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post #81 of 125
Wikileaks cables: key issues
Quote:
US and South Korean officials have discussed plans for a united Korea, should North Korea collapse.
The US ambassador to Seoul said South Korea would consider offering commercial incentives to China to "help salve" Beijing "concerns about living with a reunified Korea".

Quote:
North Korea's Kim Jong-il is a "flabby old chap" suffering from trauma from a stroke, while Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is referred to as "Hitler".
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post #82 of 125
China calls for emergency meeting on North Korea is rejected by Japan and the United States. As U.S. drills begin in Yellow Sea, as China's talks proposal gets cold response from South Korea.

Interactive: The Koreas clash, by LA Times.

Koreas' sea border area seen as a recipe for war
Quote:
The origins of the attack can be traced to a sea border drawn at the close of the Korean War, nearly 60 years ago.
As the conflict ended in a truce, the U.S.-led U.N. Command divided the Yellow Sea without Pyongyang's consent, cutting North Korea off from rich fishing waters and boxing in a crucial deep-water port, a move that clearly favored the South.
North Korea has bitterly contested the line ever since, arguing that it should run farther south. But for Seoul, accepting such a line would endanger fishing around five South Korean islands and hamper access to its port at Incheon.

As part of long term solution to the situation in Korea, could a consideration of transferring of the islands to NK be in the bid for peace? Should the long term solution for peace include UN control of the islands, with eventual transfer to NK conditioned upon their compliance with dismantling their nuclear facilities, nuclear reactors monitored internationally, depleted uranium to be sent to China, downsizing both NK and SK military, NK to have monitored elections, a permanent peact treaty to replace the Armistice of 1953 .....your thoughts.

Yeonpyeong attack uniting South Korean public around harsher policy toward North
Quote:
.Lee took office in 2008 vowing to end the decade-long "sunshine policy" of his two predecessors, which increased political and economic ties with North Korea as a way of reducing military tension on the Korean peninsula. But Lee found the Korean public deeply divided, with little appetite among many for a return to a more confrontational approach......
The split largely reflected what analysts and average Koreans agreed was a generational divide. Older Koreans, especially those who fought in the Korean War or had a living memory of it, were vastly more inclined to view North Korea as a hostile enemy to be confronted. Young people, particularly those in their 20s who came of age during the sunshine policy, had no interest in a conflict and were just as inclined to disbelieve their own political leaders as to blame North Korea.
But North Korea's Nov. 23 attack on Yeonpyeong island, which killed two civilians as well as two soldiers, might be narrowing that divide....
Quote:
"The older generation was educated with the anti-Communist focus," Byun said. "But people in their 20s, we've gone to high school and university under the government's sunshine policy. I think the gap was very vivid during the Cheonan sinking. But the country is unified now."

Disillusioned South Korea weighs response to North Korean flareup
Quote:
South Koreas President Lee Myung-bak, in an address to the nation Monday, denounced North Koreas attack on a remote island in the Yellow Sea nearly one week ago as a crime against humanity.....
While the war of words raged between North and South Korea, the flotilla, led by the aircraft carrier George Washington, conducted what a South Korean military spokesman said were high intensity war games featuring mock attacks and target practice on a 24-hour basis.
The exercises are to wind up Wednesday, but concerns about the will of the South Koreans and the Americans to defend the South effectively were sure to persist. Its just rhetoric, says Chang Ki-tak, a retired businessman, after listening to Lees speech. It was a hard-line speech, but anybody can say those things.
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post #83 of 125
Leaked Cables Depict a World Guessing About North Korea

Quote:
The cables about North Korea some emanating from Seoul, some from Beijing, many based on interviews with government officials, and others with scholars, defectors and other experts are long on educated guesses and short on facts, illustrating why their subject is known as the Black Hole of Asia. Because they are State Department documents, not intelligence reports, they do not include the most secret American assessments, or the American militarys plans in case North Korea disintegrates or lashes out.

They contain loose talk and confident predictions of the end of the family dynasty that has ruled North Korea for 65 years. Those discussions were fueled by a rash of previously undisclosed defections of ranking North Korean diplomats, who secretly sought refuge in the South.

