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Let the flags fly at half mast: England out of the World Cup

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
"Let the flags fly at half mast
Let this darkened hour drift past"
Thin Lizzy, 'Slow Blues'

<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> So near and yet so far. I think in sport you always hope for the unexpected, for the triumph of the unfancied and the underdog. And yes, you might get the occasional upset, but it has a way of reverting boringly to type at the end of the day. So just when the country thought England had a real chance after a string of victories, the team crashes out again and 1966 (the only time we've won the cup so far) recedes four years further into the past. Meanwhile Brazil will go on to win for the fifth time and the world will yawn at the sheer predictability of it all.
Ah well. It was fun while it lasted

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
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post #2 of 36
The Brazil vs England game was a stinker especially after Brazil got its second goal. I couldn't believe how ineffective they were against Brazil's team minus one key player.

But wow, the USA vs Germany match was very, very good and very, very close. I'd even say the USA team bested the Germans over-all. They had at least a half dozen good shots on goal to Germany's two or three shots.

What goes around comes around though and that handball by O'Brien against Mexico came back in the same form but with the roles reversed.

I'm quite satisfied after watching the game. There was just no stopping that Ballack header, and Sanneh's own headers just missed by inches!

Sanneh played an awesome game too, so did Hejduk and McBride.

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #3 of 36
well' they played like **** again, so Im glad. Perhaps the only countries they can be bothered to play well against are countries we've been to war with.

If I was paid £20000 a week, Id sure run like hell for 90 minutes in any heat until I dropped. Look at the way the USA chased the game when loosing to Germany, and Ireland when loosing to Spain. Look at the way S.Korea are playing. All these underdog teams at least have a passion and a desire for the win. Our boys, dont really seem to care, because they're so arrogant.
post #4 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by MarcUK:
<strong>
If I was paid £20000 a week, Id sure run like hell for 90 minutes in any heat until I dropped. Look at the way the USA chased the game when loosing to Germany, and Ireland when loosing to Spain. Look at the way S.Korea are playing. All these underdog teams at least have a passion and a desire for the win. Our boys, dont really seem to care, because they're so arrogant.</strong><hr></blockquote>


They (many European teams) are very arrogant. They always think they are winners and others are losers. Now they deserve to lose.
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post #5 of 36
European teams?

Are you sure you don't just mean Europeans?



"I kid! I kid!" - Triumph the Insult Comic Dog
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post #6 of 36
You guys are forgetting that England were the underdogs in this one.

They even said stuff before the game like :

"We may not have players that are individually as skilled as the Brazilians but our team-play and discipline will help us win... blah blah blah"

Typical stuff every Brazil opponent says. The English strategy was simple: "Let's just play defense with 10 people and if they make a mistake we can capitalize on it with Owen". And it worked too, until Ronaldinho did that amazing step-over sprint and Rivaldo hammered it home.

Even when they were one man down, Brazil were the only side that were making fancy footwork and exciting moves.

England plays a clumsy soccer. They've been doing the same thing forever: Kick the ball long and high into the penalty area and maybe someone can catch a header or a loose ball in the chaos. They depend on their opponents to make mistakes instead of being creative themselves like the South Americans.

That's why Brazil is going for their fifth, with possibly their 3rd final in the last 3 world cups, and boring teams like England, Sweden and Denmark have packed their bags and flown home.
post #7 of 36
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by MarcUK:
<strong>well' they played like **** again, so Im glad. Perhaps the only countries they can be bothered to play well against are countries we've been to war with.

If I was paid £20000 a week, Id sure run like hell for 90 minutes in any heat until I dropped. Look at the way the USA chased the game when loosing to Germany, and Ireland when loosing to Spain. Look at the way S.Korea are playing. All these underdog teams at least have a passion and a desire for the win. Our boys, dont really seem to care, because they're so arrogant.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that's it. The England team had the talent but not the attitude, that killer instinct you need to get to the very top. Maybe that has got a lot to do with excessive celebrity and stratospheric salaries. Brazil just cared that vital bit more about winning.
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post #8 of 36
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>The Brazil vs England game was a stinker especially after Brazil got its second goal. I couldn't believe how ineffective they were against Brazil's team minus one key player.

