limited understanding.

Here's a little something from the Science Channel : http://science.discovery.com/stories...-universe.html

About the free will thing. It's a matter of perspective. Inside this universe you make a choice to have a chicken sandwich for lunch today. No one made that choice for you. However if time happens say all at once and not the past, present, future way we perceive it your choice has happened/ happens/ will happen all at once. The linear part is an illusion on our part because we can't see it any other way ( any more than we can't see that matter isn't really solid it mearly appears that way to us ). There are many things in nature that we know just aren't the way we perceive them.

Anyway It may be unchangeable but inside those parameters it was still your choice. No one made that choice for you. Also in some other universe you choose tuna. In another you had soup. Every possible outcome is represented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything

No one knows for sure that this is exactly the way things are but it's the best answers we have for now and it solves a lot of problems like the paradox dilemma that makes the idea of time travel so unworkable. And of course if this proves out someday then they might be asking where all these parallel worlds came from. But that's the thing about science. There's always a deeper mystery.
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post #42 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

About the free will thing. It's a matter of perspective. Inside this universe you make a choice to have a chicken sandwich for lunch today. No one made that choice for you.

That's not how Free Will works (or doesn't work).

You decide to have a chicken sandwich. Maybe you'll have one - in the random course of things in the mainstream US it's possible. You succeed. You call that Free Will.

But it's random.

If the random fates decide you will not have that sandwich. You will not.

And if you decide to have one in the middle of the Gobi desert you will not.

And it gets worse than that.

The real question is WHY did you decide to have a chicken sandwich?

If you have just been subjected to a 30 minute advertising blitz from KFC and then you decide to go and get one - it is NOT your Free Will.

If you have been conditioned to have one every day and you continue this habit for years - it is NOT your Free Will.

In fact, if you analyze everything in your life in this way - things you are conditioned to do or want, things you are programmed to buy, reactions you always and invariably have to the same stimuli, beliefs you hold and cannot adjust - then you will soon see (if you are objective, which given the above factors, is not easy) that there is no Free Will at all.

It is an illusion we all have an agreement to perpetuate.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #43 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's not how Free Will works (or doesn't work).

You decide to have a chicken sandwich. Maybe you'll have one - in the random course of things in the mainstream US it's possible. You succeed. You call that Free Will.

But it's random.

If the random fates decide you will not have that sandwich. You will not.

And if you decide to have one in the middle of the Gobi desert you will not.

And it gets worse than that.

The real question is WHY did you decide to have a chicken sandwich?

If you have just been subjected to a 30 minute advertising blitz from KFC and then you decide to go and get one - it is NOT your Free Will.

If you have been conditioned to have one every day and you continue this habit for years - it is NOT your Free Will.

In fact, if you analyze everything in your life in this way - things you are conditioned to do or want, things you are programmed to buy, reactions you always and invariably have to the same stimuli, beliefs you hold and cannot adjust - then you will soon see (if you are objective, which given the above factors, is not easy) that there is no Free Will at all.

It is an illusion we all have an agreement to perpetuate.

Well now you're getting in to other things. So maybe I should have said you have free will as much as you've ever had free will.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #44 of 67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well now you're getting in to other things. So maybe I should have said you have free will as much as you've ever had free will.

Heheh...that would work
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #45 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's not how Free Will works (or doesn't work).

You decide to have a chicken sandwich. Maybe you'll have one - in the random course of things in the mainstream US it's possible. You succeed. You call that Free Will.

But it's random.

If the random fates decide you will not have that sandwich. You will not.

And if you decide to have one in the middle of the Gobi desert you will not.

And it gets worse than that.

The real question is WHY did you decide to have a chicken sandwich?

If you have just been subjected to a 30 minute advertising blitz from KFC and then you decide to go and get one - it is NOT your Free Will.

If you have been conditioned to have one every day and you continue this habit for years - it is NOT your Free Will.

In fact, if you analyze everything in your life in this way - things you are conditioned to do or want, things you are programmed to buy, reactions you always and invariably have to the same stimuli, beliefs you hold and cannot adjust - then you will soon see (if you are objective, which given the above factors, is not easy) that there is no Free Will at all.

