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Carriers' threats force Apple to abandon embedded iPhone SIM plans - Page 2

post #41 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

Well that link just contained visionless twaddle.

Agree.

In terms of security, the SIM card is the weakest link. It is stupidly easy to clone a SIM card. The protocols that are used on SIM cards have not kept pace with modern technology and limit not only secuirty, but functions and addressability.

Additionally, this blogger talks about GSM. i.e. 2G networking. This is nothing to do with current devices.

Phil
post #42 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehan View Post

Funny, I take it as opposite.

How so? If the SIM is separate then I can take an unlocked phone to just about any country in the world, buy a SIM card in the mobile phone store in the airport, and immediately have a local phone that I can use. I did this with my Motorola GSM phone back in 2004 when I went to Australia and New Zealand. Local SIM cards from each country worked in my phone without any problems whatsoever.

If I didn't have the ability to swap SIM cards then it would have been a huge pain in the ass to get my phone to work in those countries. At the very least I'd have to contact the carrier in each country and swap some information about my phone with them in hopes that it would work.

How does an integrated SIM provide more freedom or less of a locked down environment than a removable SIM? How easier can it be then to walk into a store, purchase a SIM, and drop it into your phone?
post #43 of 92
Right, because no one but the carriers should control customers.

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post #44 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iphtashu Fitz View Post

How so? If the SIM is separate then I can take an unlocked phone to just about any country in the world, buy a SIM card in the mobile phone store in the airport, and immediately have a local phone that I can use. I did this with my Motorola GSM phone back in 2004 when I went to Australia and New Zealand. Local SIM cards from each country worked in my phone without any problems whatsoever.

If I didn't have the ability to swap SIM cards then it would have been a huge pain in the ass to get my phone to work in those countries. At the very least I'd have to contact the carrier in each country and swap some information about my phone with them in hopes that it would work.

How does an integrated SIM provide more freedom or less of a locked down environment than a removable SIM? How easier can it be then to walk into a store, purchase a SIM, and drop it into your phone?

People are making the assertion that integrated SIM would save space and the tedium of having to take a piece of plastic out of your phone. Instead, a location-aware device can simply talk to the nearest networks and purchase data in turn.
post #45 of 92
Well if it's true, and it's a big IF, then it's carriers 1 consumer 0

I bought my ip4 this time around and it's great and easy switching between the carriers with non contract. T-mobile is the best in my area and only £10 a month
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post #46 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iphtashu Fitz View Post

How so? If the SIM is separate then I can take an unlocked phone to just about any country in the world, buy a SIM card in the mobile phone store in the airport, and immediately have a local phone that I can use. I did this with my Motorola GSM phone back in 2004 when I went to Australia and New Zealand. Local SIM cards from each country worked in my phone without any problems whatsoever.

If I didn't have the ability to swap SIM cards then it would have been a huge pain in the ass to get my phone to work in those countries. At the very least I'd have to contact the carrier in each country and swap some information about my phone with them in hopes that it would work.

How does an integrated SIM provide more freedom or less of a locked down environment than a removable SIM? How easier can it be then to walk into a store, purchase a SIM, and drop it into your phone?

An integrated SIM doesn’t mean there is no SIM, it just means there is no physical SIM that is moved around. This mental block on how a SIM has to work is silly. All it has on it is some very basic data. Basic data that that can be added to a 3GPP device via many avenues. For example, the future of SIMs could be using NFC or BT to securely handshake and transfer the data at carrier’s store or through a kiosk. Another is buying the code in a vending machine and inputting it the way your would a unique serial key for software.

Again, the integrated SIM isn’t removing the SIM, just integrating, and it’s not going to make unlocked devices locked. It’s just removing the superfluous physical plastic for data that can be more easily and conveniently moved in other ways in this 21.1 century C.E. A truly world traveler could potentially have dozens of of SIMs for various countries and carriers in his phone at all times and only needs to access the Settings to switch between them as he crosses borders.
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post #47 of 92
"marginalizing the role carriers play"

But the role carriers play is way overblown, particularly in their own minds. God bless Apple for having at least gotten the industry to allow activation at home.
post #48 of 92
If The Telegraph reports thus, I'd inclined to believe the opposite. It's a pathetic sensationalistic tabloid.

What I'd like to see with integrated SIM is simultaneous dual carrier support, enabling clear differentiation of work and personal phone numbers.