But they were also influenced by a remarkable period of turmoil inside North Korea, including an economic crisis set off by the governments failed effort to revalue its currency and sketchy intelligence suggesting that the North Korean military might not abide the rise of Mr. Kims inexperienced young son, Kim Jong-un, who was recently made a four-star general despite having no military experience.

The cables reveal that in private, the Chinese, long seen as North Koreas last protectors against the West, occasionally provide the Obama administration with colorful assessments of the state of play in North Korea. Chinese officials themselves sometimes even laugh about the frustrations of dealing with North Korean paranoia.......

Quote:
The cables also show that almost as soon as the Obama administration came to office, it started raising alarms that the North was buying up components to enrich uranium, opening a second route for it to build nuclear weapons. (Until now, the Norths arsenal has been based on its production of plutonium, but its production capacity has been halted.)

In June 2009, at a lunch in Beijing shortly after the North Korean nuclear test, two senior Chinese Foreign Ministry officials reported that Chinas experts believed the enrichment was only in its initial phases. In fact, based on what the North Koreans revealed this month, an industrial-scale enrichment plant was already under construction. It was apparently missed by both American and Chinese intelligence services.

The cables make it clear that the South Koreans believe that internal tensions in the North have reached a boiling point. In January of this year, South Koreas foreign minister, who later resigned, reported to a visiting American official that the South Koreans saw an increasingly chaotic situation in the North.......

WikiLeaks: China weary of North Korea behaving like 'spoiled child'

Quote:
New documents posted on the websites of the Guardian and The New York Times suggest Chinese officials are losing patience with long-time ally North Korea. Senior figures in Beijing have even described the regime in the North as behaving like a "spoiled child."

According to cables obtained by WikiLeaks, South Korea's then vice foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, said earlier this year that senior Chinese officials (whose names are redacted in the cables) had told him they believed Korea should be reunified under Seoul's control, and that this view was gaining ground with the leadership in Beijing.......

Chun, who has since become South Korea's National Security Adviser, dismissed the prospect of China's military intervention in the event of a North Korean collapse, noting that "China's strategic economic interests now lie with the United States, Japan, and South Korea -- not North Korea."

This might prove to be an interesting proposition. China boots out the Kim Dynasty, forces NK to realign with SK for transition to unified country. US forces kept below the 38th with eventual withdrawal. Unified Korea non-aligned with US or China except for economic ties.....

SK's economy would take a downturn---worse than W. Germany when reunification took place. Would it be worth it? NK traditionally was the stronger with more industrial potential and resources than SK. Long term more stability in that part of Asia. Removal of all nukes from Korea.
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post #84 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

They almost certainly should have. But when you're the biggest kid on the block you do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want.

We absolutely should not have.
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post #85 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

We absolutely should not have.

You're right, because doing things that could potentially escalate hostilities is the best approach.

What we really ought to be doing is getting our troops out of Korea, bring them home and remove one more reason for us to become militarily involved in the affairs of another region or country. Of course this will never happen because on the right we have a bunch of people who feel we need to be the policeman of the world and on the left we have a bunch of people who only hate wars and military intervention when the guy sitting in the elliptical office has an R next to his name.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #86 of 125
Cut and run. Isolate ourselves. Head in sand. LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU diplomacy. Hope, Change No we can't.
post #87 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Cut and run. Isolate ourselves. Head in sand.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

What are you, the jimmac of the right?

I love it how when someone proposes a non-interventionist, militarily neutral (not isolationist) policy where other people's sons and daughters are sent off to fight wars...someone on the right inevitably implies that you're an ignorant naive coward.

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post #88 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're right, because doing things that could potentially escalate hostilities is the best approach.

What we really ought to be doing is getting our troops out of Korea, bring them home and remove one more reason for us to become militarily involved in the affairs of another region or country. Of course this will never happen because on the right we have a bunch of people who feel we need to be the policeman of the world and on the left we have a bunch of people who only hate wars and military intervention when the guy sitting in the elliptical office has an R next to his name.

That might be the biggest strawman in the history of AI. I wasn't addressing our troop presence in South Korea. I wasn't addressing our questionable role as policemen of the world (questionable as to whether or not that's what we should be).

