or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › What The BLEEP!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What The BLEEP! - Page 2

post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I didn't read it but Chancellor Merkell in Germany spoke about muti culturalism was failing. I don't know what stance she took, but will read it. Personally the banning of minerets I find horrible. That's not how I see Europe, very sad.

It failed in Germany in the 30s too.

It's not failure that is the issue it's why it fails.

If my car doesn't work it's not quite the whole truth to say the engine failed if someone took a sledgehammer to it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #42 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There aren't many people who aren't going to find criticism of killing UK forces by Brits going on trips to kill them worthy of criticism and I highly doubt that anyone would call them racist even if they empathised with them.

Well obviously I think you are wrong in that regard and I suspect when folks like yourself step forward with their views and get the sort of push back I'm discussing then the eyes begin opening and the base beliefs underneath the general platitudes get examined.

Quote:
Cutting benefits to certain groups because a tiny majority abuse the benefits likely would spur accusations of racism and in my opinion would be warranted. I would doubt too that benefits can actually play much of a funding role. Benefits are minimal, usually set at an amount that covers the basics and no more, so how many flights to Afghanistan etc that's going to pay for again will be arbitrary.

Perhaps we don't quite the same definition of benefit. I consider all wealth transfers of any sort to be a benefit. Health care for example, subsidized rates on utilities, etc. You wouldn't likely think of them as such because they are merely the benefits of being a citizen but that is my point, if you are off in another country shooting at your "fellow countrymen" then you don't deserve those benefits.

A quick question Hands, your article noted the example was a mini-cab driver. Do you think with that without the state apparatus providing what it does, he could work 9 months a year and then take three off to go fly half way across the world while also providing financial assistance for projects within their "home" country?

This need not be an issue of cutting off benefits. The state could simply disallow sending remittances to countries that are allowing terrorists cells to operate within their borders. They could simply investigate those who's passports show activity within their countries and deal with it individually. There's no need to whole sale toss away benefits for entire groups.

Yet here is the point that would bring about the cries of racism. Do you provide benefits to someone so they can live a culturally separate life within their home/host (depending upon where born regardless of who they most identify with) and undermine the values that make it that country? Why sharia courts for example?

Quote:
Now, I can see your larger point. You're saying, I think, that people come here because it's an easy number, have no particular love of the UK and have no want to change their way of being but instead want to change ours/mine to help make them distinct from us. This leaves them empowered to further the goals that are more in keeping with their country of origin than say, the UK. That view has some merit, the boundaries that are crossed cause tension whether we like it or not. It is going to happen. I veer towards having confidence that people will respect there new country and not want to damage it, indeed better it by bringing new energy and ideas, culture etc. Taking the opposite view from me I believe is likely to more harm than good.

Well in this instance you've been more respectful but we are going to disagree. While no one need look a certain way to be willing to come to a country and take on the culture, language and trappings that make it the way it is, by general definition one has not been respectful if they expect the country to bend to it when they have chosen to move there rather than the opposite.

Also you call the ideas new, when they aren't new but merely different. When someone demands a sharia court be set up for example that isn't new. It is an aspect of their former country they are demanding the state set up for them here. It is separate from the main culture and indicates a desire to remain separate. That new energy is being consumed in crafting parallel lives rather than lives being lived together for the benefit of all.
Quote:
I didn't read it but Chancellor Merkell in Germany spoke about muti culturalism was failing. I don't know what stance she took, but will read it. Personally the banning of minerets I find horrible. That's not how I see Europe, very sad.

Cultures cannot be above the other societal impulses. As I was noting in the thread about discussion about the Islamic cultural center, if they can keep out Walmart, they can keep out a cultural center. You have to look at the impulses that empower such a thing and then declare that all must be under them or none. Selective exceptions cannot be granted in some lame attempt to show selective and token tolerance.

The Swiss also banned violent videogames. What phobia would we call that? Is this type of censorship the type of Europe you know as well? It's worth a thought isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Eugenics.....still waiting.

Since the failure is in your ability to comprehend, you'll be waiting quite a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It failed in Germany in the 30s too.

It's not failure that is the issue it's why it fails.

