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What The BLEEP!

post #1 of 47
Thread Starter 
This thread is for particularily surprising or disturbing news.

Here's a cracker-

"British-based men of Afghan origin are spending months at a time in Afghanistan fighting Nato forces before returning to the UK, the Guardian has learned. They also send money to the Taliban.

A Taliban fighter in Dhani-Ghorri in northern Afghanistan last month told the Guardian he lived most of the time in east London, but came to Afghanistan for three months of the year for combat.

"I work as a minicab driver," said the man, who has the rank of a mid-level Taliban commander. "I make good money there [in the UK], you know. But these people are my friends and my family and it's my duty to come to fight the jihad with them."

"There are many people like me in London," he added. "We collect money for the jihad all year and come and fight if we can."

His older brother, a senior cleric or mawlawi who also fought in Dhani-Ghorri, lives in London as well.

Intelligence officials have long suspected that British Muslims travel to Afghanistan and Pakistan each year to train with extremist groups.

Last year it was reported that RAF spy planes operating in Helmand in southern Afghanistan had detected strong Yorkshire and Birmingham accents on fighters using radios and telephones. They apparently spoke the main Afghan languages of Dari and Pashtu, but lapsed into English when they were lost for the right words. The threat was deemed sufficiently serious that spy planes have patrolled British skies in the hope of picking up the same voice signatures of the fighters after their return to the UK.

The dead body of an insurgent who had an Aston Villa tattoo has also been discovered in southern Afghanistan.

British military officials say there have been no recent reports of British Taliban in Helmand in southern Afghanistan and that the overwhelming majority of foreign fighters are Pakistanis. Not since John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban, was captured in late 2001, has the US admitted to having successfully captured an insurgent from a western country.

In the main US-run prison near Bagram airfield, there are just 50 "third country nationals" being held, a spokeswoman said.

"Most of these are Pakistani, with small numbers from other countries in the region," she said.

According to a senior officer at the National Directorate of Security, Afghanistan's equivalent of MI5, foreign fighters tend to be Arabs, Chechens, Pakistanis or from central Asia's former Soviet republics such as Tajikistan and Uzbekistan."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...an-afghanistan
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #2 of 47
Wait, why is that surprising again?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #3 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Wait, why is that surprising again?

If there are quote "lots" of these fighters that's news to me. I could imagine that a few could get away with it. I'm now very curious how many really are.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #4 of 47
I don't get it? What's the issue???

Not surprising and seems fair enough.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #5 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't get it? What's the issue???

Not surprising and seems fair enough.

Do you really believe it's "fair enough"?

I think it's disgusting. They're f'ing cowards.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #6 of 47
HS, this isn't another one of these, Iq.......is it?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #7 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

HS, this isn't another one of these, Iq.......is it?

I think it's highly likely that the Guardian on an issue this important would have considered the source credible.

The people who are doing this are going to fuck up the lives of plenty of people here for decades to come.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #8 of 47
I'm not sure I'm following where your outrage is. Is it that you are opposed to people actively supporting and funding a group they believe in fighting against invading and occupying forces in a foreign (native/home country for these supporters) country?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Do you really believe it's "fair enough"?

I think it's disgusting. They're f'ing cowards.

Cowards? Going into a war-zone to fight against overwhelming force and most likely die?

Guess they should be brave and stay at home working 9-5 and buying plasma TVs.



One thing I don't get: you disagree with them...fine...but why does that make them cowards? Same with terrorists.... it;s just because they can't be labelled as 'brave' for political purposes.

Oth, anyone who is shit-scared who happens to die for their country is a 'brave hero'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm not sure I'm following where your outrage is. Is it that you are opposed to people actively supporting and funding a group they believe in fighting against invading and occupying forces in a foreign (native/home country for these supporters) country?

If you don't like what your military is doing you campaign peacefully to change things. They don't think they can win that battle so they go to slaughter their own countrymen under the protection of opposing forces. They're cowards and they're throwing shit in the faces of all those who are trying their best to change things peacefully. The damage that they will cause will be immense.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #11 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If you don't like what your military is doing you campaign peacefully to change things. They don't think they can win that battle so they go to slaughter their own countrymen under the protection of opposing forces. They're cowards and they're throwing shit in the faces of all those who are trying their best to change things peacefully. The damage that they will cause will be immense.