It is an illusion we all have an agreement to perpetuate.


Yup. That's the argument in a nutshell. And the one I'm a bit uneasy about, especially because I don't believe quantum randomness is actually random. Just because we can describe a set of actions with a probability distribution does not mean that set of actions is controlled by the probability distribution. It just means we don't know enough about the rules at that scale to know where the real interaction rules are coming from, so we aggregate at a "good enough" level. The shortcut is good enough to describe the past, but totally unsatisfying for moving into the future and that generates big problems for the whole Free Will argument you subscribe to. But I don't have the background to tighten up that set of intuitions into a real philosophical tour de force.
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post #46 of 67
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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

Yup. That's the argument in a nutshell. And the one I'm a bit uneasy about, especially because I don't believe quantum randomness is actually random. Just because we can describe a set of actions with a probability distribution does not mean that set of actions is controlled by the probability distribution. It just means we don't know enough about the rules at that scale to know where the real interaction rules are coming from, so we aggregate at a "good enough" level. The shortcut is good enough to describe the past, but totally unsatisfying for moving into the future and that generates big problems for the whole Free Will argument you subscribe to. But I don't have the background to tighten up that set of intuitions into a real philosophical tour de force.

There might be somewhere on the AI archive records of me saying the same thing about 6-7 years ago if you can find it. I was trying to make the case for a fractal universe. Since that time I have read a few articles on the same thing, so im not the only one.

My personal belief if that quantum physics is deterministic by the laws of chaos theory. This is the 'rule' I believe could be the candidate for the rule you are talking about. Its a wonderful rule, and if you wanted to create a self assembling universe from a simple rule, say if you were simulating a universe on a computer, this is the mathematical rule I believe you would use to define the whole thing. It creates structure at large scales, yet when probing at the limits of technology, would look essentially random - just like QM.

Id better make it clear, that I am not claiming to know this, just that this is what I believe is most likely from years of being interested in the subject.
post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well I think you're not understanding. We don't create these worlds when we make a decision. They already exist and represent every possible decision we could have made. Everything that can happen does happen somewhere. Every outcome. They exist in these other parallel worlds. The universe didn't have " know " anything. It's just that every action and outcome exists. We are merely one of them. And I didn't come up with this stuff. This is all part of modern theory. It's called M theory ( it used to be string theory ) but it's a modern way to explain how things work and possibly the basis for a grand unified theory of everything ( what Einstein was working on until his death but could never solve ). In M theory the idea is that all of these parallel worlds are membranes that tend to undulate and when they come into contact that's what causes the big bang. Now the just so you understand. The big bang didn't create the membrane but it does create a condition inside of it that we perceive as our universe. There might be membranes where this doesn't happen at all. Without the math it's very difficult to grasp the entire picture of how this works. But don't feel bad I don't have that kind of mathematical knowledge myself. But I love to read about the theory even with my limited understanding.

Here's a little something from the Science Channel : http://science.discovery.com/stories...-universe.html

About the free will thing. It's a matter of perspective. Inside this universe you make a choice to have a chicken sandwich for lunch today. No one made that choice for you. However if time happens say all at once and not the past, present, future way we perceive it your choice has happened/ happens/ will happen all at once. The linear part is an illusion on our part because we can't see it any other way ( any more than we can't see that matter isn't really solid it mearly appears that way to us ). There are many things in nature that we know just aren't the way we perceive them.