So keep up the good work Apple!
post #49 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slang4Art View Post

One of them? You mean, one of those folks that enjoy liberty and privacy? My god, how ridiculous. Perhaps it may relieve some of the chafing of your undergarments to know that I dislike all parties and have no affiliation to any politician or organization. Obama is just an easy target because he over-promised in a way that no other president ever has and has truly failed to keep any of his promises or represent the people of this country whatsoever. He has, however, raised my taxes and allowed the TSA to get away with some truly terrible things on his watch. If you endorse Obama or government limitation of liberty in general, then there's probably little conversation to have to begin with. Most liberals (for lack of a better term) think their opinions validate the control and manipulation of others. Tucking your tail is certainly an easier choice to make than actually engaging the issue. And seriously, here in the States, I'm not the only person who is fed up with the governments of the world. If you aren't, you're mental, quite frankly.

Better watch out for those black UN helicopters -- I think the voices inside your head must be telling you they're coming for you (not to suggest actual insanity -- it's probably just the shrill droning of some Australian media magnate's shills :-)
post #50 of 92
The carriers are making a big mistake, you can't just threaten Apple.... I think that steve is really going to remember this some time in the future...
post #51 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slang4Art View Post

I would think the EU would be all over this protecting the rights of consumers, blah blah blah.

The EU only cares about the rights of consumers when it means they can milk a bunch of money from companies not based in the EU.

-kpluck

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post #52 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

No, but it is the company which has got the most press about EU anti-trust measures, so it must have the driving force behind your comment. And since you strongly implied that no European companies have been targeted by the EU anti-trust activities, you clearly do not know much about them.

The EU's search tool is under maintenance this weekend so only older cases are available but just to pick the cases closed in the year 1998:
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/anti...1990.html#1998
No, tell me again that there are no European companies among these.

You've obviously got a lot of issues that you need to work through because you keep making things up that I never said. Maybe you should see a psychologist.

I never said that the EU doesn't investigate European companies. That would be absurd.

Regarding Microsoft, I actually agree with the decisions the EU made in that case. But it's hard to know whether they made the right decision in that case for the right reason or the wrong reason. With these carriers colluding to punish Apple we have a test of whether the EU makes these decisions for the right reason or the wrong reason. The EU should investigate whether there's collusion here and if there is, the carriers should be punished. If the EU doesn't look into it, I question their objectivity.
post #53 of 92
The Telegraph? Seriously?! And we are supposed to believe these "news"? Co'mon, 15 years in the UK have taught me to never ever believe what the media publishes here. Their only aim is to sell headlines, not to inform!
post #54 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Hahahahahaha. Chicken apple.

Sorry but you failed!
Apple was trying to go against the grain of a very established and mostly corrupted,greedy a**, controlling telecomm industry
Apple chicken? Hardly!
post #55 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

The EU only cares about the rights of consumers when it means they can milk a bunch of money from companies not based in the EU.

Exactomundo! And cellular services are a great source of tax revenue. Keeping the cost of services high is of benefit to deficit-spending governments.
post #56 of 92
I find it highly amusing that folks are getting charged up about a rumor that another rumor might not be happening because of carriers strong-arming Apple over something that no one has provided any compelling argument as to why they really would care all that much about in the first place.

I'm sure apple bashers will still somehow declare victory when the next iPhone has a normal (mini) sim.
post #57 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

"marginalizing the role carriers play"

But the role carriers play is way overblown, particularly in their own minds. God bless Apple for having at least gotten the industry to allow activation at home.



Actually, many carriers have had the ability to do OTA activations for years. Apple [re]started the whole must activate in the store thing. Not AT&T.
post #58 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOBIZ View Post

Actually, many carriers have had the ability to do OTA activations for years. Apple [re]started the whole must activate in the store thing. Not AT&T.

From what I recall, Apple had the original iPhone activate via iTunes, whether it be at home, in the Apple Store or carriers store. For the iPhone 3G they required an in-store activation at first, and with the next iPhones they allowed you to have them shipped to you and activated through iTunes again, or through the Apple Store or carriers store.
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post #59 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

From what I recall, Apple had the original iPhone activate via iTunes, whether it be at home, in the Apple Store or carrier’s store. For the iPhone 3G they required an in-store activation at first, and with the next iPhones they allowed you to have them shipped to you and activated through iTunes again, or through the Apple Store or carrier’s store.


