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Revolution? Is it possible? - Page 2

post #41 of 48
11/14/10 at 1:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If you are going to alter understandings between us please let me know so I am sure of what position you are arguing from.

Fair enough.

Quote:
I knew after I wrote it that you would take this route. I should have been more verbal in my response. However you want to nitpick it, Jesus did not attack them for the reasons you are trying to assign. And they are not comparable except at a very basic level of there being a perception of exploitation.

It's good you knew this. It is a logical route to take.

But If I were you I would not be so dogmatic...his reasons are not as clear as one with a closed mind might like to portray and is certainly open to interpretation.

I can't say for sure you are wrong but there is evidence for numerous views on this.

There is even quite firm evidence the incident is an interpolation and never happened. I don't believe this personally (though I do believe the various translations are skewed and may be interposed) but a very strong argument can be made.

For example: the incident occurs at the start of John and at the end of the Synoptics which leads scholars to argue there were TWO incidents.

The quotes attributed to Jesus in the description are exact echoes of quotes in Jeremiah and no doubt are used to back up the prophetic credentials of the former - for sure the writers would not have been unaware of Jeremiah's quotes and the context of the Temple in prophecy. How could they be objective?

Quote:
Whatever the case, to draw it back to the topic, can you actually say you believe that Jesus would be out there with the protesters, tearing up the Tories offices and burning buildings and throwing A/C's off of the roofs? Do you believe that he would tell those doing so that it is ok to do so? He did not do so in Roman times, perhaps he has changed now?

I do not believe Jesus would have encouraged this behaviour - although he did instruct his disciples to buy weapons at one point in the Gospels - but I also do not believe he would have condemned it.

I don't see him condemning anyone really. Which is why the fig tree and `temple incidents in the Gospels are questionable and out of line with other portrayals in the same source.

A far more interesting set of questions to me would be along the lines of the following:

1) Do you think Jesus is the sole and only unique way to 'God'? (Are you Jewish btw Noah? Why write G-d?)

My answer would be no. He is one pathway of very, very many.

2) Do you think historically he was the only and unique way?

No...I think Moses and other Prophets in the Bible were also valid. In other traditions people like Buddha, Muhammad etc. Even atheism in the right hands could lead to 'God'.

3) Can these other ways be different?

Yes...Moses and Muhammad were warriors for example...Jesus may not have sought revolution but perhaps they would have. Christians can discount Muhammad as 'evil' because he waged war and fair enough...they will have a harder time dismissing Moses, King David and Joshua (all of whom they accept as being from their God) whose activities in this regard were far more extensive.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #42 of 48
11/14/10 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Fair enough.

It's good you knew this. It is a logical route to take.

But If I were you I would not be so dogmatic...his reasons are not as clear as one with a closed mind might like to portray and is certainly open to interpretation.

I can't say for sure you are wrong but there is evidence for numerous views on this.

There is even quite firm evidence the incident is an interpolation and never happened. I don't believe this personally (though I do believe the various translations are skewed and may be interposed) but a very strong argument can be made.

For example: the incident occurs at the start of John and at the end of the Synoptics which leads scholars to argue there were TWO incidents.

Yes, I am aware of the case for 2 separate instances. I only focused on the one as the other was similar enough.

Quote:
The quotes attributed to Jesus in the description are exact echoes of quotes in Jeremiah and no doubt are used to back up the prophetic credentials of the former - for sure the writers would not have been unaware of Jeremiah's quotes and the context of the Temple in prophecy. How could they be objective?

Granted, however being aware does not mean that it did not happen. You could however make the case that it was done to ensure fulfillment of the prophecy. I do not know if this was the case and likely will not this side of eternity.

Quote:
I do not believe Jesus would have encouraged this behaviour - although he did instruct his disciples to buy weapons at one point in the Gospels - but I also do not believe he would have condemned it.

Ok, condemned is a strong word, how about simply saying it is not the right way to approach this?

Quote:
I don't see him condemning anyone really. Which is why the fig tree and `temple incidents in the Gospels are questionable and out of line with other portrayals in the same source.

Well, I cannot say for sure that he would not condemn anyone. Calling the pharisees a whitewashed tomb is pretty close to a condmenation. And the Fig tree incident is odd as you say.

Quote:
A far more interesting set of questions to me would be along the lines of the following:

1) Do you think Jesus is the sole and only unique way to 'God'? (Are you Jewish btw Noah? Why write G-d?)

My answer would be no. He is one pathway of very, very many.

Not Jewish, just working on my understanding of G-d an trying the Jewish tradition of showing reverence. If nothing ever changes, nothing will ever change, including understanding.

Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Quote:
2) Do you think historically he was the only and unique way?

No...I think Moses and other Prophets in the Bible were also valid. In other traditions people like Buddha, Muhammad etc. Even atheism in the right hands could lead to 'God'.

I think that G-d intended for people to access him as in a relationship. I know that your view is shared by other Christians, and particularly see this in CS Lewis' writings like in his book "The last Battle" in the Narnia series. I have not made up my mind on this point.

Quote:
3) Can these other ways be different?

Yes...Moses and Muhammad were warriors for example...Jesus may not have sought revolution but perhaps they would have. Christians can discount Muhammad as 'evil' because he waged war and fair enough...they will have a harder time dismissing Moses, King David and Joshua (all of whom they accept as being from their God) whose activities in this regard were far more extensive.

