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Revolution? Is it possible?

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
Generally I feel public discontent is cyclical....usually, particularly in the UK which I have most experience, the pre-requisite is a Tory Government.

I suppose this is because under Right-wing governance it is always the poor and downtrodden who get their faces ground into the dirt and these are the people who are the only ones capable of making a stand.

The bourgeoisie are always content with their snouts in the trough and their fat bellies in front of their plasma TVs.

Anyway, the UK now has a Tory government. And LO - oppressive cuts and bonuses for the rich ensue.

And oh look people are pissed off - violent clashes in London.

It goes without saying this disgraceful state of affairs is the fault of the Right but could it actually be a good thing?

Could it even be the only way to get the fat-cats snouts out of the trough and make a move towards true freedom, peace and equality?

I think it might happen this time...look at what happened under Thatcher..the most virulent and obscene Right-wing regime in British history (though we could soon see that record eclipsed) and people made a stand. Became politicized.

And then it all went bland.... but I think radicalism could well be making a return.

This is good imo. It may well be the only way to freedom and uprooting corruption. Thoughts?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Generally I feel public discontent is cyclical....usually, particularly in the UK which I have most experience, the pre-requisite is a Tory Government.

I suppose this is because under Right-wing governance it is always the poor and downtrodden who get their faces ground into the dirt and these are the people who are the only ones capable of making a stand.

The bourgeoisie are always content with their snouts in the trough and their fat bellies in front of their plasma TVs.

Anyway, the UK now has a Tory government. And LO - oppressive cuts and bonuses for the rich ensue.

And oh look people are pissed off - violent clashes in London.

It goes without saying this disgraceful state of affairs is the fault of the Right but could it actually be a good thing?

Could it even be the only way to get the fat-cats snouts out of the trough and make a move towards true freedom, peace and equality?

I think it might happen this time...look at what happened under Thatcher..the most virulent and obscene Right-wing regime in British history (though we could soon see that record eclipsed) and people made a stand. Became politicized.

And then it all went bland.... but I think radicalism could well be making a return.

This is good imo. It may well be the only way to freedom and uprooting corruption. Thoughts?

I thought violence from the left of the political spectrum wasn't possible. I thought it was "just giving them what they deserve and defending themselves from the oppressor" or some inane nonsense like that.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #3 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I thought violence from the left of the political spectrum wasn't possible. I thought it was "just giving them what they deserve and defending themselves from the oppressor" or some inane nonsense like that.

I think this incident transcends left or Right...it's just people now....people who have been beat up on one too many times.

It's just cause and effect: maybe you shouldn't go into the roughest pub in town, ask for the hardest guy and call him a wanker....maybe it's a silly idea and maybe what happens after that is not too pretty.

But it's all just cause and effect.

My question is 'can some good come of it?' and if so should we embrace it?

The Right are quick enough to use violence when it's hundreds of thousands of muslims being sent to paradise a little too early and in various painful ways - a few broken windows is a small price to pay for regime-change where it's needed most: on the home front.

Shit...just remembered I should only be replying to you with Nietzsche quotes..oh well...you don't understand them anyway, we'll stick with me!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

My question is 'can some good come of it?' and if so should we embrace it?

I really can't speak for the British situation... I'm merely a tourist when I'm there.

While I think armed/violent insurrection should be a LAST resort... there are times when it's the right way to go. (I believe there was one on the other side of the pond about 235 years ago that you Brits were involved in )

Personally, I don't think it's near that point yet in the States ... and I doubt it's reached that point in the UK either. I do have a fair amount of ammunition on hand though.

Odd difference though... in the US, it seems that talk of revolution occurs when the Dems/Leftists have been in control.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #5 of 48
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #6 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think this incident transcends left or Right...it's just people now....people who have been beat up on one too many times.

This is your rationale everytime a leftist example is brought to your attention. By the sego rationale chart all violence is right oriented. If someone on the left engages in violence, they have become right-wing for that period of time or they aren't violent but reacting.