If my car doesn't work it's not quite the whole truth to say the engine failed if someone took a sledgehammer to it.

Don't make stuff up. At least by American definitions, multiculturalism has never been previously attempted in Europe. By our standards, Europe has always been profoundly clannish to a ridiculous level. The EU has been the closest attempt to addressing this and as we can see, that attempt is broadly failing. You don't get points for warring against each other for a thousand years and starting a new country every time a few villages speak a different language, hold different customs, etc.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Don't make stuff up. At least by American definitions, multiculturalism has never been previously attempted in Europe. By our standards, Europe has always been profoundly clannish to a ridiculous level. The EU has been the closest attempt to addressing this and as we can see, that attempt is broadly failing. You don't get points for warring against each other for a thousand years and starting a new country every time a few villages speak a different language, hold different customs, etc.

Oh..forgot...you have your own definitions of things.

Ok...what do you mean when you say "muliticulturalism"

Do you mean that the term has never been used before now? If so you are correct.

If you mean do cultures exist within other cultures and maintain their cultural identity at the behest of the host country you are wrong.

I've said this before but you really should stick to expressing opinions about the US....you have far more chance of being correct and that matters right?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #44 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Oh..forgot...you have your own definitions of things.

Ok...what do you mean when you say "muliticulturalism"

Do you mean that the term has never been used before now? If so you are correct.

So you are saying a concept for which there was no word and understanding was applied perfectly for hundreds of years and now that we have the word and understanding, of course it isn't applied?

Quite the paradox. It seems ignorance was bliss based on your understanding.

Quote:
If you mean do cultures exist within other cultures and maintain their cultural identity at the behest of the host country you are wrong.

Quite the interesting word there, behest. My definitions of it are order or strong request. I'm reading that as the cultures remained separate at the order or strong request of a country.

Was that your intention?

Quote:
I've said this before but you really should stick to expressing opinions about the US....you have far more chance of being correct and that matters right?

Oh I think perhaps it is you that needs to wander out of your euro-centric box and see why some of us don't see quite the same level of "success" you declare for the old continent.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #45 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So you are saying a concept for which there was no word and understanding was applied perfectly for hundreds of years and now that we have the word and understanding, of course it isn't applied?

Quite the paradox. It seems ignorance was bliss based on your understanding.



Quite the interesting word there, behest. My definitions of it are order or strong request. I'm reading that as the cultures remained separate at the order or strong request of a country.

Was that your intention?



Oh I think perhaps it is you that needs to wander out of your euro-centric box and see why some of us don't see quite the same level of "success" you declare for the old continent.

Let's try again: what do you understand by the word 'Multicultarlism' ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #46 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Let's try again: what do you understand by the word 'Multicultarlism' ?

Hey don't knock me mister.

I think I may see the problem. Obviously in my field we deal with multiculturalism a lot so I popped over to Wikipedia to see their take on it. I found this and I suspect this is the crux of the issue.

Quote:
Different understandings of multiculturalism

In contemporary society, multiculturalism is generally understood in two different and seemingly inconsistent ways:

* The first focuses on interaction and communication between different cultures. Interactions of cultures provide opportunities for the cultural differences to communicate and interact to create multiculturalism.
* The second centers on diversity and cultural uniqueness. Cultural isolation can protect the uniqueness of the local culture of a nation or area and also contribute to global cultural diversity. The policy Cultural exception introduced by France in General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) negotiations in 1993 was a precise example of protecting one's own cultural safety.

When different cultures operate with each other, those two understandings of multiculturalism result in dissimilar strategies - cultural interaction and isolation - and neither of them is absolutely right. The two understandings of multiculturalism are not absolutely distinct from each other. Moreover, the opposing understandings and strategies sometimes actually complement each other work to generate new cultural phenomena that embody the ideologies of the individual cultures and the relationships between them. The term Transculturation, coined by Cuban anthropologist Fernando Ortiz in 1940, indicates a transaction of one culture with another.[12] Mary Louise Pratt coined the phrase the contact zone to describe cultural clashes and operations.[13] In the cultural environment they illustrated, cultures are not only interacted or isolated. Those two strategies work at the same time and apply to different aspects of cultures to create new forms of cultures. Multiculturalism can be defined in a ways that go beyond human activities to give a vivid multi-dimensional understanding of cultural interaction, cultural isolation and phenomena between these two extremes.