Yes, but why did Jesus not seek revolution? I don't believe it was simply because he was a pacifist. There is evidence to show it was because that was not what he needed to accomplish at that time.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #43 of 48
11/14/10 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

If you did you would presumably know more about the topic though no?

Which topic...Marxism? How would you know what my knowledge base is on that topic? We haven't even begun to discuss it.
Quote:


What you call insults I call facts.

I doubt many people would agree. When you post about a member not having comprehension skills, or state that he is unable to read, or state that he's a warmonger wingnut, these are not facts. They are ad hominem arguments.

Quote:

But there's a simple remedy - go and study the issue and argue your point. Not only would you get respect but you'd also get less of what you call 'insults' because you would actually know what you're talking about.

I may do that, but it sure won't be to earn anyone's respect, especially yours. Speaking of insults, you do it again with this part of your post. You consistently imply that you are more intelligent and more informed than your opponent, no matter what the topic and no matter who the opponent. In my opinion, you'd have a lot more respect if you just argued on the merits instead of focusing on the reading comprehension skills of your opponent.

Quote:

Oth, I know it's a lot of effort so it's always an option to shout Obama is a commie, the Left want Eugenics and there is Shari'a law in US states.

I've never claimed any of that. Ever.

Quote:

Facts don't matter anyway if it's a certain result that is the aim so maybe you've got it right.

This, from the man who just started the thread on religious knowledge?
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #44 of 48
11/14/10 at 2:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes, I am aware of the case for 2 separate instances. I only focused on the one as the other was similar enough.

Granted, however being aware does not mean that it did not happen. You could however make the case that it was done to ensure fulfillment of the prophecy. I do not know if this was the case and likely will not this side of eternity.

True...we can't know these things for sure. I guess it all comes down to belief and I suppose some respect is needed there in the absence of certainty...if only because the other guy's opinion could possibly be true.

Quote:
Ok, condemned is a strong word, how about simply saying it is not the right way to approach this?

Yes...I think if one has the choice then this is a bad choice to make. Sometimes things are not choices but reactions though..I tend to a mechanistic view of humanity but could be wrong.

Quote:
Well, I cannot say for sure that he would not condemn anyone. Calling the pharisees a whitewashed tomb is pretty close to a condmenation. And the Fig tree incident is odd as you say.

True...some things are hard to gel together. But I do think there are translation issues...there HAVE to be logically don't there?

Quote:
Not Jewish, just working on my understanding of G-d an trying the Jewish tradition of showing reverence. If nothing ever changes, nothing will ever change, including understanding.

I can respect that. Such conscious effort is an important thing. I might have misjudged you a bit...

Quote:
I think that G-d intended for people to access him as in a relationship. I know that your view is shared by other Christians, and particularly see this in CS Lewis' writings like in his book "The last Battle" in the Narnia series. I have not made up my mind on this point.

I should clarify my position a bit more. I don't know whether it is possible to have a relationship with God...actually I do not know whether or not God exists. I take the position He does as a working hypothesis as it is preferable to me than an atheist position or a believer's position, neither of which I would be able to adopt without convincing myself of something in the absence of evidence.

Having said that, I do believe it is possible to find out whether or not God exists and that this may be one of the purposes or meanings of life. So that's kind of my path as it were.

Quote:
Yes, but why did Jesus not seek revolution? I don't believe it was simply because he was a pacifist. There is evidence to show it was because that was not what he needed to accomplish at that time.

I suppose that he could glimpse the bigger picture in a way which we cannot. So he knew what was appropriate or not based on the best or inevitable outcome and not on some more or less inflexible moral position which is often all we have to go on as humans.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #45 of 48
11/14/10 at 2:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Which topic...Marxism? How would you know what my knowledge base is on that topic? We haven't even begun to discuss it.

That's kind of my point.

[quote]
I doubt many people would agree. When you post about a member not having comprehension skills, or state that he is unable to read, or state that he's a warmonger wingnut, these are not facts. They are ad hominem arguments. [/qjuote]

Depends who I'm talking about doesn't it?

Quote:
I may do that, but it sure won't be to earn anyone's respect, especially yours. Speaking of insults, you do it again with this part of your post. You consistently imply that you are more intelligent and more informed than your opponent, no matter what the topic and no matter who the opponent. In my opinion, you'd have a lot more respect if you just argued on the merits instead of focusing on the reading comprehension skills of your opponent.

Yes..I can see that but many here TRY to argue the merits.....look what happens then.

Mumbo's ongoing attempts at dialogue with Trumpy would be a textbook example. It is made impossible for him to do so.

Quote:
This, from the man who just started the thread on religious knowledge?

It's an old thread SDW....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #46 of 48
11/24/10 at 3:10am
Thread Starter 
Looks like another Student Protest is kicking off today...seems the hotbed is my old University!! Proud to be an alumni of an institution which stands up for their rights.

Looks like the Police are out in force too....hopefully they won't send in the Goon Squad to cause some aggro and all can pass off peacefully.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #47 of 48
11/24/10 at 5:45am
Thread Starter 
Seems like there has been some violence....hopefully the police will reign themselves in....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #48 of 48
11/24/10 at 6:01am
Thread Starter 
Something odd: it looks like a Reality TV set-up.... whatever you think of the violence it seems that the media are sensationalizing it.

For example you can follow it on a live updating feed

And there is saturation coverage on the BBC

All of which is quite good in one way...it gives publicity and should the police wade in and start bashing heads again it will be well documented.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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