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The Government Should Help Me! - Page 2

post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm sure that's probably true. I know mine won't be like that. I actually don't plan to retire. But, yes, politicians of all stripes have made it more difficult for many people.




First I don't think there should be any mandatory age of retirement. Second as regards raising the eligibility age for government retirement benefits...that's probably a very good idea. Eventually these should be eliminated altogether except for cases of the most destitute.



Yeah...and we see how well received that's been. \




I do advocate raising the age. I also think we should phase SS out completely over time.




What's interesting, and most people don't realize is that when SS was setup, the eligibility age was set to 65 I think at a time when most people didn't live much longer than that age. So it was setup as sort of a "last year (or two) of life" benefit program. It was not intended to be a 20 year retirement pension plan. Things have changed. The age should be raise. 70 should be the minimum. Maybe 75.

Well myself I plan to work full time until at least 67. I've heard the return is much better if you put it off for a few years and their suggestion to raise the age wouldn't be in full effect until 2075 I found out today so no worries.

Right now ( 57 ) I feel that I could keep working full time like I am for a long while. However the thing is once you hit 50 you realize that you feel fine now but that could change really fast. So there's no real way to accurately gauge how you'll feel by your late 60's.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

However the thing is once you hit 50 you realize that you feel fine now but that could change really fast. So there's no real way to accurately gauge how you'll feel by your late 60's.

Possibly. But for me it's not a matter of how I feel...it's a matter of what right. Sitting around on my ass watching TV, drinking cocktails and playing cards with all the old folks ain't for me. I see enough people doing it now. They spend 75% of their life at the doctor and the rest watching TV. What's the point?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #43 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Possibly. But for me it's not a matter of how I feel...it's a matter of what right. Sitting around on my ass watching TV, drinking cocktails and playing cards with all the old folks ain't for me. I see enough people doing it now. They spend 75% of their life at the doctor and the rest watching TV. What's the point?

So you're saying you'd rather die? Let's see if you actually feel that way when you get closer.

That really is a young person's perspective. You can't imagine being old and wanting to still experience things. Well your views about that change over time. Trust me. And by " Feel " I meant physically. Some people can't manage a full time job but can still function. Also you can slip to that level and be there for a long time.

I recommend people do something when they retire even if it's a full time hobby if they can't manage a job. In every job I've had if someone would retire and do nothing you'd be reading about them in the obituary column in about a year or two. So no I don't think you should just party all of the time. You need to be involved in something constructive.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #44 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So you're saying you'd rather die? Let's see if you actually feel that way when you get closer.

If the choice is between spending 75% of my time just trying to stay health and alive by constant visits to the doctor and consuming endless pharmaceutical products while spending the remaining 25% watching TV and not actually contributing anything to society...and death...I'll take a graceful death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You need to be involved in something constructive.

That's my main point.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That's exactly right. There was no reason for the federal government to step in. The bankruptcy courts and laws already cover what needed to be covered...except...protecting the UAW. That's what the bailout was. It was a bailout of the UAW. Under regular bankruptcy things would have been orderly (unlike what was implied by the Obama administration). Everyone involved with GM would have been handled properly and legally. The bondholders wouldn't have been fucked over like they were by the Obama administration. The unions would not have been given the sweetheart deal they got from the Obama administration. In fact the union contracts would have basically been voided and new contracts would have had to been written (if they were written at all.) Same story with the dealerships (of which GM has too many.) Furthermore, GM would have been forced by a bankruptcy court to re-structure, sell of underperforming assets and emerge as a smaller, sleeker company ready to give it another go.

You both have nailed this on the head and explained it in much greater depth than I did. (Super kudos) As was noted this was about avoiding the voiding of union contracts. GM would have been much better off going through a real bankruptcy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

2 years ago, I was laid off and I lost my house.

The difference between me and this woman is that I did not expect the government to step in and save my house or job (I did not even file for unemployment). I did not expect the bank to make everything better (although I did try working with the lender in every possible way, only to be foreclosed on anyway).

