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Italian Sportsmanship

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-10481156,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-10481156,00.html</a>

So now I get it. It´s only ok to tell the world how superior you are when you´re a "footballing nation". When you´re "just" Korea you just have to sit down and be quiet, even when you win.

Of course FIFA will not interfere. No, that would mean not acting like a corrupt bunch of so and sos for a change.

I was happy to see France go out but now I´m delighted to see Italy head home. May they never win anything again as long as this guy is alive.

It gets better...

<a href="http://msn.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,1-1054859,00.html" target="_blank">http://msn.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,1-1054859,00.html</a>

And here I was thinking refereeing errors are part of football. The Italians seem to have forgotten all the penalties they got by falling over at the slightest presence of a defenders leg. Cheats. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: macvasco ]</p>
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will win it by a better deed.
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post #2 of 41
Now why am I not surprised?

P A T H E T I C

- T.I.
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post #3 of 41
And Europeans criticize American football fans... to think!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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post #4 of 41
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>And Europeans criticize American football fans... to think!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don´t think "Europeans" criticise American soccer fans do "we"?

I think the US performed very well and played very impressively against Germany. I think a lot of people agree with me on that. I can even see the US maintaining this level at the next World Cup. It´s difficult to move on from being a quarter final team to a title contender.
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
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You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #5 of 41
I dont blame the Italians for being upset about the whole issue.

This is the second tournament in a row where they have been put out by basic bad decisions. In every match they played in this world cup they have had atleast 3 bad offside decisions against them, this is just bang out of line. They lodged a complaint to FIFA after the second match they played, nothing got done about it.
This just rubs salt into the wounds after the made up 4 mins of extra time on Euro2000, where they would have won.

I dont think i have ever seen as many bad decisions made against one side in a tournament, and there should be a FIFA enquiry into how this came about.


However the south Koreans played very well, the italians shoudl giev them credit for the performance because it was just plain impressive.
As for the Perugia manager sacking his Korean player, thats bang out of line too. Infact Italian clubs just buy Oriental asian players because of the 30% increase in merchandise sales they get.
Luckily for the player he has shown how good he is during this world cup,alot of clubs will be after him, and he should be able to do alot better than Perugia anyway.


BTW im an England fan, im not Italian.
And i admire Englands performance during this world cup, getting past Nigeria,Argentina,Sweden and Denmark is no mean feat and in any other ordinary world cup this would have meant they would have won it.
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post #6 of 41
Yeah, the collective Italian reaction has been just a wee bit melodramatic, but that's what Italians are good at -- melodrama.

Law suits by TV companies because Italy isn't in the finals? Firing a player because he played on his national team? It shows a real lack of perspective on the people's part. Pssst... hey guys, even when we lose in baseball we don't get this silly! Despite rumors you may have heard, 'tis only a sport.
post #7 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by macvasco:
<strong>

Of course FIFA will not interfere. No, that would mean not acting like a corrupt bunch of so and sos for a change.

I was happy to see France go out but now I´m delighted to see Italy head home. May they never win anything again as long as this guy is alive.

And here I was thinking refereeing errors are part of football. The Italians seem to have forgotten all the penalties they got by falling over at the slightest presence of a defenders leg. Cheats. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: macvasco ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


The penalties they have got are just as bad as any other team during this tournament, every1 dives these days. Infact i have counted more acting from turkey and Brazil than the italians this tournament.

Rfereeing blunders are a part of the game, but to have as many as 3 every game + Euro200 injury time blunder is just plain ridiculous.
This amount of blunders against one team has not happened before, not even in Italia'90.

If FIFA would have sorted out **** linesmen earlier then this would never have happened.
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post #8 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by Toast:
<strong>I dont think i have ever seen as many bad decisions made against one side in a tournament, and there should be a FIFA enquiry into how this came about.</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't think FIFA would be the right people to look into this since they are responsible for it in the first place?

- T.I.
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post #9 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Yeah, the collective Italian reaction has been just a wee bit melodramatic, but that's what Italians are good at -- melodrama.

