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Sensational lawsuit accuses Apple of turning iPhone 3G into "iBrick" - Page 3

post #81 of 175
Apple should provide a way to update to any arbitrary version. My 3G was not updated for a long time. iOS4 came out and I did not want it. But I had to go through a bunch of steps to update from 3.1x to 3.1.3 (last version before 4). It should have been an option in the iTunes iPhone window. Like "Update to iOS 4, or choose a custom update to an older version..." etc.
post #82 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

Look... I'm not claiming Apple is guilty of anything. The lawsuit, I believe, is that Apple purposely crippled the 3G, after claiming it was supported with the new OS release, to force users to purchase a new iPhone by making the 3G virtually useless. That's the lawsuit. I'm simply arguing that they may have merit, and you need to let the evidence be brought forth and presented before passing judgment. Too many of you people are fanatical and Apple simply can't do any wrong. You're no better than the Microsoft zealots that defend them.

I know what the lawsuit is about.. I've read the article. Beside, I am not defending Apple. I am pointing out that the claim that Apple crippled 3G with iOS 4.0 update to force people to buy iPhone 4 is BS.
I mean think about it. The problem lasted two months during which the iPhone 4 was sold out. If Apple wanted to sell more iPhone 4s then they would have waited until the iPhone 4 demand slowed and pushed an update that crippled the 3G and maybe the 3GS.
post #83 of 175
In the old days, we bought a product, hoped it worked well and recommended it (or not) to all our friends or family. A company's success was based upon just that.

Today, we sue the livin' crap out of anything that doesn't make us happy.
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post #84 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Out of curiosity, has MS ever been sued for selling a new version of Windows that was deemed acceptable by the HCL and spec sheet, but subsequently made it run slower than the previous version of Windows? For instance, everyone that upgraded from WinXP to Vista?

if the answer were Yes, what difference would that make?

And if the answer is no?

I don't understand the importance of that information.
post #85 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcphoto View Post

My Verizon contract expired in November of '09 and I came back to AT&T only because of the iphone. I read the early reviews of OS4 and it sounded like I would not get folders and a couple other features. I installed the update and was amazed by the lag in starting apps and using the keyboard, especially in texting. Then Jobs commented on how slow the 3G was in testing... How about supporting a device at least while it's under warranty? According to AT&T, I am eligible for an upgrade in June of 2011. The only way that I will spend my money with Apple and AT&T is if they address this problem directly or Sprint may be my way of protesting. I have been an Apple computer user since 1993 and I love their products but this felt rather malicious on their part.

I sympathize, but if your goal is to remediate their behavior (which I don't believe it intentional, but that's a different post), then taking your business to Sprint or Verizon may make you feel better, but it won't change Apple's behavior, because they've already made their money when you bought the iPhone 3G. The effort to make the new iOS work on the iPhone 3G represents a negative return on their investment: it won't help them sell more iPhone 3G handsets. Not buying an iPhone 4 won't make that fact any less of a fact.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #86 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If by obsolete you mean its production, then why do you expect ever CE you own to be produced for at least 3 years from the time you buy it?

How could he possibly mean that? It would make no sense at all to use the word in such a manner.
post #87 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So youre claiming that Apple purposely wrote iOS 4.0 for the iPhone 3G to cripple a portion (but not all) of the devices.

Reread the story. It is not his claim; it is the claim made by the plaintiff. Just saying.
post #88 of 175
Did anyone actually read the law suit?

I think a lot of you are being misled as to the intent of the lawsuit. The lawsuit is explaining that Apple misled users into believing that iOS 4.0 was going to enhance the 3G when in fact it didn't (according to the lawsuit, aka false advertising). This goes further and says Apple didn't provide a way to downgrade to other OS's without resorting to ways that will break the end user contract and thus break warranty for their iPhone. Because of those two things, the lawsuit is claiming that Apple intended it this way to have customers buy newer devices.

Personally I think the first point of false advertising is, well, false. Second point of not having a way to revert back is a good point showing that you're pretty much stuck with the upgrade if you still want your warranty. Third point is completely BS.

For those saying "its a 2 year old device get over it", does that mean that the 3-year Apple Care I bought is useless after 2 years?

