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Apple, RIM rivalry heating up over apps, business

post #1 of 84
Thread Starter 
Comments by Research in Motion's co-CEO disparaging Apple's app strategy at this week's Web 2.0 Summit reflect a growing rivalry between Apple and RIM, while reports of early commitments to the BlackBerry PlayBook tablet from corporations hint at the fierce competition to come over the corporate tablet market.

Though tension between Apple and RIM has been growing for some time, RIM took it to the next level earlier this week when it released a hands-on video comparing the upcoming BlackBerry PlayBook tablet with Apple's iPad. In the video, the PlayBook is shown to render websites faster, run Flash, and perform better on Web standards tests. The PlayBook is set to debut in early 2011, priced at "under" $500 to compete with the iPad.

RIM co-CEO Jim Balsillie then proceeded to add fuel to the fire by laying into Apple during this week's Web 2.0 conference. When asked what he would say if Apple CEO Steve Jobs were on stage, he replied with, "You finally showed up." Critical of the abundance of iOS apps that duplicate Web content, Balsillie claimed that "you don't need an app for the Web." That claim, however, is misleading, since, presumably, the PlayBook will itself require a Web browser application to take advantage of 'the web without limits' as advertised.

Balsillie and Jobs traded words last month after Jobs announced that the iPhone had outsold all BlackBerry phones in the September quarter. "I don't see them catching up with us in the foreseeable future," said Jobs during the company's earnings call.

Jobs also expressed skepticism over the smaller 7-inch form factor of competing tablets, which includes the BlackBerry PlayBook. "We think the 7-inch tablets will be dead on arrival, and manufacturers will realize they're too small and abandon them next year. They'll then increase the size, abandoning the customers and developers who bought into the smaller format," he predicted.

Balsillie quickly fired back, asserting that Jobs' comments were irrelevant to people "who live outside of Apple's distortion field." "We think many customers are getting tired of being told what to think by Apple," wrote Balsillie on the official BlackBerry blog.

As Apple continues to make inroads into the enterprise market, the threat it poses to BlackBerry increases. Hoping to convince some of the business tablet users who went with the iPad and iPhone to switch back to the BlackBerry platform, RIM is pushing the PlayBook as a business device.

Bloomberg reports that RIM has achieved some early success with attracting corporate customers to the PlayBook. The Sun Life Financial insurance group has agreed to purchase as many as 1,000 PlayBook tablets, while several other companies have also committed to testing or purchasing the device. The encryption was really the clincher in opting for the PlayBook, said Sun Life senior vice president Tom Reid.

Meanwhile, Apple will be ramping up its efforts to market the iPad to businesses."We haven't pushed [the iPad] real hard in business, and it's being grabbed out of our hands," Jobs said in October. According to Apple, over 65 percent of the Fortune 100 are already deploying or trying the iPad.

"We've got a tiger by the tail here, and this is a new model of computing which we've already got tens of millions of people trained on with the iPhone, and that lends itself to lots of different aspects of life, both personal and business," he said.
post #2 of 84
RIM is dead. Playbook is garbage. Blackberry phones are garbage. The iphone and android devices wipe the floor with the crap RIM devices.
post #3 of 84
Bogus article!
RIM is getting jacked up by Apple. There is no way in hell RIM is going to outdo the effing iPad. That crap we've been seeing is some off the shelf sh** RIM threw together in a last ditch effort to keep their stockholder sedated. Apple's DNA is software and hardware and thier forte is fusing the two together and making MAGIC!!
RIM ain't got that prowess.
And when the iPad 2 drops all hell will break loose in this mother******!!
post #4 of 84
Something that RIM far exceeds Apple in is easily enterprise encryption. I am sure many top companies or government contractors value that. However if Apple can match that level, provided they care to, then RIM is muerto.
post #5 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

Bogus article!
RIM is getting jacked up by Apple. There is no way in hell RIM is going to outdo the effing iPad. That crap we've been seeing is some off the shelf sh** RIM threw together in a last ditch effort to keep their stockholder sedated. Apple's DNA is software and hardware and thier forte is fusing the two together and making MAGIC!!
RIM ain't got that prowess.
And when the iPad 2 drops all hell will break loose in this mother******!!

