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Apple, RIM rivalry heating up over apps, business - Page 2

post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Something that RIM far exceeds Apple in is easily enterprise encryption. I am sure many top companies or government contractors value that. However if Apple can match that level, provided they care to, then RIM is muerto.

BS. iPhones support several enterprise encryption methods since the 3GS. What are you specifically talking about? The Super expensive, proprietary, RIM BES server which routes all your confidential email through RIMs central servers where governments and other eavesdroppers can intercept it?
post #42 of 84
if RIM wants to survive, they need to tighten their strangle hold on enterprise... they've already lost in the consumer space. my company issues Blackberries to management, but all of the ones i am close to say if they had the choice, they would use an iPhone.

as for 7" tablets, Jobs was so right. At 7" you may as well be using a smartphone or iPod touch... it's netbooks all over again. They started out with 7" screens, but eventually all migrated to 11".

7" is good for e-readers, but not tablets.
post #43 of 84
I think that as long as Apple refuse to entertain the thought of a phone with no physical keyboard (which appears to be forever) RIM will have lots of users. Their mail is miles ahead of Apple and every other. When you get 100+ mails a day a nice "mail opening" animation gets tired really quickly, you just want to see the information and reply to it.

There are loads of people I know changing handsets because of that. I did. I go out for an early XMAS drink with the same 10 lads every year, three years ago I was the only one with an iphone, two years ago it was 5/10, last year 4/10, and this year only 1/10. Five people had either a Bold 9000 (including me) or a 9700. One guy had a Nokia n900 and one a Nokia e72. The other two had HTC Desires.

Some people just don't like tapping away at unresponsive glass, not for long mails or replies. It's just far slower.
post #44 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

I think that as long as Apple refuse to entertain the thought of a phone with no physical keyboard (which appears to be forever) RIM will have lots of users. Their mail is miles ahead of Apple and every other. When you get 100+ mails a day a nice "mail opening" animation gets tired really quickly, you just want to see the information and reply to it.

There are loads of people I know changing handsets because of that. I did. I go out for an early XMAS drink with the same 10 lads every year, three years ago I was the only one with an iphone, two years ago it was 5/10, last year 4/10, and this year only 1/10. Five people had either a Bold 9000 (including me) or a 9700. One guy had a Nokia n900 and one a Nokia e72. The other two had HTC Desires.

Some people just don't like tapping away at unresponsive glass, not for long mails or replies. It's just far slower.

Thats nice, but I think Apple is selling more iPhones than Blackberry is selling their own smart phones.
post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

Some people just don't like tapping away at unresponsive glass, not for long mails or replies. It's just far slower.

I don't understand how it could possibly be slower... I find it very difficult to type on a blackberry. the keys are too small and too close together. maybe it's just my fat thumbs.

But really, i think it's just what you are used to.
post #46 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by zindako View Post

Thats nice, but I think Apple is selling more iPhones than Blackberry is selling their own smart phones.

I'm not saying that it's hurting Apples sales, just pointing out that many users prefer a real KB over the virtual one, so no matter how secure Apple make it, many will still choose a RIM product.

As for speed, I had an iPhone for two years, I was pretty used to it, but I would say I am least twice as fast with a BB. Turn off the error correction (which does my head in as I want to use words that Apple haven't gotten in the dictionary) and it's also highly inaccurate. I wouldn't say I'm alone in that statement, except on here of course. I mean in the real world.
post #47 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieWallieWhiskers View Post

I don't understand how it could possibly be slower... I find it very difficult to type on a blackberry. the keys are too small and too close together. maybe it's just my fat thumbs.

But really, i think it's just what you are used to.

How can the keys be too small and too close together when the iphone is smaller in all dimensions, hence its portrait KB is small and closer together?

If you read the article you will see I use a BB Bold 9000 for that very reason, (although the 9700 is still much bigger than the iphone qwerty) no one could accuse that KB of bring too small.
post #48 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

Turn off the error correction (which does my head in as I want to use words that Apple haven't gotten in the dictionary)

There's a reason LOL, OMG, u, 2nite, et. al. aren't in the dictionary.

Quote:
and it's also highly inaccurate.

No, but I've only been using it for three years, so I wouldn't know.

Quote:
I wouldn't say I'm alone in that statement, except on here of course. I mean in the real world.

So don't say it at all if you're going to completely ignore a valid demographic.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #49 of 84
[QUOTE=Tallest Skil;1754757]There's a reason LOL, OMG, u, 2nite, et. al. aren't in the dictionary.