Law suits by TV companies because Italy isn't in the finals? Firing a player because he played on his national team? It shows a real lack of perspective on the people's part. Pssst... hey guys, even when we lose in baseball we don't get this silly! Despite rumors you may have heard, 'tis only a sport.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yeah, i hope for the Korean players sake he will find another and better club. Ashame that.

Only a sport? im afraid in England and Italy football is a religion, nothnig better than a packed congregation down the local pub errupting as England score.
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post #10 of 41
Well, true.

FIFA though i think are responsible for improving the quality of referee, so maybe its their problem to sort out, i cant think of any1 else really.
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post #11 of 41
The games were a disgrace and if I didnt know better I would say there was a conspiracy against Italy. 5 legitimate goals cancelled in 3 games. YOU try telling me that that isnt FVCKED up.

The game is about playing soccer/football, not about refs. That is why I dont understand why tv replays are STILL not permitted. The refs, some, even said, the ADMITTED they made mistakes, that the game is just getting faster and faster.

But GUESS WHAT... the referee part of this WorldCup was given to, guess, the Koreans to handle. And what a fine job they did at it.

Italy, while I dont agree with the 'defense' strategy they have, played VERY well, especially against Korea where Italy deserved without a doubt to win.

Im sorry but this whole WC has been TOTAL disgrace for the reffing. Im sure the Spanish and the USA will have things to say about this too. Spain got called against for a outside ball that was perfectly in, and in the USA match, a VERY CLEAR handball wasnt seen.

Pathetic.

Until TV/video replay is permitted as in many other sports I would propose to ban FIFA Football. This World Cup was dictated by the refs, not by the best teams.
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post #12 of 41
In regards to Perugia sending off the player, well, thats his own ideas and justified himself pretty well I believe.

I mean, come on, do you think it would be worse to fire him because of a childish impulse or, if your intention was that of 'revenge', then have him come back and play in the Serie A and leave him to the hudreds of other pissed off Italian players to take care of?

You get my point.

He got sacked because, officially, he offended Italy and was an affront to the club in that in Italy he played mediocrely and instead in Korea he played extremely well.

I would get pissed off too. In any case, if it had been my decision, well, see the scenario I just described. He would have had hell a thousand times worse.

Also, its not the players who should be made to blame... the whole point of the game is to SCORE no matter who you are playing against. The problem, as a I mentioned before, were the refs. Especially that Equadorian prick who looked like he was on fvcking drugs and whatnot.

The only thing I revel in is that France got so humiliated that it hurt.. but even in that case Henry's expulsion was VERY contraversial. Otherwise, France's undoing was totally their own making. Heh.


In anycase, 2004 is around the corner for the UEFA cup and we'll start, hopefully, seeing some good football again.. not this crap.
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post #13 of 41
I'm currently watching the replay of Korea vs. Spain ... so far, two goals scored by Spain have been called back. They were CLEARLY goals.

This is worse than figure skating.
post #14 of 41
WOW, I'm so suprised by your country's reactions to the world cup!

Here in the USA, widespread depression has envolped the country, our economy has crashed, and people are commiting suicide in the streets, and drug usage is at an all time high. ALMOST. The major news networks give about 30 seconds of coverage, and about, oh lets say, nobody cares. Most of the American citizens are to much into pansy *** baseball, that they dont notice how well thier soccer team does Although, the Italian reaction to the obvious mistakes in the refs judgment, isnt so wonderful either. At least the US did get away with one huge call (John O'Brian handball anyone?). The Italians didn't deserve any of that **** they got.
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post #15 of 41
There has been a lot of BS in the World Cup I think. Now do you see where I get my views on the NBA being fixed?

