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Brazilian billionaire hopes to court Apple for device assembly - Page 2

post #41 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jume View Post

Then Apple store would look like:

iPad - From 1299$
iPhone - From $999$
iPod classic - Just 677$
MacBook - From 2499$
MacBookPro - From 2999$
....


Except those numbers are obviously wrong. How long does it take to build an iPhone? Less than 1 hour. So I don't see how the actual costs would go up more than $10.00 -- you can even double that and our country would be better off if they were built in the USA.
post #42 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

How about investing in an automated assembly plant in the US? I am not talking about California, but there are other states where land is dirt cheap, labor costs are low with no unions. The states should be able to give tax brakes. Apple can lobby for accelerated depreciation for the plant or even expense a huge percentage.

With automation and economies of scale, shorter supply lines, the cost structure could be competitive,

It's been done (and undone):


Quote:
1984 January
  • Marketing: Apple landmark "1984" commercial that introduces the Macintosh personal computer airs during the SuperBowl broadcast. This is the only time Apple will run the spot, but over the following weeks it is replayed by dozens of news and talk shows, making "1984" one of the most memorable ads in TV history.
  • Product: Macintosh unveiled at Apple's annual shareholders meeting to be sold for $2,495.
  • Marketing: Apple inserts a 20-page ad for Macintosh in major magazines and sets new records for readership and recall scores.
  • Marketing: Apple University Consortium announced. Twenty-four leading colleges and universities agree to conduct major development programs with the Macintosh, and commit $61 million in sales to the project over a three year period.
  • Manufacturing: A new factory, designed and built for the production of Macintosh computers, is officially opened in Fremont, CA. The facility is one of the nation's most automated plants and uses many Japanese manufacturing methods: robotics, just-in-time materials delivery, a linear assembly line, and an improved quality of life for workers.


1992 September
  • Corporate: Apple realigns its worldwide manufacturing and distribution activities. Fremont facility will be relocated to the Sacramento facility.
  • Product: Apple launches the Macintosh Performa(tm) Line, a new family of computers designed for the consumer marketplace. With the introduction of the Performa line, Macintosh products are available for the first time through mass merchandisers and superstores.


http://www.macmothership.com/timeline.html
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post #43 of 115
but I'd sure love to buy something, ANYTHING... that didn't have Made in China stenciled on it somewhere for a change!
post #44 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Agreed. My only qualm with Apple is no manufacturing in the US. But the reality is, China labor costs are $1 an hour.

American autoworkers (including Japanese transplants) are making about $28/hr, Mexicans, $7/hr., Indians $4/hr and the Chinese $1/hr.

There in lies the realty!

We would still be better off as a country paying the $28/ hour to our own workers. How much would that actually add to the cost per unit? 1 -2 %? Apple would still prosper with a little less profit. Or maybe they should build a plant in Mexico -- help curb the flow of illegal immigrants.
post #45 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post

As a Brazilian citizen working overseas, I can only hope this is true, for the following reasons:

- We have the hottest girls on Earth, bar none;

Not sure about that. I would say Russia has the edge there.. But each to their own.
The rest of your comment was very informative - thank you!
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post #46 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post

I agree that for ALL American companies (or companies from any country), job creation at home should be their number one priority. So many jobs have gone overseas yet everyone in the US seems to be wondering why their economy is collapsing. If seems pretty basic, if people don't have a good income they can't spend at home and keep their own economy afloat.

That said, if American companies are determined to keep jobs out of America and follow the cheapest labor (the 'China Price') then why not give Brazil a look, providing that IN LAW they provide for a good solid wage and better working conditions for their workers. Brazil might not be perfect but it's in our hemisphere and they have, at least internationally, a bit, perhaps a lot, more respect for basic human rights and freedom of expression than does China. It surprises me that Apple is quick to set up (sweat)shop in China but ignores a much freer and far less dangerous country in its own backyard - Cuba!

"I agree that for ALL American companies (or companies from any country), job creation at home should be their number one priority."

The purpose of a business is to make a profit at the risk of a loss!

Everything else is secondary! Without a profit, a company will cease to exist.

.
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post #47 of 115
By the way I've been to Brazil a couple of times and must say the people are great, I've been to several places for work, but Brazil is the only place I could see myself going back to for a personal trip.

