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European carriers threaten Apple over embedded SIM option - Page 3

post #81 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

... the 500% wireless penetration world.

That's some new TSA program you're referring to, right?
post #82 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Right, the way it currently works, if you buy an unlocked phone, or get it unlocked, you can then swap SIM cards. The point is, we have no idea at this point in time if embedded SIM cards would work the same way, or if it would effectively mean the end of unlocked phones, or, assuming that doesn't happen, how easy or onerous the process of swapping SIM info might be. Until there are hard details on how it would work, and how it would be implemented, there's no way to know that embedded SIMS will be a positive thing for the consumer.

So, yes, people would prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't.

What countries offer unlocked iPhones? Why do they offer unlocked iPhones? Either Apple is required to by law or it behooves them because that country’s market works that way. Either way, this doesn’t change any of that. All this does is remove a very large piece of mostly unused plastic that holds very little data that could easily be placed in storage that is already on the baseband chip and hold SIM data from every carrier in the world.
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post #83 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

That's some new TSA program you're referring to, right?

Your argument is penny-wise and dollar-stupid.

Why would I care if there is a slight possibility that my cell phone bills may be a little higher --- if I can get my electricity cheaper (because they don't have to pay a bunch of people walking down the streets every day to read the meters), if I can get my food cheaper (because it may be cheap enough for even the small local supermarket chain to have fleet management of their trucks with these M2M wireless devices)...

A million things will get cheaper and you care about how your phone bill may be a little bit higher. And your argument is supposedly "pro-consumer".
post #84 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What countries offer unlocked iPhones?

http://store.apple.com/au/browse/hom...mco=OTY2ODA2OQ

http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/hom...co=MTgxNTgzMzY
post #85 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

A million things will get cheaper and you care about how your phone bill may be a little bit higher. And your argument is supposedly "pro-consumer".

Will they get cheaper, or will business profits get larger?
post #86 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Will they get cheaper, or will business profits get larger?

Both.

Of course, we are talking in an apple forum in which whatever good happens to Apple the stock price automatically translates to the betterment of mankind. Whatever good happens to Apple the for-profit company doesn't necessarily mean good things to consumers.

What I am talking about is that the whole economy is going to benefit.
post #87 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

So where are all the usual European suspects who come in and post how they can change SIM cards whenever they want and pay 2 for billions of GB of data for tethering to their laptops at phenomenal speeds everywhere they go and unlimited calls because Europe is oh, so much better than America and networks there allow freedom to do what you want backed up by the EU.

HERE! The main point being, having interchangeable SIMs does increase competition, thus lowering price (just compare U.S to Asia or Europe). Add number portability to that and unlocked phones, you're set.

- Interchangeable SIMs = phone independence (as long as you buy one of the hundreds of unlocked phones out there)
- Number portability = Operator independence (your phone number doesn't change and your phone book moves as well since you can reuse your old SIM).

And yes, I kind of like the mandatory number portability and the mandatory caps on Euro-wide roaming charges. What's wrong with that? Oh, the fact that it was MANDATED by an authority? My benefit is lowered prices and improved services and more convenience and flexibility via legislation. I'll take that anyday.

Apple's model only makes it more difficult to change phones when one wants to. That naturally is their goal. Not operator independence. That already exists. Of course Apple will market it with the full reality distortion field on so that people who believe blindly in Apple gospel think they've been saved (again). Apple has many brilliant ideas and tech, this is not one of them.

Regs, Jarkko
post #88 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

HERE! The main point being, having interchangeable SIMs does increase competition…

Compared to a virtual SIM setup, it doesn’t affect competition. If the phone is locked, it’s locked, and you still can’t switch SIM between carriers and countries until it’s unlocked.
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post #89 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

To me, their idea sounds like something theyd submit to ISO, IEC, ETSI, etc. Something theyd make free since adoption doesnt look to harm their bottom line and could help it by giving them more freedom in their designs. Something akin to mini-DisplayPort.