A- RIM will not fail, as ghostface, pointed out below, encryption is something apple does not deal with much, and is important to many orginizations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Something that RIM far exceeds Apple in is easily enterprise encryption. I am sure many top companies or government contractors value that. However if Apple can match that level, provided they care to, then RIM is muerto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

RIM is dead. Playbook is garbage. Blackberry phones are garbage. The iphone and android devices wipe the floor with the crap RIM devices.

B- RIM is not dead (currently is dying however), don't judge a product before it arrives.

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i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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post #6 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"We think many customers are getting tired of being told what to think by Apple," wrote Balsillie on the official BlackBerry blog.

Yet we should be told how to think, work and interact with technology products by a bunch of "Microsoft-wannabes" who have no idea how to develop a really innovative hardware/software product development strategy, or to design products that look good and are simple to use?

And Balsillie's rejection of the value of apps is just dumb, because the power and versatility of devices like the iPad can only be expressed by apps that are not just simple web browsers that run Adobe Flash. If he doesn't understand this by now, his Board should get rid of him pronto before RIM joins the 'wannabes' who can only watch as their customer bases desert them in droves for Apple products.
post #7 of 84
"You finally showed up."

That's rich.

How long did it take to get blackberry synching software for the Mac from RIM again?
About two years after nobody cared any more?
post #8 of 84
Quote:
Balsillie claimed that "you don't need an app for the Web."

What?!! remember when SJ said developers can create web apps for the original iPhone? I remember and I remember the outcry. Apple didn't force anyone to create apps. Developers are free to either use the web apps or native apps.
post #9 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

RIM is not dead (currently is[sic] dying however), don't judge a product before it arrives.

They arent dying either. They arent growing as growing as fast as Apple or the smartphone market, but they are still growing and are still a well managed company.
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post #10 of 84
They are floating around Sun Life Insurance as an early subscriber? Too predictable, being a Canadian company. Who else will patronize RIM if Canadians will not?
post #11 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Comments by Research in Motion's co-CEO disparaging Apple's app strategy .

When RIM has served billions and billions of Apps like Apple, THEN they can disparage Apple's App Strategy.
post #12 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

What?!! remember when SJ said developers can create web apps for the original iPhone? I remember and I remember the outcry. Apple didn't force anyone to create apps. Developers are free to either use the web apps or native apps.

Yeah, without native apps, the Playbook is dead as an enterprise device, and that's really the only potential market it had.
post #13 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

B- RIM is not dead (currently is dying however), don't judge a product before it arrives.

This is not directed towards you but more so to just make a comment. Don't compare it either!
post #14 of 84
How about producing a product anybody can buy or even touch before denigrating the competition. I do not believe Mr. Jobs should have made the statement about the other form factors because it actually gives them credence by making Apple look defensive, but Apple does actually have a shipping product that is selling millions of units a month. The reason for that. The apps.

Brian
post #15 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

A- RIM will not fail, as ghostface, pointed out below, encryption is something apple does not deal with much, and is important to many orginizations

I didn't mean die as in out of existance. I meant as in they will have to accept a more diminshed role in market share. More than webOS or Windows Phone 7/mobile of course, but not as much as they are now. I think they lose at least 10-14% if Apple takes encryption seriously, but maybe 6% if they don't. Who knows. I'm not quite sober.
post #16 of 84
RIM's circling the bowl, folks. They've got nothing to compete with Apple or even Android.

Apps are key. RIM has no apps worth discussing. So Jim Ballsilie figures he can pretend apps aren't important and actually get away with it.

post #17 of 84
I'm not sure what all of you do for a living, but in my office of attorneys, all sole practitioners, 1/2 still have opted for a blackberry. There are 3 of them, 2 iphones, one android, and one flip phone.

So, I really don't think they're circling the bowl just yet. And if any of the speed claims of that video turn out to be true, there will be many people who will line up for a 7" tablet.