No, I was only addressing the current situation. We have to deal with the situation as we find it, not as we'd like it to be. We DO have troops there, and we DO have a military presence in the region. Given that, we had a highly provocative act by DPRK (some would say multiple acts of war). We need to send a message of strength and show our solidarity with the ROK. We need to demonstrate that if KJI goes too far, there will be a strong military response. He should have no doubt that restarting the war with the South would lead to the decimation of his country and him losing power.

Now, regarding our presence: I agree that we should not have troops in the ROK. I see no reason for it. If they are attacked, our forces will be overrun anyway. We will need to rely on on our airpower to win any conflict with the North, so we might as well not even have a permanent ground presence there.
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post #89 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That might be the biggest strawman in the history of AI.

Probably not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I wasn't addressing our troop presence in South Korea. I wasn't addressing our questionable role as policemen of the world (questionable as to whether or not that's what we should be).

But you cannot address the current situation without discussing these others because they are closely related and tightly interwoven. The war games exercises with Korea are directly related to our troop presence in Korea and our chosen role as world policeman. These activities are happening to show North Korea something. To deny this is naive at best and disingenuous at worst.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

No, I was only addressing the current situation. We have to deal with the situation as we find it, not as we'd like it to be. We DO have troops there, and we DO have a military presence in the region. Given that, we had a highly provocative act by DPRK (some would say multiple acts of war). We need to send a message of strength and show our solidarity with the ROK. We need to demonstrate that if KJI goes too far, there will be a strong military response.

And what I'm saying is that we need to begin thinking about changing the situation so we no longer get dragged into this kind of shit. Not just in Korea but elsewhere also. The US government's imperialistic military nature is making America less safe over all and risks bankrupting the country as well. We need to give very serious consideration to a doctrine of armed neutrality and non-interventionism. Not isolationism as some falsely claim that this means.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He should have no doubt that restarting the war with the South would lead to the decimation of his country and him losing power.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #90 of 125
U.S. steps up pressure on China to rein in North Korea
Quote:
In response to the North Korean moves and apparent Chinese acquiescence, Washington is moving to redefine its relationship with South Korea and Japan, potentially creating an anti-China bloc in Northeast Asia that officials say they don't want but may need.....

US hosts talks over North Korea
Quote:
The US, South Korea and Japan are to hold talks in Washington shortly on ways to deal with North Korea.
China's president earlier warned US President Barack Obama that tensions on the Korean peninsula could get out of control if not properly handled.
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post #91 of 125
US commander urges China to act on North Korea
Quote:
China has a "unique responsibility" to tackle the issue of North Korea, the top US military commander has said.

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post #92 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Probably not.




But you cannot address the current situation without discussing these others because they are closely related and tightly interwoven. The war games exercises with Korea are directly related to our troop presence in Korea and our chosen role as world policeman. These activities are happening to show North Korea something. To deny this is naive at best and disingenuous at worst.




And what I'm saying is that we need to begin thinking about changing the situation so we no longer get dragged into this kind of shit. Not just in Korea but elsewhere also. The US government's imperialistic military nature is making America less safe over all and risks bankrupting the country as well. We need to give very serious consideration to a doctrine of armed neutrality and non-interventionism. Not isolationism as some falsely claim that this means.






We're arguing two different points. I agree we should consider changes in policy to prevent us from getting involved in "this shit" in the future. But the fact of the matter is we are where we are, so to speak. We have thousands of troops in the ROK, and we have made obligations to protect them in the event of attack. Should we be poking the DPRK with a stick? Of course not. But we're not doing the provoking here...the DPRK is. They sank a ROK military vessel and launched an unprovoked attack on their territory. Do we just hope for the best and let it go? We've been treating Kim Jong Mentally Ill that way for a long time. All it gets us is more tantrums a few months or years later. It's like a toddler seeing what he/she can get away with. Said toddler gets everything he wants every time. "Just shut the kid up!" says Dad. So toddler becomes a spoiled brat. But now, the toddler has become a teenager with nuclear weapons. He's going to do what worked for him before...act like a little shit. At some point he may need to be smacked in the face.
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post #93 of 125
US blending military and diplomatic strategies to stall North Korea
Quote:
The US has hit upon a strategy of mingling diplomatic appeals with military tough talk in attempts to restrain North Korea from staging attacks on South Korean targets.