Yep. GEMALTO (the other culprit in this scheme) is working with Apple on their own solution, but the GSM Association is working on a similar tech backed by at least AT&T and Deutche Telekom http://www.gsmworld.com/our-work/mob...e_overview.htm. Their goal is to have cars, fridges etc. be provisioned easily into the networks.

Regs, Jarkko
post #90 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Compared to a virtual SIM setup, it doesnt affect competition. If the phone is locked, its locked, and you still cant switch SIM between carriers and countries until its unlocked.

But the point there was. Interchangeable SIMs means: interchangeable phones. It enables increased competition on the device side as well. Also allows me to use a device in another network, where my device doesn't work (for example incompatible frequencies). Quite common that.

Regs, Jarkko
post #91 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerJJ View Post

This is just speculation, but why even require the vending machine? i.e. You arrive in a foreign airport at 1am, your embedded sim sees from the surrounding networks that you're in another country, and connects to one with restricted data access allowing you to sign up to and select a contract from the local carriers on the device. You get back home and get prompted to switch back to your original line. Sounds pretty convenient to me.

Except if none of the operators in said country have implemented Apple's proprietary SIM registration feature. You see, the SIM has one thing going for it. It is utterly standardised.

Apple's idea locks you into Apple. That's the bad thing about it. From an operator lock, to a vendor lock. Or worst case: vendor + operator lock. At least the SIM allows me to change vendor if I wish. And operator if I had the foresight of buying an unlocked device (yes I do intensive international travel so an unlocked device is VERY convenient).

Regs, Jarkko
post #92 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think most of you are missing the point. What exactly are you swapping when you swap the card? The data! Thats it. The physical card is just a method by which to accomplish this task, but as pointed out many times in this thread there are plenty of ways to move codes and data between devices. Most of the ways I have conceived would be faster and easier than physically swapping a SIM card.

Yes they would if they were standard. But how do you for example use a standard bluetooth connection to send fairly standard contact data from an iPhone to another vendors device that is not in the Apple MFI program? Or a photo? These are things that can be done between non-Apple vendors.

Since these two simple tasks are not doable today clearly because Apple doesn't want it to be, why would you assume Apple would allow the SIM info to be moved? I have my doubts unless Apple states that they will use a open standard that is compatible with other vendors. It is interesting to see how this develops though.

Regs, Jarkko
post #93 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

edit: The only encryption I see is when talking to the carrier. It looks like the total size might be 20 digits. You could input that by hand or NFC or BT could do it from a secure setting option within the phone, while being able to store dozens and dozens of virtual-SIM entries.

Well the main problem is the Authentication key (Ki). This information is stored in a non-readable part of the SIM (or USIM for 3G) and the HLR. This is NEVER transmitted outside the SIM card. This is also used for authenticating the user and calculating the ciphering keys. All of this calculation occurs on the SIM card itself.

To copy the card contents, you'd have to change the whole premise of GSM and 3G security (the SIM is a virtual safe).

The operator maps the IMSI of the subscriber to the subscription and thus the actual phone number. So if you lose your SIM, the operator assigns you a new IMSI (and SIM-card). The IMSI is your true phone number and identity in the network. The dialed phone number is just mapped to this IMSI code at the operator's HLR.

If you can make an automated system to change this mapping at the operator's HLR immediately on user request, then an embedded SIM system would work without changing the security basis of GSM and WCDMA

Regs, Jarkko
post #94 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post

You have any evidence for this? It's a crazy assertion. The idea is very simple. Just like you change WiFi networks with your software, in the same way you would change Carriers with an embedded SIM through your software. No freedom is taken away, rather a bunch more is given to you.

I subscribe with 3HK. My friend uses PCCW. I want to send my friend a photo. Right now I can take out my 3HK SIM, put in a HK$50 (US$6) PCCW stored value SIM, send a free MMS to my friend, take out the PCCW SIM, put in the 3 SIM and go back to my day. How do I do that with an embedded SIM?
post #95 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

But the point there was. Interchangeable SIMs means: interchangeable phones. It enables increased competition on the device side as well. Also allows me to use a device in another network, where my device doesn't work (for example incompatible frequencies). Quite common that.