However their government there sucks badly. The tarrifs they have in place do nothing but keep the people poor. Frankly they need yet another revolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post

If Brazil would do away with their anti-import tariffs, you wouldn't need to produce the products in-country. Their protectionism is amazing and the fact that companies have to build product there to avoid the penalties is just dumb. Let them pay twice of what everyone else does until they open up their market to the rest of the world.
post #48 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by msm859 View Post

We would still be better off as a country paying the $28/ hour to our own workers. How much would that actually add to the cost per unit? 1 -2 %? Apple would still prosper with a little less profit. Or maybe they should build a plant in Mexico -- help curb the flow of illegal immigrants.

if apple only sells its products in US, having its manufacture factories in US makes sense. otherwise, how could apple products compete outside of US? ios devices would have none competitions against andriod devices, assuming andriods are made outside of US.

the only way to make in US is to have 100% or near 100% automated factory, but then saving jobs will be a moot point because if a factory is 100% automated, not much jobs are created.

to solve our issue is to pour more R&D money and invent newer stuff, instead of paying zillions to wall street. i agreed that making money on wall street is much faster and easier than that hard core high tech, but, former can not create more jobs while latter can.
post #49 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

If there is any truth in this report:

http://sacom.hk/wp-content/uploads/2...nes_sacom3.pdf

I hope Apple start manufacturing elsewhere. The idea that Foxconn didn't actually raise the wages of it's staff, and just announced to the press that they were going to in order to get the focus off the suicide issue is very troubling.

The really troubling thing is that the suicide rate among Foxconn workers is less than the Chinese population as a whole yet people keep saying it is problem.

The working conditions at Foxconn are no doubt awful when compared to the west. However, when you start comparing the conditions to others in China they are far from the worst.

The real problem is that we want things cheap. Guess what folks, there are consequences to that. Do like it? Stop buying products made in China.

-kpluck

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post #50 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

Always the same answer.

In Germany, people keep buying Mercedes and BMW at prices twice that of a comparable Lexus. Why? Because if they would buy a Lexus their money would leave the country and they would have to pay the unemployed in their own country. It's a double-edged sword. It works there, why would it not work here?

Because American consumers are entitlement whores, believing they deserve everything at the lowest possible cost and don't care if it's good for their country. Only if it's good for themselves. The size of our families are half what the used to be, yet the size of our houses have doubled. And then we wonder why we can't afford the houses we bought while we sit trying to decide which of our multiple games systems we should play or which of our several cars we should drive that day. We can't afford good health care or good schools, but we can afford all the other non-essentials for a short-term fix to our happiness. We have no long-term vision. It's very much become a "what's in it for me" society. And unfortunately, we use the same mentality when electing our public officials, whose only interest is not what's best for the country, but what's best to get themselves re-elected by their entitlement minded constituents, campaign donors, and lobbyists. So the laws will never change and the people will always buy the cheaper overseas made product. Because that's what makes us happy today.

</rant>
post #51 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

"I agree that for ALL American companies (or companies from any country), job creation at home should be their number one priority."

The purpose of a business is to make a profit at the risk of a loss!

Everything else is secondary! Without a profit, a company will cease to exist.

.

Unless of course you can get huge government subsidies to prop up your business. I recently read an article about how the corn ethanol industry gets 45 cents/gallon to make ethanol, and they now make so much of it they have to export some. So US taxpayers are now subsidizing the ethanol being used in other countries!
post #52 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

.

Some time early next year, I hope that Apple will embark on a OiPC program (One iPad Per Child) that builds upon the OLPC program.

One thing that an OiPC program could include is assembly, repair, maintenance of the devices in the targeted underdeveloped countries -- i.e. using jobs and self-sufficiency to boost the underdeveloped economy.

Further, this could be expanded to include jobs to support the ecosystem around the OiPC. Things like the WiFi stations, Cloud centers, Training, Programming, centers, etc.

Think of it: an underdeveloped village could deploy OiPC devices as well as a local support center -- where equipment and tools necessary to create OiPC apps could be made available to the very children targeted by the program.

The benefactors, the children, of the OiPC program could use existing apps to create art, paintings, music, videos that could be offered for sale through a special media store.

In addition, the children could learn to develop their own apps and sell them on a world-wide OiPC app store.

What better way for the benefactors, the children, to give something back to OiPC -- than to become a self-sufficient member the local society and economy while providing a role-model for those who follow.


That's what I hope for the promise of the iPad -- it's bigger than just Apple!