How are they cowards?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #12 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If you don't like what your military is doing you campaign peacefully to change things.

Well I certainly agree that all peaceful approaches should be exhausted first before resorting to violent means. However, if the violence is being forced upon you, you may have no choice but to fight back. That's what it sounds like is happening here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They don't think they can win that battle so they go to slaughter their own countrymen under the protection of opposing forces.

You lost me here. Who are "slaughtering their own countrymen under the protection of opposing forces?" I'm now a little confused.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #13 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Cowards? Going into a war-zone to fight against overwhelming force and most likely die?

Guess they should be brave and stay at home working 9-5 and buying plasma TVs.



One thing I don't get: you disagree with them...fine...but why does that make them cowards? Same with terrorists.... it;s just because they can't be labelled as 'brave' for political purposes.

Oth, anyone who is shit-scared who happens to die for their country is a 'brave hero'.

Cowardice isn't always defined by whether you kill someone or not.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #14 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

How are they cowards?

This is a good question. I mean would it also be considered "cowardly" to order remote control predator drones to bomb and destroy people (often times innocent civilians) in a foreign country from the comfort of your well-protected command bunker (or even your elliptically shaped office)?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #15 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well I certainly agree that all peaceful approaches should be exhausted first before resorting to violent means. However, if the violence is being forced upon you, you may have no choice but to fight back. That's what it sounds like is happening here.




You lost me here. Who are "slaughtering their own countrymen under the protection of opposing forces?" I'm now a little confused.

Fighting back by killing your own countrymen will make things worse not better. But sure they clearly disagree at the moment.

I'm talking about the people who travel there to kill Brits and American's.


Edit- sorry I think it was confusing to use "opposing forces" in my earlier post. I meant the forces fighting the Brits and American's.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #16 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This is a good question. I mean would it also be considered "cowardly" to order remote control predator drones to bomb and destroy people (often times innocent civilians) in a foreign country from the comfort of your well-protected command bunker (or even your elliptically shaped office)?

It shouldn't be, but no doubt some people will always think it is.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #17 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Fighting back by killing your own countrymen will make things worse not better. But sure they clearly disagree at the moment.

I'm talking about the people who travel there to kill Brits and American's.

I think I'm starting to get the "killing your own countrymen" thing:

You're saying that Afghanis who live in the UK (and may be British citizens) are bad people for supporting other Afghanis in Afghanistan against invasion and occupation by US and UK soldiers?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #18 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It shouldn't be, but no doubt some people will always think it is.

I want to make sure I am fully and clearly understanding you.

You seem to be saying that sitting in a well-protected command bunker (or elliptically shaped office) and sending out un-manned killing machines to kill people (some of which are innocent civilians) in a foreign country is not "cowardly?"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #19 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I think I'm starting to get the "killing your own countrymen" thing:

You're saying that Afghanis who live in the UK (and may be British citizens) are bad people for supporting other Afghanis in Afghanistan against invasion and occupation by US and UK soldiers?

If by support you're talking about killing our forces yes. If by support you mean peacefully to end the war, no.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #20 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If by support you're talking about killing our forces yes. If by support you mean peacefully to end the war, no.

Got it now. So it's okay for US/UK troops to go into a foreign country and kill people and perpetrate violence, but it's not okay for those people to fight back. This seems to summarize your position. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #21 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I want to make sure I am fully and clearly understanding you.

You seem to be saying that sitting in a well-protected command bunker (or elliptically shaped office) and sending out un-manned killing machines to kill people (some of which are innocent civilians) in a foreign country is not "cowardly?"

There's nothing cowardly about it. I'm against these attacks in many cases but not all though.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #22 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There's nothing cowardly about it. I'm against these attacks in many cases but not all though.

OK. Well we seem to have a clear view of your position on these things. In summary it sounds like:

Not-cowardly: Going into a foreign country and killing people and perpetrating all sorts of violence and military occupation for a long period of time, including remote-control killing from the comfort of your easy chair.