Italy got screwed. It would piss me off too.
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post #16 of 41
I didn't believe that World Cup games could be 'fixed' untill today. But after seeing Italia and Spain dismissed by flagrantly lop-sided refereeing I think there just might be something in it. So far, Belgium, Italy (who didn't help their cause by playing like shiat, but did enough to have won) and Spain have all be sent packing by abysmal officiating. Before this tournament began the Europeans were highly critical of so many 'world' cup officials coming from minor leagues around the world (Asia, N,S,&C.America, Africa, the Middle east). It was their contention that the most capable officials should manage the world cup; naturally, those most capable officials come from the big leagues of European football (Italy, Spain, England, France, Germany). I don't think the back rooms of FIFA (or the 'world' officials from football's second tier) were at all pleased with this critique from Europe.

Now we're seeing at best a mix of ineptitude and back-lash from said officials (against European squads) and at worst (with ever increasing suspicion) the results of a little back-room manouvering by the Koreans and Japanese. I wouldn't be too surprised to find some nice favors doled out to certain officials 6-12 months down the line.

Something stinks at this world cup. It's only saving grace, now, would be for Turkey and Germany both to reach the final so we can have at last one fairly (and competently) officiated match.
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post #17 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>And Europeans criticize American football fans... to think!
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

??? That's bullshit. Never heard, saw that. The US team got respect even before the WorldCup (they did some good games, against Germany too).

PB
post #18 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by Spiffster:
<strong>The major news networks give about 30 seconds of coverage, and about, oh lets say, nobody cares. Most of the American citizens are to much into pansy *** baseball, that they dont notice how well thier soccer team does...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, people around here were pretty enthused. The USA team was the subject at the water cooler and plenty of people got up at 4:30 am to watch them. But even when we have seen unfair results in events past, in general at least, we don't get quite so stricken.
post #19 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by Powerbook:
<strong>

??? That's bullshit. Never heard, saw that. The US team got respect even before the WorldCup (they did some good games, against Germany too).

PB</strong><hr></blockquote>

the only thing we blame americans for is trying to bastardise the game.
Its not called "soccer", its football.
it shouldnt have teams called "metrostars".
But apart from that we dont blame the US fans for much else.

Yeah they did well against Germany. But lets face it this is the worst German side in 40 years.
Considering how England put 5 past them not long back, americas performance was to be expected.
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post #20 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>In regards to Perugia sending off the player, well, thats his own ideas and justified himself pretty well I believe.

I mean, come on, do you think it would be worse to fire him because of a childish impulse or, if your intention was that of 'revenge', then have him come back and play in the Serie A and leave him to the hudreds of other pissed off Italian players to take care of?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The bad behaviour towards the Korean player would have lasted about a month, maybe less. The same thing happened When Gianfranco Zola scored for Italy against England in 1997, even his chelsea fans gave him **** for weeks. But after that they saw sense and now as he is about to retire he is a Chelsea hero.
And us English fans take the game just as seriously as the Italians.

It would be bad, but it would have faded.
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post #21 of 41
A lot of these pro sports organizations are simply corrupt.
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post #22 of 41
I don't buy for a second all the conspiracy theories and the accusations about the games being fixed.

It's just bad officiating on some games, that's all.

To those who say Korea is being "protected" by the refs, I ask this: What about Japan then?. If Korea got to the semi-finals with fixed games, why didn't they do the same for Japan as well, since they're co-hosts after all?

There've been a few bad decisions in this tournament, but there always are. FIFA should just stop being stubborn about the video replay thing, that's all.

I don't know how many people here remember Spain 1982, when Italians won the World Cup. They had simply fouled their way to the trophy, injuring their opponents' players, ripping their jerseys and everything else while the referees looked the other way. It was Maradona's first World Cup and at one point he was so frustrated with the fouls constantly being committed on him by the Italians without any calls from the ref, that he launched into a flying side-kick and took one of the guys that had been harassing him down. He was ejected and the Italians went on to win the match. They played a similar game with Brazil. They had a defender named Gentile, who was dubbed "the butcher" by the media.
post #23 of 41
If you compare the Korean and Japanese ethic around the world you will find the world is more ammenable to a Korean philosophy than a Japanese one. Having first hand experience with this, I can fairly say that a good many foreign people will find themselves at home doing business with Koreans yet dumbfounded by the peculiarities of dealing with the Japanese. To most of the world, the Japanese are simply too alien to form any coherent partnership. Even with the US, Japan's greatest 'friend', they seem to deal with each other in little more than veiled contempt.