And, yes... I'll put my money where my mouth is -- I will happily support a BOGI (Buy One, Give It) or BTGB (Buy Two, Give Both) to support a OiPC effort.

.

Oh, geez. You're not one of those bleeding heart liberals, are you???

I have to say, while the OLPC program looks good and noble on its face, I'm not convinced of its effectiveness. Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but programs like this tend to benefit the people who run them more than the people they're ostensibly designed to serve.

I work with poor, rural communities on a daily basis, and I can tell you, technology is not the path to "salvation". The trouble with people who run OLPC and similar programs, is they have no concept of the importance and relevance of culture. They generally think, "If these poor people could see how AWESOME Western society and values are, they'll immediately see the light and turn their lives around, and poverty will disappear!" This is a very naïve and colonialist attitude.

The truth is, there's a lot of money to be made buy creating technologies ostensibly designed to serve the poor. The companies that build the hardware will gain significant "positive" exposure in the press for their generosity, and will probably also get a lot of subsidies/grants/donations for the program, so it won't cost them very much at all to build the OLPCs. Microsoft also gets more exposure by becoming the de facto OS environment, so it's certainly in their interest to support such a program as well. The trouble is, those technologies are so far outside the cultural paradigm in which poor communities exist and function, that once the people who run the program leave, the technology is abandoned by the communities. I've seen high-tech water pumps break down, because the parts for them are so specialized that they can't be maintained locally. I've seen solar panels stripped for partsthe metal frames, wiring, etc., are useful in other applications. The same would be true with distributing laptops to poor, rural communities. It's simply not a sustainable investment, and doesn't fit into the cultural paradigm.

The best and most effective way to serve the poor is to work within their cultural paradigm to help them gain a sense of dignity, a sense of empowermentthen, if they find their own need for computers, they can ask for them. But it has to be their choice.
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post #53 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post

- Eike is probably one of the smartest entrepreneurs in the world today - he normally gets EVERYTHING he wants, so it's gonna be no surprise if he becomes the richest man anytime soon;
.

That's not something to ever be proud of; it's something to be extremely ashamed of when so many people are going without basics such as food, shelter, health care, clean water or sanitation infrastructures, never mind iPhones. And this is true whether you're in the US or Brazil. I have no respect at all for anyone simply because they have heaps of $ but I do respect those few among the super-rich who've decided recently to distribute the vast majority of their wealth for the long-term good of all. Hence why I've done a 180 on my opinion of Bill Gates (even though I still prefer Macs
post #54 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by msm859 View Post

We would still be better off as a country paying the $28/ hour to our own workers.

The Problem is that $28 an hour is what labor might get. In the US each worker actually costs the company much more that in benefits and hidden taxes. It could very well cost a company $56 an hour to keep that person on the payroll. It turns into big money fast and is one of the reasons companies in trouble lay off people so quickly.
Quote:
How much would that actually add to the cost per unit? 1 -2 %?

Wishful thinking; try 50-100%.
Quote:
Apple would still prosper with a little less profit.

There is an old adage that says in business you make your monet not by what you sell a product for but by what you can buy it for. Especislly in Apples case when selling so much of its product line to consummers. For any given economy there is a limit to what people are willing to pay for an item, thus any profits you might want to make as a company have to come from buying the item at low cost.

In other words how many iPods would Apple sell if the price doubled or tripled so that they could put a made in the USA sticker on the device.
Quote:
Or maybe they should build a plant in Mexico -- help curb the flow of illegal immigrants.

The best way to curb the flow of illegal immigrants is with the extensive use of lead.

In any event I really don't think people have a clue when they start to whine about bringing iPod ( or whatever) manufacturing back to the USA. The entire consummer electronics industry moved overseas years ago, Apple would have to virtually import everything required to build "I" device anyways. There is little to no supporting industry in this country anymore. If there is, the difference in pricing is massive; just try quoting bare PC boards to get an idea.

The only thing I can suggest for people like you is to actually go out and get quotes on the parts that go into your favorite "I" device as made in the USA items. I highly doubt that you could get a finished PC board for the price of an iPod. Especially if all the chips and other hardware on the board are made in the US.
post #55 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

The reality is that these kind of jobs are *never* coming back to places like the USA/Canada/UK etc., and that this kind of job loss is more structural than situational.

I think they will eventually. By the time China's growth hits a peak, our children will be on their knees and working for a pittance.
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post #56 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

The only place that Apple should produce its products is here, at home in the USA.