Anyway It may be unchangeable but inside those parameters it was still your choice. No one made that choice for you. Also in some other universe you choose tuna. In another you had soup. Every possible outcome is represented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything

No one knows for sure that this is exactly the way things are but it's the best answers we have for now and it solves a lot of problems like the paradox dilemma that makes the idea of time travel so unworkable. And of course if this proves out someday then they might be asking where all these parallel worlds came from. But that's the thing about science. There's always a deeper mystery.

hehe! with respect Jimmac, I've been talking about M-theory and Calabi-Yau spaces for years, I was just trying to get to grips with what you were claiming from your understanding of it. - I'm not claiming mine is better

Why I have a problem with the multiverse now you have explained what you understand it to be, is that it is not about decisions. It is about quantum states. Its about having a whole duplicate universe for every possible quantum state for every single sub atomic particle that exists in a universe (singular). Its not so much that if I chose a chicken sandwich then the universe takes a different reality, but the trillions upon trillions of quantum states that go on in an electrical pathway of the brain, in just making that decision - all of which need a universe of their own, just to explain the (say) position of a valence electron in a single carbon atom at any particular point in time. How many atoms go into making that decision in your brain? I dont know, - what is a 'decision'? Maybe it is the particular arrangement of billions or trillions of atoms and electrons in a snapshot of plank time - Never to be repeated again. You need a universe for every state of the coming together of that arrangement.

Yes it explains everything I guess, in explaining nothing. I am not yet able to do the math, but that is my lifelong goal. I dont believe in free will - I accept Sego's style of argument from a philosophical POV, but I think there is a fundamental reason in the universe that free-will is ruled out.

Have you checked out Transactional Interpretation QM. I first came across it in the book Schrodingers Kittens, towards the back, about 8 years ago. Its beautifully simple and could explain the way the universe works, without this multiverse construct. I've looked on the net for a good explanation of it, but cant find one. Maybe check out the book if you're interested, even if you dismiss it!
post #48 of 67
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Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

Why I have a problem with the multiverse now you have explained what you understand it to be, is that it is not about decisions. It is about quantum states....

Well, all of this stuff is based on series of assumptions that are developed in order to fit with the mathematics of existing theories. Then these bundles of assumptions can cascade into new theories, which are subject to further assumptions. It is possible that the assumptions are wrong, and it is also possible that the theories are wrong. Physicists are sometimes too concerned with trying to understand things that may not be possible to understand at all. Engineers have a better philosophy: the universe exists -- deal with it.
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post #49 of 67
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Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Well, all of this stuff is based on series of assumptions that are developed in order to fit with the mathematics of existing theories. Then these bundles of assumptions can cascade into new theories, which are subject to further assumptions. It is possible that the assumptions are wrong, and it is also possible that the theories are wrong. Physicists are sometimes too concerned with trying to understand things that may not be possible to understand at all. Engineers have a better philosophy: the universe exists -- deal with it.

Quote:
Engineers have a better philosophy: the universe exists -- deal with it

I love this take on things. The universe is always surprising us and it's possible we aren't smart enough yet to truly understand all aspects of it. It would be very arrogant to assume otherwise. All I'm saying is this is the way most physicists are leaning now days and it seems to make a lot of sense to me with my limited understanding. And if it's wrong I'm in good company. Being wrong about something in science can be a good thing in that it leads to more questions which in turn lead to greater understanding.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #50 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

hehe! with respect Jimmac, I've been talking about M-theory and Calabi-Yau spaces for years, I was just trying to get to grips with what you were claiming from your understanding of it. - I'm not claiming mine is better

Why I have a problem with the multiverse now you have explained what you understand it to be, is that it is not about decisions. It is about quantum states. Its about having a whole duplicate universe for every possible quantum state for every single sub atomic particle that exists in a universe (singular). Its not so much that if I chose a chicken sandwich then the universe takes a different reality, but the trillions upon trillions of quantum states that go on in an electrical pathway of the brain, in just making that decision - all of which need a universe of their own, just to explain the (say) position of a valence electron in a single carbon atom at any particular point in time. How many atoms go into making that decision in your brain? I dont know, - what is a 'decision'? Maybe it is the particular arrangement of billions or trillions of atoms and electrons in a snapshot of plank time - Never to be repeated again. You need a universe for every state of the coming together of that arrangement.

Yes it explains everything I guess, in explaining nothing. I am not yet able to do the math, but that is my lifelong goal. I dont believe in free will - I accept Sego's style of argument from a philosophical POV, but I think there is a fundamental reason in the universe that free-will is ruled out.