With that in mind, it bears mentioning that I don't really think any 'conspiracy' is taking place. (Also, most of the things that pass for 'conspiracy' are really just common interest and implicit understanding, more like 'friendship' and politics) Italy has not done itself any favors at this world cup, and based on the quality of their preparation they certainly didn't deserve any better than what they got, but based on the rules of the game they were right to expect better. The Korean team has done all you could ask of it, they've played their hearts out, they cannot be faulted for the officiating. or for their style of play.

But Portugal, Italy and Spain all got beaten by bad calls (re: Korea) -- as did Belgium and Turkey (re: Brazil). Only Germany has managed to keep their fate in their own hands, with luck and goal-tending). European teams are exceptionally unpopular with 'football' contingents throughout FIFA. They don't appreciate the superior attitude (OK, arrogance), better status/players/money, and media attention afforded to Europe. Latin America makes a legitimate claim to the true seat of football genius, bt even they routinely lose their best to Spain and Italy. Don't discount this. People outside Europe are busily making friends, they will support each other and implicitly band together against European sides. Nothing is spoken but the desires of each are clearly understood. They're tired of being looked at as the second class of football and have made a quick study of football bureacracy. I wouldn't call it conspiracy, I'd call it politics. We are witnessing an awakening of both world football players and politicos.

In four years time ANY Asian side will be handily decimated by any European side it faces. Europe will return in 2006 with revenge on their minds.
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post #24 of 41
The excuse that the Italians were doing the Korean player a favor by dumping him and preventing unpleasant times is a crock of **** . If they were genuinely concerned about how he would be treated, the professional way to handle that is to talk to the player and see what his concerns are. You don't do people favors that they didn't even ask for, not if they didn't even do anything wrong as was the case here. That would be the mature way to deal with that issue. Also, they may well have had every right to dump him based on his club play. But we all know based on the timing that this had nothing to do with his club play and was strictly a petty reaction to a loss.
post #25 of 41
Sport, even Italian sport has no shortage of rich retards owning teams. Some are loud mouths and some aren't. The reaction of Perugia's owner is just PR designed to cash in on Nationalistic and Racist sentiment. Stupid and unfortunate, especially since Ahn Joon Huan was already gone before the World-Cup began. His stint at Perugia was a total write-off. He was supposed to come in and score goals. His conditioning was never there: he rarely managed to play complete games, and only scored 5 goals in the 30 matches he was actually played in. Everyone (even AJH himself) fully expected that he would be dropped from the team when his contract was up. Even his current Korean national coach admitts that AJH's conditioning was a major problem at the beginning, and that he didn't start to seriously work at it untill faced with an ultimatum -- start running, or leave.

Ahn Joon Huan is a player with something to prove, and he's playing like it. He was not dropped because of his international performance against Italy. However, Perugia's ownership has made completely unacceptable comments. They should be fined by the Italian football association and by FIFA. Club leagues in Europe have a cosmopolitan complexion, players must be free to participate in international contest without fear of repraisal.
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post #26 of 41
Actually, here in the States, if someone was fired that way, the ensuing law suit would be a no-contest, and the damages paid would be HUGE.

Firing someone because they played well against your national team? I don't think so. The guy would probably get 100 million dollars.

Is it really legal to do this kind of thing in EU?
post #27 of 41
If its in his contract why shouldn´t it? I mean if people starte to dislike a club because of one of its players it could hurt that club significantly economically.

Here in Europe its a human right to get food at the table, not to play for some club just because they hired you at one point

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post #28 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>If its in his contract why shouldn´t it? I mean if people starte to dislike a club because of one of its players it could hurt that club significantly economically.

Here in Europe its a human right to get food at the table, not to play for some club just because they hired you at one point

&lt;Anders trying to start another US vs. Europe fight )&gt;</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course they should be able to get rid of a player if they're not happy with his performance, but that's not what's happening here.