Regs, Jarkko

The only way to increase competition is --- to increase the number of carriers.

Simlocking laws don't work, outlawing exclusivity doesn't work, and giving away 3G licenses on the cheap doesn't work.

UK has pretty much the cheapest iphone plans in industrialized Europe --- this is a country that allows simlocking, allows iphone exclusivity and had the most expensive 3G auction on the planet.
post #96 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

1. Credit card.
2. Pay later? You might be out of the country in a day or an hour. You pay as you go for anything but your primary carrier (ie: AT&T US). Apple will eventually handle all of these payments for you. All you will see are simple fields in Settings.
3. How well is that working out for you now if you have an iPhone? The days of buying sims for cash for the iPhone is on it's way out.

1. Thought so. What if I don't want to give my name, credit card number, expiry date, security code, and home address to yet another phone company? And isn't this a hell of a lot more work than going into 7-11 and giving them a few dollars for a SIM? Again, they are taking away my freedom to do that.

2. So you have to pay first, i.e. give them your life story and credit history. Yeah... that's not infringing on my privacy at all... And while travelling? So if I travel to say... PRC, where there is more corruption and white collar crime than pretty much anywhere in the world, I'm supposed to give someone I have no trust in my credit card number, home address... so on and so forth?

3. It's working great. I have a credit card, actually, but even if I didn't, I could buy an unlocked iPhone in HK for cash, buy a stored value SIM in Hong Kong for cash or even subscribe to a monthly plan with ID and proof of address (no credit card needed) and pop the SIM into my cash-paid iPhone. Just because you don't have the freedom to do so in the US doesn't mean, "the days of buying sims for cash for the iPhone is on it's way out." The fact is they don't have to be and we shouldn't let them.

Embedded SIM is a bad idea.

Here's another scenario:

My friend's phone runs out of battery. He needs to make an urgent call. I pop out my SIM and he pops his in, and makes his call on his dollar. How do I do that with an embedded SIM?
post #97 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

1. Thought so. What if I don't want to give my name, credit card number, expiry date, security code, and home address to yet another phone company? And isn't this a hell of a lot more work than going into 7-11 and giving them a few dollars for a SIM? Again, they are taking away my freedom to do that.

2. So you have to pay first, i.e. give them your life story and credit history. Yeah... that's not infringing on my privacy at all... And while travelling? So if I travel to say... PRC, where there is more corruption and white collar crime than pretty much anywhere in the world, I'm supposed to give someone I have no trust in my credit card number, home address... so on and so forth?

3. It's working great. I have a credit card, actually, but even if I didn't, I could buy an unlocked iPhone in HK for cash, buy a stored value SIM in Hong Kong for cash or even subscribe to a monthly plan with ID and proof of address (no credit card needed) and pop the SIM into my cash-paid iPhone. Just because you don't have the freedom to do so in the US doesn't mean, "the days of buying sims for cash for the iPhone is on it's way out." The fact is they don't have to be and we shouldn't let them.

Embedded SIM is a bad idea.

Here's another scenario:

My friend's phone runs out of battery. He needs to make an urgent call. I pop out my SIM and he pops his in, and makes his call on his dollar. How do I do that with an embedded SIM?

Plenty of countries require SIM card registrations. So you can't just buy a prepaid SIM card without giving them information as well.

Hong Kong has 6 carriers --- most of them owned by local billionaires who are willing to lose money to buy market share. This is why it had been the iphone paradise since day 1 (even though it had an iphone exclusive carrier). NOTHING is going to change the fact that the level of competition is determined by the number of carriers. It didn't matter that Hong Kong also had a fixture of network technology (they had a cdma network). It didn't matter that local laws allow simlocking.

If your phone is a simlocked phone and your friend has another carrier --- then your friend can't make the phone call either. Besides, if I need to make an urgent call and you as my friend try to nickel/dime me for that call --- you are no longer my friend.
post #98 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Except if none of the operators in said country have implemented Apple's proprietary SIM registration feature. You see, the SIM has one thing going for it. It is utterly standardised.