Cowardly: Supporting your native countrymen with time and money to defend against the above actions.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #23 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Got it now. So it's okay for US/UK troops to go into a foreign country and kill people and perpetrate violence, but it's not okay for those people to fight back. This seems to summarize your position. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No it certainly isn't ok. I'm against these wars as lots of other people are. These fighters are fucked up angry losers who will create far more harm than good for the people here in the UK. If you disagree fine, I'm done.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No it certainly isn't ok.

All I can say is wow. Just...wow.

I wonder if you'd have the same view if someone was attacking you and your friends, neighbors and families where they live. I suspect not. And we have a word for that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #25 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

All I can say is wow. Just...wow.

I wonder if you'd have the same view if someone was attacking you and your friends, neighbors and families where they live. I suspect not. And we have a word for that.

Let me just clarify my earlier post. I'm talking about people who live in the UK whobare British citizens. Chow.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #26 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Let me just clarify my earlier post. I'm talking about people who live in the UK whobare British citizens. Chow.

So you think and expect their allegiance to a geo-political governmental entity should be greater than their allegiance to their ethnic ancestral people (and probably families and friends)?

Let me ask some more questions: Where are you from? It is clearly US or UK based on your use of "our" in the above posts. But without giving too much personal detail where do you live? US? What state or metro area? Do most of your family and friends live in the same general area? Are you a citizen of that area (US, state, etc.)?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #27 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Fighting back by killing your own countrymen will make things worse not better. But sure they clearly disagree at the moment.

I'm talking about the people who travel there to kill Brits and American's.


Edit- sorry I think it was confusing to use "opposing forces" in my earlier post. I meant the forces fighting the Brits and American's.

I think where you've lost your understanding is the belief that these are your countrymen. They aren't and of course noting this will cause these very same folks who are actively undermining your country to call you racist for pointing it out.

They are people who have decided they are culturally, citizenship-wise, etc members of another country. The things they take from your country including jobs, benefits, whatever, are just there to be taken because you are dumb enough to give them. Multiculturalism notes that they are entitled to their culture regardless of how it is viewed with regard to your culture and if part of their culture involves destruction of your culture, then that is your fault and to be tolerated as well. If you don't care to tolerate it then of course you are a racist. If you think they are being racist, that is impossible because racism is about power and they will tell you they don't have any power, you do and thus you are the only one that can be racist.

As for how long I've seen this, I could find older but this one is so conveniently close.


Watch out Hands, you start thinking too hard about this and it might alter your political views.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I think where you've lost your understanding is the belief that these are your countrymen. They aren't and of course noting this will cause these very same folks who are actively undermining your country to call you racist for pointing it out.

Wait....so if they are not your countrymen then they are still wrong for NOT SUPPORTING YOUR COUNTRYMEN.

Got it.

Quote:
They are people who have decided they are culturally, citizenship-wise, etc members of another country.

Fine...then let them support that country.

Note I am using Trump-speak here - of course there is no 'country' involved. It is an ideological system to which they owe allegiance...bit like the US called for against Communism etc...


Quote:
The things they take from your country including jobs, benefits, whatever, are just there to be taken because you are dumb enough to give them.

Multiculturalism notes that they are entitled to their culture regardless of how it is viewed with regard to your culture and if part of their culture involves destruction of your culture, then that is your fault and to be tolerated as well.

So they are not entitled to their culture?

So they must embrace your culture?

So they must not be tolerated?

Sounds a bit Weimar Republic ...oh wait.....

Quote:
If you don't care to tolerate it then of course you are a racist.

Those Jews kill and eat babies...

If you don't care to tolerate it then of course you are a racist....
Quote:
If you think they are being racist, that is impossible because racism is about power and they will tell you they don't have any power, you do and thus you are the only one that can be racist.

Uh-oh...... batteries running down...

Quote:
Watch out Hands, you start thinking too hard about this

You should try that Trumpy.... it feels good but is addictive

Quote:
and it might alter your political views.

I doubt it...if you mean he might start agreeing with you I think stopping thinking is probably more the ticket...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #29 of 47
This isn't much different than in the 90's when Serbians in the US, Canada, UK and other western countries went back to Yugo to take up arms against the soldiers of their adopted homes. Once they were done trying to kill NATO soldiers and possibly the soldiers of their adopted homes, they went back and enjoyed the benefits of those countries.