If the guy didn't perform while he was in Italy, why did they keep him until now? Besides, the owner of the club came out and openly said that the reason he's firing the guy is because he scored against Italy and it hurt his stupid national pride.

That would be unacceptable here, you cannot fire someone on a whim, because he hurt your national pride. You can only fire someone because they didn't do their job well. And apparently this guy was doing well enough, until he scored against Italy. Then, all of a sudden it's like, "Well, he hadn't been playing this well in Italy, he was underperforming. Bullsh!t.

If your teams fans are stupid enough to be upset with a player because he did his best for his national team, tough luck. Then, instead of firing the guy maybe you should talk to him and reach a settlement and part your ways gracefully.

Not to mention this is blatantly racist, because he's definitely not the first guy playing in an Italian club to score against Italy in the world cup. He's just the first Asian to do so.
post #29 of 41
Thread Starter 
I disagree with too many people here to get in to this further but I will say this:

Italy, as well as other countries, has also been on the positive side of mistakes by referees. More than once. So they shouldn´t complain if it goes against them somtimes.

I´m not denying mistakes were made. I´m saying they´re big cheats and they got what was long coming to them.

I´m not saying they´re the only ones either. I´d love for Rivaldo to be suspended for life after that face clutching bull. Yes, everybody does cheat these days but that doesn´t make it ok. If I were a ref and I would see it he would be off. Sadly, refs don´t have the gall to stand up to the so called "big" (must be in height because it´s certainly not in grace) players because FIFA will sack them.

The whole bunch is corrupt and it could do with some sweeping. Where is judge Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis when you need him?
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #30 of 41
As i recall, the Italians werent the only big foulers in the '82 world cup. Germany were also responsible for alot of injury.
And the Italians didnt win that world cup because of major fouling, they also had some very talented midfielders and an excellent striker in Paulo Rossi. and really this more than anything else was the reason for them winning.
In comparison to this world cup, that was pretty minor. There werent nearly as many incidents in the 82 world cup. People who saw the 82 world cup singled out italy as foulers just because they won it. In actual fact, alot of teams played horrifically, Germany was one, and Argentina were another.

There is no such thing as this economical distress that could occur to Perugia.
Perugia fans will not stop supporting their team, thats just not how it works in Serie A. Perugia fans are very dedicated and no matter what player they had in their team they would still support them.
Trezeguet scored the winning goal in Euro2000, Italy hated him, the Juventus fans didnt particularly like him. But it didnt cause any financial problem for Juventus. and this is not down to the teams size.
What you have to realise is that not only would no financial distress occur to Perugia, The merchandise sales would boom thanks to the new Korean love for the player, and the team.
Italian clubs buy Asian players just to see an increase in merchandise sales and to attract buyers of stock.
Their merhcandise gets a huge boost when they sign one of these players, never mind when they are as popular as this Korean is to the Korean fans.
Perugia, and the Italian club owner was acting like a twat.

Italy arent big cheats, they cheat and have cheated no more than Argentina, Brazil, or France.
I assure you , if you count the amount of incidents that have occured when Argentina have been playing they will roughly equate to Italys'.

This sort of bad refereeing has occured once too often for Italy. It was alot to take in the Euro2000 final, that was just blatent bad timekeeping. Having 2-3 bad crucial decisions against you in a world cup in every single match you play is just plain attrocious, and the sad thing is it means your team has no chance of winning.
this sort of bad refereeing has never happened before, sure there have been abd incidents, but never has a team been handicapped in every single match 2-3 times.

You said it yourself, they have been on positive side of decisions, as well as other teams.
They have had just as many positive decisions as the other teams, and that is life. So a few bad decisions would have to be acceptable, but having consecutive terrible decisions 2-3 times in every match, eventually costing you your place in the tournament, this after coming off a refereeing blunder in Euro2000. Well, thats just not fair.

You cant blame italy for being upset.
you cant blame them for lodging complaints.
But suggesting a cover up and match fixing is a bit ridiculous.
And sacking a player for trying to be the best player he can possibly be, that is inexcusable.