Apple's idea locks you into Apple. That's the bad thing about it. From an operator lock, to a vendor lock. Or worst case: vendor + operator lock. At least the SIM allows me to change vendor if I wish. And operator if I had the foresight of buying an unlocked device (yes I do intensive international travel so an unlocked device is VERY convenient).

Regs, Jarkko

Divide and conquer! If only one carrier signs up, they "win" all the iPhone contracts coming into the country. That's a big incentive for any carrier to sign up, but also for remaining carriers to go in so that their competitors don't get all of that pie!

In any case as noted elsewhere in the thread, it looks like the GSMA is working on making this a standard. It will be interesting to see where the control lies with the eventual proposed standard (carrier, vendor, or god forbid, the customer!), and one would hope that Apple is working with them on this rather than investing in a proprietary system.
post #99 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

If your phone is a simlocked phone and your friend has another carrier --- then your friend can't make the phone call either. Besides, if I need to make an urgent call and you as my friend try to nickel/dime me for that call --- you are no longer my friend.

We're talking about unlocked phones here. Period. Your first point is irrelevant in this context.

So your friend who wants to borrow your phone to make an urgent call just checks his phone for the numbe... oh, wait.
post #100 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Hong Kong has 6 carriers --- most of them owned by local billionaires who are willing to lose money to buy market share.

So all those carriers are losing money...

No, they are actually more profitable than any of the US carriers. NO LOCKING is the way to go. Embedded SIMS take locking and move it to another level. Double-lock. Locked into one carrier AND locked into one handset, instead of just being locked into one carrier. Greeeat!
post #101 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerJJ View Post

Divide and conquer! If only one carrier signs up, they "win" all the iPhone contracts coming into the country. That's a big incentive for any carrier to sign up, but also for remaining carriers to go in so that their competitors don't get all of that pie!

In any case as noted elsewhere in the thread, it looks like the GSMA is working on making this a standard. It will be interesting to see where the control lies with the eventual proposed standard (carrier, vendor, or god forbid, the customer!), and one would hope that Apple is working with them on this rather than investing in a proprietary system.

Operators wanting iphone inbound roamers is directly proportional to apple marketshare. Consider that of all the subs in a network, only a few percent are incoming roamers. Now take apple's phone (not smartphone) marketshare and you start to see how much an operator would lose by not taking the apple tech in roaming cases. I'd say that the value is very low.

For home subs the story might be different, but operators are quite reluctant to adopt a single vendor's proprietary tech at a largr scale.

Well aware of GSM Assocs plans. There are at least two points to consider in that case.

1) GSM Assoc is not a standardisation body. It is a recommended practice body.

2) GSM association version is more likely to become an adopted standard than Apple+gemalto version. Unless they both become one and the same, I see Apple adopting a proprietary SIM tech as a bad thing for the consumer. It would also mean that there will be plenty of operators that will not have the tech. So it narrows consumer choice.
post #102 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

The only way to increase competition is --- to increase the number of carriers.

Simlocking laws don't work, outlawing exclusivity doesn't work, and giving away 3G licenses on the cheap doesn't work.

UK has pretty much the cheapest iphone plans in industrialized Europe --- this is a country that allows simlocking, allows iphone exclusivity and had the most expensive 3G auction on the planet.

My. You are still looking at isolated examples as if they were the rule of land. You have been proven wrong on so many counts that, well..

Your basic premise is correct, but fails to see the whole picture. In many places legistation is in place to protect the consumer from corporations that have a dominating position that they can use to stifle competition.

For some odd reason, the general prices of subscriptions are lowest in places where there are many consumer procting laws in place and unlocked phones are the norm. How do you explain that?


Giving licences on the "reasonable" does work if done right. Auctions when done wrong like the euro auctions in the UK and GErmany were done, doesn't work either. They never filled thei goals. Plenty of studies on that as well.
post #103 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayeTyler View Post

I work for a telecoms provider in the UK and, merely speaking from my experience of the systems currently in use (MNP for porting mobile numbers) I believe this would be tricky to implement.