Also, in the business world there are a lot of people who just hate Apple.
post #18 of 84
It's funny how just a few years ago everyone I knew referred to RIM as having a distortion field. They were the furthest behind in every way in the technology of their BlackBerry's and business people would line up to buy their outdated crap. It took 2 weeks minimum to get a new model, but it was worth it because it was a BlackBerry. Now when someone else releases something that's actually new and revolutionary, they are just jealous that they have lost their magic.
post #19 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimguy View Post

I'm not sure what all of you do for a living, but in my office of attorneys, all sole practitioners, 1/2 still have opted for a blackberry. There are 3 of them, 2 iphones, one android, and one flip phone.

So, I really don't think they're circling the bowl just yet. And if any of the speed claims of that video turn out to be true, there will be many people who will line up for a 7" tablet.

Also, in the business world there are a lot of people who just hate Apple.

Eh, maybe. Not at Stanford Hospital though. My doctor and his intern both had iPads and they were taking notes and issuing orders. The doctor told me they are set up with an intranet and can access client's files, film, lab results etc. My whole case could be seen with the iPad.

He said it was a whole lot easier than having to sit down at a workstation. Pretty nifty, eh?
post #20 of 84
Don't know if this has been posted here yet. Thought I'd share. Saw it over at Daring Fireball which linked to laughingsquid.com. Pretty spot on, I'd say...

post #21 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

"You finally showed up."

That's rich.

How long did it take to get blackberry synching software for the Mac from RIM again?
About two years after nobody cared any more?

He said:"you finally showed up" as Rim is leaving the party.
post #22 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimguy View Post

I'm not sure what all of you do for a living, but in my office of attorneys, all sole practitioners, 1/2 still have opted for a blackberry. There are 3 of them, 2 iphones, one android, and one flip phone.

So, I really don't think they're circling the bowl just yet. And if any of the speed claims of that video turn out to be true, there will be many people who will line up for a 7" tablet.

Also, in the business world there are a lot of people who just hate Apple.

I can't remember the last time I attended a business meeting where there was not at least one iPad.
post #23 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post

Eh, maybe. Not at Stanford Hospital though. My doctor and his intern both had iPads and they were taking notes and issuing orders. The doctor told me they are set up with an intranet and can access client's files, film, lab results etc. My whole case could be seen with the iPad.

He said it was a whole lot easier than having to sit down at a workstation. Pretty nifty, eh?

I would like to add to this if I may. The company I work for is solely Blackberry. I have one. The company gave it to me, and it's free so I have a hard time going out and getting my own iPhone at $100 plus per month even though I would really love one. Our phones and computers are all controlled by an IT person who does not like apple. He's a control freak. He even has it to the point of what we can do with our computers at work. So we, a company of 300+ will never see the iPhone just because of him.

I also think he was unpopular in high school and now he's found a way to force people to talk to him.

He's also in charge of security by the way. Who has what key and because he's bring the doors up to date, who's door card can access what part of the building.

So as long as there are people like this out there, RIM doesn't have to provide a better user experience. They just have to supply a product. The more complicated it is on the implementation side of it, the more they will sell...

Just my very, very humble opinion.
post #24 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimguy View Post

I'm not sure what all of you do for a living, but in my office of attorneys, all sole practitioners, 1/2 still have opted for a blackberry. There are 3 of them, 2 iphones, one android, and one flip phone.

So, I really don't think they're circling the bowl just yet. And if any of the speed claims of that video turn out to be true, there will be many people who will line up for a 7" tablet.

Also, in the business world there are a lot of people who just hate Apple.

I totally know what you mean. My office was half BlackBerry last year. Only two years ago we only had two iPhones in the whole organization. This year, we are getting ready to shut down our BES (BlackBerry Enterprise Server) because everyone whose contract came up for renewal chose an iPhone. Just wait. It will happen. And many of us geeks, myself included, are changing our tune about Apple. Only the most closed minded hate Apple anymore. Even the one guy at my business who is constantly bashing Apple has an iPod he uses more than any other device he owns and he chose and paid for it with his own money. I even heard him mention the other day that his next phone would be an iPhone because he's tired of borrowing his daughter's iPhone when they are out to find a place to eat and all the other things apps do for you so easily.
post #25 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They arent dying either. They arent growing as growing as fast as Apple or the smartphone market, but they are still growing and are still a well managed company.

unlike Apple, they don't have huge margins, nor do they have the rate of growth of Android.

not debating that they are well managed, but there recent "breakthrough" products like the "torch" have been a slump (i will make no personal comment, having never used one).

their marketshare is being eroded.