But wow, the USA vs Germany match was very, very good and very, very close. I'd even say the USA team bested the Germans over-all. They had at least a half dozen good shots on goal to Germany's two or three shots.

What goes around comes around though and that handball by O'Brien against Mexico came back in the same form but with the roles reversed.

I'm quite satisfied after watching the game. There was just no stopping that Ballack header, and Sanneh's own headers just missed by inches!

Sanneh played an awesome game too, so did Hejduk and McBride.

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Consistency is not a strong point with the current England squad. They can play superbly one game and direly the next as was, sadly, the case today.
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post #9 of 36
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>European teams?

Are you sure you don't just mean Europeans?



</strong><hr></blockquote>

Meow!
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post #10 of 36
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by timortis:
<strong>You guys are forgetting that England were the underdogs in this one.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's what I meant!
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post #11 of 36
Damn, I was pulling for the poms. We would've flown the union jack outside our house if they won the final (or we should've LOL my dad is English) I think England has had some great talent before but they always seem to disappoint in the World Cup. However Brazil is of course a very good team when they play like they are capable of playing. I didn't watch the game like I planned to so I can't really say how both sides played. Michael Owen had a goal I believe. Damn, guess that's the way things go. England in 2006!
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post #12 of 36
Yes, England lose to Brazil again.
I think you have hit the mark when you talk about the arrogance of the England team, but that can also include the arrogance of a lot of their supporters.
TV coverage via English broadcasters showed non stop "we WILL win, we WILL beat Brazil, we WILL win the world cup etc. etc. etc."
If England had won you dare not switch your TV on or read an English newspaper for at least 30 years 'cos you'd never hear the end of it!
No doubting the players talent, but at the end of the day the better team won,England were out played and out classed.
Brazil are my bet to win the cup
post #13 of 36
Brazil is perhaps one of the team who has the best chances to win the world cup.
post #14 of 36
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>Brazil is perhaps one of the team who has the best chances to win the world cup.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well....thanks for that contribution, powerdoc
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post #15 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Meanie:
<strong>

Well....thanks for that contribution, powerdoc </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well it's means that it's not a shame to lose against Brasil.
post #16 of 36
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>

Well it's means that it's not a shame to lose against Brasil. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, perhaps!
The Blue Meanie has just seen news reports showing David Seaman, the ponytailed England goalkeeper, in tears. At 38 he is too old to play in the next World Cup, and in fact I think he is retiring now. He may be paid vast amounts of money but you've got to feel a little bit sorry for him.
There's been a lot of blubbing in this World Cup!
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post #17 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Meanie:
<strong>He may be paid vast amounts of money but you've got to feel a little bit sorry for him.
There's been a lot of blubbing in this World Cup!</strong><hr></blockquote>EVERYONE screws up in their jobs once in a while, even powerdoc No big deal really.

Main thing is, it was (great) fun whilst it lasted. Mind you, try telling that to the Argentinians or the Italians

I guess the Argentinians can now concentrate on the Falklands again... the Spanish on Gibraltar, and the Italians on ridding all their teams of South Korean players. Who says we do not live in a political world?

We live in a political world,
Love don't have any place.
We're living in times where men commit crimes
And crime don't have a face

We live in a political world,
Icicles hanging down,
Wedding bells ring and angels sing,
clouds cover up the ground.

We live in a political world,
Wisdom is thrown into jail,
It rots in a cell, is misguided as hell
Leaving no one to pick up a trail.

We live in a political world
Where mercy walks the plank,
Life is in mirrors, death disappears
Up the steps into the nearest bank.

We live in a political world
Where courage is a thing of the past
Houses are haunted, children are unwanted
The next day could be your last.

We live in a political world.
The one we can see and can feel
But there's no one to check, it's all a stacked deck,
We all know for sure that it's real.

We live in a political world
In the cities of lonesome fear,
Little by little you turn in the middle
But you're never why you're here.

We live in a political world
Under the microscope,
You can travel anywhere and hang yourself there
You always got more than enough rope.

We live in a political world
Turning and a'thrashing about,
As soon as you're awake, you're trained to take
What looks like the easy way out.

We live in a political world
Where peace is not welcome at al,
It's turned away from the door to wander some more
Or put up against the wall.

We live in apolitical world
Everything is hers or his,
Climb into the frame and shout God's name
But you're never sure what it is.