You seriously call this break in of Tory HQ a reaction?

Quote:
It's just cause and effect: maybe you shouldn't go into the roughest pub in town, ask for the hardest guy and call him a wanker....maybe it's a silly idea and maybe what happens after that is not too pretty.

What happens when you don't have that happen and decide just because you know of the existance of a hard guy in a rough pub, that you will break into his home and burn him alive? Is it an effect then for merely existing? Do you see how you constantly justify violence, authoritarianism and harm by the left?

Quote:
But it's all just cause and effect.

I'm sure this is why you keep declaring the right is locked and loaded and ready for violence and engages in little to none and meanwhile the left is smashing in windows and burning cars and buildings and that is all just fine.

Quote:
My question is 'can some good come of it?' and if so should we embrace it?

Looting, lying and threats to payoff people not to engage in those actions can bring no good. The UK has massive numbers of people on the dole and many have never attempted a job in their lives.

Quote:
The Right are quick enough to use violence when it's hundreds of thousands of muslims being sent to paradise a little too early and in various painful ways - a few broken windows is a small price to pay for regime-change where it's needed most: on the home front.

Ah yes, the imagined wrong to justify the real violence. Also no difference between sanctioned or not, official or not, whatever. It's all just a mishmash of jumbled rationales to murder and loot.

Quote:
Shit...just remembered I should only be replying to you with Nietzsche quotes..oh well...you don't understand them anyway, we'll stick with me!

Please put me on ignore since by your insane reasoning, I can't understand you anyway.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #7 of 48
Another 4 years of Bush-Cheney policies in the US could have promoted, if not open revolution, widespread civil unrest left of center. Obama's election (from junior senator to president in 4 years... (hmmm... uh huh, very good) caused the simmering on the left to cool down, under the false impression that Obama was a "friend of the people". Haha! Fooled again... idiots. He's the corporate Bankster's Boy.

Now its the right-wing's turn to get antsy.. cue Tea Parrrrrrty!, under the equally false impression that Obama is a "Socialist" ... holy moly. Gotta really laugh at that one... talk about looneytunes.

Everyone's been duped, on the left and the right.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #8 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Generally I feel public discontent is cyclical....usually, particularly in the UK which I have most experience, the pre-requisite is a Tory Government.

I suppose this is because under Right-wing governance it is always the poor and downtrodden who get their faces ground into the dirt and these are the people who are the only ones capable of making a stand.

The bourgeoisie are always content with their snouts in the trough and their fat bellies in front of their plasma TVs.

Anyway, the UK now has a Tory government. And LO - oppressive cuts and bonuses for the rich ensue.

And oh look people are pissed off - violent clashes in London.

It goes without saying this disgraceful state of affairs is the fault of the Right but could it actually be a good thing?

Could it even be the only way to get the fat-cats snouts out of the trough and make a move towards true freedom, peace and equality?

I think it might happen this time...look at what happened under Thatcher..the most virulent and obscene Right-wing regime in British history (though we could soon see that record eclipsed) and people made a stand. Became politicized.

And then it all went bland.... but I think radicalism could well be making a return.

This is good imo. It may well be the only way to freedom and uprooting corruption. Thoughts?


Let me get this straight: The right tends to oppose massive spending, yet they are "at fault" for the government's fiscal situation? And how the hell can cuts be "oppressive?"
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #9 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

This is your rationale everytime a leftist example is brought to your attention. By the sego rationale chart all violence is right oriented. If someone on the left engages in violence, they have become right-wing for that period of time or they aren't violent but reacting.

You seriously call this break in of Tory HQ a reaction?



What happens when you don't have that happen and decide just because you know of the existance of a hard guy in a rough pub, that you will break into his home and burn him alive? Is it an effect then for merely existing? Do you see how you constantly justify violence, authoritarianism and harm by the left?



I'm sure this is why you keep declaring the right is locked and loaded and ready for violence and engages in little to none and meanwhile the left is smashing in windows and burning cars and buildings and that is all just fine.