Either way i suppose Italy, FIFA, Perugia have all behaved like pre-pubescent arrogant ****heads really. oh well.
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post #31 of 41
I agree with your sentiments on Rivaldo marcvasco.
Not only that, he does look like a shifty character too.
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post #32 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by Toast:
<strong>
And the Italians didnt win that world cup because of major fouling, they also had some very talented midfielders and an excellent striker in Paulo Rossi </strong><hr></blockquote>

In my mind, Spain 1982 will be one of the worst world cups ever, no matter what you say. If Italy has any players to really thank, it should be Dino Zoff not Paulo Rossi, the one tournament wonder.

Same for that European Championship that the Danes won. It was a black page for me in the history book of football. Teams like that were the reason FIFA changed the rules to disallow goalies handling passes, and made it a direct red card for deliberate fouls on scoring positions.

That's just how I feel anytime a team wins such a big tournament by cowardly defensive play, much fouling, and just trying to disrupt opponents' plays instead of making their own.

It's like the difference between European basketball where it's common for games to end with scores in the sixties and seventies vs. the NBA. Guess who the world likes to watch?
post #33 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by timortis:
<strong>

Of course they should be able to get rid of a player if they're not happy with his performance, but that's not what's happening here.

If the guy didn't perform while he was in Italy, why did they keep him until now? Besides, the owner of the club came out and openly said that the reason he's firing the guy is because he scored against Italy and it hurt his stupid national pride.

That would be unacceptable here, you cannot fire someone on a whim, because he hurt your national pride. You can only fire someone because they didn't do their job well. And apparently this guy was doing well enough, until he scored against Italy. Then, all of a sudden it's like, "Well, he hadn't been playing this well in Italy, he was underperforming. Bullsh!t.

If your teams fans are stupid enough to be upset with a player because he did his best for his national team, tough luck. Then, instead of firing the guy maybe you should talk to him and reach a settlement and part your ways gracefully.

Not to mention this is blatantly racist, because he's definitely not the first guy playing in an Italian club to score against Italy in the world cup. He's just the first Asian to do so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I really don´t want to defend to Italian club but:

How do you determine if a football player is performing good or bad? The answer isn´t if he plays well on the field but if he makes money for the club. The Italian club will suffer economically if he continued to play there. They would be the club where the person that sent Italia out of the World Cup plays and if he wears Carlsberg/Nike/Coca Cola/Whatever on his shirt that company will suffer and the the sponsor agreement will be much less worth. Thats how things are in a capitalist world. It isn´t the song of birds, the beauty of the landscape, the friendlyness of people or the greatness of a football player that counts. It only counts if any of that will produce cash and in this case a great football player means less cash than a not so great one. The system only understands one code: Money/no money and everything is translated to that.

Nicklas Luhmann has written tons of stuff about this. Go buy "Soziale Systeme". Or go read some Habermas who are more critical of such a society than Luhmann.

We can lament that we live in a capitalist society but that is how things work in our society
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #34 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

I really don´t want to defend to Italian club but:

How do you determine if a football player is performing good or bad? The answer isn´t if he plays well on the field but if he makes money for the club. The Italian club will suffer economically if he continued to play there. They would be the club where the person that sent Italia out of the World Cup plays and if he wears Carlsberg/Nike/Coca Cola/Whatever on his shirt that company will suffer and the the sponsor agreement will be much less worth. Thats how things are in a capitalist world. It isn´t the song of birds, the beauty of the landscape, the friendlyness of people or the greatness of a football player that counts. It only counts if any of that will produce cash and in this case a great football player means less cash than a not so great one. The system only understands one code: Money/no money and everything is translated to that.

Nicklas Luhmann has written tons of stuff about this. Go buy "Soziale Systeme". Or go read some Habermas who are more critical of such a society than Luhmann.

We can lament that we live in a capitalist society but that is how things work in our society </strong><hr></blockquote>

money is money, but if the italian club fired him just because he make a goal against Italy, then it's means that the tifosi are pathetic.

