Brazilian billionaire hopes to court Apple for device assembly - Page 2

Originally Posted by Jume

Then Apple store would look like:

iPad - From 1299$
iPhone - From $999$
iPod classic - Just 677$
MacBook - From 2499$
MacBookPro - From 2999$
....

Originally Posted by AjitMD

How about investing in an automated assembly plant in the US? I am not talking about California, but there are other states where land is dirt cheap, labor costs are low with no unions. The states should be able to give tax brakes. Apple can lobby for accelerated depreciation for the plant or even expense a huge percentage.

With automation and economies of scale, shorter supply lines, the cost structure could be competitive,

Originally Posted by christopher126

Agreed. My only qualm with Apple is no manufacturing in the US. But the reality is, China labor costs are $1 an hour.

American autoworkers (including Japanese transplants) are making about $28/hr, Mexicans, $7/hr., Indians $4/hr and the Chinese $1/hr.

There in lies the realty!

Originally Posted by brlawyer

As a Brazilian citizen working overseas, I can only hope this is true, for the following reasons:

- We have the hottest girls on Earth, bar none;

Originally Posted by Radar

I agree that for ALL American companies (or companies from any country), job creation at home should be their number one priority. So many jobs have gone overseas yet everyone in the US seems to be wondering why their economy is collapsing. If seems pretty basic, if people don't have a good income they can't spend at home and keep their own economy afloat.

That said, if American companies are determined to keep jobs out of America and follow the cheapest labor (the 'China Price') then why not give Brazil a look, providing that IN LAW they provide for a good solid wage and better working conditions for their workers. Brazil might not be perfect but it's in our hemisphere and they have, at least internationally, a bit, perhaps a lot, more respect for basic human rights and freedom of expression than does China. It surprises me that Apple is quick to set up (sweat)shop in China but ignores a much freer and far less dangerous country in its own backyard - Cuba!

Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy

If Brazil would do away with their anti-import tariffs, you wouldn't need to produce the products in-country. Their protectionism is amazing and the fact that companies have to build product there to avoid the penalties is just dumb. Let them pay twice of what everyone else does until they open up their market to the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by msm859

We would still be better off as a country paying the $28/ hour to our own workers. How much would that actually add to the cost per unit? 1 -2 %? Apple would still prosper with a little less profit. Or maybe they should build a plant in Mexico -- help curb the flow of illegal immigrants.

Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson

If there is any truth in this report:

http://sacom.hk/wp-content/uploads/2...nes_sacom3.pdf

I hope Apple start manufacturing elsewhere. The idea that Foxconn didn't actually raise the wages of it's staff, and just announced to the press that they were going to in order to get the focus off the suicide issue is very troubling.

Originally Posted by Roos24

Always the same answer.

In Germany, people keep buying Mercedes and BMW at prices twice that of a comparable Lexus. Why? Because if they would buy a Lexus their money would leave the country and they would have to pay the unemployed in their own country. It's a double-edged sword. It works there, why would it not work here?

Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum

"I agree that for ALL American companies (or companies from any country), job creation at home should be their number one priority."

The purpose of a business is to make a profit at the risk of a loss!

Everything else is secondary! Without a profit, a company will cease to exist.

.

Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum

.

Some time early next year, I hope that Apple will embark on a OiPC program (One iPad Per Child) that builds upon the OLPC program.

One thing that an OiPC program could include is assembly, repair, maintenance of the devices in the targeted underdeveloped countries -- i.e. using jobs and self-sufficiency to boost the underdeveloped economy.

Further, this could be expanded to include jobs to support the ecosystem around the OiPC. Things like the WiFi stations, Cloud centers, Training, Programming, centers, etc.

Think of it: an underdeveloped village could deploy OiPC devices as well as a local support center -- where equipment and tools necessary to create OiPC apps could be made available to the very children targeted by the program.

The benefactors, the children, of the OiPC program could use existing apps to create art, paintings, music, videos that could be offered for sale through a special media store.

In addition, the children could learn to develop their own apps and sell them on a world-wide OiPC app store.