Currently, if I have a number active on a SIM it exists on my operators billing system and HLR. If someone trying to activate my number on another SIM it'd fail because they don't own the number. Currently I would have to get a PAC to change provider.

At the moment the provider has 48 hours to give this code but this will soon change to 2 hours. Even if my SIM was capable of potentially connecting to any UK network, using current practices I'd have to transfer the number with a PAC. If I was in contract I'd pay a termination fee.

For the people talking about Apple managing it with a menu or something that displays the available networks...that doesn't really fit in with current systems, as Apple would still follow the same process...disconnect on network A, connect on network B. Apple couldn't request termination of a contract on behalf of a customer of most, if not all, carriers require the contract holder to make such a request.

I see no reason for the carrier to care as there's no difference. They sell a network locked handset with subsidy and an 18 month/24 month contract. At the end they unlock the phone. OR, they sell unlocked, full price PAYG. PAYG is seen as low value anyway as the revenue isn't guaranteed.

Unless there is a full rework of the porting system it's not going to be as convenient as it potentially could be. Also, in terms in creating a new account with a new provider, there'd have to be a system created to apply for service on the phone, that's linked to credit agencies etc and you get a yes or no.

As for going abroad, I don't think it'd be possible as you'd have to get a new number for the foreign network as different countries have different numbers. UK numbers start 07 and have 11 digits and this number couldn't port to a foreign network at the moment. so you'd need a new number in whatever country you're in. You couldn't get a contract there as there is no credit history etc so it'd be PAYG only.

If there are major changes then potentially this could be a really good system. A fair few years off I believe. Not the embedded SIM idea per sé but certainly the easy switch of provider.

Cheers.

David

I think you're fixating too much on the notion that each of the "virtual SIMs" you might keep inside this phone must each use the same mobile phone number. I don't see that case at all. I look at more like a virtual wallet of multiple SIMs, each of them active on a different mobile network, domestic or foreign, and each of them with a different mobile phone number.

Maybe, they could even come up with a secure, trustworthy, and exploitation-resistant means to "beam" the SIM data from one subscriber's phone to another phone (or from an automated "virtual SIM card" vending machine to a phone), effectively deleting the SIM card from the original phone's virtual SIM wallet at the same time as it inserts the card into the recipient phone's virtual wallet, to allow for hotswapping just the same as you already can between any two unlocked phones today.

Obviously, the act of hotswapping SIM cards, today, doesn't do anything to relieve you from your obligation to continue paying the swapped-out mobile carrier its agreed-upon monthly tariffs, or else pay an early termination fee if that option is available to you. This wouldn't be any different if you hotswapped "virtual SIMs" in a world of virtualized SIM cards.
post #104 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We're talking about unlocked phones here. Period. Your first point is irrelevant in this context.

So your friend who wants to borrow your phone to make an urgent call just checks his phone for the numbe... oh, wait.

Well if you have a iphone 4 that comes with a micro sim slot and your friend's dead battery phone has a regular size sim card --- you can't do anything anyway, even when your iphone 4 is unlocked.

He can dial 411 telephone directory on your phone to find out the telephone number or he can use your iphone 4's web browser to go to the internet to find the telephone number.
post #105 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So all those carriers are losing money...

No, they are actually more profitable than any of the US carriers. NO LOCKING is the way to go. Embedded SIMS take locking and move it to another level. Double-lock. Locked into one carrier AND locked into one handset, instead of just being locked into one carrier. Greeeat!

Superman Li's son tried to privatize PCCW (unsuccessfully) because the stock was so low --- that showed you how profitable these companies are. Go and read their actual financial filings --- Hong Kong public disclosure rules are garbage. All these carriers aren't doing that well.

You can't BS me --- I am a Hong Kong born Canadian.