RIM is dying slowly, very slowly, if Apple and Android keep growing, i could see RIM forced into an Apple like state (like early 2000's).

having a company being forced into that state COULD not saying it will, spark another supreme innovation, like Apple and the Ipod.

that being said, i am not an analyst. Yet, my point that they are slowly losing revenue (to my knowledge, please correct me if i am wrong), marketshare and have an OS that is generally considered (no personal use, therefor i will not make a personal statement) to be worse than Android and iOS

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #26 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

unlike Apple, they don't have huge margins, nor do they have the rate of growth of Android.

They used to have profit margins that exceed Apples. The iPhone put a damper on that, but they still make profit margins that exceed the industry.
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post #27 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They used to have profit margins that exceed Apples. The iPhone put a damper on that, but they still make profit margins that exceed the industry.

Yup, we are talking about Nokia with something like a 12% profit margin --- RIM's profit margin is huge (only second to apple and much higher than Motorola/HTC with their androids).
post #28 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They used to have profit margins that exceed Apples. The iPhone put a damper on that, but they still make profit margins that exceed the industry.

It's a huge market ... Plenty of room for everybody
post #29 of 84
The most important part is that enterprise customers received their playbook for testing yesterday (that's why we are seeing third party hands-on video on youtube).
post #30 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

unlike Apple, they don't have huge margins, nor do they have the rate of growth of Android.

not debating that they are well managed, but there recent "breakthrough" products like the "torch" have been a slump (i will make no personal comment, having never used one).

their marketshare is being eroded.

RIM is dying slowly, very slowly, if Apple and Android keep growing, i could see RIM forced into an Apple like state (like early 2000's).

having a company being forced into that state COULD not saying it will, spark another supreme innovation, like Apple and the Ipod.

that being said, i am not an analyst. Yet, my point that they are slowly losing revenue (to my knowledge, please correct me if i am wrong), marketshare and have an OS that is generally considered (no personal use, therefor i will not make a personal statement) to be worse than Android and iOS

]

As others have said, they have good margins. Last quarter they sold almost 12 million handsets, which is a record for them, and some analysts have said they will outsell Apple next quarter, because Apple always has a great 3rd quarter with the release of the new iPhone model.

OTOH, if you read the "analysts" everyone is dead except Android, with Apple eventually a distant second.
post #31 of 84
Here is a little video of PlayBook that isnt an ad from RiM. It seems responsive and fluid in this short demo. This is a good thing. OF course, that is only one small aspect one would need to measure if they are interested in buying. Still, so far so good for RiM and Im very glad theyve realized the limitations of their BB OS moving forward.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pla...ion,11658.html
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post #32 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Here is a little video of PlayBook that isnt an ad from RiM. It seems responsive and fluid in this short demo. This is a good thing. OF course, that is only one small aspect one would need to measure if they are interested in buying. Still, so far so good for RiM and Im very glad theyve realized the limitations of their BB OS moving forward.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pla...ion,11658.html

Wise words. It will be interesting to see how they adapt QNX to their mobile phones. It should be interesting, especially if they do it quickly.
post #33 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

...Balsillie claimed that "you don't need an app for the Web." That claim, however, is misleading, since, presumably, the PlayBook will itself require a Web browser application to take advantage of 'the web without limits' as advertised.

It's not misleading at all. No device can access the web without a browser, so for the purposes of his discussion the browser is "the web." He is rightly criticizing the plethora of apps which provide little more than a bunch of information which is already available on the web via a browser.

We get that you have to criticise RIM in every article, but try and keep the complaints real.
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post #34 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by macnyc View Post

I can't remember the last time I attended a business meeting where there was not at least one iPad.

Probably one of the ones held before it was released would be a good bet.
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post #35 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

It's not misleading at all. No device can access the web without a browser, so for the purposes of his discussion the browser is "the web." He is rightly criticizing the plethora of apps which provide little more than a bunch of information which is already available on the web via a browser.

We get that you have to criticise RIM in every article, but try and keep the complaints real.


It is interesting that you mentioned this. Wired had an article awhile back about the death of the web, which was ridiculed here.

However, Apple and RIM have two different visions.