The likelihood of someone using those terms on a BB versus an iphone are pretty slender mate, much more likely on an iphone so I don't see the point. I'm nearly 40 and an English teacher, I don't use them out of principal.

Which valid demographic? The tech press who all acknowledge the BB keyboard to be the best keyboard available on ANY mobile device or the myopic pro-Apple brigade on here?

Who's ignoring the facts?
post #50 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimguy View Post

I'm not sure what all of you do for a living, but in my office of attorneys, all sole practitioners, 1/2 still have opted for a blackberry. There are 3 of them, 2 iphones, one android, and one flip phone.

So, I really don't think they're circling the bowl just yet. And if any of the speed claims of that video turn out to be true, there will be many people who will line up for a 7" tablet.

Also, in the business world there are a lot of people who just hate Apple.

Spoken like a true clueless attorney. In the business world there are a lot of people who just hate attorneys.
post #51 of 84
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post #52 of 84
Has anyone confirmed that the PlayBook shown in the video has anything else running on it? For example, the OS?
post #53 of 84
[QUOTE=Scaramanga89;. I'm nearly 40 and an English teacher, I don't use them out of principal.[/QUOTE]

As a teacher of English, don't you think that correct spelling would be, in principle, quite important?

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post #54 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by NextTechnocrati View Post

They are floating around Sun Life Insurance as an early subscriber? Too predictable, being a Canadian company. Who else will patronize RIM if Canadians will not?

More than just a Canadian company, their Canadian HQ in Waterloo is about 5 minutes from RIM HQ.

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post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Spoken like a true clueless attorney. In the business world there are a lot of people who just hate attorneys.

Really, grossly unfair. Lawyers were one of the first groups to really embrace smart phones and they happen to embrace BB more than others. It is telling that Apple is making major inroads into this established BB market. And his comment about some business people hating Apple isn't off the mark. There has been historical resistance to Apple in the corporate world forever, it's a simple fact. Recognizing it doesn't make him clueless.

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post #56 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Here is a little video of PlayBook that isnt an ad from RiM. It seems responsive and fluid in this short demo. This is a good thing. OF course, that is only one small aspect one would need to measure if they are interested in buying. Still, so far so good for RiM and Im very glad theyve realized the limitations of their BB OS moving forward.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pla...ion,11658.html

Have they released the SDK yet. That will decide how much time developers get to create apps if, RIM is is really interested in that (but from comments it doesn't seem to be the case).
post #57 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by samban View Post

Have they released the SDK yet. That will decide how much time developers get to create apps if, RIM is is really interested in that (but from comments it doesn't seem to be the case).

I havent read about a specific SDK for the PlayBook, but the UI is Adobe AIR, so wouldnt that mean they already have a decent sized developer body built-in?
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post #58 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

It is interesting that you mentioned this. Wired had an article awhile back about the death of the web, which was ridiculed here.

However, Apple and RIM have two different visions.

With Apple's app approach, the web is dead (not the internet, but the web). The idea of the web is one of a set of interconnected sites, where you can jump from one site to another. So you go the NYT site, and then jump somewhere else.

However, with apps, this is not really the case. You open an app to go to a site for a specific set of information. Or you open the youtube app. With the app approach, things are more discrete and disconnected. So, with this approach, you need lots of apps to do "discrete" events, and you need lots of developers.

For RIM, the idea is fewer apps, and use the web and the browser to do things. Hence, you do not need as large an app store or as many developers.

We shall see what happens.

Using this approach Linux should have been the main desktop OS & not Windows.

It's all about the primary App.

Apple --> ipod app
Windows --> Office
Andriod --> Maps
RIM --> Mail/ BB messenger (The problem is it uses Windows Exchange for mail and MSFT doesn't like this)
post #59 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Something that RIM far exceeds Apple in is easily enterprise encryption. I am sure many top companies or government contractors value that. However if Apple can match that level, provided they care to, then RIM is muerto.

I wonder if Canadian laws regarding exporting encryption significantly differs from the US...I've always wondered why neither Apple nor MS has really stepped up to the plate to kill RIM's one trick pony advantage.

It's not a technical constraint...both companies are well able to build the same kind of encryption infrastructure as RIM.
post #60 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I havent read about a specific SDK for the PlayBook, but the UI is Adobe AIR, so wouldnt that mean they already have a decent sized developer body built-in?