What better way for the benefactors, the children, to give something back to OiPC -- than to become a self-sufficient member the local society and economy while providing a role-model for those who follow.


That's what I hope for the promise of the iPad -- it's bigger than just Apple!


And, yes... I'll put my money where my mouth is -- I will happily support a BOGI (Buy One, Give It) or BTGB (Buy Two, Give Both) to support a OiPC effort.

.

Originally Posted by brlawyer

- Eike is probably one of the smartest entrepreneurs in the world today - he normally gets EVERYTHING he wants, so it's gonna be no surprise if he becomes the richest man anytime soon;
.

Originally Posted by msm859

We would still be better off as a country paying the $28/ hour to our own workers.

How much would that actually add to the cost per unit? 1 -2 %?

Apple would still prosper with a little less profit.

Or maybe they should build a plant in Mexico -- help curb the flow of illegal immigrants.

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

The reality is that these kind of jobs are *never* coming back to places like the USA/Canada/UK etc., and that this kind of job loss is more structural than situational.

Originally Posted by Roos24

The only place that Apple should produce its products is here, at home in the USA.

Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum

"I agree that for ALL American companies (or companies from any country), job creation at home should be their number one priority."

The purpose of a business is to make a profit at the risk of a loss!

Everything else is secondary! Without a profit, a company will cease to exist.

.

Originally Posted by digitalclips

Why would a high-tech automated assembly plant necessitate low wages? Fewer low or semi skilled workers perhaps but no reason why there shouldn't be plenty of well paid skilled people. Look at the potential in the new cloud plant in the Carolinas. Plus all the spin off potential for local business.

Originally Posted by Wiggin

Because American consumers are entitlement whores, believing they deserve everything at the lowest possible cost and don't care if it's good for their country. Only if it's good for themselves. The size of our families are half what the used to be, yet the size of our houses have doubled. And then we wonder why we can't afford the houses we bought while we sit trying to decide which of our multiple games systems we should play or which of our several cars we should drive that day. We can't afford good health care or good schools, but we can afford all the other non-essentials for a short-term fix to our happiness. We have no long-term vision. It's very much become a "what's in it for me" society. And unfortunately, we use the same mentality when electing our public officials, whose only interest is not what's best for the country, but what's best to get themselves re-elected by their entitlement minded constituents, campaign donors, and lobbyists. So the laws will never change and the people will always buy the cheaper overseas made product. Because that's what makes us happy today.

</rant>

Originally Posted by Radar

True enough but that's a given. After that obvious fact they must be responsible to their own citizens. American money and talent started those companies and nobody seems to question the fact that the very infrastructure these companies require (ports, roads, etc.) comes from the taxpayer's pocket.

As we've seen from Wall Street recently the good ol' USA is failing spectacularly in the new economy and we have an Everest of debt to countries such as China, which are dealing us an economic death of a thousand cuts. The most patriotic thing you can do is not to fight for your country in some ultimately losable overseas war, but to fight for your country at home. And that starts with jobs, education and health care that ensure your own are looked after and can compete in the international arena.

Originally Posted by Radar

That's not something to ever be proud of; it's something to be extremely ashamed of when so many people are going without basics such as food, shelter, health care, clean water or sanitation infrastructures, never mind iPhones. And this is true whether you're in the US or Brazil. I have no respect at all for anyone simply because they have heaps of $ but I do respect those few among the super-rich who've decided recently to distribute the vast majority of their wealth for the long-term good of all. Hence why I've done a 180 on my opinion of Bill Gates (even though I still prefer Macs

Originally Posted by Futuristic

Oh, geez. You're not one of those bleeding heart liberals, are you???

I have to say, while the OLPC program looks good and noble on its face, I'm not convinced of its effectiveness. Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but programs like this tend to benefit the people who run them more than the people they're ostensibly designed to serve.

I work with poor, rural communities on a daily basis, and I can tell you, technology is not the path to "salvation". The trouble with people who run OLPC and similar programs, is they have no concept of the importance and relevance of culture. They generally think, "If these poor people could see how AWESOME Western society and values are, they'll immediately see the light and turn their lives around, and poverty will disappear!" This is a very naïve and colonialist attitude.