Apple shouldn't have given 3G iPhones the chance to upgrade to 4.0, but they should still support security patches for it...
post #89 of 175
I upgraded my 3G to iOS4 and it was almost completely unusable for almost 2 months, text entry was really slow, google maps unusable even now it is still slow and I have to re-boot it constantly to get the maps features to work especially the route finder.

I am totaly dissatisfied with Apple waxing about how great iOS 4 is and prompting and urging me to upgrade and if there testing did know this makes me really really mad. Perhaps the marketing juggernaut at Apple glossed over the engineers - who knows? but that is a sad indictment if it is true.

All these totally invalid arguments that its old hardware are totally of the mark because its not like I could get out of my 2 year contract without suffering a financial penalty. Apple should have only let 3GS user uppgrade, then this lawsuit wouldn't be needed

I for one am hoping for some $ retribution caused by this terrible upgrade. I can't tell you the untold number of times I needed to find an address or check for traffic congestion and was unable to because of the disasterous upgrade.

They dropped the ball on this one. I for one will never again upgrade immediately because I don't trust them any more. Fool me once... fool me twice...

Originally Posted by Rickers - 2014

Cook & Co will bury Apple.  They can only ride Steve's ghost for so long.  Steve == Apple and Apple == Steve.  

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Originally Posted by Rickers - 2014

Cook & Co will bury Apple.  They can only ride Steve's ghost for so long.  Steve == Apple and Apple == Steve.  

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post #90 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Out of curiosity, has MS ever been sued for selling a new version of Windows that was deemed acceptable by the HCL and spec sheet, but subsequently made it run slower than the previous version of Windows? For instance, everyone that upgraded from WinXP to Vista?

Not going to argue the slower vs faster argument, but will say that users were allowed to "downgrade" to Win XP without breaking any contracts...
post #91 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

[...]The 'bug' in this case is that Apple made two bad assumptions. The first was that 3g owners would upgrade their hardware. I mean why wouldn't you. The 4 is so much better than the 3g. The second assumption is that folks wouldn't upgrade their software because they would be smart enough to want to avoid any potential issues. [...]

Why wouldn't I?! Because my iPhone3G (hardware wise) works perfectly, and I am not planning to change it as long as it's a working piece of hardware.
I'll expect the manufacturer of my phone to either leave my phone working as advertised (that is, not to update the software to a version which doesn't work properly), or to take care of it and make sure if they will release a new software for to give me more features, that version will work at least as good as the old one, if not better.
All in all, I agree with the lawsuit as long as Apple will not do something about my dog lazy iOS4 in top of my ~2 years old iPhone3G.

Apple, how about an easy way to go back to iOS3?
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post #92 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

This claim is BS.

Based on that logic one can argue that MS crippled Vista because they wanted people to pay for the next Windows OS (Windows 7)

But is that a true claim? Obviously, the structure of the reasoning of your claim is similar to that of the lawsuit.

But the structure of the reasoning has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the two claims. Without adequate evidence, the lawsuit will fail. My guess is that they have something to hang their hat on.
post #93 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurbiesAndBeans View Post

Not going to argue the slower vs faster argument, but will say that users were allowed to "downgrade" to Win XP without breaking any contracts...

I wholeheartedly agree that Apple should allow some downgrade of iOS if a version isnt working out, but these users could have gotten a phone that worked simply by taking their complaint to someone that could help them. I cant feel sorry for people that chose to complain on the internet instead of getting Apple to get them a new phone after this happened.

PS: Doesnt MS charge for a downgrade option to XP from Windows 7? Imagine if Apple charged for that option.
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post #94 of 175
I would be suprised if someone had an IPHONE 3G which was 'turned into a brick' after updating to IOS 4 that took their phone into an Apple store and it either wasn't fixed or replaced. Yes the warranty may have run out, however if Apple knows that their software is buggy they are sympathetic to all that are affected.
post #95 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24

No, I mean support: replacement parts (I believe 5 years is law), software support, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Oh yeah?! Prove it! Prove that Apple is required to offer rich updates to their devices for 5 years. I think you have misunderstood what “support” means just as you’ve misunderstood what “obsolete” means.

