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Apple iPad widely expected to lead tablet disruption of PCs in 2011 - Page 3

post #81 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post

I'm with you. I think it may happen. But I don't think it'd be next year. It's a new market and I think apple would prefer to not dilute their product until the market is better established.

To draw a comparison, the stripped down shuffle was introduced three years after the first iPod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The pace of competition and technology are much more accelerated today which will likely compress the time frame IMO.

The market has changed focus -- the action is in the mobile tablet market! IMO, 2011 is the year of the tablet -- you're (mfgrs) either in the market with a big-time commitment -- or you'll have missed it.
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post #82 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

At this point with the iTunes ecosystem so entrenched, Apple could put a 30 pin dock connector on a bag of pretzels and there would be queue around the block.

Yeah... but they shoulda' made a chocolate covered pretzel with a slot for peanut butter
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post #83 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I don't know jack. I'm just making this stuff up as I go.

I knew Jack... Jack was a friend of mine... You're no Jack...

And

"All work and no play makes Jack... lotsa' Jack!"
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post #84 of 121
In fact it is a question I struggle with often as I await iPad 2. That is will I use it enough considering my heavy use of iPhone which is with me 24/7. Carrying an iPhone everywhere I go is easy relative to an iPad. An iPad though requires a lot of thought in the same manner as a laptop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I slept on that question and I arrived at the same thing that I said to DaHarder... why would you take two devices (phone plus Galaxy Tab) when you could just take the iPhone and leave the tab at home (the Tab can only be used as a phone if you use Skype). I couldn't see any advantage in also having the Tab with me.

The use case is the same as an iPad in an easier to carry package.
Quote:
The GT seemed too big (to me) to be any more convenient than the iPad.

That is highly debatable but probably isn't worth a discussion because everyones needs are different. I will only say that in many cases a smaller device will be prefered.
Quote:
It won't fit into a pocket easily and might as well be left at home. If it is to be left at home then I would much rather have the screen real estate that my iPad offers.

You see this is where you fall down, because you imple that somthing that doesn't fit into a pocket isn't worth taking along. It is really just the opposite in my mind, the more manageable size means that it is easier to take along. The only issue being the devices ability to deliver your required apps effectively in the field. Some apps require a big screen but most do not.
Quote:

Other than Flash I didn't see anything that the GT offered over the iPad.

Just my observations.

Well size for one. If you have been brain washed into believing that bigger is always beter than this can be hard to swallow. But it is a reality.

TABs biggest short coming is Android more than anything. It is not however short on other useful features. Somebody else has already covered the OS issue but to paraphrase there's nothing ready in the short term for alternative tablets. I like RIMs use of QNX but they are a long way from having a viable tablet SDK, android just doesn't do it for me so at the moment Apple is the only player. More than anything else it is the issue of OS'es suitable for the devices that is inhibiting competition.
post #85 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post


Would you say that the competition is moving pretty slowly compared to the general rate of technology these days? The ipad has outpaced the competition to the point that:
*the nearest competitor, android, still doesn't have an os that they feel is right for a tablet device, even as hardware manufacturers are trying to push into the market
*Other competitors like rim and hp/palm also don't even have an os ready for a tablet device.
*the iPad seems to be succeedIng to the point where they can manage better pricing through more volume. Entry devices are looking to compete by going smaller.

I know you were asking someone else, but I think this is an easy one.
The rest of the world seems to be moving slowly because they are starting from so far behind. Before the iPad was released everyone thought tablets had to run a full os (you know, with printer drivers and running Microsoft Office and such).

Of course, that is how the industry had been trying to make tablets for years, but no one seemed to see that there was another way until they saw how sleek and fast and fun the iPad was. Long battery life, the App eco system and lightning responsiveness didn't just happen with the iPad, Apple had been working on the tablet for years and laying the groundwork while everyone else was waiting for Windows 7!

I think it is a credit to Google that Android even close to becoming credible competition. You can see why Jobs was so angry when Google entered this arena. Of course Google had a member on Apple's board for years, so it is fair to wonder what Android would look like if they had to do it all on their own...
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post #86 of 121
I read all the posts here today and i think apple will bring out a 8x5 7x5 ipad or touch IOS device in 3 yrs .

7x5 is lab coat sized and can be used by the medical people in the tens of millions of units world wide.

go to an apple store grab a touch and a ipad . Put side by side and there seems to be a form factor missing .

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post #87 of 121
I'll stick with the leader, Apple ... both for product and stock. I'm looking forward to their plans for the new data center as well.
post #88 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

You see this is where you fall down, because you imple that somthing that doesn't fit into a pocket isn't worth taking along. It is really just the opposite in my mind, the more manageable size means that it is easier to take along. The only issue being the devices ability to deliver your required apps effectively in the field. Some apps require a big screen but most do not.