With Apple's app approach, the web is dead (not the internet, but the web). The idea of the web is one of a set of interconnected sites, where you can jump from one site to another. So you go the NYT site, and then jump somewhere else.

However, with apps, this is not really the case. You open an app to go to a site for a specific set of information. Or you open the youtube app. With the app approach, things are more discrete and disconnected. So, with this approach, you need lots of apps to do "discrete" events, and you need lots of developers.

For RIM, the idea is fewer apps, and use the web and the browser to do things. Hence, you do not need as large an app store or as many developers.

We shall see what happens.
post #36 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by macnyc View Post

I can't remember the last time I attended a business meeting where there was not at least one iPad.

Anecdotally, I can't recall being in a business meeting where there was an iPad.
post #37 of 84
LOL. Seriously.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #38 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Here is a little video of PlayBook that isnt an ad from RiM. It seems responsive and fluid in this short demo. This is a good thing. OF course, that is only one small aspect one would need to measure if they are interested in buying. Still, so far so good for RiM and Im very glad theyve realized the limitations of their BB OS moving forward.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pla...ion,11658.html

Actually, if you watch closely, it isn't very responsive or fluid -- except in special cases.

-- a single tap (touch and immediately lift) is responsive - the start of the gesture is quickly followed by the end of the gesture. The OS recognizes this and quickly opens/closes the app.

-- a flick or swipe gesture (several examples at about 33 seconds in) is not fluid or responsive - the start of the gesture is followed by a slight delay (the gesture, itself) then the end of gesture. The OS does not recognize the gesture until the gesture has ended. Then the screen changes to reflect the gesture. It is a "wait, then catch up" effect and it is unsettling because you don't immediately know if the gesture is recognized. You can see this at about 1:06 and 1:07 where he repeats the flick gesture

We're looking at the OS and the GUI at the "system level", here -- not some poorly-coded app.

By contrast, take the iPad home screen and flick or drag it to the left or right -- the screen content moves along with, and in synchronization with, the gesture as you expect it to. You can even wiggle your finger back and forth and the screen content wiggles too --- as expected.

The iPad tracks 11 separate, concurrent touch events -- games, musical instruments, collaboration, etc.

I have not seen any information on how many events the PlayBook can track -- based on what I've seen so far, it has difficulty tracking a single event.

.
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post #39 of 84
I think I would like to install Kik on a Blackberry so I can message iPhone and Android friends outside BB messenger.

I'm glad Blackberry won't tell me how to think



Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Balsillie quickly fired back, asserting that Jobs' comments were irrelevant to people "who live outside of Apple's distortion field." "We think many customers are getting tired of being told what to think by Apple," wrote Balsillie on the official BlackBerry blog.
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post #40 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider

...Balsillie claimed that "you don't need an app for the Web." That claim, however, is misleading, since, presumably, the PlayBook will itself require a Web browser application to take advantage of 'the web without limits' as advertised.


Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

It's not misleading at all. No device can access the web without a browser, so for the purposes of his discussion the browser is "the web." He is rightly criticizing the plethora of apps which provide little more than a bunch of information which is already available on the web via a browser.

We get that you have to criticise RIM in every article, but try and keep the complaints real.


Balsillie claimed that "you don't need an app for the Web."

You say: It's not misleading at all. No device can access the web without a browser, so for the purposes of his discussion the browser is "the web."


Neither one of you know what you are talking about.


You ever hear of web services? You ever hear of screen scraping/harvesting? You ever hear of AOL? You ever hear of a web search? You ever hear of an RSS reader? NetFlix?...

None of those things require a browser.

You ever hear of an aggregator app?

Isn't it amazing that the device's Maps app can find your location, then locate all the Starbucks nearby, without you or it needing to:

-- leave the app
-- open a browser
-- search for nearby Starbucks
-- meticulously copy the info phone, geoLocation, coordinates, address, etc. of each Starbucks.
-- return to the maps app
-- individually search and flag each location based on the info copied from the web search
-- then select the one you want
-- copy the phone number
-- leave the maps app
-- open the phone app
-- paste the phone number
-- call the number

Ain't no browser involved in none o' that -- just an intelligent app that knows how to access information from the web.

Sheesh.

.
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