Have you checked out Transactional Interpretation QM. I first came across it in the book Schrodingers Kittens, towards the back, about 8 years ago. Its beautifully simple and could explain the way the universe works, without this multiverse construct. I've looked on the net for a good explanation of it, but cant find one. Maybe check out the book if you're interested, even if you dismiss it!

I guess I still don't get your problem with it. If there is a multiverse it's a big place and it could be these seperate universes are infinite. If that's the case then that's plenty of room for every atom or electron in every possible state. I guess I stopped looking for a sign that says : " Everything Ends Here! " a long time ago. And beyond that I wouldn't be surprised if there are things we haven't even thought of yet. I'll try to get a copy of that book however. It does sound interesting.

Well look here! : http://mist.npl.washington.edu/npl/i...qm/TI_toc.html. Is that what you were talking about? It looks like it was written a couple of decades ago when M theory was still string theory but I'm sure it's still an interesting read.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #51 of 67
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Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

There might be somewhere on the AI archive records of me saying the same thing about 6-7 years ago if you can find it. I was trying to make the case for a fractal universe. Since that time I have read a few articles on the same thing, so im not the only one.

My personal belief if that quantum physics is deterministic by the laws of chaos theory. This is the 'rule' I believe could be the candidate for the rule you are talking about. Its a wonderful rule, and if you wanted to create a self assembling universe from a simple rule, say if you were simulating a universe on a computer, this is the mathematical rule I believe you would use to define the whole thing. It creates structure at large scales, yet when probing at the limits of technology, would look essentially random - just like QM.

Id better make it clear, that I am not claiming to know this, just that this is what I believe is most likely from years of being interested in the subject.

Well if you mean Chaos Theory itself is bunk we can agree. That's a total case of correlation is not causation.

As to Free Will, if it does not exist, we are not responsible for our own actions because every action down to the smallest subatomic action is predetermined based on the original seed values at creation. Kinda bleak and disheartening an existence. Why even make laws then, oh yeah, wait, they were implicitly written before we were ever forced to recognize them.

Personally I don't believe in pre-ordained destiny as an irresistible force, that makes the entire universe trivial and boring at the macro level. And either everything as it is is a one-in-an-infinite possibility (we can't be THAT special) or EVERYTHING is explicitly pre-ordained and pre-computed and that just doesn't make sense because to simulate something takes more computing power than for it to just exist (that means the "universe" needs to be infinitely larger than infinity--and that's just broken). I don't think that a non-pre-ordained destiny necessarily satisfies the broken philosophical Free Will thing tough either.
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post #52 of 67
Fascinating. My personal take is based on my spiritual experiences which have accelerated in the past 10 years. Multiverse is the closest "rational" explanation for my current understanding of the "physical" universe... But once you experience the Divine, boy quantum mechanics seems like, a child's toy.

So either I am on my way to the Truth or my neurons are slowly frying (diagnosed with bipolar disorder also in the past 10 years). I'd like to think it's the former.

BTW when I say multiverse it is split into two different things - that of illusion, which is finite, and that of pure Creation, which is infinite. I'd say I'm straddling both states at the moment.

But boy, what we know and our mind is a speck of sand in a beach in a speck of sand in a cosmic beach in a speck of sand in... You get the idea.
post #53 of 67
Buddhists would focus on what was your INTENTION in having the chicken sandwich, more so than what you actually ate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's not how Free Will works (or doesn't work).

You decide to have a chicken sandwich. Maybe you'll have one - in the random course of things in the mainstream US it's possible. You succeed. You call that Free Will.

But it's random.

If the random fates decide you will not have that sandwich. You will not.

And if you decide to have one in the middle of the Gobi desert you will not.

And it gets worse than that.

The real question is WHY did you decide to have a chicken sandwich?

If you have just been subjected to a 30 minute advertising blitz from KFC and then you decide to go and get one - it is NOT your Free Will.

If you have been conditioned to have one every day and you continue this habit for years - it is NOT your Free Will.