Now I'm convinced that you have serious reading comprehension deficiencies... Where on Earth did I ever say the Apple was required to make software upgrades for 5 years? I said I believe they're required to make replacement parts for 5 years under law, and I did not state this as absolute fact. Someone else who posted here said the same thing about replacement parts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyhyde@me.com View Post

Consumer laws (at least in California) require a manufacturer to provide replacement parts and other support for five years after a product has been discontinued, IIRC.

Seriously, dude... Go back to grammar school and learn to make sense of what you're reading, and stop trying to imply people are saying things they aren't. You sound like a politician...
post #96 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Except that your second assumption isn't valid since Apple said iOS 4 was compatible with the 3G. They went further and explained that some functionality wouldn't be available (mutitasking, background pictures) because the hardware was constrained. This would mean, to any reasonable person, that Apple expected 3G users to update to iOS 4.

Everyone always says Apple's experience is superior because they control it top to bottom. Since the control the hardware and the software, they are the only source to rely on for compatibility. You can insult people all you like for having upgraded, but all they did was trust Apple.

I don't think the plaintiffs have a hope of winning the lawsuit, but Apple isn't completely blameless either as you point out.

I think Apple could cover off any problems of this type if they just provided an authorised method of downgrading an iOS device to a previous software version. I'm not sure they would do it as it makes them look bad and they probably want to cling to the belief that they can do no wrong, but it would be a fairly easy and sensible thing to do IMO.
post #97 of 175
A few salient points:

1) As has been pointed out numerous times (and ignored by many in the Kool-Aid crowd) the 3G was sold right up until June of this year. That means it is a current phone, not a two year old obsolete phone.
2) Do I think Apple deliberately tried to brick the 3G, no of course not. I had one and when I upgraded to iOS4 it became very slow and unpleasant to use.
3) Is Apple obligated to provide new OS's for older devices (or indeed any devices), of course not. They could have released iOS 4 for only the iPhone 4. However, if they do release an OS for a device, they are obligated to make sure it works properly before releasing it and telling people they can upgrade. Here, they dropped the ball and should be held accountable for it.
4) Given the number of issues with this whole release (hardware and software), while relatively small as a whole, they do seem to have been much larger than Apple's normal set of problems. I do think it a fair topic of discussion whether Apple's growth has led to a decline in quality control. Also relevant is whether their paranoia for secrecy prevents full testing, as in the antenna issue, which likely wasn't discovered so soon due to them all being in disguise cases.
post #98 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I wholeheartedly agree that Apple should allow some downgrade of iOS if a version isnt working out, but these users could have gotten a phone that worked simply by taking their complaint to someone that could help them. I cant feel sorry for people that chose to complain on the internet instead of getting Apple to get them a new phone after this happened.

PS: Doesnt MS charge for a downgrade option to XP from Windows 7? Imagine if Apple charged for that option.

To technically downgrade from Windows 7 to XP you would have had to upgrade from XP to Windows 7
post #99 of 175
Apple definitely should have let user easily downgrade OS. There's no excuse for that. Some people here wondered why Microsoft never get sued in such a case. Well for one thing Microsoft didn't sell PC so no motivation there. And another thing is you can downgrade easily. If you don't like Vista just pop in your XP disc. If you don't like Service Pack 2 just go to Control Panel and downgrade to any version of the same OS you had before.
There, you got your answer.
post #100 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuncyWeb View Post

In the old days, we bought a product, hoped it worked well and recommended it (or not) to all our friends or family. A company's success was based upon just that.

Today, we sue the livin' crap out of anything that doesn't make us happy.

In the old days, there wasn't a rush to push new products out. The Apple IIe reigned supreme for quite a long time. The original IBM PC had a long life span. That's not the case with the smartphone market.
post #101 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardryu View Post

that's funny. what about other companies to support previous models? people complain about that just like Apple iphone? I don't think so. Apple has a big problem that they do products obsolete so faster so that they tell us to buy new one? bull ****. now, Apple is multi billions company. but who knows? it would be suddenly tumbling down, back to old days? Apple is not MS. they can't survive for a long time. I bet it. they should do more gentle for customers.

Know several people still waiting for upgrade to Android 2 from phones newer than iPhone 3G, and the companies who make the phone keep pushing release date back.

That being said though, sounds like major issue is that Apple won't let you revert should an iOS update have serious side effects. Personally I'm smart enough to wait & see if there are adverse effects before I upgrade but I have to agree with this case that Apple needs to provide the option to revert, or in the least be willing to reset it for you should something go wrong.