The truth is, there's a lot of money to be made buy creating technologies ostensibly designed to serve the poor. The companies that build the hardware will gain significant "positive" exposure in the press for their generosity, and will probably also get a lot of subsidies/grants/donations for the program, so it won't cost them very much at all to build the OLPCs. Microsoft also gets more exposure by becoming the de facto OS environment, so it's certainly in their interest to support such a program as well. The trouble is, those technologies are so far outside the cultural paradigm in which poor communities exist and function, that once the people who run the program leave, the technology is abandoned by the communities. I've seen high-tech water pumps break down, because the parts for them are so specialized that they can't be maintained locally. I've seen solar panels stripped for partsthe metal frames, wiring, etc., are useful in other applications. The same would be true with distributing laptops to poor, rural communities. It's simply not a sustainable investment, and doesn't fit into the cultural paradigm.

The best and most effective way to serve the poor is to work within their cultural paradigm to help them gain a sense of dignity, a sense of empowermentthen, if they find their own need for computers, they can ask for them. But it has to be their choice.

Originally Posted by Robin Huber

That would be fine with me. It was AgitMD's anti-union comment that set me off. For most of the last century we had a strong manufacturing base with union labor AND low prices. Those jobs allowed our parents and grandparents to be the first generation to send their kids to college--a strong middle class. Then our greedy generation, not satisfied with the plenty we already had, boosted profits even more by shipping those jobs overseas.

Originally Posted by roos24

the only place that apple should produce its products is here, at home in the usa.

Enough already with sending labor overseas and 10% unemployment here, while letting wall street tell us how well we're doing! We need to produce everything, and then sell the products we make. The current situation is simply not sustainable.

Originally Posted by Robin Huber

Oh yes, let's exploit our own workers by low-balling their salaries and denying them benefits. If China and others had real independent labor unions like ours there wouldn't be the sweat shops that keep the costs of our consumer goods so low.

Yes, bring the jobs home, but make them good jobs that can allow a family to send their kids to college or trade schools, not just subsist in Appalachia.

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

I am by no means an expert on this topic, but I'm fairly certain that it's not just the wages. The way the Chinese economy is set up, it would be cheaper by far to do an automated factory in China than the USA, so even if they could find a way to make an automated USA factory competitive with the current factories in China, if they transposed that new automated factory to China instead, then they would save even more.

The reality is that these kind of jobs are *never* coming back to places like the USA/Canada/UK etc., and that this kind of job loss is more structural than situational.

Originally Posted by Atanner

As I said, I don't know the economics of it, but I certainly could imagine the GREAT PR it would get if Apple said tomorrow 'we are moving all our manufacturing jobs to the US' ! It would make a huge statement to the rest of the big businesses who are sitting on top of huge cash surpluses while millions of Americans are out of work. That kind of good PR would have to generate income down the road.

Originally Posted by AjitMD

How about investing in an automated assembly plant in the US? I am not talking about California, but there are other states where land is dirt cheap, labor costs are low with no unions. The states should be able to give tax brakes. Apple can lobby for accelerated depreciation for the plant or even expense a huge percentage.

With automation and economies of scale, shorter supply lines, the cost structure could be competitive,

Originally Posted by techno

I don't know the economics of this, but wouldn't it be nice if Apple actually manufactured it's products in California and a few other states? I am sure Californians could use it these days. And why not Kentucky? I would love to track my new MacBook Pro on it's journey from Hemit, California to Ontario International Airport and then to Montreal.

As I said, I don't know the economics of it, but I certainly could imagine the GREAT PR it would get if Apple said tomorrow 'we are moving all our manufacturing jobs to the US' ! It would make a huge statement to the rest of the big businesses who are sitting on top of huge cash surpluses while millions of Americans are out of work. That kind of good PR would have to generate income down the road.

Originally Posted by Roos24

The only place that Apple should produce its products is here, at home in the USA.

Enough already with sending labor overseas and 10% unemployment here, while letting Wall Street tell us how well we're doing! We need to produce everything, and then sell the products we make. The current situation is simply not sustainable.