In store activations such as they were for the 3G were driven by Apple primarily but for the same reason we have seen in other countries where people bought several and then sold them off at higher prices.
post #60 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

I find it highly amusing that folks are getting charged up about a rumor that another rumor might not be happening because of carriers strong-arming Apple over something that no one has provided any compelling argument as to why they really would care all that much about in the first place.

I'm sure apple bashers will still somehow declare victory when the next iPhone has a normal (mini) sim.


micro
post #61 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The whole thing sounded weak to begin with, but the idea that the iPad 2 could be released within a few weeks when Black Friday is in 5 days clenches this as complete BS.

Not that I think the next iPad is coming that soon, but the fact that Black Friday is in 5 days would only serve to make it more likely, not less. Apple could get rid of all stock of existing iPads by pricing them right, and then move on to the next version. Not gonna happen, but your logic is off.
post #62 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Not that I think the next iPad is coming that soon, but the fact that Black Friday is in 5 days would only serve to make it more likely, not less. Apple could get rid of all stock of existing iPads by pricing them right, and then move on to the next version. Not gonna happen, but your logic is off.

Do you have any precedent that shows Apple releasing any major new HW after Thanksgiving? I can’t think of any. I can’t think of any company that routinely dropped major new products right after Black Friday. Given the time stores give for returns they’d have to work it to mid December. Because seeking to screw customers over, it’s just not a good time to market a new product in pretty every case I can imagine. I’m sure there some bona fide business reasons why this isn’t commonplace.
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post #63 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Do you have any precedent that shows Apple releasing any major new HW after Thanksgiving? I cant think of any. I cant think of any company that routinely dropped major new products right after Black Friday. Given the time stores give for returns theyd have to work it to mid December. Because seeking to screw customers over, its just not a good time to market a new product in pretty every case I can imagine. Im sure there some bona fide business reasons why this isnt commonplace.

The specific holiday? No, but that's not the point. Apple releases new hardware all the time after goosing the market one way or another to clear out old stock. Sound like any particular holiday to you?

That's why they give away free iPods with the purchase of a Mac in the run-up to back to school and then release a new model right after.
post #64 of 92
The last time Steve Jobs was sent packing, he left, all right, and formed NeXt. The second coming of Steve Jobs upended computers and every thing digital.

Carriers,
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
post #65 of 92
This insanity is no longer funny. It borders on psychotic. Rumors of rumored possibilities beget rumors of reactions to rumors of rumors. Certain rumors are then rumored to be fact which causes "analysts" to react to the rumored factual rumors.

Then, when reality sticks it's ugly head into the equation, reality itself becomes a rumor to be dismissed as a rumor only to be resurrected as a prediction come true.

To the posters here who are discussing this as if it were fact...are you really that damn stupid?
post #66 of 92
In an ideal world connecting to a cellular net wouldn't be more complicated than connecting to a WiFi network, enter a few parameters, and off you go; the device gets authorized as having paid for service by its unique ID. Done.

Unfortunately the reality is different: SIMs can be remotely programmer by carriers (and indirectly by governments) to do all sorts of things consumers have no clue about, like e.g. enabling audio transmissions without any signs of an active phone call, locate people through the network towers, etc.
The ability to go off grid is key to maintain basic civil liberties, and that means a removable SIM, and surely Apple will not make the SIM removable, then the entire reasoning is about more miniaturization.

Further, in an ideal world, everyone would pay the same for the same service. But again, that's not the case. e.g. using an original iPhone plan with an unlocked iPhone4 from overseas was already causing AT&T to adjust my calling plan because they detected an iPhone4, even though not bought through them and not subsidized by them, and even though my original calling plan was not tied to a specific device. I had to threaten with legal action to get my original, cheaper calling plan back. And why are there different prices for the same services depending on the user uses a Blackberry, iPhone, etc?

By having a built-in SIM that needs to go through the AppStore or some other channels, both Apple and the carriers get an extra level of control over what they will or will not sell to you based on the device you own.
e.g. when roaming in Austria I use a SIM and plan designed for the iPad in my iPhone, because it fits my needs better than what I can get for the phone. This only works when the SIM is decoupled hardware which only the user controls into which device he sticks it.