That much appears clear from the latest pronouncement of Washingtons two top representatives in South Korea, the US ambassador and the commander of US forces, although how theyre thinking of following through on this approach remains unclear.

Ambassador Kathleen Stephens, in line with a US diplomatic offensive ongoing since the North Korean artillery barrage on an island in the Yellow Sea on Nov. 23, clearly believes China holds the cards when it comes to getting North Korea to refrain from future episodes.

The ROK, Japan, China and the US need to come up with long term solutions to this situation. Perhaps instead of an armistice, there can be a peace treaty. A war in Korea would escalate involving China, Japan and the US.
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post #94 of 125
North Korea threatens retaliation for South Korean military drill
Quote:
North Korea has threatened violent retaliation if the South goes through with a live-fire artillery drill this weekend. The South is planning to hold the training exercise on Yeonpyeong Island, the scene of the North Korean bombardment on Nov. 23 that left four South Koreans dead.

With tensions on the Korean peninsula at a peak, the Souths persistence in conducting the drill is being seen as a show of force to the North, but also as needlessly provocative given the tense state of affairs.
Quote:
It is appalling. If it was a bona fide need for artillery practice they have plenty of islands in the Western sea, Leonid Petrov, a professor at the University of Sydney who specializes in Korea, told the Guardian. This is simply sending a message that the South is putting pressure on the North but at the same time refuses to negotiate.

The ROK may be prodding NK too hard. Although ROK has to stand firm, they shouldn't be pushing too hard and force NK to react. China needs to rein in NK, even Japan is changing it's military posture away from Russia...their long traditional enemy....see below.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #95 of 125
Russia 'concerned' by South Korea drill on Yeonpyeong
Quote:
Russia has summoned the South Korean and US envoys to express "deep concern" about upcoming live-fire military exercises on an island shelled by North Korea last month.

If Russia has any influence with NK, they should also be applying pressure to NK to stop their insanity....but it's been a long time since NK and Russia were close allies.

Japan defence review warns of China's military might
Quote:
Japan has unveiled sweeping changes to its national defence polices, boosting its southern forces in response to neighbouring China's military rise.

Japan's dispute with China over some South China Sea islands is making them aware of China's growing military strength. There needs to be closer relations between Japan, ROK and China over handling NK. China can handle NK without military force. This might ease tensions between China and Japan if they also enter into talks about the disputed islands.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #96 of 125
North Korea's Human Rights Violations!!!



North Korea has a long list of human rights violations, however this was not one of them, The 1968 photo was taken by Eddie Adams during the Tet Offensive in Saigon, South Viet Nam. More at Nguyễn Ngọc Loan
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post #97 of 125
US envoy Bill Richardson warns of Korea tinderbox
Quote:
An unofficial US envoy visiting North Korea has warned that the situation on the peninsula is a "tinderbox".
The envoy, Bill Richardson, made the comments after talks with officials in Pyongyang, whom he asked to exercise "extreme restraint".
He said he had urged them to let South Korea go ahead with planned live-firing exercises on an island which was shelled by the North last month.
Pyongyang has been threatening to strike back if the drill goes ahead.

The ROK should delay its plan for military exercises and get China and NK to enter into serious dialogue with a possibility of negotiating a peace treaty.

China deeply worried over Korean crisis, calls for dialogue
Quote:
China today said it was deeply worried over the deteriorating security situation on the Korean peninsula and called for immediate resumption of talks between North Korea and South Korea to de-escalate tensions.
China is deeply worried about the situation on the Korean Peninsula, which is extremely precarious, highly complicated and sensitive, Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Zhijun said in a statement here......

China needs to directly engage NK to stop its aggressive acts and to have NK start dismantling its nuclear facilities. China, ROK, Japan can help NK to develop its hydroelectric power and sell what it doesn't use to China and ROK.
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post #98 of 125
The saber rattling of the Obama regime will force North Korea into a defensive first strike.
post #99 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

The saber rattling of the Obama regime will force North Korea into a defensive first strike.

US needs to get out of this mess. Let the South nuke the North if they really want to get into it.