Why is the average income in the US higher than in China? Apart from investment income (which is really just an integration of the past income) simply because the average wage is higher in the US than in China.

If every country would produce all the products and services used by its inhabitants within its own borders, every person could on average only consume as much products as one single person could produce. Now, if you integrate all the working hours going into the products consumed by an average person in the US, this would by multiples of what this person actually works. In a sense this like having, I don't know maybe dozens of, slaves working for you.
(There is a second component to this, it has been estimated that the personal energy consumption is about equivalent to having 200 slaves.)

Now, when you get unemployed in a rich country and have to live of social benefits or very low-paying irregular jobs, you have essentially lost your slaves and have to restrict your consumption to a much lower level, much closer to that of an average human on earth.

What globalisation does, is a partial global redistribution of slaves. On top of that there is in a number of countries an internal redistribution of slaves (those at top get more).

Income is just a fictive number, it is about (a) having others work for you and (b) consuming energy, both multiplied with their efficiency.
post #57 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

"I agree that for ALL American companies (or companies from any country), job creation at home should be their number one priority."

The purpose of a business is to make a profit at the risk of a loss!

Everything else is secondary! Without a profit, a company will cease to exist.

.

True enough but that's a given. After that obvious fact they must be responsible to their own citizens. American money and talent started those companies and nobody seems to question the fact that the very infrastructure these companies require (ports, roads, etc.) comes from the taxpayer's pocket.

As we've seen from Wall Street recently the good ol' USA is failing spectacularly in the new economy and we have an Everest of debt to countries such as China, which are dealing us an economic death of a thousand cuts. The most patriotic thing you can do is not to fight for your country in some ultimately losable overseas war, but to fight for your country at home. And that starts with jobs, education and health care that ensure your own are looked after and can compete in the international arena.
post #58 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Why would a high-tech automated assembly plant necessitate low wages? Fewer low or semi skilled workers perhaps but no reason why there shouldn't be plenty of well paid skilled people. Look at the potential in the new cloud plant in the Carolinas. Plus all the spin off potential for local business.

That would be fine with me. It was AgitMD's anti-union comment that set me off. For most of the last century we had a strong manufacturing base with union labor AND low prices. Those jobs allowed our parents and grandparents to be the first generation to send their kids to college--a strong middle class. Then our greedy generation, not satisfied with the plenty we already had, boosted profits even more by shipping those jobs overseas.
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post #59 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Because American consumers are entitlement whores, believing they deserve everything at the lowest possible cost and don't care if it's good for their country. Only if it's good for themselves. The size of our families are half what the used to be, yet the size of our houses have doubled. And then we wonder why we can't afford the houses we bought while we sit trying to decide which of our multiple games systems we should play or which of our several cars we should drive that day. We can't afford good health care or good schools, but we can afford all the other non-essentials for a short-term fix to our happiness. We have no long-term vision. It's very much become a "what's in it for me" society. And unfortunately, we use the same mentality when electing our public officials, whose only interest is not what's best for the country, but what's best to get themselves re-elected by their entitlement minded constituents, campaign donors, and lobbyists. So the laws will never change and the people will always buy the cheaper overseas made product. Because that's what makes us happy today.

</rant>

Simply brilliant. I was just about to make a similar rant before I saw yours. I can add that unions, bloated pensions, corporate AND consumer greed, and taxes up the whazooo, have also made our economy tremble. We are the Roman empire in 2010 ... it's all there you only have to go pick up any of the many parallel books written an the subject. And we all know what happened to Rome.

I fear for the once mighty US. I really do!
post #60 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post

True enough but that's a given. After that obvious fact they must be responsible to their own citizens. American money and talent started those companies and nobody seems to question the fact that the very infrastructure these companies require (ports, roads, etc.) comes from the taxpayer's pocket.

As we've seen from Wall Street recently the good ol' USA is failing spectacularly in the new economy and we have an Everest of debt to countries such as China, which are dealing us an economic death of a thousand cuts. The most patriotic thing you can do is not to fight for your country in some ultimately losable overseas war, but to fight for your country at home. And that starts with jobs, education and health care that ensure your own are looked after and can compete in the international arena.

I wish it could be like that. But it won't work for the same reason we are so unhealthy as a nation. It's not the lack of access to health care. It's because we want the cheap, instant gratification of a Big Mac or Whopper or <insert whatever junk food here>. No cares about the long-term consequences. No individual accountability.