In fact, if you analyze everything in your life in this way - things you are conditioned to do or want, things you are programmed to buy, reactions you always and invariably have to the same stimuli, beliefs you hold and cannot adjust - then you will soon see (if you are objective, which given the above factors, is not easy) that there is no Free Will at all.

It is an illusion we all have an agreement to perpetuate.
post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Fascinating. My personal take is based on my spiritual experiences which have accelerated in the past 10 years. Multiverse is the closest "rational" explanation for my current understanding of the "physical" universe... But once you experience the Divine, boy quantum mechanics seems like, a child's toy.

So either I am on my way to the Truth or my neurons are slowly frying (diagnosed with bipolar disorder also in the past 10 years). I'd like to think it's the former.

BTW when I say multiverse it is split into two different things - that of illusion, which is finite, and that of pure Creation, which is infinite. I'd say I'm straddling both states at the moment.

But boy, what we know and our mind is a speck of sand in a beach in a speck of sand in a cosmic beach in a speck of sand in... You get the idea.

From my reading and understanding, a belief in a multiverse puts science on no better ground than religion. It becomes a matter of complete faith again.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #55 of 67
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Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

From my reading and understanding, a belief in a multiverse puts science on no better ground than religion. It becomes a matter of complete faith again.

Religion does not have to be about faith - that's just for the idiots. Experiential religion, or mysticism if you prefer, relies on demonstration.

For example, a meditative practice or exercise such as magical invocation, is repeatable.

I studied Occultism when I was younger for several years and my teacher in that regard would always describe an exercise and the given result which should result. Sometimes he would describe it wrongly on purpose to check if you were doing it correctly - then check the results in one's Magical Diary to see if you were actually getting the correct result.

The whole system is thus one that does not require faith in any way, shape or form. Of course though we are talking about more 'pure' religious thought when talking of mysticism or magic - most religions today are conservative and degenerated and corrupt.

Jesus Christ for example was - imo - among other things, a magician. The 'this is my blood' ritual of the Last Supper for example is a pure magical ritual and has many parallels in magical 'blood brother' rites throughout the globe.

As usual the weak and stupid corrupted it and made it their own emasculated pathetic system to perpetuate weakness.

As to multiverses etc, I incline more to Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence which I would argue IS provable logically at least.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

From my reading and understanding, a belief in a multiverse puts science on no better ground than religion. It becomes a matter of complete faith again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Religion does not have to be about faith - that's just for the idiots. Experiential religion, or mysticism if you prefer, relies on demonstration.

For example, a meditative practice or exercise such as magical invocation, is repeatable.

I studied Occultism when I was younger for several years and my teacher in that regard would always describe an exercise and the given result which should result. Sometimes he would describe it wrongly on purpose to check if you were doing it correctly - then check the results in one's Magical Diary to see if you were actually getting the correct result.

The whole system is thus one that does not require faith in any way, shape or form. Of course though we are talking about more 'pure' religious thought when talking of mysticism or magic - most religions today are conservative and degenerated and corrupt.

Jesus Christ for example was - imo - among other things, a magician. The 'this is my blood' ritual of the Last Supper for example is a pure magical ritual and has many parallels in magical 'blood brother' rites throughout the globe.

As usual the weak and stupid corrupted it and made it their own emasculated pathetic system to perpetuate weakness.

As to multiverses etc, I incline more to Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence which I would argue IS provable logically at least.

Well, I now consider myself to be "Gnostic" as the most apt description of my beliefs. To me, honestly, everything stems from faith, not as something you hope for, but something you just *know*, inside. Science is the outside of it, a sense of trying to understand what we perceive, but current science I think is still far, far behind anything approaching "faith".
post #57 of 67
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Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Well, I now consider myself to be "Gnostic" as the most apt description of my beliefs. To me, honestly, everything stems from faith, not as something you hope for, but something you just *know*, inside. Science is the outside of it, a sense of trying to understand what we perceive, but current science I think is still far, far behind anything approaching "faith".

What is faith though?

According to KJV in Hebrews:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Evidence....not 'belief' - evidence.

What do you mean by 'Gnostic'? There were many Gnostic groups and many contradicted each other.