Copyright © 1989 Special Rider Music "Political World" - Bob Dylan

- T.I.
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post #18 of 36
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by The Installer:
<strong>and the Italians on ridding all their teams of South Korean players.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, that was amazing, wasn't it? "Extraordinarily infantile" was the quote in one of the papers today
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post #19 of 36
Thread Starter 
Virtually every British newspaper today has a picture of England goalie David Seaman in tears after the
game. Want to see one? Oh <a href="http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002280891,00.html" target="_blank">go on</a> then, you masochistic so-and-sos...
Apparently he of the ill-advised pony-tail was completely <a href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11972309&method=full&siteid=5014 3" target="_blank">inconsolable</a> after the final whistle, breaking down in tears during a press conference and sobbing all the way through the manager's pep talk after the match. No doubt Groverat will say this makes him a limey wuss, but I don't know. At least it shows there was some genuine commitment there. It's just a shame the rest of the team couldn't show that kind of passion on the pitch instead of crashing out limply after vanquishing Argentina and dynamiting Denmark (if I can borrow a *cheesy* phrase from the sports pages...)

[ 06-23-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
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post #20 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Meanie:
<strong>Apparently he of the ill-advised pony-tail was completely <a href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11972309&method=full&siteid=5014 3" target="_blank">inconsolable</a> after the final whistle, breaking down in tears during a press conference and sobbing all the way through the manager's pep talk after the match.</strong><hr></blockquote>At least the fans at the airport managed to cheer up David by holding up a poster saying, "England has the best Seaman". I thought that was a cool/nice gesture

The greatest disaster is of course that Seaman now won't be cutting off his pony-tail, seeing that England are not becoming world champions <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

- T.I.
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post #21 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Installer:
<strong>At least the fans at the airport managed to cheer up David by holding up a poster saying, "England has the best Seaman". I thought that was a cool/nice gesture

The greatest disaster is of course that Seaman now won't be cutting off his pony-tail, seeing that England are not becoming world champions <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

- T.I.</strong><hr></blockquote>
TI i am impressed by your level of knowledge in Football

Just a sport as you said
post #22 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>
TI i am impressed by your level of knowledge in Football
</strong><hr></blockquote>Part of my job, you see

- T.I.
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post #23 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Installer:
<strong>Part of my job, you see

- T.I.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:eek: TI you are omniwhere !
post #24 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Meanie:
<strong>

I think that's it. The England team had the talent but not the attitude, that killer instinct you need to get to the very top. Maybe that has got a lot to do with excessive celebrity and stratospheric salaries. Brazil just cared that vital bit more about winning.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Its not neccesarily the salaries as much as its Englands manager.

Dont get me wrong, i rate Sven. But his style of managing doesnt work for English football.
English football depends on making a team, where each player knows each other and they all work together. Its a very similar mentality Germany used to have.
Svens' Managing skills are based on tactics, strategies and logically thought out planning. This, although effective in Italy and on the continent, is not the way English football works.
The best demonstration of this was in Euro 96, under Terry Venables, the England team were a Formidable force. He did not manage England by finding technical issues with the team. He found a good formation, he kept the same players in the squad and in the team so they got to know each others attributes. this created a team atmosphere and it meant England worked as a unit, especially coming forward. A demonstration of this is the Gascoine goal against scotland, Anderton knew exactly who was making the diagonal run and where to, it then only took a second of sheer brilliance to lob Hendry and smash it into the net.

Sven and his men are very talented, but his managing skills are straight out of Serie A. And im afraid do not work with the way english football works.
Which is why i wanted Bobby Robson to manage England, oh well.
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post #25 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by Toast:
<strong>Sven and his men are very talented, but his managing skills are straight out of Serie A. And im afraid do not work with the way english football works.</strong><hr></blockquote>And which is why England have won so many games under Sven, some against "formidable" opponents (Germany, Argentina to name two), and which is why they have gone so far, farther than God knows when, in this world cup...

- T.I.
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post #26 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong> :eek: TI you are omniwhere ! </strong><hr></blockquote>S p :eek: :eek: k y, no?

- T.I.
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post #27 of 36
In the immortal words o' Sir Björn MacMinge o' Norway....