And our companies and individuals behave in similar ways. Apple is one of the rare companies that don't rely on credit for their day-to-day operations. Just like so many people rely on their credit cards to make ends meet. We don't want to pay more for "made in the USA", just like companies don't want to pay more to "make in the USA."

To paraphrase Steve Jobs: "The manufacturing wars are over. They won. It's time for us to get to work on the next big thing."
post #61 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post

That's not something to ever be proud of; it's something to be extremely ashamed of when so many people are going without basics such as food, shelter, health care, clean water or sanitation infrastructures, never mind iPhones. And this is true whether you're in the US or Brazil. I have no respect at all for anyone simply because they have heaps of $ but I do respect those few among the super-rich who've decided recently to distribute the vast majority of their wealth for the long-term good of all. Hence why I've done a 180 on my opinion of Bill Gates (even though I still prefer Macs

Well, first of all, Brazil is today a middle-class country...so it's not like we have 2 billionaires and the rest suffering from hunger as in some African countries.

Second, Eike's success obviously extends to the various companies he owns/manages - so if he succeeds, there is more employment to people, simple as that - and he already donates a lot of money to development/social projects in Brazil, especially in his home town Rio de Janeiro.

Third, Brazil has long been known for its inegality - however, its Gini coefficient is quickly advancing to the same number as the US, so we definitely see great improvements there, EVEN with the highest set of taxes on the planet (and yes, we do have the most expensive Apple products compared to other places).

As for BG, it's nice to see him donating some money to others - just don't forget how he's got it in the first place.
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post #62 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic View Post

Oh, geez. You're not one of those bleeding heart liberals, are you???

I have to say, while the OLPC program looks good and noble on its face, I'm not convinced of its effectiveness. Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but programs like this tend to benefit the people who run them more than the people they're ostensibly designed to serve.

I work with poor, rural communities on a daily basis, and I can tell you, technology is not the path to "salvation". The trouble with people who run OLPC and similar programs, is they have no concept of the importance and relevance of culture. They generally think, "If these poor people could see how AWESOME Western society and values are, they'll immediately see the light and turn their lives around, and poverty will disappear!" This is a very naïve and colonialist attitude.

The truth is, there's a lot of money to be made buy creating technologies ostensibly designed to serve the poor. The companies that build the hardware will gain significant "positive" exposure in the press for their generosity, and will probably also get a lot of subsidies/grants/donations for the program, so it won't cost them very much at all to build the OLPCs. Microsoft also gets more exposure by becoming the de facto OS environment, so it's certainly in their interest to support such a program as well. The trouble is, those technologies are so far outside the cultural paradigm in which poor communities exist and function, that once the people who run the program leave, the technology is abandoned by the communities. I've seen high-tech water pumps break down, because the parts for them are so specialized that they can't be maintained locally. I've seen solar panels stripped for partsthe metal frames, wiring, etc., are useful in other applications. The same would be true with distributing laptops to poor, rural communities. It's simply not a sustainable investment, and doesn't fit into the cultural paradigm.

The best and most effective way to serve the poor is to work within their cultural paradigm to help them gain a sense of dignity, a sense of empowermentthen, if they find their own need for computers, they can ask for them. But it has to be their choice.

First: I have never been called a bleeding heart liberal!

Second: I have owned a business and made a payroll.

Third: I believe that I have an obligation to share some of the successes I have had -- and help others in the ways I can.

The OLPC project was one of good intentions -- but soon became moribund with politics, egos, special interests.

I have seen slums in Bed-Sty, Detroit, Lima, Torremolinos, Nogales, Ciudad Juarez, and the homeless in the streets and parks all over the USA...

I do not pretend to have the answers!

Back to OLPC!


What I would like to see is a foundation to bring the benefits of technology * to the poor. IMO, that means take a hot product, in demand, and find a way for the underprivileged to exploit that demand to gain dignity and self-sufficiency.

* to some the benefits of technology might be a meal, a vaccine -- to others it may be a job, an education, an opportunity to improve their life.

I agree that there will always be others that divert the benefits to their own ends.

However, that doesn't mean you don't try.

I say that the abilities that can produce an iPad at a cost of $260, can be channeled to address the issues of the underprivileged.

For example, hire some of them and ask them what needs to be done, and how -- to improve their lot. Let them, with some guidance, design the solutions -- with the opportunity to fail, and learn from their failure. Then go back again and try until they succeed.