Looting, lying and threats to payoff people not to engage in those actions can bring no good. The UK has massive numbers of people on the dole and many have never attempted a job in their lives.



Ah yes, the imagined wrong to justify the real violence. Also no difference between sanctioned or not, official or not, whatever. It's all just a mishmash of jumbled rationales to murder and loot.



Please put me on ignore since by your insane reasoning, I can't understand you anyway.

Quote:
This is your rationale everytime a leftist example is brought to your attention

Not from what I've seen. However I have observed you wanting to turn evey bad thing in the world into an anti leftist argument.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #10 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Let me get this straight: The right tends to oppose massive spending, yet they are "at fault" for the government's fiscal situation?

They may "oppose" massive spending when they're making public comments, but their actions hardly back that up. NEITHER party is willing to actually cut government spending. (Cutting taxes is not the same as cutting spending ... and cutting spending is what needs to happen.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

And how the hell can cuts be "oppressive?"

They're not... TAXES are oppressive, spending cuts merely limit the amount of largess to be doled out. (The lack of a freebie is not an act of oppression.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #11 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

And how the hell can cuts be "oppressive?"

People wanting an insight into why the right thinks as it does and why they seem incapable of compassion, rational thought, logical reasoning and all the horrors that follow on from that Pandora's Box should ponder that statement very carefully.

Let's look at it again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

And how the hell can cuts be "oppressive?"

Tell the pensioner on the breadline of £100 a week that she has to now take £60

Tell the cancer patient when you cut the doctors they have to wait another 2 months

Tell the students (as in this case) they can't have their degree because they now need to pay £9000

Tell the banker his £1M bonus is being cut....oh....wait.....it's going up...

Sorry...I was wrong...nothing oppressive here...we're BOOMING!!!!! Look at the bankers!!!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #12 of 48
So the cut is "oppressive" because the government over promised, created a bad system or used a bullshit financial model and can't pay the bill now.

Interesting definition.
post #13 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

So the cut is "oppressive" because the government over promised, created a bad system or used a bullshit financial model and can't pay the bill now.

Interesting definition.

Apologies...forgot where we were...back on track now. I think I get it....

Doctor has to amputate leg because it got shot off by maniac - it DOESN"T HURT!!!!!!

THERE'S NO PAIN BECAUSE THE MANIA WAS EVIL!!!!!!

In fact...it's NOT AN AMPUTATION AT ALL!!!!!

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Tell the pensioner on the breadline of £100 a week that she has to now take £60

Should have spent less and saved more before she became a "pensioner".


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Tell the cancer patient when you cut the doctors they have to wait another 2 months

hmm... so you're saying there are potential problems when the government is responsible for your healthcare?... I don't experience such problems with private health insurance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Tell the students (as in this case) they can't have their degree because they now need to pay £9000

I don't consider a degree to be necessary, and certainly not an entitlement. If you can afford to pay for higher education, then great!... Certainly not something anyone is entitled to recieve from the government though.



Now, I realize that the "culture" is different between the US and the UK... and some of our differences of opinion may stem from that. I happen to be big on personal responsibility.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #15 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I happen to be big on personal responsibility.

Me too...but when you're playing against a stacked deck I see no reason to invoke it....that just makes you stupid no?

Of course you may argue there is NO stacked deck and everyone is given an equal chance. I don't believe that and I don't trust the people in power...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #16 of 48
Oh look, more sociopathic anti-human misreasoning.

You have to wonder how humanity survived a billion years. Maybe the extent of this extreme anti-humaneness is a recent genetic mutation. It seems hyper-expressed mostly in Americans,

Still, I suppose once their country collapses, and their reason for life is extinguished, monetary wealth - they'll rapidly discover that they aren't adapted well to the 'human' environment, and rapidly become extinct.
post #17 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

Oh look, more sociopathic anti-human misreasoning.

You have to wonder how humanity survived a billion years. Maybe the extent of this extreme anti-humaneness is a recent genetic mutation. It seems hyper-expressed mostly in Americans,

Still, I suppose once their country collapses, and their reason for life is extinguished, monetary wealth - they'll rapidly discover that they aren't adapted well to the 'human' environment, and rapidly become extinct.