In fact, many of Superman Li's Hutchison 3 empire around the world has been losing money --- often deliberately. He bought high at the peak of the market bubble in 2000, he can't sell it, he can't IPO it (he tried unsuccessfully with 3 Italia) --- so what does he try to do? He starts all sorts of price wars to force the other carriers to buy his carrier. And he was only half successful in Australia where he was able to partially cash out by merging Hutchison 3 Australia with Vodafone Australia.
post #106 of 120
.......
That step, however, could cost Apple. Bienenstock estimated that Apples global iPhone sales could take a 12 percent hit if European carriers made good on their threats to drop subsidies for the handset. [/QUOTE]


If Apple takes a 12% hit, the carriers will take an even bigger hit. Keep in mind that while the carriers subsidize the phone they also make money, perhaps less but thats business.
Usually the Volume and extras in each contract make up for subsidizing the phone.
post #107 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

My. You are still looking at isolated examples as if they were the rule of land. You have been proven wrong on so many counts that, well..

Your basic premise is correct, but fails to see the whole picture. In many places legistation is in place to protect the consumer from corporations that have a dominating position that they can use to stifle competition.

For some odd reason, the general prices of subscriptions are lowest in places where there are many consumer procting laws in place and unlocked phones are the norm. How do you explain that?


Giving licences on the "reasonable" does work if done right. Auctions when done wrong like the euro auctions in the UK and GErmany were done, doesn't work either. They never filled thei goals. Plenty of studies on that as well.

These are not isolated examples at all --- for the first time in history, ordinary people like you and me can obtain a fairly accurate comparison by just looking at iphone plans.

You don't even give examples --- you just claimed that you're right.

How is UK auction done wrong --- when they have the cheapest iphone in the G7? The UK government got plenty of cash and Brits got cheap mobile tariff.

There is no done right or done wrong --- these aren't abstract theoretical exercises. We live in an imperfect world --- and you know what? The American system may not be perfect, but it works a lot better than the rest of the world. NOBODY ever whispered "3G beauty contest" anymore --- it's been totally discredited. Go look at your neighbor in Sweden. This is why the whole EU has been talking about their long term goal of moving towards "bill and keep" American style mobile termination rate.
post #108 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4 View Post

If Apple takes a 12% hit, the carriers will take an even bigger hit. Keep in mind that while the carriers subsidize the phone they also make money, perhaps less but thats business.
Usually the Volume and extras in each contract make up for subsidizing the phone.

The problem is that Apple stocks already account for that growth --- Apple share price drops like a rock if there is no "one more thing".
post #109 of 120
It is almost impossible to buy SIM cards without identification, due to terrorists using them as fuses in bombs.

Governments around the world have cracked down quite hard on this.

You buy a SIM it still has to be registered which usually involves being linked to a person who can prove their identity..

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

1. Thought so. What if I don't want to give my name, credit card number, expiry date, security code, and home address to yet another phone company? And isn't this a hell of a lot more work than going into 7-11 and giving them a few dollars for a SIM? Again, they are taking away my freedom to do that.
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post #110 of 120
It all fits in 64k, so say you set aside 64MB of memory (which isn't much in today's world) you'd have more than enough room, (given that most of the 64 or 128k memory of SIM cards is used for the phonebook) for a thousand virtual SIMS, which would cover basically every phone network on earth.

Now we're talking baby, a phone that has the potential to be linked to several thousand numbers, switched on and off at will and as easy to set up as supplying a code of some sort, some ID and some cash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Well the main problem is the Authentication key (Ki). This information is stored in a non-readable part of the SIM (or USIM for 3G) and the HLR. This is NEVER transmitted outside the SIM card. This is also used for authenticating the user and calculating the ciphering keys. All of this calculation occurs on the SIM card itself.

To copy the card contents, you'd have to change the whole premise of GSM and 3G security (the SIM is a virtual safe).

The operator maps the IMSI of the subscriber to the subscription and thus the actual phone number. So if you lose your SIM, the operator assigns you a new IMSI (and SIM-card). The IMSI is your true phone number and identity in the network. The dialed phone number is just mapped to this IMSI code at the operator's HLR.

If you can make an automated system to change this mapping at the operator's HLR immediately on user request, then an embedded SIM system would work without changing the security basis of GSM and WCDMA

Regs, Jarkko
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post #111 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

It is almost impossible to buy SIM cards without identification, due to terrorists using them as fuses in bombs.