Then take that failure/success experience and make it into a deliverable that can be tailored and massively and efficiently deployed.

I believe that, done properly, technology can help the underprivileged -- maybe introducing manufacturing and jobs where there were none is a good first step! But that is not enough, there must be a second, third step... potential for growth and self-realization.

You help the poor by working with them -- not becoming one of them!

/sermon

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post #63 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

That would be fine with me. It was AgitMD's anti-union comment that set me off. For most of the last century we had a strong manufacturing base with union labor AND low prices. Those jobs allowed our parents and grandparents to be the first generation to send their kids to college--a strong middle class. Then our greedy generation, not satisfied with the plenty we already had, boosted profits even more by shipping those jobs overseas.

Pretty much sums it up. And those days will only start to return when we put aside political tribalism and realise those we put in power have every intention of keeping it that way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/op...stof.html?_r=2

I'm not really into politics but if you think between 1980 and 2005 parties of all persuasion have held power. It's the same here in the UK.
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post #64 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by roos24 View Post

the only place that apple should produce its products is here, at home in the usa.

Enough already with sending labor overseas and 10% unemployment here, while letting wall street tell us how well we're doing! We need to produce everything, and then sell the products we make. The current situation is simply not sustainable.

amen!

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post #65 of 115
Really? Who care's what this billionaire does with his privates. What about a Bushy Billionaire?
post #66 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Oh yes, let's exploit our own workers by low-balling their salaries and denying them benefits. If China and others had real independent labor unions like ours there wouldn't be the sweat shops that keep the costs of our consumer goods so low.

Yes, bring the jobs home, but make them good jobs that can allow a family to send their kids to college or trade schools, not just subsist in Appalachia.

Indeed. And with Apple's absurd profit margins it wouldn't kill them to pay Americans a fair wage to build Apple products. It's not like they have to do that to compete with lower cost goods. I'm really surprised Apple is treated with kid gloves on this whole "build in China" thing. Seems greed is good for Apple, but not anywhere else in the US. The goodwill Apple would receive by brining home jobs would be substantial. It's overdue.
post #67 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I am by no means an expert on this topic, but I'm fairly certain that it's not just the wages. The way the Chinese economy is set up, it would be cheaper by far to do an automated factory in China than the USA, so even if they could find a way to make an automated USA factory competitive with the current factories in China, if they transposed that new automated factory to China instead, then they would save even more.

The reality is that these kind of jobs are *never* coming back to places like the USA/Canada/UK etc., and that this kind of job loss is more structural than situational.

And that right there is one of the reasons the US is in the economic mess we are in. Greed. The profit is the most important driving decision maker with large companies now. Loyalty to workers and country do not exist any longer. Pension from a company? Are you kidding? A decent living wage? Sure! The US middle class has all but disappeared.

There can be a balance between profit and corporate responsibility to the work force/country. Do we always have to make the most money possible? Apple is sitting on $46 Billion in cash. The top US companies are hoarding close to a Trillion Dollars in cash. I am sorry but I think Apple can build in the US and still make a profit.

It is time for companies like Apple to help fix our country by putting Americans to work.

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post #68 of 115
As I said, I don't know the economics of it, but I certainly could imagine the GREAT PR it would get if Apple said tomorrow 'we are moving all our manufacturing jobs to the US' ! It would make a huge statement to the rest of the big businesses who are sitting on top of huge cash surpluses while millions of Americans are out of work. That kind of good PR would have to generate income down the road.[/QUOTE]


It may or may not be good PR for Apple to produce products in the US. More than half of their products are sold outside the US. The non US markets are Apple's fastest growing. The United States is no longer the center of the universe.
post #69 of 115
I would much rather see manufacturing in Brazil as well. However apple is much too invested in Foxxcon to move.
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post #70 of 115
best idea I ever heard.
post #71 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanner View Post

As I said, I don't know the economics of it, but I certainly could imagine the GREAT PR it would get if Apple said tomorrow 'we are moving all our manufacturing jobs to the US' ! It would make a huge statement to the rest of the big businesses who are sitting on top of huge cash surpluses while millions of Americans are out of work. That kind of good PR would have to generate income down the road.


ok now THAT's the best idea I ever heard.
post #72 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

How about investing in an automated assembly plant in the US? I am not talking about California, but there are other states where land is dirt cheap, labor costs are low with no unions. The states should be able to give tax brakes. Apple can lobby for accelerated depreciation for the plant or even expense a huge percentage.