"Lord Nelson! Lord Beaverbrook! Sir Winston Churchill! Sir Anthony Eden! Clement Attlee! Henry Cooper! Lady Diana!!! Maggie Thatcher - can you hear me, Maggie Thatcher?!? Your boys took one hell of a beating! Your boys took one hell of a beating!"

<a href="http://www.btinternet.com/~alexc/audio/canyouhearme.ra" target="_blank">http://www.btinternet.com/~alexc/audio/canyouhearme.ra</a>
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post #28 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by Sir Mac o' the Isles:
<strong>In the immortal words o' Sir Björn MacMinge o' Norway....

"Lord Nelson! Lord Beaverbrook! Sir Winston Churchill! Sir Anthony Eden! Clement Attlee! Henry Cooper! Lady Diana!!! Maggie Thatcher - can you hear me, Maggie Thatcher?!? Your boys took one hell of a beating! Your boys took one hell of a beating!"

<a href="http://www.btinternet.com/~alexc/audio/canyouhearme.ra" target="_blank">http://www.btinternet.com/~alexc/audio/canyouhearme.ra</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Hello Sir Mac!

How is Scotland?

It crosses my mind that England went to the World Cup in Japan and Korea (the FIFA world cup of Association Football, or 'soccer' if you will)
and, heavens above, unless my brain's absolutely full of cucky, Scotland didn't!

How can this be? Well, I'll tell you.

Scotland, after playing all their qualification matches, didn't garner enough qualification points in the qualification table of qualifiers. So they didn't go because they didn't qualify; it was qualification that let them down.

Which is why they didn't go. England, who were just knocked out by four-times-winners Brasil, er, did.

Unlike, say, Scotland, who didn't qualify.

"Just my two cents' worth", as the Americans say! I hope this clears things up a bit!

Must dash.

[ 06-25-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i-Sabbah ]</p>
post #29 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Installer:
<strong>And which is why England have won so many games under Sven, some against "formidable" opponents (Germany, Argentina to name two), and which is why they have gone so far, farther than God knows when, in this world cup...

- T.I.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are not looking at all the facts here.
England won, yes.
But they have played really really badly in the qualifiers and in the world cup finals.
Its not a surprise they beat the teams they have done, look at the players they have. Infact they have one of the most talented teams in the world, and this is all without players like Joe Cole, Gerrard, Mcmanamn.
Infact it is no surprise England beat teams like Germany, Germany are poor, very very poor, they have the worst team of theirs in a good 30years. Whereas England have one of their best.
All Englands performances have been down to moments of individual talent (Beckhams greece goal, Owens Germany Hat trick.) , they have had nothing to do with good management. And it is this individual talent which has pulled them through this world cup, this is the talent which gives results, results which help but not ones which make you a world cup winner. And it is the manager who needs to make them play as a finely tuned unit, Robson did this and venables did this because of their management style. Sven doesnt have this type of management, he does not know about it.

If you will notice, the Argentina victory was the only game so far under sven where they have played as a unit. the ball could be kept for most of the game, it could be passed around the midfield with confidence, and it could be threaded through to Owen.
Unlike the other performances where one England defender has played a long ball over the top finding Owen, who slots it into the net. This being done once or twice a match, most of the time not working because it is a very poor tactic caused by the lack of a "team".

Im not discrediting Englands record, im discrediting their perfromance in consideration with their talent. Which is down to management.

If England had played with a more suitable manager they would have played better as a team. And as a team i would go as far to say as they would be the best in the world.

This is their best performance since 1990. Where they reached the semis under Bobby Robson, remember Gazzas tears?
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post #30 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by Toast:
<strong>...remember Gazzas tears? </strong><hr></blockquote>Sorry, but I have no time for wife beaters.

Also, I have now lost interest in the cup. Unless Turkey wins today, that is

- T.I.
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post #31 of 36
This died off in the other thread and I find it too funny not to try force on you all just one last time...

Copacabannockburn by Barry Manilow


His name was David,
He was a goalie,
With a pigtail in his hair, why was he standing way out there ?
He tried to run back but couldn't make it,
The Brazilians watched it from a far, as it sneaked under the bar
You could hear the crowd roar, Rivaldo's lying on the floor
The lions whimpered out the door,
Oh baby, who could ask for more...