Governments around the world have cracked down quite hard on this.

You buy a SIM it still has to be registered which usually involves being linked to a person who can prove their identity..

I really think you live in an Amereurocentric world and have no real idea about what governments "around the world" -- at least in my part of the world -- are cracking down on. Hell, I travelled to Thailand in July and they were handing out free SIMs at the airport with free minutes in them, ready to use. Thaliland. I guess there are no terrorists there...
post #112 of 120
Australia

Thailand

Quote:
The Mobile Phone Card Controversy

For many years, mobile phone service in Thailand was sold anonymously, through the use of pre-paid SIM cards that consumers could purchase in stores.[51] However, the recent terrorism has led government officials to retract that anonymity, creating new avenues for potential abuse of mobile phone customer data and a loss of privacy in that marketplace.

Many of the terrorist acts in the South have involved homemade bombs set off by mobile phones modified to trigger the explosions.[52] This led government officials to propose requiring SIM card purchasers to show identification. The first report that such an idea was being considered was on April 5, 2005.[53] Only 13 days later, with almost no intervening debate in the media, the major telecommunications organizations and agencies such as ICT held a meeting, the result of which was a sudden announcement that SIM card purchasers would need to present identification.[54] The plan was passed by agreement among the parties; no legislation was involved.[55] Several individuals have expressed their support for this program as a step forward in preventing terrorist acts,[56] and a poll taken contemporaneous to the agreement found that the people generally supported it.[57]

However, substantial criticism of the proposed plan has come from all sides. ICT Minister Suvit Khunkitti worried that mere identification of SIM card buyers wouldn't stop terrorists who could use "several communications tools. . . to set off explosions."[58] Others noted that fake ID cards could easily be used,[59] or SIM cards could be illegally bought or brought from neighboring countries,[60] so the plan would ultimately fail. Several decried the invasion of privacy inherent in the plan,[61] some going so far as to suggest that ICT had "ulterior motives" to misuse the personal information.[62]

Source.

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Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I really think you live in an Amereurocentric world and have no real idea about what governments "around the world" -- at least in my part of the world -- are cracking down on. Hell, I travelled to Thailand in July and they were handing out free SIMs at the airport with free minutes in them, ready to use. Thaliland. I guess there are no terrorists there...
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #113 of 120
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Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

It is almost impossible to buy SIM cards without identification, due to terrorists using them as fuses in bombs.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

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Governments around the world have cracked down quite hard on this.

Not in Ireland. Everyone else, feel free to continue adding countries to this list.

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You buy a SIM it still has to be registered which usually involves being linked to a person who can prove their identity..

Or, you know, you're given a free SIM card with a little bit of credit on it as part of a promotion and they have absolutely no idea who you are or that you'll soon be taking it to the U.S. and racking up data charges for free while roaming on an American network.

What? That's what I do. O2 Ireland SIM in my Day One 2007 U.S. iPhone.
post #114 of 120
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA



Not in Ireland. Everyone else, feel free to continue adding countries to this list.



Or, you know, you're given a free SIM card with a little bit of credit on it as part of a promotion and they have absolutely no idea who you are or that you'll soon be taking it to the U.S. and racking up data charges for free while roaming on an American network.

What? That's what I do. O2 Ireland SIM in my Day One 2007 U.S. iPhone.

You can pick up a Bell SIM card at any supermarket checkout aisle in Canada, pay cash, no questions asked. Same goes for a blister packed prepaid cell phone from any of Canada's major carriers, either SIM-included or CDMA-based, at any Walmart electronics department.

When activating a Virgin Mobile Canada prepaid phone over the Internet, which is the only brand of prepaid that I've actually activated recently, they don't appear to do anything to actually verify the authenticity of the information I provide in the online form. Now, when I activated a postpaid account, they took more steps to verify my identity and credit worthiness. But that's probably due more to their vested interest in being able to identify me just in case me account goes in arrears and they need to collect my debt.
post #115 of 120
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Originally Posted by tonton View Post

1. Thought so. What if I don't want to give my name, credit card number, expiry date, security code, and home address to yet another phone company? And isn't this a hell of a lot more work than going into 7-11 and giving them a few dollars for a SIM? Again, they are taking away my freedom to do that.