I accepted responsibility for my own decisions. We were living paycheck to paycheck. That is dangerous. You take even one of those paychecks out of the equation, and your whole world can turn upside down in an instant.

We were living on the very edge of our means, and we suffered the consequences. We have learned from that experience and are working diligently so that we are never in such a position again.

Believing in personal responsibility and accountability is not "anti-human". It is not uncaring or cruel. Quite the opposite. This belief is deeply rooted in a love of freedom and liberty and the idea that all men are created equal and should have equal opportunity to make of their lives what they will.

But it is important to understand that equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. Freedom exists only where people are willing to take responsibility for how they exercise that freedom.

I am a self-described "Conservative Libertarian" and I approve this message.

Fantastic and brave sharing JG. Awesome example of taking responsibility instead of pointing fingers and blaming others!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Possibly. But for me it's not a matter of how I feel...it's a matter of what right. Sitting around on my ass watching TV, drinking cocktails and playing cards with all the old folks ain't for me. I see enough people doing it now. They spend 75% of their life at the doctor and the rest watching TV. What's the point?

Exactly! You are guaranteed to age but how you age and your quality of life is still is largely up to you. You can have the government foot the bill but some of us think the quality of life is still rather low because even with the choices paid for, there are still bad choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So you're saying you'd rather die? Let's see if you actually feel that way when you get closer.

That really is a young person's perspective. You can't imagine being old and wanting to still experience things. Well your views about that change over time. Trust me. And by " Feel " I meant physically. Some people can't manage a full time job but can still function. Also you can slip to that level and be there for a long time.

I recommend people do something when they retire even if it's a full time hobby if they can't manage a job. In every job I've had if someone would retire and do nothing you'd be reading about them in the obituary column in about a year or two. So no I don't think you should just party all of the time. You need to be involved in something constructive.

The irony of your statement is profound. It really is a young person's perspective in that one need not assign certain traits to themselves just because they are aging and elderly. You make a good statement about the need to stay busy thought Jimmac. Both of you are largely hitting on the same point. Part of aging is mental and some choose to manage it and others choose to just give in to it.

I may not be elderly Jimmac (we'll reserve that role for you) but I'm not exactly the 31 year old guy I was when I started posting on these forums. However despite having just turned 30-10 (which is what comes after 39) a few months ago, I'm very active and pretty fit. I've watched dozens of my friends already acquire the middle age spread and they just write everything off to aging. Your knees don't hurt at 40 or 50 or most of the time even 60 due to age. They hurt because many Americans are carrying around 40-75lbs more on them than they should. I'm sad to see them take it on but I won't compel them via force of law to adopt a different lifestyle. We just get to do less together because while they are panting in a chair or watching television, I'm out training for something or trying something new.

I did a show about 18 months ago with a fantastic gentleman who was 83. He was a minister, had an earring in one ear, still worked part time subbing at various churches and was had so many ACTIVE and fun stories to tell. He was doing this show with me so that right there is staying active whereas others aren't. Whenever I do a running or riding event the number of fit, healthy and active elderly people there are amazing and inspiring. Yet for every 70 year old woman kicking my ass in a half marathon I meet, I know there are dozens more doddering along with slow brains, slow bodies and whose lives reflect their choices rather than age concessions.

Age concessions are things like, gee I can carry an extra 5% of body fat at 79 compared to when I was 20 and still be considered healthy or my top heart rate is now 180 bpm compared to 200 when I was 20 and thus I'm a little slower. Slower doesn't mean sitting on your ass on the couch though.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So you're saying you'd rather die? Let's see if you actually feel that way when you get closer.

That really is a young person's perspective. You can't imagine being old and wanting to still experience things. Well your views about that change over time. Trust me. And by " Feel " I meant physically. Some people can't manage a full time job but can still function. Also you can slip to that level and be there for a long time.

I recommend people do something when they retire even if it's a full time hobby if they can't manage a job. In every job I've had if someone would retire and do nothing you'd be reading about them in the obituary column in about a year or two. So no I don't think you should just party all of the time. You need to be involved in something constructive.