Marc, hold back a bit buddy. We didn't start the European left is practicing eugenic thought thread yet. You're a little quick on the draw there.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

People wanting an insight into why the right thinks as it does and why they seem incapable of compassion, rational thought, logical reasoning and all the horrors that follow on from that Pandora's Box should ponder that statement very carefully.

Let's look at it again:



Tell the pensioner on the breadline of £100 a week that she has to now take £60

Show me where that's happening.

Quote:

Tell the cancer patient when you cut the doctors they have to wait another 2 months

You mean like what's happening now in the current bloated system?

Quote:

Tell the students (as in this case) they can't have their degree because they now need to pay £9000

Yes, how terrible...so,people might have to PAY FOR COLLEGE. The horror.

Quote:

Tell the banker his £1M bonus is being cut....oh....wait.....it's going up...

Yes, by all means..let's be angry--ANGRY, I SAY--at the banker who works for a private industry and is provided compensation by that industry. That's totally the same thing as, say, raising the retirement age by 2 years. Just as immoral!

Quote:

Sorry...I was wrong...nothing oppressive here...we're BOOMING!!!!! Look at the bankers!!!!

What you're showing here is the tendency to embrace the notion that all money and resources should be distributed equally across the world. Anyone who has less should receive according to his needs. Anyone who has more should be vilified and punished, and should give up his money. If he doesn't, he's a greedy bastard.

There's someone that agrees with this notion. Let me think....its....oh now...what is it....OH, YES. KARL MARX.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #19 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Show me where that's happening.



You mean like what's happening now in the current bloated system?



Yes, how terrible...so,people might have to PAY FOR COLLEGE. The horror.



Yes, by all means..let's be angry--ANGRY, I SAY--at the banker who works for a private industry and is provided compensation by that industry. That's totally the same thing as, say, raising the retirement age by 2 years. Just as immoral!



What you're showing here is the tendency to embrace the notion that all money and resources should be distributed equally across the world. Anyone who has less should receive according to his needs. Anyone who has more should be vilified and punished, and should give up his money. If he doesn't, he's a greedy bastard.

There's someone that agrees with this notion. Let me think....its....oh now...what is it....OH, YES. KARL MARX.

This thread is absolutely ridiculous given many factors but there was another who was not Karl Marx that agreed with that notion and tried to instill it into his followers. That man was Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Matthew 25:15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to each according to his ability. And he went abroad at once.
Acts 2:45 And they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, according as anyone had need.
Acts 4:32-35 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Karl Marx apparently hijacked the idea from the originator.

However, it was not something to be forcibly done, it was something that the person was to do of their own accord otherwise it would be absolutely meaningless. You cannot force a person to give willingly and sacrificially for the good of others. They have to want to.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #20 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

There's someone that agrees with this notion. Let me think....its....oh now...what is it....OH, YES. KARL MARX.

Good catch - for once you're right!

Now care to discuss the Marxist dialectic? You can structure and argue your points based on your deep knowledge of Marxism and cite where it goes wrong with real life referenced examples and quotes...

Oh wait....

Ok..that's not going to work...umm...let's try Jesus Christ then as another poster rightly points out....you surely know more about him and can logically structure an argument to....

Oh..wait again...

err....it's not going to work is it?

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #21 of 48
Do You Recognize Any Of These Progressive Rioters?

Quote:
By the way, if you are a Progressive American, or a Democrat, you own this riot too. These are your Progressive European brethren, and there is no escaping that fact. If this country continues down the path American Progressives are charting, this is our future.

All of this mob-fueled destruction from the self-proclaimed Progressive masters of conflict resolution. What hypocrites.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #22 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:

There's a lie right there in that short article.

First it says this:

Quote:
Other than the fact that it is easy to recognize that these are Progressive Leftists

This is not true but it is not the lie I am referring to - it is not 'easy to recognize' unless you are a US winger ignorant of European politics in general, UK politics in particular and politics as a whole in the abstract.