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post #100 of 125
Yea great. Right when things get tricky the US cuts and runs. If the US wanted out it should have been working on that for the past 50 years. To do it last minute weakens the US.
post #101 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yea great. Right when things get tricky the US cuts and runs. If the US wanted out it should have been working on that for the past 50 years. To do it last minute weakens the US.

Who cares? "Weakens the US"? Ridiculous. Having military personnel everywhere on the planet draining the resources of our country... THAT weakens the US!

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post #102 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Who cares? "Weakens the US"? Ridiculous. Having military personnel everywhere on the planet draining the resources of our country... THAT weakens the US!

It may be best to be an isolationist country but showing the world that the US gets going when the going gets tough weakens the US and encourages the despots and dictators of the world to get going.

Plus you can't just leave your friends high and dry. If leaving that part of the world is a good plan then the US should work on a 20 year plan with South Korea and Japan so they can prepare to take on their full defense without US intervention.
post #103 of 125
The problem with the Korean situation is that no-one wants it to end.

Korea's industrial sector worries about the costs of reunification, The U.S. doesn't want to lose an important military foothold in Asia, China worries that a reunified Korea will align with the U.S. and leave it exposed right on its own border.

That a dictator rules starving millions by brute force is almost forgotten in the matter.
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post #104 of 125
North Korea 'will not hit back' over Yeonpyeong drills
Quote:
North Korea says it will not retaliate despite "reckless provocations" from the South, which held live-fire drills on the flashpoint island of Yeonpyeong.

DPRK says "feel no need" to react to South Korean artillery drill
Quote:
PYONGYANG, Dec. 20 (Xinhua) -- The Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) said Monday that it did not "feel any need" to react against the South Korea's artillery drill off the west coast of the Korean Peninsula, state media reported.

NK blinked.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #105 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Who cares? "Weakens the US"? Ridiculous. Having military personnel everywhere on the planet draining the resources of our country... THAT weakens the US!

How does being involved and honoring your treaty agreements with your allies weaken the US? The ROK sent troops to Iraq, Viet Nam and Afghanistan...whether you agree with the US involvement in those countries...the ROK backed its ally.

While IMHO NK will not deliberately start a war, however there is a chance that they may inadvertently start one. This was the closest to a direct military confrontation. Most of the younger population have grown up during peace and did not want were not interested in ROK-NK relations. However, the present situation has aligned the younger population to support harsher reactions against NK if future incidents occur.

US withdrawal will be seen by NK as a sing of weakness and encourage them to further their aggression. The big unknown is Kim Jung Un...Kim III.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #106 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

It may be best to be an isolationist country but showing the world that the US gets going when the going gets tough weakens the US and encourages the despots and dictators of the world to get going.

Plus you can't just leave your friends high and dry. If leaving that part of the world is a good plan then the US should work on a 20 year plan with South Korea and Japan so they can prepare to take on their full defense without US intervention.

The US is working on this, but will remain committed to the region. What the US doesn't want is a destabilized eastern Asia.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #107 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The problem with the Korean situation is that no-one wants it to end.

Korea's industrial sector worries about the costs of reunification, The U.S. doesn't want to lose an important military foothold in Asia, China worries that a reunified Korea will align with the U.S. and leave it exposed right on its own border.

That a dictator rules starving millions by brute force is almost forgotten in the matter.

The problem is more how to end the armistice with a workable treaty. China might agree with a reunified Korea if Korea is more neutral. China needs to act on NK before they further develop their nuclear capabilities....otherwise they may realize too late that they have created a Frankenstein's monster.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #108 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

The problem is more how to end the armistice with a workable treaty. China might agree with a reunified Korea if Korea is more neutral. China needs to act on NK before they further develop their nuclear capabilities....otherwise they may realize too late that they have created a Frankenstein's monster.

Because they are dealing with a powder keg, even China realizes their influence has limits on N Korea.

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post #109 of 125
Thread Starter 

No way to tell why they blinked though. The whole thing might have been to get everybody all up in arms (literally). they may have planned this all along. However, given their seemingly abrupt change of course, it's likely that either China said "knock it off before you start WWIII" or the US said "Fire one more round at the South without provocation and we'll blow you to kingdom come, remove you from power, then hand the keys to China and peace out."
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post #110 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Russia 'concerned' by South Korea drill on Yeonpyeong


If Russia has any influence with NK, they should also be applying pressure to NK to stop their insanity....but it's been a long time since NK and Russia were close allies.