Do you follow any particular theology?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #58 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Well, I now consider myself to be "Gnostic" as the most apt description of my beliefs. To me, honestly, everything stems from faith, not as something you hope for, but something you just *know*, inside. Science is the outside of it, a sense of trying to understand what we perceive, but current science I think is still far, far behind anything approaching "faith".

No, Science is not outside "faith, not as something you hope for, but something you just *know*".

The bedrock of Mathematics which is the bedrock of Science itself sits squarely and utterly on faith. Faith that the few Axioms are true, because there is no way to prove them. It is a non-religious faith, but it is faith interwoven into absolutely everything implicitly. Without that unyielding faith, even if unrecognized by most, Science as we know it would not be possible.
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post #59 of 67
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Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


But boy, what we know and our mind is a speck of sand in a beach in a speck of sand in a cosmic beach in a speck of sand in... You get the idea.

yeah, you've just described a fractal aka chaos theory!
post #60 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

From my reading and understanding, a belief in a multiverse puts science on no better ground than religion. It becomes a matter of complete faith again.

OMG we agree!
post #61 of 67
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Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I guess I still don't get your problem with it. If there is a multiverse it's a big place and it could be these seperate universes are infinite. If that's the case then that's plenty of room for every atom or electron in every possible state. I guess I stopped looking for a sign that says : " Everything Ends Here! " a long time ago. And beyond that I wouldn't be surprised if there are things we haven't even thought of yet. I'll try to get a copy of that book however. It does sound interesting.

Well look here! : http://mist.npl.washington.edu/npl/i...qm/TI_toc.html. Is that what you were talking about? It looks like it was written a couple of decades ago when M theory was still string theory but I'm sure it's still an interesting read.

I dont think its necessary, its very complex and exponentially wasteful. Why would the universe operate like that? Wouldnt it be simple?

The link you give is the theory, I was looking for a paragraph that suumed it up eloquently. However I read through and found this, which is helpful

Quote:
When we stand in the dark and look at a star a hundred light years away, not only have the retarded light waves from the star been traveling for a hundred years to reach our eyes, but the advanced waves generated by absorption processes within our eyes have reached a hundred years into the past, completing the transaction that permitted the star to shine in our direction.

That basically is saying that the past is influenced as much by the future (or is intrinsically intertwined) as it generally understood that history shapes the future. Awesome, Easy, and requires no multiverse extravaganza to explain freewill.
post #62 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

What is faith though?

According to KJV in Hebrews:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Evidence....not 'belief' - evidence.

What do you mean by 'Gnostic'? There were many Gnostic groups and many contradicted each other.

Do you follow any particular theology?

I use the term "Gnostic" simply to mean "to know", which is, "what I know to be true"... which of course, evolves over time.

I walk the path many consider to be the most dangerous - I take what I read, what I sense, what I experience, and develop my own beliefs.

The most recent text I completed (and it literally nearly drove me insane, be very careful before you undertake it) was Course In Miracles, about 3-4 years ago now. Never have I found something so profound and so challenging, yet with a lot of truth in it. Yet it is not the be all and end all, because once you finish it the book talks about how we can then listen to the Voice and be guided from then on. Spirituality indeed is a journey, not a destination nor an event.

.............

As for your quote, the KJV says
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

It is, like many things in the Bible, a play on words, this time regarding "evidence". Our common understanding of evidence is that, we must have some evidence to believe something. But here the message is that faith is something that requires no evidence at all, it is beyond evidence itself. In that faith generates its own evidence.

Although you do raise a good point, faith and evidence can cause each other. Let's say I need to have faith, there may be many cases where I see evidence of God's love and grace, which bolsters my faith. But at the same time, because I have faith, what I perceive and create may also generate examples of God's love and grace.

BTW most other versions of the Bible say:

New International Version (©1984)
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

American Standard Version
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

http://bible.cc/hebrews/11-1.htm
post #63 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

No, Science is not outside "faith, not as something you hope for, but something you just *know*".