The case may not make it far legally because the phone is so far out of warranty but a smart company like Apple should know that ignoring such situations can land them in a PR nightmare. I suspect Apple will settle this one quietly.
post #102 of 175
Downgrading the phone is not supported by Apple specifically because the phone is a radio and regulated by the FCC and similar government agencies around the world. The baseband software in the phone is designed so that the software cannot be downgraded and each OS version is designed to work with a specific version of the baseband software. People who claim they have successfully downgraded their phones may actually be running a phone where the OS is not taking advantage of bug fixes and enhancements in the baseband software.
post #103 of 175
I want to add that the best case Apple can make, if they want to fight, is to prove that every other phone OS can not be downgraded either so there's no ill-intention from Apple, just the nature of the devices.
I don't know if that's true though.
post #104 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurbiesAndBeans View Post

... For those saying "its a 2 year old device get over it", does that mean that the 3-year Apple Care I bought is useless after 2 years? ...

AppleCare plans for iOS devices are for 2 years, something one would think you would know if you had actually purchased it.
post #105 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIaddict View Post

"Apple disallowed the downgrading of the iPhone 3G from iOS 4 back to iOS 3.x"

This is the key. Apple should lose this lawsuit because they do not allow owners to go back to a more stable OS when a bug is encountered. They either need to issue patches immediately, or let people revert to a functional OS. There is no logical excuse not to do so.

Also, there were iPhone 3G's sold literally weeks before the iOS 4 dibacle. Some of the 3G's were 2 years old, but Apple will not be well served to suggest they do not have to support a product after a few weeks of it being discontinued, when many of them were still under warranty.

The patch came out about two weeks later..
post #106 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-J View Post

But is that a true claim? Obviously, the structure of the reasoning of your claim is similar to that of the lawsuit.

But the structure of the reasoning has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the two claims. Without adequate evidence, the lawsuit will fail. My guess is that they have something to hang their hat on.

You suggesting that it is a true claim that Apple intentionally made iOS 4 run poorly on iPhone 3Gs to get people to upgrade?

The aliens conducted your anal probe at the behest of the US Government too....
post #107 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

AppleCare plans for iOS devices are for 2 years, something one would think you would know if you had actually purchased it.

My apologies I was referring to my MBP's Apple Care which is 3 years. Nevertheless, someone who bought a 3G in say April 2010 is still under warranty even if they hadn't bought Apple Care.
post #108 of 175
Did they miss the fact that iOS 4.1 fixed the issue? Dumbass lawsuits!
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post #109 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul94544 View Post

I for one am hoping for some $ retribution caused by this terrible upgrade. I can't tell you the untold number of times I needed to find an address or check for traffic congestion and was unable to because of the disasterous upgrade

Just roll the thing back. How old is your 3G anyway? Did you purchase an AppleCare plan? If not, the original warranty was only a year anyway. I don't think you have much to lose by rolling it back. My 3G was dog-ass slow after upgrading to 4.0 so I rolled it back. Following the roll-back, iTunes treated it like a new phone and I just ignored the option to upgrade to 4.0/4.1. Since the iPhone 3G couldn't multitask, I wasn't missing much anyway. Why sit there and suffer with the damn thing hoping for reparations.
post #110 of 175
Shame on apple. This is embarrassing. They should have done better.

There is no excuse for the 4.0 sw making the 3G worse.
post #111 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

Shame on apple. This is embarrassing. They should have done better.

There is no excuse for the 4.0 sw making the 3G worse.

Except that the 3G has half as much RAM as the 3GS and a quarter of the RAM of the iPhone 4 and a processor that runs at 412MHz as opposed to 600MHz and 1GHz of the 3GS/4 respectively. Like others have said, they shouldn't even have made it available for upgrading to 4.0. It's hardware was obviously not really up to the task.
post #112 of 175
And yet again iPhone users prove themselves to be some of the whiniest brats on the planet. Yes, 4.0 slowed things down. It did NOT "brick" 3G phones. I had a 3G at the time and was irritated by some of the sluggishness (especially in maps), but it was livable. You can still use your phone, even if it is slow. Crying to a judge because an update made your phone less pleasant? REALLY? Do they honestly think that Apple was the first one to muck up older products with new software releases? F**king brats. Complain and make a stink to Apple. Enough people and they'll do something about it.