The argument against them doing this, of course, is that at a time of war, taking up arms against the military of your country could be an act of treason. At the least it certainly should be reason to hold you as a prisoner of war. It is hypocritical to move to a country, take advantage of it's benefits, take up arms against that country and then expect to move right on back once you are done.

My wife is Serbian and when her cousins went back to fight against NATO troops, I was clear that I disagreed with them, that I felt they were complete assholes for doing so, and that I would support any government action that would bar them from returning to Canada or would result in them being charged with treason. It's funny, because I think a lot of the people saying there is nothing wrong with the people going to fight against the soldiers of their adopted homes now, would probably have agreed with me about the Serbs.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #30 of 47
I've got a "What the Bleep"....this ties in also with SDW's incredulity in another thread about terrorists making money and being businesses too. This one works on many levels.

British take Fake Taliban leader into secret meeting

Apparently British intelligence took a top-level Taleban leader into a secret meeting and gave him hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But he turned out to be a fake and a Pakistani shopkeeper.

He's disappeared.

Questions at random:
  1. Why did they want secret meetings with Taleban
  2. Are such meetings routine?
  3. Why pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars?
  4. Is this routine?
  5. How did he fool British security?
  6. Wtf is going on?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I've got a "What the Bleep"....this ties in also with SDW's incredulity in another thread about terrorists making money and being businesses too. This one works on many levels.

British take Fake Taliban leader into secret meeting

Apparently British intelligence took a top-level Taleban leader into a secret meeting and gave him hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But he turned out to be a fake and a Pakistani shopkeeper.

He's disappeared.

Questions at random:
  1. Why did they want secret meetings with Taleban
  2. Are such meetings routine?
  3. Why pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars?
  4. Is this routine?
  5. How did he fool British security?
  6. Wtf is going on?

Surprised? Reported this @
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...55#post1758355
guess nobody picked up on it.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Wait....so if they are not your countrymen then they are still wrong for NOT SUPPORTING YOUR COUNTRYMEN.

Got it.

I'll be happy to see you quote where I said that oh master of the strawman.

Quote:
Fine...then let them support that country.

Note I am using Trump-speak here - of course there is no 'country' involved. It is an ideological system to which they owe allegiance...bit like the US called for against Communism etc...

Yes, we understand you would rather misrepresent, distort and caricature a position than address it. You can't really be blamed since your own position is indefensible. It's better to avoid rationalizing why you support these actions and just make fun of the people pointing at the truth.


Quote:
So they are not entitled to their culture?

So they must embrace your culture?

So they must not be tolerated?

Sounds a bit Weimar Republic ...oh wait.....

You sure like straw a lot. Could you attempt to actually address what was said instead of throwing out several loaded rhetorical questions in an attempt to distract from the issue.


Quote:
Those Jews kill and eat babies...

If you don't care to tolerate it then of course you are a racist....
Uh-oh...... batteries running down...

Caricature.

Quote:
You should try that Trumpy.... it feels good but is addictive

I doubt it...if you mean he might start agreeing with you I think stopping thinking is probably more the ticket...

Ad-hom.

Classic Sego post.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #33 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I've got a "What the Bleep"....this ties in also with SDW's incredulity in another thread about terrorists making money and being businesses too. This one works on many levels.

British take Fake Taliban leader into secret meeting

Apparently British intelligence took a top-level Taleban leader into a secret meeting and gave him hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But he turned out to be a fake and a Pakistani shopkeeper.

He's disappeared.

Questions at random:
  1. Why did they want secret meetings with Taleban
  2. Are such meetings routine?
  3. Why pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars?
  4. Is this routine?
  5. How did he fool British security?
  6. Wtf is going on?

1) The Brits want to try and negotiate peace, the US is much more hesitant in that relm.

2) Not with guys like this. He was a high official in the Taliban government and now helps them obtain weapons. Meetings with the Taliban do happen though.

3) Good question! I guess he wouldn't get out of bed for less!

4) Not at this high level.