The bedrock of Mathematics which is the bedrock of Science itself sits squarely and utterly on faith. Faith that the few Axioms are true, because there is no way to prove them. It is a non-religious faith, but it is faith interwoven into absolutely everything implicitly. Without that unyielding faith, even if unrecognized by most, Science as we know it would not be possible.

Good point. Indeed... That is why I see faith as like the source of many things. When I was doing my Science degree, it was only in my Honours year where I did a research project I experienced what an actual genetics lab was like with published professors and postdocs.

We were looking at molecules, proteins, genes, etc. that regulated brain development before birth. So of course the molecular biology approach is to try and show causation and defined interactions of one thing leading to another. I was talking to this professor and we were discussing, so, looks like A then makes B do this which results in C. Our lab's observation was around B leading to C, while A to B was in the published literature.

I asked, but okay, how do we know C is actually the result of B, or that A to B is sure? That is, C could come from X for all we know.

My professor fairly calmly said, "Well, then, do we really know anything?". At that point I "got" what modern Science is about, at least, in the fields of medicine and biology.

Most basic research in these areas do rely on a faith that our working knowledge and previous knowledge is something worthwhile and enough to build upon.
post #64 of 67
BTW, someone mentioned to me the May 2011 apocalypse being thrown around by various Christian groups... and somehow I stumbled upon the Muslim version of the apocalypse:

That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur'an, 21:104)

They do not measure Allah with His true measure. The whole Earth will be a mere handful for Him on the Day of Resurrection the heavens folded up in His right hand. Glory be to Him! He is exalted above the partners they ascribe! (Qur'an, 39:67)

Christianity talks about Christ coming "back" to earth and raising everyone up, the rapture, etc. Then everyone deserving would go to Heaven.

But the Muslim version is a little more aggressive, it talks about "folding up Heaven".
post #65 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

BTW, someone mentioned to me the May 2011 apocalypse being thrown around by various Christian groups... and somehow I stumbled upon the Muslim version of the apocalypse:

That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur'an, 21:104)

They do not measure Allah with His true measure. The whole Earth will be a mere handful for Him on the Day of Resurrection the heavens folded up in His right hand. Glory be to Him! He is exalted above the partners they ascribe! (Qur'an, 39:67)

Christianity talks about Christ coming "back" to earth and raising everyone up, the rapture, etc. Then everyone deserving would go to Heaven.

But the Muslim version is a little more aggressive, it talks about "folding up Heaven".

Why is that more aggressive?

Which heaven does it mean? There are seven heavens in the Qur'an.

Also Christ comes back to earth in the Muslim version too.

I would say that so far - most of the Islamic prophecies have come true, whereas the orthodox Christian ones have not really. Nor are they really that impressive.

In the Islamic conception though there are numerous things that have to happen before Christ returns and these I think were very difficult to predict in the 7-10th centuries when they were stated.

Food has 'no blessing' in it
A few days travel can happen in a couple of hours.
You will be able to talk to someone on the other side of the world and see them
Iraq will be attacked
Muslims will make very large and grand mosques but there will be wrong teaching in them
Muslims will number in the millions but will not be the believers they originally were
Something will be implanted in people's hips to enable them to talk to others in different countries

And many more.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #66 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why is that more aggressive?

Which heaven does it mean? There are seven heavens in the Qur'an.

Also Christ comes back to earth in the Muslim version too.

I would say that so far - most of the Islamic prophecies have come true, whereas the orthodox Christian ones have not really. Nor are they really that impressive.

In the Islamic conception though there are numerous things that have to happen before Christ returns and these I think were very difficult to predict in the 7-10th centuries when they were stated.

Food has 'no blessing' in it
A few days travel can happen in a couple of hours.
You will be able to talk to someone on the other side of the world and see them
Iraq will be attacked
Muslims will make very large and grand mosques but there will be wrong teaching in them
Muslims will number in the millions but will not be the believers they originally were
Something will be implanted in people's hips to enable them to talk to others in different countries

And many more.

By aggressive I mean more all-encompassing.
post #67 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

By aggressive I mean more all-encompassing.

Seems an odd choice of word...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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