In fact, NONE of the rioters would view themselves as progressives.

They would laugh in your face (for reasons I won't bother outlining) if you said so.

Anyway, on to the lie.....it goes on to say this:

Quote:
All of this mob-fueled destruction from the self-proclaimed Progressive masters of conflict resolution. What hypocrites.

They are NOT self-proclaimed..... the article proclaimed them.

Therefore they are not hypocrites.

More lies from the Right.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 48
Thread Starter 
Btw...none of them look remotely like anyone from the pics of the other demo.

Another lie.

Why do the Right hate Truth?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Good catch - for once you're right!

Now care to discuss the Marxist dialectic? You can structure and argue your points based on your deep knowledge of Marxism and cite where it goes wrong with real life referenced examples and quotes...

Oh wait....

Ok..that's not going to work...umm...let's try Jesus Christ then as another poster rightly points out....you surely know more about him and can logically structure an argument to....

Oh..wait again...

err....it's not going to work is it?


It always comes down to insults and ad hominem arguments with you, doesn't it? You have no idea concerning my background, what I've read, where I've studied, etc. For all you know I could have done my Masters Thesis on Marx.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #25 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It always comes down to insults and ad hominem arguments with you, doesn't it? You have no idea concerning my background, what I've read, where I've studied, etc. For all you know I could have done my Masters Thesis on Marx.

If you did you would presumably know more about the topic though no?

What you call insults I call facts.

But there's a simple remedy - go and study the issue and argue your point. Not only would you get respect but you'd also get less of what you call 'insults' because you would actually know what you're talking about.

Oth, I know it's a lot of effort so it's always an option to shout Obama is a commie, the Left want Eugenics and there is Shari'a law in US states.

Facts don't matter anyway if it's a certain result that is the aim so maybe you've got it right.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #26 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Good catch - for once you're right!

Now care to discuss the Marxist dialectic? You can structure and argue your points based on your deep knowledge of Marxism and cite where it goes wrong with real life referenced examples and quotes...

Oh wait....

Ok..that's not going to work...umm...let's try Jesus Christ then as another poster rightly points out....you surely know more about him and can logically structure an argument to....

Oh..wait again...

err....it's not going to work is it?


In regards to the portion relating to early Christians and Jesus would you agree that those encouraged activities were not to be imposed upon them by another, but instead were to be willingly given by the person?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #27 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

If you did you would presumably know more about the topic though no?

What you call insults I call facts.

But there's a simple remedy - go and study the issue and argue your point. Not only would you get respect but you'd also get less of what you call 'insults' because you would actually know what you're talking about.

Oth, I know it's a lot of effort so it's always an option to shout Obama is a commie, the Left want Eugenics and there is Shari'a law in US states.

Facts don't matter anyway if it's a certain result that is the aim so maybe you've got it right.

Seg, you were supposed to post this example in the "Why are liberals so condescending?" thread.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #28 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Btw...none of them look remotely like anyone from the pics of the other demo.

Another lie.

Why do the Right hate Truth?

Not just the right.

How about the likes of David Swanson, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky, David Corn, Arianna Huffington, Markos Moulitsas Zúniga, and a host of weasels on the LEFT who by default, shout down or even ban people/material (from their websites)... expecially anything at odds with the official fairy-tale surrounding "The Event". Many, such as Kos and Huffington, even go as far as ban people who even attampt to discuss it. So much for "freedom of speech" and "diversity" which the "left" is supposedly so proud of promoting...

The cowardly treachery of the so-called "left alternative" media has been a huge force in helping the powers-that-be on the far political right to corral the world down the dark tunnel of fear and paranoia, the supine acceptance of the restrictions or even suspensions of hard-won rights and liberties, and the "normalcy" of perpetual war.