I am sure you win over a lot of people by laughing at personal thoughts that they share with you.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

... who was 83. He was a minister, had an earring in one ear, still worked part time subbing at various churches ...

I would have thought he'd be excited to move on to heaven!... I mean really: mansions, streets paved in gold, eternal happiness, no sorrows, no pain, etc, etc.... I've often wondered why the suicide rate among "Christians" wasn't astronomical!

But really... I agree... the older you get, the more you realize that there is just SO MUCH more that you want to do, and we're never gonna have time to do it all. Sick or healthy... there's still SOMEthing else to experience. (And deep down, I think everyone realizes that death is the end... so no one wants to die.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

But really... I agree... the older you get, the more you realize that there is just SO MUCH more that you want to do, and we're never gonna have time to do it all. Sick or healthy... there's still SOMEthing else to experience. (And deep down, I think everyone realizes that death is the end... so no one wants to die.)

But it's more than just what you can experience. It about more than just what you want to do. Yo me the question is about what you can contribute. There's production (and the general sense of things) and consumption. During our life we produce and we consume. But sometimes we fall into the trap of thinking that all we ought to be doing is getting/receiving/consuming and forgetting about giving/producing. We also seem to think that our ability to produce and contribute to the world ends at 65 (or some other official age.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I am sure you win over a lot of people by laughing at personal thoughts that they share with you.

Really? I'm sure you'll win over alot of people by trying to turn something into something it's not.

I just asked the question to see if he was serious. Apparently he is which is a young person's perspective as they can't possibly know what it's like when you start to grow old anymore than a child can really know what it's like to be an adult..
However in his next post he clarified.

I mearly pointed out that his perspective will probabaly change on this as he get's older ( most do ). No one likes the idea of growing old and eventually dying. However everyone does. The attitude is a matter of perspective. Myself I'm 57 and feeling it some days. As my wife reminds me everytime I make a comment about my age some would give anything to get as to this age I've gotten to.

Her sister died when she was 32 to breast cancer.

I'm getting old and still enjoying life. And proud of it!

So that's really the point that he and I share. If you aren't enjoying life say while going through treatment for cancer that isn't going to go away I can see not wanting to stick around. However just growing old in the normal sense? Life a gift and an adventure. If the adventure isn't over I can't see leaving.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I mearly [sic] pointed out that his perspective will probabaly change on this as he get's older ( most do ). No one likes the idea of growing old and eventually dying. However everyone does. The attitude is a matter of perspective.

Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. Just to clarify though, my feelings about my future don't derive from some fear or dislike of the idea of getting old and dying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'm getting old and still enjoying life. And proud of it!

So that's really the point that he and I share. If you aren't enjoying life say while going through treatment for cancer that isn't going to go away I can see not wanting to stick around. However just growing old in the normal sense? Life a gift and an adventure. If the adventure isn't over I can't see leaving.

It seems you've actually missed my point. \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #51 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. Just to clarify though, my feelings about my future don't derive from some fear or dislike of the idea of getting old and dying.




It seems you've actually missed my point. \

So what exactly was your point? That you should stay active when you get older or you shouldn't get a reward for many years of work because you would be doing nothing but playing cards and spending 75% of the time at the doctor?

Many people live long lives that have some physical difficulty but still enjoy life ( and want to keep on living ). I'd say your example wasn't typical. Do you go to the doctor more often when you get older? Yes of course. Does everyone who retires just party and play cards with the other old folks. Of course not!

So what exactly was your point MJ. I did think it was something along the lines of staying involved and active. So are you saying you'd rather die than get old? I can't believe that's it either.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You both have nailed this on the head and explained it in much greater depth than I did. (Super kudos) As was noted this was about avoiding the voiding of union contracts. GM would have been much better off going through a real bankruptcy.



Fantastic and brave sharing JG. Awesome example of taking responsibility instead of pointing fingers and blaming others!



Exactly! You are guaranteed to age but how you age and your quality of life is still is largely up to you. You can have the government foot the bill but some of us think the quality of life is still rather low because even with the choices paid for, there are still bad choices.