Yes. There should be a reasonable number of AIR devs already. Mmmm...good luck with that.
post #61 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by samban View Post

Using this approach Linux should have been the main desktop OS & not Windows.

It's all about the primary App.

Apple --> ipod app
Windows --> Office
Andriod --> Maps
RIM --> Mail/ BB messenger (The problem is it uses Windows Exchange for mail and MSFT doesn't like this)

You missed the point, as it has nothing to do with the desktop OS.

It is about one's conception of going online - is the online experience a Web of interconnected sites accessed via the browser or is the online experience a set of discrete events accessed by different apps.
post #62 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Actually, if you watch closely, it isn't very responsive or fluid -- except in special cases.

Again the demo was running a HD video in the background and he was using his thumb to do the swipe --- not the best digit to do the job.
post #63 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

I'm not saying that it's hurting Apples sales, just pointing out that many users prefer a real KB over the virtual one, so no matter how secure Apple make it, many will still choose a RIM product.

As for speed, I had an iPhone for two years, I was pretty used to it, but I would say I am least twice as fast with a BB. Turn off the error correction (which does my head in as I want to use words that Apple haven't gotten in the dictionary) and it's also highly inaccurate. I wouldn't say I'm alone in that statement, except on here of course. I mean in the real world.

Unfortunately Playbook doesn't have physical keyboard.
post #64 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by samban View Post

Unfortunately Playbook doesn't have physical keyboard.

The Foleo'esque feature would mean that you can use the blackberry's physical keyboard.
post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

You missed the point, as it has nothing to do with the desktop OS.

It is about one's conception of going online - is the online experience a Web of interconnected sites accessed via the browser or is the online experience a set of discrete events accessed by different apps.

Apps are designed based on needs, imagine multitasking web apps for switching from tab to other which essentially is what is currently being done in a more intuitive way .

My point I don't see any difference in usage other than the approach to access the app.

Secondly, you always need to be connected to access the web app (I don't know about offline using, but then if it caches up for offline usage how is it different from the app model used by various OS'es).
post #66 of 84
RIM does understand that the iPad is version one, right? Apple will likely upgrade the iPad come January. So comparing RIM's upcoming product to an Apple product that is at the end of it's life cycle isn't much of a comparison. Apple will undoubtedly increase the processor speed, memory size, and improve the hardware by adding features like a camera. Further, 4.2 will be out before the end of the year.
post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

RIM does understand that the iPad is version one, right? Apple will likely upgrade the iPad come January. So comparing RIM's upcoming product to an Apple product that is at the end of it's life cycle isn't much of a comparison. Apple will undoubtedly increase the processor speed, memory size, and improve the hardware by adding features like a camera. Further, 4.2 will be out before the end of the year.

The problem is that even with ipad2 --- there is still no flash available AND Apple has always been the LAST to update their browser with new webkit core.
post #68 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

It is interesting that you mentioned this. Wired had an article awhile back about the death of the web, which was ridiculed here.

However, Apple and RIM have two different visions.

With Apple's app approach, the web is dead (not the internet, but the web). The idea of the web is one of a set of interconnected sites, where you can jump from one site to another. So you go the NYT site, and then jump somewhere else.

However, with apps, this is not really the case. You open an app to go to a site for a specific set of information. Or you open the youtube app. With the app approach, things are more discrete and disconnected. So, with this approach, you need lots of apps to do "discrete" events, and you need lots of developers.

For RIM, the idea is fewer apps, and use the web and the browser to do things. Hence, you do not need as large an app store or as many developers.

We shall see what happens.

The wired article was rightly ridiculed since the data it was based on was completely misinterpreted.

What you've done here is completely misrepresent Apple's position on iOS and web development. Apple constantly stresses that there are 2 development platforms for iOS -- CocoaTouch and HTML5. They've also actively discouraged apps that are nothing more than wrappers for web content. However, a) web apps don't, and never will, perform as well as native apps for some applications, b) native apps provide functionality even when offline (for whatever reason), c) developers can more easily monetize their efforts with native apps, and d) consumers strongly favor native apps over web apps. So, despite the first iPhone being web apps only (other than the built-in apps), and Apple's promotion of HTML5 for web apps, native apps are still what people want on their phones (and tablets, notebooks and desktops, I might add). The web is great for information, but for complex functionality, native apps will always rule.

RIM's "vision" is that they don't have any developer base for writing native apps and aren't going to garner one. So, they are hoping that web apps will fill that void. They won't.