Well done, Amy Goodman et al. If another major event goes down, you will have the blood of thousands on your hands, by your tacit support for the probable perps.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #29 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

In regards to the portion relating to early Christians and Jesus would you agree that those encouraged activities were not to be imposed upon them by another, but instead were to be willingly given by the person?

Of course - that's the whole point of the Jesus story isn't it?

That if he had wanted to institute a form of government he could have. If he had wanted to form a political movement he could have - he was well aware of this and the Jewish/Roman antagonism towards him was partly for this reason.

The Jews looked to a military Messiah and a new political framework which he refused to provide and spoke against (in part) and the Romans were paranoid of the Jewish zealots that were springing up and inflaming the populace.

But that is in the realm of spirituality - ie spiritual religious practices not being imposed. Did Jesus ever comment on political ideas being imposed ? I don't think so.

Btw, seeing as we're on to Xianity, I would like to hear opinions on how Jesus fashioning a whip and attacking the money-changers in the temple differs in essence from actions such as we are discussing.

I don't mean comments like "he was God and the rioters are scum" or some such but actually the concept in the abstract.

Seems pretty much the same to me.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

[By the way, if you are a Progressive American, or a Democrat, you own this riot too. These are your Progressive European brethren, and there is no escaping that fact. If this country continues down the path American Progressives are charting, this is our future.

All of this mob-fueled destruction from the self-proclaimed Progressive masters of conflict resolution. What hypocrites.[/URL]

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. American Democrats and "progressives" are responsible for things that extremists do in other countries.

And if you are a conservative, or you voted Republican, then you are responsible for this.

Scores arrested in Belgrade after violent anti-gay riot.

Same diff. Own it, Republicans, with your DADT and your resistance to gay marriage. This is obviously the inevitable outcome.

And if you are a conservative, or you voted Republican, then you are responsible for this. OWN it.

Police arrest man responsible for shooting eight immigrants in Sweden.

Exactly the same. If Democrats can be responsible for things that happen overseas then clearly so can Republicans. EXACTLY the same.

Alternatively?

Think for a minute and come back to reality, and stop demonising people you disagree with.
post #31 of 48
There should be more civil respect towards the police department in the UK . This is disgraceful what these students do to protest higher tuition.Burning buildings, throwing an air conditioner off the roof and breaking windows. This is dreadfully wrong and no way to get anywhere in decreasing the students fee tuition by pulling these stunts.
post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. American Democrats and "progressives" are responsible for things that extremists do in other countries.

And if you are a conservative, or you voted Republican, then you are responsible for this.

Scores arrested in Belgrade after violent anti-gay riot.

Same diff. Own it, Republicans, with your DADT and your resistance to gay marriage. This is obviously the inevitable outcome.

And if you are a conservative, or you voted Republican, then you are responsible for this. OWN it.

Police arrest man responsible for shooting eight immigrants in Sweden.

Exactly the same. If Democrats can be responsible for things that happen overseas then clearly so can Republicans. EXACTLY the same.

Alternatively?

Think for a minute and come back to reality, and stop demonising people you disagree with.

But isn't this essentially the argument that many liberals have made about conservative? Lumping all of them into one group. Foisting responsibility for some extreme group's actions onto anyone that looks or sounds even remotely conservative? Or take Christians as another example. Aren't they often all lumped in with the Fred Phelps' of the world as if he represents the broad thoughts, feelings and actions of all Christians?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But isn't this essentially the argument that many liberals have made about conservative? Lumping all of them into one group. Foisting responsibility for some extreme group's actions onto anyone that looks or sounds even remotely conservative? Or take Christians as another example. Aren't they often all lumped in with the Fred Phelps' of the world as if he represents the broad thoughts, feelings and actions of all Christians?

That's a very good point. It's really annoying, isn't it. I absolutely agree.

So are you going to tell jazzguru it's annoying, or are you going to give him a free pass, because he's on your team?
post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

There should be more civil respect towards the police department in the UK .

Issue them sidearms. Even most idiots respect a .40SW !
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Of course - that's the whole point of the Jesus story isn't it?