5) MI6 have some explaining to do. There's the "he a shopkeeper" but there's also "he was Pakistani intelligence" if it proves to be the first one MI6 will have a few less employees. In their defence, at least they took the chance that he might be credible which could have lead to serious discussions on ending the conflict. They've had imposters before so they know the game.

6) Hopefully we'll find out soon.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #34 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I think where you've lost your understanding is the belief that these are your countrymen. They aren't and of course noting this will cause these very same folks who are actively undermining your country to call you racist for pointing it out.

They are people who have decided they are culturally, citizenship-wise, etc members of another country. The things they take from your country including jobs, benefits, whatever, are just there to be taken because you are dumb enough to give them. Multiculturalism notes that they are entitled to their culture regardless of how it is viewed with regard to your culture and if part of their culture involves destruction of your culture, then that is your fault and to be tolerated as well. If you don't care to tolerate it then of course you are a racist. If you think they are being racist, that is impossible because racism is about power and they will tell you they don't have any power, you do and thus you are the only one that can be racist.

As for how long I've seen this, I could find older but this one is so conveniently close.


Watch out Hands, you start thinking too hard about this and it might alter your political views.

These fighters aren't my idea of British but we're talking about a very small percentage of the population that make these choices. Casting all immigrants, long and short term, in the same light, which is how your posts reads is simply wrong and of course dangerous.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

These fighters aren't my idea of British but we're talking about a very small percentage of the population that make these choices. Casting all immigrants, long and short term, in the same light, which is how your posts reads is simply wrong and of course dangerous.

Your reasoning here is quite the funny read.

It breaks down as follows.

Quote:
These fighters aren't my idea of British but we're talking about a very small percentage of the population that make these choices.

You can say these folks are not British. Your reasoning isn't wrong and dangerous because you've qualified your views with the number SMALL.

Quote:
Casting all immigrants, long and short term, in the same light, which is how your posts reads is simply wrong and of course dangerous.

My views are wrong and dangerous because using the intent game, you've determined I'm speaking about all immigrants.

I'd be happy to read an explanation of what words I've typed that can be argued apply to all immigrants rather than the specific thread topic. You're just taking a cop out and trying to point a finger so you don't have to face your own reasoning.

I think where you've lost your understanding is the belief that these are your countrymen. They aren't and of course noting this will cause these very same folks who are actively undermining your country to call you racist for pointing it out.

These is plural of this.

This is defined as....

1. Being just mentioned or present in space, time, or thought: She left early this morning.
2. Being nearer or more immediate: this side and that side.

How do you take a word that is defined as pointing to what was just mentioned and apply it to an entire group?

You make this leap because you've decided they "aren't my idea of British" but you don't want those other folks to point their finger and their names at you. So you point it at me and scream that I must be a much bigger and meaner person.

Be brave in your convictions.

Citizenship has a definition. It is a social contract. Groups but whatever definition have decided to hang together and grant rights and responsibilities together within that group. If someone's aim it destroy the group, by definition they are not members of that group. Noting this doesn't make you racist. You aren't saying they aren't your definition of British because they are of a certain color or speak a certain language. I'm not saying that either. I'm saying they've decided they will take from one group, but belong to another group. That is their choice and I've not said they made the choice because of who they are but because of their actions. It is the same reasoning and you've noted it as well. I just added that when people want to stop discussion they scream racism. You've sort of personified that point for now. I'm hoping that will change.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Surprised? Reported this @
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...55#post1758355
guess nobody picked up on it.

You're surprised no one pays attention to your thread spamming?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #37 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Your reasoning here is quite the funny read.

It breaks down as follows.



You can say these folks are not British. Your reasoning isn't wrong and dangerous because you've qualified your views with the number SMALL.



My views are wrong and dangerous because using the intent game, you've determined I'm speaking about all immigrants.

I'd be happy to read an explanation of what words I've typed that can be argued apply to all immigrants rather than the specific thread topic. You're just taking a cop out and trying to point a finger so you don't have to face your own reasoning.

I think where you've lost your understanding is the belief that these are your countrymen. They aren't and of course noting this will cause these very same folks who are actively undermining your country to call you racist for pointing it out.

These is plural of this.

This is defined as....