Meanwhile, the web will remain healthy and vibrant, and rumors of it's death are completely fabricated. It just isn't going to become that giant app repository in the cloud that some think it will or should.
post #69 of 84
Interesting that when Apple introduced the iPhone with a web app model they were roundly jeered for offering a crippled device, but now that they have a robust native app ecosystem that has somehow become a liability-- and worse, a sinister attack on the web itself.

And RIM is cool for offering exactly what for Apple was a lame half-measure. Huh.
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post #70 of 84
That may have also been because until fairly recently Blackberry's didn't come with cameras, which was often a factor when camera's weren't allowed in court rooms.

Things have changed since then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Really, grossly unfair. Lawyers were one of the first groups to really embrace smart phones and they happen to embrace BB more than others. It is telling that Apple is making major inroads into this established BB market. And his comment about some business people hating Apple isn't off the mark. There has been historical resistance to Apple in the corporate world forever, it's a simple fact. Recognizing it doesn't make him clueless.
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post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by samban View Post

Have they released the SDK yet. That will decide how much time developers get to create apps if, RIM is is really interested in that (but from comments it doesn't seem to be the case).

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I havent read about a specific SDK for the PlayBook, but the UI is Adobe AIR, so wouldnt that mean they already have a decent sized developer body built-in?

They released an SDK 1-2 weeks ago. You download part of it from RIM and part from Adobe.

I had a brief look and decided not to waste my time.

.
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post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

and worse, a sinister attack on the web itself.

But it is extremely funny to see how the law professor who coined the term net neutrality is basically naming Apple as enemy number 1.
post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

But it is extremely funny to see how the law professor who coined the term net neutrality is basically naming Apple as enemy number 1.

Just means he's not always right. Clearly, public enemy #1 is Google, especially now that they've publicly come out against real net neutrality.
post #74 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by zindako View Post

Thats nice, but I think Apple is selling more iPhones than Blackberry is selling their own smart phones.

That is not true. Not yet, anyways.
post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexkhan2000 View Post

Don't know if this has been posted here yet. Thought I'd share. Saw it over at Daring Fireball which linked to laughingsquid.com. Pretty spot on, I'd say...





Love it!!!
post #76 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

What?!! remember when SJ said developers can create web apps for the original iPhone? I remember and I remember the outcry. Apple didn't force anyone to create apps. Developers are free to either use the web apps or native apps.

I think his point is that whole web should be available from (built-in) browser, instead of having YouTube app, and FaceBook app, and Farmville app, and...

While I don't mind having them separated on my iPhone, there's nothing wrong with idea of tablet being able to copy desktop/laptop approach when it comes to web... and I do miss lack of Flash on my iPhone from time to time.
post #77 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-G View Post

When RIM has served billions and billions of Apps like Apple, THEN they can disparage Apple's App Strategy.

That is a bit too vague. Maybe you should define exact number of fart apps, light sabre apps, funny sound apps that RIM has to achieve in order to be qualified for disparaging Apple's strategy.

post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

RIM's circling the bowl, folks. They've got nothing to compete with Apple or even Android.

Apps are key. RIM has no apps worth discussing. So Jim Ballsilie figures he can pretend apps aren't important and actually get away with it.


Can't agree with you.

If apps were that important to wide audience, Windows Mobile would never dethrone Palm OS, time ago.

Nor would iOS dethrone any of them (it didn't have more apps allthe time).

Nor would Android be dethroning iOS as we speak (and still not having iOS apps library).
post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Can't agree with you.

If apps were that important to wide audience, Windows Mobile would never dethrone Palm OS, time ago.

Nor would iOS dethrone any of them (it didn't have more apps allthe time).

Nor would Android be dethroning iOS as we speak (and still not having iOS apps library).

what Quadra means (i think) is that RIM has not shown any 3rd party good apps (not debating that windows mobile or Palm have more good ones then Apple etc.) but the good apps, not the bad ones, help make a phone more successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

RIM's circling the bowl, folks. They've got nothing to compete with Apple or even Android.

Apps are key. RIM has no apps worth discussing. So Jim Ballsilie figures he can pretend apps aren't important and actually get away with it.

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

what Quadra means (i think) is that RIM has not shown any 3rd party good apps (not debating that windows mobile or Palm have more good ones then Apple etc.) but the good apps, not the bad ones, help make a phone more successful.

Microkernal Madness -- the logical extension...




Notice the small block (bottom, 2nd from right) called "Patient" -- an output only block!

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