That if he had wanted to institute a form of government he could have. If he had wanted to form a political movement he could have - he was well aware of this and the Jewish/Roman antagonism towards him was partly for this reason.

The Jews looked to a military Messiah and a new political framework which he refused to provide and spoke against (in part) and the Romans were paranoid of the Jewish zealots that were springing up and inflaming the populace.

But that is in the realm of spirituality - ie spiritual religious practices not being imposed. Did Jesus ever comment on political ideas being imposed ? I don't think so.

Btw, seeing as we're on to Xianity, I would like to hear opinions on how Jesus fashioning a whip and attacking the money-changers in the temple differs in essence from actions such as we are discussing.

Xianity? I thought that term was reserved for fakes and phonies?

Quote:
I don't mean comments like "he was God and the rioters are scum" or some such but actually the concept in the abstract.

Seems pretty much the same to me.

One is protesting an establishment aiming to stand in the way of a relationship with their creator in order to exploit the masses, poor or otherwise, for financial gain. The other is complaining that they don't get to retire at the same time or have to pay more for school. Where are the similarities except for the monetary aspect?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Xianity? I thought that term was reserved for fakes and phonies?

Actually the use of the letter X as a symbolic substitute for the title/name "Christ" is not all that uncommon even in Christian circles. I think it is meant as both a clever short-hand with a double meaning...the X implying the cross.

He may be using it in a specific way, but I'm not aware that this usage is meant to suggest "fake" Christians.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #37 of 48
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=NoahJ;1751749]Xianity? I thought that term was reserved for fakes and phonies?

I've widened it slightly - in this case I suppose on the assumption that pretty soon we'll be treading less than rigorous theological waters.

I could argue it is meant in the original Christian sense which would much more recognize it than any other label but I won't stretch things...

Quote:
One is protesting an establishment aiming to stand in the way of a relationship with their creator in order to exploit the masses, poor or otherwise, for financial gain. The other is complaining that they don't get to retire at the same time or have to pay more for school. Where are the similarities except for the monetary aspect?

I don't accept that this statement is correct:
protesting an establishment aiming to stand in the way of a relationship with their creator NOTHING can stand in the way of a relationship with God if one is ready for it. I suppose ANYTHING can if one is not.

In any event, for sure the moneychangers in the temple did not - imo - stand in the way. How could they? They were a totally different thing.

Put another way; if they were not there and were opposed by the Temple priests I do not accept that the Temple would be a valid way to God.

Nor I think can one argue that Jesus did - otherwise why did he not work within the temple framework He was clearly outside it and something very different.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #38 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually the use of the letter X as a symbolic substitute for the title/name "Christ" is not all that uncommon even in Christian circles. I think it is meant as both a clever short-hand with a double meaning...the X implying the cross.

He may be using it in a specific way, but I'm not aware that this usage is meant to suggest "fake" Christians.

I use it for fake Christians and he knows that so he's right to pick it up.

But oth, it is also an original usage of the early Church - ie the Greek letters Chi and Rho intertwined. Chi is written as an 'X' and Rho is written as a 'P' being the first two letters of the Greek word Christ. 'XP' is sometimes used to stand for Christ. Sometimes X is used alone.

Quote:
The idea of X as an abbreviation for the name of Christ came into use in our culture with no intent to show any disrespect for Jesus. The church has used the symbol of the fish historically because it is an acronym. Fish in Greek (ichthus) involved the use of the first letters for the Greek phrase Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior. So the early Christians would take the first letter of those words and put those letters together to spell the Greek word for fish. Thats how the symbol of the fish became the universal symbol of Christendom. Theres a long and sacred history of the use of X to symbolize the name of Christ, and from its origin, it has meant no disrespect.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I've widened it slightly - in this case I suppose on the assumption that pretty soon we'll be treading less than rigorous theological waters.

I could argue it is meant in the original Christian sense which would much more recognize it than any other label but I won't stretch things...

If you are going to alter understandings between us please let me know so I am sure of what position you are arguing from.