This is the kind of thing that infuriates me. Concerned over the ROK's military drills...in their own territory...while being threatened and even attack by the DPRK. WTF? Just shows that the cold war never really ended...it just went on pause for a decade or so. Stal---I mean Putin is apparently interested in sticking it to any US ally. It's like he's playing a game of "Risk."

Japan defence review warns of China's military might

Japan's dispute with China over some South China Sea islands is making them aware of China's growing military strength. There needs to be closer relations between Japan, ROK and China over handling NK. China can handle NK without military force. This might ease tensions between China and Japan if they also enter into talks about the disputed islands.

China's another one. They are like the Soviets with more prosperity and no satellite states. Let's not forget, China is a communist country. Has anyone noticed we're not talking about that anymore? They have major military ambitions. Their goal is to have military parity with the US by 2050. At this rate, it will be more like 2020. Very concerning...not because of their rise, but because of their system.
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post #111 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Because they are dealing with a powder keg, even China realizes their influence has limits on N Korea.

Not quite true. Even the Glorious Leader Kim Jung Il went to the PRC to show off his heir apparent...Kim Jung Un. If China refuses to recognize the transfer of power what is NK going to do?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #112 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

China's another one. They are like the Soviets with more prosperity and no satellite states. Let's not forget, China is a communist country. Has anyone noticed we're not talking about that anymore? They have major military ambitions. Their goal is to have military parity with the US by 2050. At this rate, it will be more like 2020. Very concerning...not because of their rise, but because of their system.

While I agree with you about China's rising military presence we still need to engage them to rein in NK. We cannot ignore China like we did in the 50's-60's. This is another reason why the US needs to keep ties in this region. Japan and the ROK can help balance the power in Asia. Viet Nam in the south is also a rising economic power...who have viewed China as their traditional enemy...will help buffer China's ambitions.

China's Naval Modernization should be a major concern of nations of that region. China, other than a brief time during the Ming Dynasty, China has never been a naval power. What will happen in the region when they become one is anyone's guess.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #113 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101123...20101123092327

Very concerning. This would seem to be more than a "skirmish." Then again, the response from the US, China and the South itself seems to indicate the primary focus in lack of escalation. My question is...how many times is this going to happen before it triggers a full-scale war? One has to wonder about China's role as well. While they are regarded as the North's only real ally, I can't imagine they would tolerate an invasion of the South. Perhaps that is the only thing stopping it from happening.

I can tell you deep down China is starting to think of North Korea as that idiotic "friend" of yours that comes out with your other friends to bars and clubs and always ends up causing problems.

North Korea needs to be sorted out once and for all. Seriously. Left-wing approach would be to extend the olive branch and say, look, time for change, we will help you usher in a new life... Surely North Korea's current path is patently unsustainable. Right-wing approach would be invasion and nuclear war, which would... suck.

But this Korea situation needs to be sorted out. South Korea is a major political, economic, social and monetary force today. North Korea is like a wooden hut on the doorstep of South Korea's skyscraper. Entropy dictates some sh*t is going to go down!
post #114 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

China's another one. They are like the Soviets with more prosperity and no satellite states. Let's not forget, China is a communist country. Has anyone noticed we're not talking about that anymore? They have major military ambitions. Their goal is to have military parity with the US by 2050. At this rate, it will be more like 2020. Very concerning...not because of their rise, but because of their system.

China though is getting very addicted to capitalism. To think that they could make steps back towards more communist ideals is.... ambitious. Of course they want military might to go along with economic might. They have zero assurances no one is going to mess with them militarily. Dialogue, gradually opening borders and trade, all important at this stage. Pressuring them on human rights and dissidents should be continued.
post #115 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I can tell you deep down China is starting to think of North Korea as that idiotic "friend" of yours that comes out with your other friends to bars and clubs and always ends up causing problems.