At the Copa, oh, Copa-ca-bann-ock-burn,
Its great to watch Rivaldo turn,
At the Copa, oh, Copa-ca-bann-ock-burn,
The man with the Moustache should stick to making the adverts,
At the Copa - They fell to bits.

His name was Rio, He was a diamond,
He was running round in rings, he saw Rivaldo level things,
And when he finished, He called him over
But Rio went to slow, Rivaldo slammed it in the goal,
And then Brooking had a spew, Motson bit his mike in two,
Then Ronaldhino, he got a red card, but with Heskey picked by Sven
It looked like ten versus ten....

At the Copa, oh, Copa-ca-bann-ock-burn,
Its great to watch Rivaldo turn,
At the Copa, oh, Copa-ca-bann-ock-burn,
With heskey near the ball, how did they score a goal at all ?,
At the Copa - We laughed and laughed.

His Name was Bobby, He was the captain,
But that was 30 years ago, thats when they used to have a show,
Now its a party, but not for Beckham,
Still in the dress he used to wear, faded feathers in his hair,
He slumps down on the pitch refined, and then cries himself half blind,
He lost his cup, and lost his glory,
But up in Scotland thats not the story....

At the Copa, oh, Copa-ca-bann-ock-burn,
Its great to watch Rivaldo turn,
At the Copa, oh, Copa-ca-bann-ock-burn,
Three little kittys on the chest, Now we all know whos the best,
At the Copa....we...said...good-byeeeeeeee!!.

You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
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You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #32 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by Leonis:
<strong>


They (many European teams) are very arrogant. They always think they are winners and others are losers. Now they deserve to lose.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Shut up....loser....
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #33 of 36
[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Meanie:
<strong>Virtually every British newspaper today has a picture of England goalie David Seaman in tears after the
game. Want to see one? Oh <a href="http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002280891,00.html" target="_blank">go on</a> then, you masochistic so-and-sos...
Apparently he of the ill-advised pony-tail was completely <a href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11972309&method=full&siteid=5014 3" target="_blank">inconsolable</a> after the final whistle, breaking down in tears during a press conference and sobbing all the way through the manager's pep talk after the match. No doubt Groverat will say this makes him a limey wuss, but I don't know. At least it shows there was some genuine commitment there. It's just a shame the rest of the team couldn't show that kind of passion on the pitch instead of crashing out limply after vanquishing Argentina and dynamiting Denmark (if I can borrow a *cheesy* phrase from the sports pages...)

[ 06-23-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Damn right he cried his eyes out. When you drop clangers like that you should either be in goal for South Africa or Saudi Arabia but not England.

I´ve more time for the tears of the England fans since they can´t help it that their keeper is a nitwit.

And guys with ponytails are either in advertising or limey wusses and we all no he´s not in advertising! He cries too!
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
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You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #34 of 36
Hullo Mr Sabbah. I trust you are weel.

Scotland is much as it ever was, thankyou for asking. Bold, noble and gracious in victory, and gallant in (the occasional) defeat.

It is true that this proud wee nation has had its ups and doons on the field o' battle and I hae made allusion tae the disasterous Argentina World Cup o' 1978 on the odd occasion (I remember it all too weel), but after years o' losing we have learned tae smile in the face o' ignominy, party on the doorstep o' disaster and pee in the ear o' calamity. Onyway, oor time will surely come again and by the time o' the next World Cup we will be certainly be on the march wi' Ally's Army once mare; gubbing all comers by at least 7 nil and heaping soccertastic humilation upon fitba's erstwhile finest nations. Mark my words!

I just wish the England vs Scotland game would reappear on a regular basis so we could help oorsel's tae those (New) Wembley goalposts again.
Heedrum Ho
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Heedrum Ho
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post #35 of 36
Hello again, Sir Mac.

Thank-you for taking the time to reply; I'm pleased to hear of the bouyant state of your nation and I wish you all the very best in both Euro 2004 and Deutschland 2008.

But the 'fitba' is on right now so forgive me the brevity of my post.

Very best regards,

Hassan i Sabbah
The Old Man of the Mountain
post #36 of 36
[quote]No doubt Groverat will say this makes him a limey wuss, but I don't know.<hr></blockquote>


Nah, I can understand that.

Well, he's a limey wuss because he's an English soccer player, but the crying bit is fully understandeable.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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