Quote:
I don't accept that this statement is correct:
protesting an establishment aiming to stand in the way of a relationship with their creator NOTHING can stand in the way of a relationship with God if one is ready for it. I suppose ANYTHING can if one is not.

I knew after I wrote it that you would take this route. I should have been more verbal in my response. However you want to nitpick it, Jesus did not attack them for the reasons you are trying to assign. And they are not comparable except at a very basic level of there being a perception of exploitation.

Quote:
In any event, for sure the moneychangers in the temple did not - imo - stand in the way. How could they? They were a totally different thing.

Put another way; if they were not there and were opposed by the Temple priests I do not accept that the Temple would be a valid way to God.

Nor I think can one argue that Jesus did - otherwise why did he not work within the temple framework He was clearly outside it and something very different.

Jesus at the Temple

12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13It is written, he said to them, My house will be called a house of prayer,e but you are making it a den of robbers.


The money changers had made the temple a base marketplace. Had taken the position that no matter what animal you had brought to the temple, it was not "perfect enough" to sacrifice to G-d and would thus not cover your sins adequately. Also you could not use your own tainted money, it had to be temple coins that you gave for your offerings. At a price of course. Thus telling the general populace, not just the poor, that they were not acceptable and nothing they had to offer was good enough, but for a price they could buy acceptable items (animals and coins) that G-d would actually accept.

If this is not standing in the way of a real understanding of what G-d had to offer them and not pointing them down a false path I don't know what is. There is more as well but if we disagree here then nothing more I have to say will likely help.

The church of today has fallen even further than this, but has much of the same flawed understanding of G-d and what a relationship with him entails.

Whatever the case, to draw it back to the topic, can you actually say you believe that Jesus would be out there with the protesters, tearing up the Tories offices and burning buildings and throwing A/C's off of the roofs? Do you believe that he would tell those doing so that it is ok to do so? He did not do so in Roman times, perhaps he has changed now?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If you are going to alter understandings between us please let me know so I am sure of what position you are arguing from.



I knew after I wrote it that you would take this route. I should have been more verbal in my response. However you want to nitpick it, Jesus did not attack them for the reasons you are trying to assign. And they are not comparable except at a very basic level of there being a perception of exploitation.



Jesus at the Temple

12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13“It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’e but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.’”


The money changers had made the temple a base marketplace. Had taken the position that no matter what animal you had brought to the temple, it was not "perfect enough" to sacrifice to G-d and would thus not cover your sins adequately. Also you could not use your own tainted money, it had to be temple coins that you gave for your offerings. At a price of course. Thus telling the general populace, not just the poor, that they were not acceptable and nothing they had to offer was good enough, but for a price they could buy acceptable items (animals and coins) that G-d would actually accept.

If this is not standing in the way of a real understanding of what G-d had to offer them and not pointing them down a false path I don't know what is. There is more as well but if we disagree here then nothing more I have to say will likely help.

The church of today has fallen even further than this, but has much of the same flawed understanding of G-d and what a relationship with him entails.

Please! Are we working under the framework now that Jesus thinks there is an animal perfect enough to sacrifice that God that would absolve your sins? That Jesus thinks that whatever coinage you possess is good enough to have a relationship with God? Why Noah is this Jesus operating under this framework and constrained by these 'den of robbers'? Whats the point of Jesus then? Do you think that if the 'robbers' did accept your coinage, if the 'robbers' did accept your animal and let you in the temple, that once through those temple doors, the place is suddenly a place of purity, honesty and integrity and you can have a genuine relationship with God? What a farce! I cant imagine that Jesus would be that foolish.

I forget, sociopathy is the new compassion, and Jesus loves you - as long as you have paid your taxes. Looks like nothings changed in 2000 years then.

Thats exactly what we have today! - Woe betide you if your house is burning down and you havn't paid the fire bill, if your taxes go up 25% and you cant afford them and loose your home. Its a big "Fuck-You you irresponsible douchebag" from the 'coin collecting' Christian Right - As demonstrated overwhelmingly on this very board.
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