North Korea needs to be sorted out once and for all. Seriously. Left-wing approach would be to extend the olive branch and say, look, time for change, we will help you usher in a new life... Surely North Korea's current path is patently unsustainable. Right-wing approach would be invasion and nuclear war, which would... suck.

But this Korea situation needs to be sorted out. South Korea is a major political, economic, social and monetary force today. North Korea is like a wooden hut on the doorstep of South Korea's skyscraper. Entropy dictates some sh*t is going to go down!

Excellent post! I love your idiotic friend analogy.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #116 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Right-wing approach would be invasion and nuclear war, which would... suck

I though Right-wing approach was to ignore it completely and scream louder and louder about Iran.

Has been so far anyway....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #117 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

North Korea needs to be sorted out once and for all. Seriously. Left-wing approach would be to extend the olive branch and say, look, time for change, we will help you usher in a new life... Surely North Korea's current path is patently unsustainable. Right-wing approach would be invasion and nuclear war, which would... suck.

But this Korea situation needs to be sorted out. South Korea is a major political, economic, social and monetary force today. North Korea is like a wooden hut on the doorstep of South Korea's skyscraper. Entropy dictates some sh*t is going to go down!

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I though Right-wing approach was to ignore it completely and scream louder and louder about Iran.

Has been so far anyway....

You're both wrong. The right wing approach would be to not even be involved with the defense of South Korea but be more than willing to sell them plenty of weapons to protect themselves. Then if there were a war they would be more than happy to provide loans to pay for materials they would also sell to them to rebuild from said war.

That's called the mind my own business and profit approach and it is what the U.S. did prior to WWII. What it has done since then is Pax Americana which is a leftist approach no matter who runs it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #118 of 125
yup, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were left wing wars started by that bastion of Left-wing idealogy George W Bush and his left-wing war hawk buddies.
post #119 of 125
What's North Korea's next move? Perhaps a nuclear weapons test.
Quote:
North Korea appears more likely now to stage another long-range missile test or underground nuclear explosion rather than attacking South Korean targets, according to security experts in South Korea
Quote:
"Theyre not going to do anything immediately, says Lee Jong-min, dean of Yonsei Universitys Graduate School of International Studies, but Im fairly convinced theyll conduct another nuclear test maybe early next year.

NK always seeking attention will use its development of nuclear weapons and delivery systems as a political pawn to gain even more attention that cannot be ignored any longer. The big ? is who will govern NK after Kim Jung Il passes...right now China seems to be going along with Kim Jung Un....but if Un is like Il China may look to other options.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #120 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I can tell you deep down China is starting to think of North Korea as that idiotic "friend" of yours that comes out with your other friends to bars and clubs and always ends up causing problems.

NK is more like the spoiled child, of the Old Stalinist Soviet Union who later shifted to the Chinese sphere of influence as China became more powerful. China never disciplined NK and was willing to use NK as a buffer between the US backed ROK. Now NK is a troubled teen that China needs to rein in. If NK develops nuclear weapons and has a delivery system, China will be dealing with a rebellious teen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

North Korea needs to be sorted out once and for all. Seriously. Left-wing approach would be to extend the olive branch and say, look, time for change, we will help you usher in a new life... Surely North Korea's current path is patently unsustainable. Right-wing approach would be invasion and nuclear war, which would... suck.

The US still needs to be engaged in the region. Leaving it will destabilize the region. Both China and NK will view this as the US lack of interest in honoring its alliances in the region...Japan, ROK and Taiwan. The US can still scale down its military presence in ROK and Japan, but they need to get assurances from them that they will be able to use bases in times of need.

A war in the region would be devastating to the region and would also effect the US economy as well. Civilian casualties will be in the 100K's

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

But this Korea situation needs to be sorted out. South Korea is a major political, economic, social and monetary force today. North Korea is like a wooden hut on the doorstep of South Korea's skyscraper. Entropy dictates some sh*t is going to go down!

What can happen is that China needs to encourage change from the Kim Dynasty. Force free elections in NK. Japan, China, SK and the US can start economic development in NK. NK has natural resources and can develop their hydroelectric potential...selling the excess power to China and ROK. Once NK starts economic development, reunification is more plausible. Although the ROK has always wanted it, it feared the consequences and impacts on its economy.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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