Well, the most seamless solution is that you pay via iTunes and there's no need for sending any of that.

The more annoying solution is to use a virtual pre-paid credit card like from paypal.

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2. So you have to pay first, i.e. give them your life story and credit history. Yeah... that's not infringing on my privacy at all... And while travelling? So if I travel to say... PRC, where there is more corruption and white collar crime than pretty much anywhere in the world, I'm supposed to give someone I have no trust in my credit card number, home address... so on and so forth?

Or you can use the two options above...

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Embedded SIM is a bad idea.

Meh. You lose some flexibility in some areas and gain it in others.

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Here's another scenario:

My friend's phone runs out of battery. He needs to make an urgent call. I pop out my SIM and he pops his in, and makes his call on his dollar. How do I do that with an embedded SIM?

Well, you could just let him make an urgent call and pay you back later or buy you a beer. Are you so tight on minutes it really matters? Who really gives a shit about this scenario? My wife has asked strangers to borrow their cell to call me when her phone is dead (and they've let her) so you're going to worry about a buddy borrowing your phone? Get real.
post #116 of 120
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Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

So where are all the usual European suspects who come in and post how they can change SIM cards whenever they want and pay 2 for billions of GB of data for tethering to their laptops at phenomenal speeds everywhere they go and unlimited calls because Europe is oh, so much better than America and networks there allow freedom to do what you want backed up by the EU.




Don't worry, Google will step in with Android to pick up the slack and put things back the way they were, for the carriers.

Well for the most part Europe is better than the US in terms of celluar "stuff" however the operators realize that they are nothing more than just big pipes and well they do not like the term even if it is true. They also realize that they are a self licking ice cream cone and are marginalizing each other with pricing and tariff wars. Now Sonera have dropped unlimited data but offers 3 gigs or something like that for 11 dollars (equivalent in Euros) a month but they do not police it. If you go over, you go over and they do not say anything. The data speeds are now up to 15 Mbps for most operators and subscribers are switching left and right because the prices are so cheap. Apple just poked the operators in the eye (rightfully so) and they, the operators, don't like it. They'll get over it.
post #117 of 120
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Originally Posted by samab View Post

UK has pretty much the cheapest iphone plans in industrialized Europe --- this is a country that allows simlocking, allows iphone exclusivity and had the most expensive 3G auction on the planet.

I don't know. Sonera is pretty cheap, coming in at 31 for a bunch of minutes, SMS and data. I thought Germany had the most expensive auction, but you might for once be correct.

By the way, the cheapest unlocked iPhones that I know of are in Finland offered by Elisa. If you can purchase it via a business, it is even cheaper.
post #118 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

It is almost impossible to buy SIM cards without identification, due to terrorists using them as fuses in bombs.

Governments around the world have cracked down quite hard on this.

You buy a SIM it still has to be registered which usually involves being linked to a person who can prove their identity..

You can buy a SIM card in NZ without any ID and use it without registering
post #119 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Carriers in Europe are threatening to cut subsidies if Apple releases an iPhone with an embedded SIM card, a new report claims.

In October, reports emerged claiming that Apple has been working with Gemalto to develop an open SIM for integration into the iPhone. An embedded SIM card could allow customers to choose between competing carriers and activate service right from the Apple Store.

I believe embedded SIM card will somehow prevent us from handing our iPhones of previous generations to our nieces, nephews and godchildren. No good, Apple.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #120 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

I believe embedded SIM card will somehow prevent us from handing our iPhones of previous generations to our nieces, nephews and godchildren. No good, Apple.

That really depends on how transparent they make the sign-up procedure. Done right, it could be no more onerous to change carrier settings by downloading a standardized set of information through a standardized interface into an embedded SIM, than it currently is to physically swap SIM cards. We just don't know enough yet about the proposed implementation to be able to properly judge for ourselves.
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