The irony of your statement is profound. It really is a young person's perspective in that one need not assign certain traits to themselves just because they are aging and elderly. You make a good statement about the need to stay busy thought Jimmac. Both of you are largely hitting on the same point. Part of aging is mental and some choose to manage it and others choose to just give in to it.

I may not be elderly Jimmac (we'll reserve that role for you) but I'm not exactly the 31 year old guy I was when I started posting on these forums. However despite having just turned 30-10 (which is what comes after 39) a few months ago, I'm very active and pretty fit. I've watched dozens of my friends already acquire the middle age spread and they just write everything off to aging. Your knees don't hurt at 40 or 50 or most of the time even 60 due to age. They hurt because many Americans are carrying around 40-75lbs more on them than they should. I'm sad to see them take it on but I won't compel them via force of law to adopt a different lifestyle. We just get to do less together because while they are panting in a chair or watching television, I'm out training for something or trying something new.

I did a show about 18 months ago with a fantastic gentleman who was 83. He was a minister, had an earring in one ear, still worked part time subbing at various churches and was had so many ACTIVE and fun stories to tell. He was doing this show with me so that right there is staying active whereas others aren't. Whenever I do a running or riding event the number of fit, healthy and active elderly people there are amazing and inspiring. Yet for every 70 year old woman kicking my ass in a half marathon I meet, I know there are dozens more doddering along with slow brains, slow bodies and whose lives reflect their choices rather than age concessions.

Age concessions are things like, gee I can carry an extra 5% of body fat at 79 compared to when I was 20 and still be considered healthy or my top heart rate is now 180 bpm compared to 200 when I was 20 and thus I'm a little slower. Slower doesn't mean sitting on your ass on the couch though.

Yes a friend of mine had a dad who's 85 and still plays hand ball for an hour and a half every day. However not everyone can do that. Some of it is how active you were when you were younger. Some of it is genetic. And yes some of it is the choices you made when you were younger. I'd say there's alot of every group mentioned.

Quote:
Slower doesn't mean sitting on your ass on the couch though

Exactly! I also think the idea of retirement is different now than it was for my parents.

Obviously it costs more. But I think more people really are choosing to stay active and involved so they can keep on living.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So what exactly was your point? That you should stay active when you get older or you shouldn't get a reward for many years of work because you would be doing nothing but playing cards and spending 75% of the time at the doctor?

I'll dodge your loaded question. But my point is simple...it's about more than merely being active but also being productive. I believe our duty here on earth is to produce more than we consume over the entirety of our lives. Get it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So what exactly was your point MJ. I did think it was something along the lines of staying involved and active.

As I stated above it's more than merely "staying involved and active" but also being productive...producing more than consuming.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'll dodge your loaded question. But my point is simple...it's about more than merely being active but also being productive. I believe our duty here on earth is to produce more than we consume over the entirety of our lives. Get it?




As I stated above it's more than merely "staying involved and active" but also being productive...producing more than consuming.

MJ, MJ, MJ! I'm not trying to load any question! Staying productive could mean helping out in community service. There's many ways to stay productive.

Most older people I know want to continue to be a vital, important, contributor to the community. The moment they feel unnecessary or an extra burden and not part of the whole is when they don't want to be around anymore. There are those who stop working and do nothing. But as I said they usually aren't around much longer.
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post #55 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Staying productive could mean helping out in community servie. There's many ways to stay productive.

I agree. I never said any different. Playing handball though...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

There are those who stop working and do nothing.

And that's what I'm talking about. Many of them actually do do something...but it is all consumptive...it's watching TV, sitting around chatting, playing games...but not contributing at all. It's sad. They're free to do that as they wish (not on my nickel please.) Just not what I want to do. That's all I'm saying. There's more of this going on than I think you realize. Some of it is the culture we live in...putting people out to pasture way to early. That's sad too.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #56 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I agree. I never said any different. Playing handball though...