1. Being just mentioned or present in space, time, or thought: She left early this morning.
2. Being nearer or more immediate: this side and that side.

How do you take a word that is defined as pointing to what was just mentioned and apply it to an entire group?

You make this leap because you've decided they "aren't my idea of British" but you don't want those other folks to point their finger and their names at you. So you point it at me and scream that I must be a much bigger and meaner person.

Be brave in your convictions.

Citizenship has a definition. It is a social contract. Groups but whatever definition have decided to hang together and grant rights and responsibilities together within that group. If someone's aim it destroy the group, by definition they are not members of that group. Noting this doesn't make you racist. You aren't saying they aren't your definition of British because they are of a certain color or speak a certain language. I'm not saying that either. I'm saying they've decided they will take from one group, but belong to another group. That is their choice and I've not said they made the choice because of who they are but because of their actions. It is the same reasoning and you've noted it as well. I just added that when people want to stop discussion they scream racism. You've sort of personified that point for now. I'm hoping that will change.


Like I said it's how I read your post. You didn't explicitly cast a wider net than I, but you broadened the range of possible people by using multi culturalism and benefits as being springboards to killing British forces. That just isn't the case. Many people get benefits and wish to keep their identities from earlier roots that wouldn't dream of attacking British forces.

Again though, that's only how I perceived your comments, not what you actually explicitly said.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Like I said it's how I read your post. You didn't explicitly cast a wider net than I, but you broadened the range of possible people by using multi culturalism and benefits as being springboards to killing British forces. That just isn't the case. Many people get benefits and wish to keep their identities from earlier roots that wouldn't dream of attacking British forces.

Again though, that's only how I perceived your comments, not what you actually explicitly said.

Those points were noted to show how such people are enabled rather than stopped.

I mean your thread title shows this point. It's right there. What the BLEEP? In other words, how can this happen? How can it even be allowed? The answer to that is multiculturalism which states, you aren't allowed to judge such actions.

Only the point remains, regardless of how large or small the numbers are, you SHOULD be able to judge such actions and label them as right or wrong based on if they are causing you and your fellow citizens harm. You say I noted benefits. Do you think that most of this small number of people could remit as much as they do to support these activities or even afford to travel there if not for certain benefits being given to them in your country? The point is valid. The numbers thing is just nonsense.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #39 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Those points were noted to show how such people are enabled rather than stopped.

I mean your thread title shows this point. It's right there. What the BLEEP? In other words, how can this happen? How can it even be allowed? The answer to that is multiculturalism which states, you aren't allowed to judge such actions.

Only the point remains, regardless of how large or small the numbers are, you SHOULD be able to judge such actions and label them as right or wrong based on if they are causing you and your fellow citizens harm. You say I noted benefits. Do you think that most of this small number of people could remit as much as they do to support these activities or even afford to travel there if not for certain benefits being given to them in your country? The point is valid. The numbers thing is just nonsense.

There aren't many people who aren't going to find criticism of killing UK forces by Brits going on trips to kill them worthy of criticism and I highly doubt that anyone would call them racist even if they empathised with them. Cutting benefits to certain groups because a tiny majority abuse the benefits likely would spur accusations of racism and in my opinion would be warranted. I would doubt too that benefits can actually play much of a funding role. Benefits are minimal, usually set at an amount that covers the basics and no more, so how many flights to Afghanistan etc that's going to pay for again will be arbitrary.

Now, I can see your larger point. You're saying, I think, that people come here because it's an easy number, have no particular love of the UK and have no want to change their way of being but instead want to change ours/mine to help make them distinct from us. This leaves them empowered to further the goals that are more in keeping with their country of origin than say, the UK. That view has some merit, the boundaries that are crossed cause tension whether we like it or not. It is going to happen. I veer towards having confidence that people will respect there new country and not want to damage it, indeed better it by bringing new energy and ideas, culture etc. Taking the opposite view from me I believe is likely to more harm than good.




I didn't read it but Chancellor Merkell in Germany spoke about muti culturalism was failing. I don't know what stance she took, but will read it. Personally the banning of minerets I find horrible. That's not how I see Europe, very sad.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You're surprised no one pays attention to your thread spamming?





Eugenics.....still waiting.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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