Further, with iOS devices not giving the legitimate users root privileges, there's even less control over what's going on on a computing device that you entrust sensitive information to. It's sad that we have to pray for exploitable security holes in a device to allow for jail breaking an a modicum of control over privacy issues.

Between jail breaking and unlocking users retain some control over their digital life. A built-in SIM will make such things even more difficult.
A side note: the people wondering why carriers want locked phones even though there's a legal contract to stick with the carrier for a fixed period of time, the answer is two words: roaming fees!
To use a phone locked to AT&T in Europe is $1.99/minute, a cheap European pre-paid SIM allows the same call for a few cents. Many iPhone users are frequent business travelers, and the inability to swap SIM cards earns carriers many millions in extra fees each year.

Moral of the story: things that would be great in a world ruled by engineers are horrible choices in a world ruled by business people, politicians and lawyers.
The thing that made the GSM phones such a success is that due to the removable SIM cards the kind of tie down to carriers people had in the old days of mobile phones went away, this increased competition, etc.
To give up that control by handing over the ability to choose what SIM can be in a device would be bad news for consumers.
post #67 of 92
So Apple is granted a patent application for something that may or may not be an actual product... Some stupid blog runs with a RUMOR story that it may be an actual product. The EU carriers are allegedly having a fit over this "product"... And now this article is stating that Apple is backing down from producing this fictional "product" because of those carriers!?!?

Good lord, what is journalism coming to? Apple NEVER said they were even attempting to make a programmable SIM, they just filed for a patent on it! Damn, these internets and the gullible morons who believe anything they read can really create a mountain out of molehill.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #68 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

An integrated SIM doesnt mean there is no SIM, it just means there is no physical SIM that is moved around. This mental block on how a SIM has to work is silly. All it has on it is some very basic data. Basic data that that can be added to a 3GPP device via many avenues. For example, the future of SIMs could be using NFC or BT to securely handshake and transfer the data at carriers store or through a kiosk. Another is buying the code in a vending machine and inputting it the way your would a unique serial key for software.

Again, the integrated SIM isnt removing the SIM, just integrating, and its not going to make unlocked devices locked. Its just removing the superfluous physical plastic for data that can be more easily and conveniently moved in other ways in this 21.1 century C.E. A truly world traveler could potentially have dozens of of SIMs for various countries and carriers in his phone at all times and only needs to access the Settings to switch between them as he crosses borders.

This is an engineer speaking, but once the SIM is not physically inserted and removed, it's under software control what's in there. There is no force-eject that's reliable, there is no using of a plan that wasn't intended for the specific device you're using because the software will first verify the device type and refuse to program your embedded SIM if it's not to the carrier's and/or Apple's liking.

It will be also quite difficult to pull the SIM out of your dead phone and insert it into a friend's or stranger's phone to make a quick call until you have a chance to recharge or fix your own phone.

If Apple wants to make it easier for travelers, make bigger phones that accept multiple SIM and can be active on more than one net concurrently.
post #69 of 92
I just don't buy this. Apple has the power here- if the carriers want to stop paying the subsidies they are contracted to pay, then they are breaking a contract term that would be significant and material. There would be damages. I simply think Apple would say, "OK- so no subsidies- we'll see how long the market allows this. One of you idiots will break. And we will still sell the phones."

Losing the sim is a matter of internal space. If the carriers have a problem with it, tough crap. They can actually provide better value for their customers to keep their "relationships."

As for me, my relationship is with my iPhone. And I can't wait to dump ATT when Verizon gets it...
post #70 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Mark my words, it will happen and the cellphone market will be better for it.


1) They have thought of it, just as GSMA as also thought of it.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...fid_sales.html
2) Please dont use this forum to promote your blog site.



You misunderstand the concept of SIM. Apple and GSMA are not colluding to removing the SIM from devices, they are working on removing the need for a physical SIM card that takes up a great deal of space for its data size and functionality, and is a potential weak point for engineering. All this does is make it integrated, not disappear. Instead of having multiple SIM cards you have swap in and out, youd just use BT, NFC, or manual input to put in the 20 digit code that you can then switch easily via your settings.

So what stops someone from just guessing someone else's 20 digit number and using it?

Only person who has issues with SIMs is Apple, since their main obsession with anything they make is how thin it is rather than how well it works.
post #71 of 92
Complete crap article from start to finish.
post #72 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

So what stops someone from just guessing someone else's 20 digit number and using it?