I would say that from the my perspective, especially here in California, attempts at cultural isolation are being discouraged and, especially in a state in which there is no majority, only minority majorities, cultural isolation is no longer seen as acceptable. When you are 4% within a 90%+ majority, declaring you need a place where you are isolated from and free of cultural interactions with the majority culture and where you can reinforce and maintain your own cultural identity, make some sense.

Note I only say some though because this belief that everyone stays separate, interacts and then goes back to their own little islands is a false one and in my opinion a very limited understanding. People do not choose to limit themselves in such manners. They begin seeking people outside of their culture, outside of their race and outside of their language. You end up with cultural fusion. Some forms of multicultural understanding declare this to not be multiculturalism but a form of assimilation, but with there being no dominant culture, I would ask to what are they being assimilated with but the future?

So the point is I can see that there can be disagreement there.

Since I've stated my view on this, please return the favor.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #47 of 47
Thread Starter 
Trumptman- "Perhaps we don't quite the same definition of benefit. I consider all wealth transfers of any sort to be a benefit. Health care for example, subsidized rates on utilities, etc. You wouldn't likely think of them as such because they are merely the benefits of being a citizen but that is my point, if you are off in another country shooting at your "fellow countrymen" then you don't deserve those benefits."
--

--You were saying earlier these benefits encourage people to come here and thereby seemed to suggest that reducing or cutting them would be a great way to reduce terrorism and conflict. Perhaps I misunderstood your position?--
--



Trumpt "A quick question Hands, your article noted the example was a mini-cab driver. Do you think with that without the state apparatus providing what it does, he could work 9 months a year and then take three off to go fly half way across the world while also providing financial assistance for projects within their "home" country?"--
--
I don't know how much he earned as a cab driver. I would think he made upwards of $1,000 a week at least though, which pending on his circumstances would mean he could afford to go to Afghanistan for 3 months a year and have money for other things too. I really think this boils down to needing better intelligence rather than stripping rights away from people who have families in countries your country has troops in. It seems fraught with issues.--
--




Trumpt "This need not be an issue of cutting off benefits. The state could simply disallow sending remittances to countries that are allowing terrorists cells to operate within their borders. They could simply investigate those who's passports show activity within their countries and deal with it individually. There's no need to whole sale toss away benefits for entire groups.

Yet here is the point that would bring about the cries of racism. Do you provide benefits to someone so they can live a culturally separate life within their home/host (depending upon where born regardless of who they most identify with) and undermine the values that make it that country? Why sharia courts for example?"--
--
Culture isn't always easy to define and changes with time too, which makes trying to regulate who is "ok", ie accepted and who isn't, tricky. Then there's the freedom of religion etc...so again which is culturally ok and which isn't will likely depend on your particular view.

The law needs to take into account how people live or it's somewhat blind to the reason and motives for people's actions.--




Trumpt "While no one need look a certain way to be willing to come to a country and take on the culture, language and trappings that make it the way it is, by general definition one has not been respectful if they expect the country to bend to it when they have chosen to move there rather than the opposite.

--
--
Also you call the ideas new, when they aren't new but merely different. When someone demands a sharia court be set up for example that isn't new. It is an aspect of their former country they are demanding the state set up for them here. It is separate from the main culture and indicates a desire to remain separate. That new energy is being consumed in crafting parallel lives rather than lives being lived together for the benefit of all."Remember there will be born and bred natives who use say Sharia Law that might not have without the steady determination of generations of new immigrants.

Clearly religion plays a major role. I tend think it's all over blown and unwarranted fears. Muslims serve in the forces, they abide by our laws and they want a little of their own in personal civil matters that reflect their religion. Shouldn't they be allowed to pray to their own God? I might think those laws suck but those laws have to meet certain standards of our own, then there's some give. More give than a lot of people in the West would like no doubt, but not enough to destroy us. The fears a bit out of hand in my view.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › What The BLEEP!