Really there is a life after football ...
post #35 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>


money is money, but if the italian club fired him just because he make a goal against Italy, then it's means that the tifosi are pathetic. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree


[quote]<strong>Really there is a life after football ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree completly. There is life both before and after football (Le Tour for instance. ) During? I´m not quite sure.
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post #36 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by timortis:
<strong>

In my mind, Spain 1982 will be one of the worst world cups ever, no matter what you say. If Italy has any players to really thank, it should be Dino Zoff not Paulo Rossi, the one tournament wonder.

Same for that European Championship that the Danes won. It was a black page for me in the history book of football. Teams like that were the reason FIFA changed the rules to disallow goalies handling passes, and made it a direct red card for deliberate fouls on scoring positions.

That's just how I feel anytime a team wins such a big tournament by cowardly defensive play, much fouling, and just trying to disrupt opponents' plays instead of making their own.

It's like the difference between European basketball where it's common for games to end with scores in the sixties and seventies vs. the NBA. Guess who the world likes to watch?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed spain was one of the worst world cups ever. I have not or will not say anything against that, i dont know where u got the notion that i have backed that particular world cup. I suggest you re-read my posts and try not to comment in haste next time.
Dino zoff was a great keeper and a good tactician, however whether or not Paulo rossi was a one tournament wonder or not you cannot single him out, he played very well in this world cup. He was a strikers striker, a goal poacher. And seeing as we are talking about players in this world cup and not players in general you have to give Paulo rossi credit for what he achieved, whether he was a one tournament wonder or not.

Again, i repeat. You cannot single out Italy in this tournament as being the "bad guys". It wasnt only italy that were fouling badly. As i have said before Germany were very bad aswell, and Argentina were too. The reason why people blame Italy is just because they ended up winning it. If you bother to look at a few tapes of the tournament then you will see that Italy are not he only team to blame. This is not coincidence as the 70s and 80s were bad times for fouling in the game.

Italy did not utilise "cowardly defensive play", cowardly defensive play is play when you defend and only defend. What italy utilised to their advantage (much credit must be given to Zoff) is defensive play breaking on the counter attack. It might not be entertaining for you to watch, but football is a sport, a game, a way of life, and it is not meant to look pretty.
This counter attack mentality is present in the Tardelli goal, one of quite a few examples.

"much fouling"- like i said, look at the footage and you will see italy werent the only ones in the tournament.

Trying to disrupt opponents plays is a part of the game, without disrupting opponents plays is what makes football interesting. As for making their own, they did, otherwise they would not have won it. Only the plays they did make did not suit you, and alot of people. I didnt find it particularly fascintaing but the counter attack ploy is a perfectly valid one and is part of the game, as it should be.

You cannot hold a grudge against a team that plays in a way you dont like, or you dont enjoy. The tactics which Italy used at the time werent new or revolutionary or even cheating. They fouled as much as other teams like Germany, and they played on the counter attack.

I can understand exactly what you mean, i didnt find it a facinating world cup either. But it was withing the rules, and is part of the game. It is part of why we love it so much, different tactics, different ideas, competing to win.


I dont know **** about basketball.
I grew up on football, and i will always be a Hammers supporter.
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post #37 of 41
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>Really there is a life after football ...</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, tennis . . .

- T.I.
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post #38 of 41
[quote]There is life both before and after football (Le Tour for instance. )<hr></blockquote>And at least those (Italian) riders don't take any drugs . . .

- T.I.

[ 06-24-2002: Message edited by: The Installer ]</p>
MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Late 2013) / 2.6 GHz Intel Core i5 / 8GB RAM / 500GB SSD
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post #39 of 41
Well, now that Germany beat Korea, I wonder what the Italian conspiracy theorists will say next.
post #40 of 41
Check my European vs 'rest of world' officials political summary. Korea-Germany had a European (Swiss) official. First one Korea faced, first time they lost. Like I said before, I'm not thinking conspiracy so much as politics, but the trend holds.
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