They might have a shred of a point if 4.1 didn't fix many of the issues. This is such a ludicrous, idiotic suit. Thanks for making iPhone users look bad YET AGAIN, you dicks.
post #113 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

Now I'm convinced that you have serious reading comprehension deficiencies... Where on Earth did I ever say the Apple was required to make software upgrades for 5 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

People who buy smartphones with an old version of Android, with no upgrade potential at all to a newer version, and find it difficult or nearly impossible to actually put any apps on it at all, should sue and stop this madness.

You may not have said Apple is required to provide software upgrades but you strongly imply it and other manufacturers should provide them.
post #114 of 175
Two words: tort reform.

Not tort elimination. Just meaningful reform that will curb predatory law firms and suits such as this.
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post #115 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Just roll the thing back. How old is your 3G anyway? Did you purchase an AppleCare plan? If not, the original warranty was only a year anyway. I don't think you have much to lose by rolling it back. My 3G was dog-ass slow after upgrading to 4.0 so I rolled it back. Following the roll-back, iTunes treated it like a new phone and I just ignored the option to upgrade to 4.0/4.1. Since the iPhone 3G couldn't multitask, I wasn't missing much anyway. Why sit there and suffer with the damn thing hoping for reparations.

The reason why I bought Apple computers , ipod's and iPhone the last 10 years is preciseley to avoid having to spend whole weekends rolling back, re-installing and generally fiddling with software and hardware. The last thing I want to do is waste my valuable time at the weekend tweaking a damed phoned! GET IT

I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO WITH MY TIME!!!!!!

I tried rolling back to OS 3.1 and it would NOT let me ! Of course if I really wanted to I could go an waste an entire weekend finding how to do it and do it. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT. hey I used to install Windows 2000 server on PC's years ago. I'm SO glad I no longer have to put up with buggy MS installs! But thats beside the point

Were you formerly a PC geek and used to this kind of procedure?

What about all the HYPE

It just works.. that Apple so prouldy trumpets

I think your rational is fundementally flawed!
its 2 years old , and worked fine and fast until this crappy iOS4
One thing I'm definately considering is getting a Droid 2 . it has HDMI and I can skype over 3G with it and there are other things too. I don't really wnat to go to Android if I can avoid it, but as far as I can tell its not going to be that great a switch and I have far more control over it's interface than with Apple's iPhone and if this experience is going to keep happening I'm losing nothing.

This espisode has caused me to question getting an iPhone4 because I feel that Apple cannot be trusted any more

EH?

Originally Posted by Rickers - 2014

Cook & Co will bury Apple.  They can only ride Steve's ghost for so long.  Steve == Apple and Apple == Steve.  

Reply

Originally Posted by Rickers - 2014

Cook & Co will bury Apple.  They can only ride Steve's ghost for so long.  Steve == Apple and Apple == Steve.  

Reply
post #116 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

I want to add that the best case Apple can make, if they want to fight, is to prove that every other phone OS can not be downgraded either so there's no ill-intention from Apple, just the nature of the devices.
I don't know if that's true though.

It is not true.

And even if it were, saying that "everybody else was doing it!" is seldom a defense beyond grammar school.
post #117 of 175
for the record this is the link to the iPhone software licence:
http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone.pdf

Section 7 is the disclaimer of warranties, which states you use the software "at your own risk" which I understand is the case for most consumer software including OS X and Windows.

It's intriguing that the same section in the iPhone 4 licence states makes the same statements but also acknowledges the disclaimers may not be valid in certain regions and countries.

http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone4.pdf
post #118 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

You suggesting that it is a true claim that Apple intentionally made iOS 4 run poorly on iPhone 3Gs to get people to upgrade?

The aliens conducted your anal probe at the behest of the US Government too....


"Nope"
post #119 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Just roll the thing back

From the story:

"Wofford contends that Apple disallowed the downgrading of the iPhone 3G from iOS 4 back to iOS 3.x "
post #120 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

Shame on apple. This is embarrassing. They should have done better.

There is no excuse for the 4.0 sw making the 3G worse.

Right. We should also sue Apple for not making Snow Leopard compatible with PowerMacs.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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