Originally Posted by Roos24

Always the same answer.

In Germany, people keep buying Mercedes and BMW at prices twice that of a comparable Lexus. Why? Because if they would buy a Lexus their money would leave the country and they would have to pay the unemployed in their own country. It's a double-edged sword. It works there, why would it not work here?

Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum

First: I have never been called a bleeding heart liberal!

Third: I believe that I have an obligation to share some of the successes I have had -- and help others in the ways I can.

The OLPC project was one of good intentions -- but soon became moribund with politics, egos, special interests.

I do not pretend to have the answers!

What I would like to see is a foundation to bring the benefits of technology * to the poor. IMO, that means take a hot product, in demand, and find a way for the underprivileged to exploit that demand to gain dignity and self-sufficiency.

* to some the benefits of technology might be a meal, a vaccine -- to others it may be a job, an education, an opportunity to improve their life.

I agree that there will always be others that divert the benefits to their own ends.

However, that doesn't mean you don't try.

I say that the abilities that can produce an iPad at a cost of $260, can be channeled to address the issues of the underprivileged.

For example, hire some of them and ask them what needs to be done, and how -- to improve their lot. Let them, with some guidance, design the solutions -- with the opportunity to fail, and learn from their failure. Then go back again and try until they succeed.

Then take that failure/success experience and make it into a deliverable that can be tailored and massively and efficiently deployed.

I believe that, done properly, technology can help the underprivileged -- maybe introducing manufacturing and jobs where there were none is a good first step! But that is not enough, there must be a second, third step... potential for growth and self-realization.

You help the poor by working with them -- not becoming one of them!

Originally Posted by techno

I don't know the economics of this, but wouldn't it be nice if Apple actually manufactured it's products in California and a few other states? I am sure Californians could use it these days. And why not Kentucky? I would love to track my new MacBook Pro on it's journey from Hemit, California to Ontario International Airport and then to Montreal.

As I said, I don't know the economics of it, but I certainly could imagine the GREAT PR it would get if Apple said tomorrow 'we are moving all our manufacturing jobs to the US' ! It would make a huge statement to the rest of the big businesses who are sitting on top of huge cash surpluses while millions of Americans are out of work. That kind of good PR would have to generate income down the road.

Originally Posted by Atanner

It may or may not be good PR for Apple to produce products in the US. More than half of their products are sold outside the US. The non US markets are Apple's fastest growing. The United States is no longer the center of the universe.

Originally Posted by zoetmb

While I agree that it would be great to produce Apple product in the U.S., as they originally did (in California), there's no way that could happen without a substantial increase in retail prices...probably double. Chinese workers are currently working for the equivalent of $135 a month. Even U.S. minimum wage would cost a lot more money. Furthermore, Chinese manufacturing works on very short margins. (And this is why I think pushing the Chinese to increase the value of their currency is a joke. Even if their currency doubled in value, it still wouldn't return any manufacturing to the U.S.)

So the question becomes how much extra would you be willing to pay for Apple products if they were willing to return manufacturing to the U.S.? My view is that we live in a culture where people seek products at the lowest possible prices. People buy online from vendors who charge $5 less on $1000 products. People shop in WalMart or online to save a few bucks over keeping local businesses on Main Street viable. I don't think the American people are willing to pay more to keep manufacturing in the U.S. I don't even think they were willing to do this before the current poor economy.

Originally Posted by Robin Huber

Instead of thinking in terms of closing down Foxconn and moving all Apple manufacture from China to the U.S., how about baby steps?

1) A new, yet to be announced (or even thought about) product line. Start planning from the ground up for being completely made in the USA. If labor and other costs increase the MSRP too much, then subsidize it a little from the profits made on other Apple lines. For the good of the country.

2) Move a smaller less technical current product such as the iPod Shuffle back here.

Use either of the above as a proof-of-concept. An investment in Americas. Over time, costs may even out as China's wages and cost of living begin to rise. Hell, as an Apple stockholder I don't get any dividends anyway.

Originally Posted by zoetmb

So the question becomes how much extra would you be willing to pay for Apple products if they were willing to return manufacturing to the U.S.?