And that's what I'm talking about. Many of them actually do do something...but it is all consumptive...it's watching TV, sitting around chatting, playing games...but not contributing at all. It's sad. They're free to do that as they wish (not on my nickel please.) Just not what I want to do. That's all I'm saying. There's more of this going on than I think you realize. Some of it is the culture we live in...putting people out to pasture way to early. That's sad too.

Quote:
I agree. I never said any different. Playing handball though...

And what do you mean by that? Handball is very aerobic and hones your coodination.

And as for those who do nothing? I wouldn't say they were in the majority by their very nature.
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post #57 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And what do you mean by that?

Mean by what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And as for those who do nothing? I wouldn't say they were in the majority by their very nature.

Huh First I never said they were in the majority. You are correct, once the net-consumers take over the net-producers as a percentage of the population we'll begin a downward slide. Net-consumers cannot sustainably be a majority of the population for long.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Mean by what?




Huh First I never said they were in the majority. You are correct, once the net-consumers take over the net-producers as a percentage of the population we'll begin a downward slide. Net-consumers cannot sustainably be a majority of the population for long.

Quote:
Mean by what?

It sounded like you have something against handball.
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post #59 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It sounded like you have something against handball.

No. Not at all! I think it's a great activity. I prefer racquetball myself (but my shoulders can't really handle it anymore.) But these are consumptive activities not productive activities. It doesn't mean they're bad.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No. Not at all! I think it's a great activity. I prefer racquetball myself (but my shoulders can't really handle it anymore.) But these are consumptive activities not productive activities. It doesn't mean they're bad.

Glad we cleared that up! However to be fair if you'll look it was a reply to trumpman about physical exercise. Not productivity.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #61 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Really? I'm sure you'll win over alot of people by trying to turn something into something it's not.

Yeah this was not laughing at his words at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So you're saying you'd rather die? Let's see if you actually feel that way when you get closer.

The LOL smiley seemed to clearly be you laughing at his statements. In case you missed it that was this one:

Quote:
I just asked the question to see if he was serious. Apparently he is which is a young person's perspective as they can't possibly know what it's like when you start to grow old anymore than a child can really know what it's like to be an adult..
However in his next post he clarified.

I mearly pointed out that his perspective will probabaly change on this as he get's older ( most do ). No one likes the idea of growing old and eventually dying. However everyone does. The attitude is a matter of perspective. Myself I'm 57 and feeling it some days. As my wife reminds me everytime I make a comment about my age some would give anything to get as to this age I've gotten to.

Her sister died when she was 32 to breast cancer.

I'm getting old and still enjoying life. And proud of it!

So that's really the point that he and I share. If you aren't enjoying life say while going through treatment for cancer that isn't going to go away I can see not wanting to stick around. However just growing old in the normal sense? Life a gift and an adventure. If the adventure isn't over I can't see leaving.

You did say many other things as well, but you started it all with a nice hearty LOL ( ), also known as the graphical representation of "laughing out loud" at your interpretation of his words. But you wrote them so you would know what you meant. As some are fond of saying on these forums, words mean things, and to extend that, the emoticons have meanings as well.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #62 of 62
Thread Starter 
Well, I don't know about you guys, but if I'm lucky enough to be around for retirement, I plan on:

1. Telling people what I think, when I think it. I will take shit from no one!
2. Driving the biggest car I can find...in the middle of the road...for no reason.
3. Having the most energy inefficient home possible. I will literally buy a truckload of conventional light bulbs before they go off the market in the next few years.
4. Putting American flags on everything: My home, my car, my mail, pencils, my TV, everything.
5. Write e-mails with Huge Friggin' Font, using it only to pass on jokes. Oh, and I won't forget to sign every e-mail with the Pledge of Allegiance and you guessed it....a big ass American flag.
6. Passing on urban legend e-mails without attempting to verify their veracity.
7. Making it a point to eat at least 3 high-fat, high sodium foods every day.
8. Sleeping whenever and wherever I want.
9. Finding fault with everything the Lord created
10. Not ever completing a Top Ten list.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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