Only person who has issues with SIMs is Apple, since their main obsession with anything they make is how thin it is rather than how well it works.

Fantasy, and absurd.
post #73 of 92
edit: Thanks pmz. I didn’t even notice their trollish hyperbole. Anyone who claims that Apple doesn’t focus on their product usability is surely just trolling.
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post #74 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Fantasy, and absurd.

Really?

No user replaceable battery. Other phones have no issues whatsoever having a door on the back to allow replacing the battery and sim card.

For Steve having a seem on the back of the phone tarnishes "perfection". For everyone else it means having to return to the apple store for a battery.

Edit: Eliminating the SIM altogether allows them to finally remove that last pesky "hole" in the phone. How can't you see this design theme, since every Mac book also has no observable cooling vents?

Lame. I took my phone, stuck in the SIM card and that was all it took to "activate" it. Installing itunes to do the same thing is absurd.

Oh, and the latest iphone 4 commercial "claims" it is the thinnest phone (it isn't). Saying they don't care about it is simply untrue.

Or isn't that the whole point of the mac book air commercial?
post #75 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

edit: Thanks pmz. I didnt even notice their trollish hyperbole. Anyone who claims that Apple doesnt focus on their product usability is surely just trolling.

Of course they do. That's why they gave away free bumpers for their retarded antenna design.

"You're just holding it wrong!" - Steve
post #76 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

This is an engineer speaking, but once the SIM is not physically inserted and removed, it's under software control what's in there. There is no force-eject that's reliable, there is no using of a plan that wasn't intended for the specific device you're using because the software will first verify the device type and refuse to program your embedded SIM if it's not to the carrier's and/or Apple's liking.

This is already the case. A locked phone is a locked phone.

Quote:
It will be also quite difficult to pull the SIM out of your dead phone and insert it into a friend's or stranger's phone to make a quick call until you have a chance to recharge or fix your own phone.

This is the only point where the user could lose out. If the phone itself dies (but they still have access to it) and the user didnt back up their data or have access to that backup then the couldnt simply pop the SIM out and put into a new device, but I bet that particular scenario is even less common than those that cried for a removable battery in their Mac notebook despite never before buying an extra battery.

Quote:
If Apple wants to make it easier for travelers, make bigger phones that accept multiple SIM and can be active on more than one net concurrently.

You want something akin to multi-CD changer in your cellphone. Thats just silly.
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post #77 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

I just don't buy this. Apple has the power here- if the carriers want to stop paying the subsidies they are contracted to pay, then they are breaking a contract term that would be significant and material. There would be damages.

What do you want to bet the contracts aren't strictly limited to existing models or traditional carrier practices (such as the use of SIM cards).
post #78 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestival View Post

Better watch out for those black UN helicopters -- I think the voices inside your head must be telling you they're coming for you (not to suggest actual insanity -- it's probably just the shrill droning of some Australian media magnate's shills :-)

is living how other people tell you to. Sorry, but being angry about an important topic doesn't make you crazy. Current policies may fit whatever agenda you personally have, but by and large they are a detriment to the American citizens. Or, maybe you're just apathetic.

It's not as if there aren't plenty of reputable news organizations writing about the TSA. And if you would allow your wife or child to be publicly groped or scanned you are a coward.

Truthfully, I don't have much to say much about politics in general, but these developments need to be broadcast everywhere, all of the time until people at least put some thought into the notion of putting pressure on their governments to let them know what they will and won't tolerate.
post #79 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

What do you want to bet the contracts aren't strictly limited to existing models or traditional carrier practices (such as the use of SIM cards).

So you mean that the contracts actually specify that the phone must use a carrier provided sim card?

I hadn't thought about that. I was more focusing on the fact that the contracts would specify the subsidies, and include multiple phone models year over year. But yeah- the idea that Apple maybe altering a material part of the contract if they stop using sims... interesting...
post #80 of 92
I don't believe it.

The carrier's can achieve exactly what they are trying to achieve with a paper contract that guarantees them x amount of dollars in monthly instalments.

All a virtual sim might achieve is stop asshole carriers from hindering your ability to access an additional carrier should you travel overseas.

Who cares if it isn't subsidised anyway? It's the total cost of ownership that matters. Is anyone dumb enough to go out and buy a "free" phone without considering how the wholesale price is built into the ongoing monthly fee.
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