With automation and economies of scale, shorter supply lines, the cost structure could be competitive,

Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

I don't know the economics of this, but wouldn't it be nice if Apple actually manufactured it's products in California and a few other states? I am sure Californians could use it these days. And why not Kentucky? I would love to track my new MacBook Pro on it's journey from Hemit, California to Ontario International Airport and then to Montreal.

As I said, I don't know the economics of it, but I certainly could imagine the GREAT PR it would get if Apple said tomorrow 'we are moving all our manufacturing jobs to the US' ! It would make a huge statement to the rest of the big businesses who are sitting on top of huge cash surpluses while millions of Americans are out of work. That kind of good PR would have to generate income down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

The only place that Apple should produce its products is here, at home in the USA.

Enough already with sending labor overseas and 10% unemployment here, while letting Wall Street tell us how well we're doing! We need to produce everything, and then sell the products we make. The current situation is simply not sustainable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

Always the same answer.

In Germany, people keep buying Mercedes and BMW at prices twice that of a comparable Lexus. Why? Because if they would buy a Lexus their money would leave the country and they would have to pay the unemployed in their own country. It's a double-edged sword. It works there, why would it not work here?

While I agree that it would be great to produce Apple product in the U.S., as they originally did (in California), there's no way that could happen without a substantial increase in retail prices...probably double. Chinese workers are currently working for the equivalent of $135 a month. Even U.S. minimum wage would cost a lot more money. Furthermore, Chinese manufacturing works on very short margins. (And this is why I think pushing the Chinese to increase the value of their currency is a joke. Even if their currency doubled in value, it still wouldn't return any manufacturing to the U.S.)

So the question becomes how much extra would you be willing to pay for Apple products if they were willing to return manufacturing to the U.S.? My view is that we live in a culture where people seek products at the lowest possible prices. People buy online from vendors who charge $5 less on $1000 products. People shop in WalMart or online to save a few bucks over keeping local businesses on Main Street viable. I don't think the American people are willing to pay more to keep manufacturing in the U.S. I don't even think they were willing to do this before the current poor economy.
post #73 of 115
Instead of thinking in terms of closing down Foxconn and moving all Apple manufacture from China to the U.S., how about baby steps?

1) A new, yet to be announced (or even thought about) product line. Start planning from the ground up for being completely made in the USA. If labor and other costs increase the MSRP too much, then subsidize it a little from the profits made on other Apple lines. For the good of the country.

2) Move a smaller less technical current product such as the iPod Shuffle back here.

Use either of the above as a proof-of-concept. An investment in Americas. Over time, costs may even out as China's wages and cost of living begin to rise. Hell, as an Apple stockholder I don't get any dividends anyway.
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post #74 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

First: I have never been called a bleeding heart liberal!

I've been told by various reliable sources that I am one, and I wear it proudly. It's why I do the work that I do.

Quote:
Third: I believe that I have an obligation to share some of the successes I have had -- and help others in the ways I can.

Spoken like a true bleeding heart liberal!

Quote:
The OLPC project was one of good intentions -- but soon became moribund with politics, egos, special interests.

I concur.

Quote:
I do not pretend to have the answers!

I don't have any quick/easy answers either. Sigh. \

Quote:
What I would like to see is a foundation to bring the benefits of technology * to the poor. IMO, that means take a hot product, in demand, and find a way for the underprivileged to exploit that demand to gain dignity and self-sufficiency.

* to some the benefits of technology might be a meal, a vaccine -- to others it may be a job, an education, an opportunity to improve their life.

Computers and internet are definitely cool and useful in many contextsparticularly in most Western contexts. I use my computers to handle photos, videos and administrative tasks related to the work that I do, but that's really less than half of my work. Most involves working directly with the local people, in their context and environment. In fact, most of my "work" involves hanging out and chatting and gossiping with the rural people. That is the best way to find out what their needs are, and how to best meet those needs.

Quote:
I agree that there will always be others that divert the benefits to their own ends.

The December 2004 tsunami brought the best and worst out of peopleboth of which I witnessed first hand.

Quote:
However, that doesn't mean you don't try.

Exactly. I think it's important for everyone to do what they can. As you suggested earlier: I strongly feel that those who have, have some responsibility to those who have not.
Quote:
I say that the abilities that can produce an iPad at a cost of $260, can be channeled to address the issues of the underprivileged.

For example, hire some of them and ask them what needs to be done, and how -- to improve their lot. Let them, with some guidance, design the solutions -- with the opportunity to fail, and learn from their failure. Then go back again and try until they succeed.

Then take that failure/success experience and make it into a deliverable that can be tailored and massively and efficiently deployed.

I believe that, done properly, technology can help the underprivileged -- maybe introducing manufacturing and jobs where there were none is a good first step! But that is not enough, there must be a second, third step... potential for growth and self-realization.

I certainly understand and affirm the sentiment expressed. I'm just not convinced that an iPad is the answer. I think there are many, many things that need to happen in most poor/rural communities before high technology is introduced.

Quote:
You help the poor by working with them -- not becoming one of them!

Right on!
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post #75 of 115
How is it that Intel makes their chips in the US and in other countries. It works for them, why not Apple and others?
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post #76 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

I don't know the economics of this, but wouldn't it be nice if Apple actually manufactured it's products in California and a few other states? I am sure Californians could use it these days. And why not Kentucky? I would love to track my new MacBook Pro on it's journey from Hemit, California to Ontario International Airport and then to Montreal.

As I said, I don't know the economics of it, but I certainly could imagine the GREAT PR it would get if Apple said tomorrow 'we are moving all our manufacturing jobs to the US' ! It would make a huge statement to the rest of the big businesses who are sitting on top of huge cash surpluses while millions of Americans are out of work. That kind of good PR would have to generate income down the road.

where in the United States are you going to find people working for the US equivalent of the Chinese wage? The cost of living (especially in CA) is so high that you simply cannot afford to live here on minimum wage (and factory workers in China get far less than even the cheapest labor in the US). Minimum wage in CA in $8.00/hr.. Chinese will work 2 DAYS for that.
post #77 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanner View Post

It may or may not be good PR for Apple to produce products in the US. More than half of their products are sold outside the US. The non US markets are Apple's fastest growing. The United States is no longer the center of the universe.

I am not implying that the US is the center of the universe. It is an American company though. I don't think making their products in their home country would upset anyone other than China.

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post #78 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

While I agree that it would be great to produce Apple product in the U.S., as they originally did (in California), there's no way that could happen without a substantial increase in retail prices...probably double. Chinese workers are currently working for the equivalent of $135 a month. Even U.S. minimum wage would cost a lot more money. Furthermore, Chinese manufacturing works on very short margins. (And this is why I think pushing the Chinese to increase the value of their currency is a joke. Even if their currency doubled in value, it still wouldn't return any manufacturing to the U.S.)

So the question becomes how much extra would you be willing to pay for Apple products if they were willing to return manufacturing to the U.S.? My view is that we live in a culture where people seek products at the lowest possible prices. People buy online from vendors who charge $5 less on $1000 products. People shop in WalMart or online to save a few bucks over keeping local businesses on Main Street viable. I don't think the American people are willing to pay more to keep manufacturing in the U.S. I don't even think they were willing to do this before the current poor economy.

Well if this trend continues, there will be a lot of people in the US that can't buy those great products. Catch 22

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post #79 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Instead of thinking in terms of closing down Foxconn and moving all Apple manufacture from China to the U.S., how about baby steps?

1) A new, yet to be announced (or even thought about) product line. Start planning from the ground up for being completely made in the USA. If labor and other costs increase the MSRP too much, then subsidize it a little from the profits made on other Apple lines. For the good of the country.

2) Move a smaller less technical current product such as the iPod Shuffle back here.

Use either of the above as a proof-of-concept. An investment in Americas. Over time, costs may even out as China's wages and cost of living begin to rise. Hell, as an Apple stockholder I don't get any dividends anyway.

Now that is a reasonable compromise.

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post #80 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

So the question becomes how much extra would you be willing to pay for Apple products if they were willing to return manufacturing to the U.S.?

Apple can't just give money away, because it belongs to the shareholders so manufacturing in the US is not a viable option if all of their competitors are still using China. The only thing they could do is make the highest end products in the US and charge a fortune for them.

Fender Guitar used to make cheap reproductions of their products in their Mexico factory and sell them for a fraction of the cost of a similar US made guitar. They both played and sounded fine but the pros always spent the extra cash for the original while the amateurs bought the cheap copies. It still said Fender on it along with Made in Mexico.

If Apple did that, the wealthiest people in the world would finance bringing the jobs back to the US. Want a 200 gig iPhone with SD card slot, $2500.

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