Well size for one. If you have been brain washed into believing that bigger is always beter than this can be hard to swallow. But it is a reality.

I imply that something that doesn't fit into a pocket isn't worth taking along?!

HUH?

I implied that if I'm going to take something along that doesn't easily fit into my pocket then it doesn't matter whether I take the GT or the iPad because I'm going to have to stick the damn thing into something less convenient than a pocket... in that case I'll take the iPad... and it has nothing to do with being brainwashed into believing that bigger is always better. Bigger is better if the next best choice is something smaller, almost as expensive and no less convenient to carry around and has less functionality (imo)... especially if you already have an iPhone that is a much better choice for a convenient package that does everything including being able to be used as a phone.
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post #89 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

I read all the posts here today and i think apple will bring out a 8x5 7x5 ipad or touch IOS device in 3 yrs .

7x5 is lab coat sized and can be used by the medical people in the tens of millions of units world wide.

go to an apple store grab a touch and a ipad . Put side by side and there seems to be a form factor missing .

9

I think if you do a web search for "iPad Lab Coat", you will find that there are quite a few lab coats with pockets that can hold the iPad -- so that has become less of an issue.

When I am carrying a lot of gear (Cameras, tripod, iPhone, iPad, Folding chair) I carry the iPad in a holster with a shoulder strap. My camera bag (containing 2 cameras, batteries, SD cards andmy iPhone) also attaches to the iPad Holster strap -- freeing both hands for the tripod and chair.
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post #90 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Well obviously I just did! Aspect ratio is very important if one of your primary use cases is the delivery of video and movies. Obviously there is no perfect aspect ratio, but the point is wider would have been smarter on the iPad.

If it were mostly for looking at movies. Since it's not, widescreen would have compromised many other applications in favor of one.

Quote:
Actually a wider aspect ratio is good for a number of things including viewing of pics, reading a column of text, certain types of games, apps that leverage a wide screen (IDEs) and others. There is really very little to defend with respect to the 4:3 ratio.

Wow. Did you get a certain sinking feeling while you were typing that? Because it must have occurred to you, as it would to anyone reading that list, that you're just strenuously pretending.

Pictures are not better on a wide screen, you have to shrink or crop to fit them in. A column of text is typically part of multiple columns and or images on a full page layout, which is better on the iPad. "Certain games"? Care to name one? "Apps that leverage widescreen"? Care to name one? And yes, I suppose an app specifically written to an aspect ratio is going to fare better on that aspect ratio than another, how is that a selling point?

Quote:
Don't be dense you would actually be increasing usability especially as the screen becomes smaller. For example grab an iPhone and type in text into this very dialog box. You get constant scrolling in horizontal orientation. The easiest way to improve iPhone, without blowing it up size wise is to give it a wider screen.

The same physical realities are at work when you are dealing with sub seven inch displays. You need one orientation that is much wider than the other to realize effective UI elements like keyboards.

You're making the case for rendering a 7" screen somewhat more usable, not for why the iPad needs to be widescreen. I don't think anyone is arguing that HTC should make a 4:3 7" tablet.

Quote:
Yep and everyone of those text delivery formats works better on a taller screen. Especially on a small device. Think about newspapers and their centuries of experience with columns of text. Papers are arrainged the way they are because it enhances readability as would a wide screen display offer up text in vertical mode. The science here is very clear. Just because Apple effectively markets it's choice of aspect ratios doesn't mean that that ratio is a good solution from the human factors perspective.

Yikes, again with the crazy talk. If widescreen layouts are so desirable, why don't newspapers come in long tall strips?

The fact is that books, magazines, newspapers, flyers, brochures, pamphlets and, critically, web pages all tend closer to 4:3 than widescreen, because narrow columns feel constrained. Yes, text may be laid out in columns as an element on a page. The iPad lets me look at the whole page. You're trying to argue that there's something wonderful in being forced to only look at the constituent elements, one at a time. As I say, crazy talk.

Quote:
Again I have to question if you really know what you are talking about. Have you looked at a 35mm negative? The closest format to paper size is or was the 6x7 cm format, other formats are far from 4:3 and some where square. Pics are often printed on common paper sizes but even those vary a bit in aspect ratios

OK, so which common film format is closer to 16:9, again?

Quote:
Exactly! How would you type up notes on a sub seven in device without it being wide screen? The keyboard would still be a compromise but would be significantly wider, in horizontal mode, than a keyboard on a 4:3 ratio device.

Again, an argument for how to make a 7" screen have some utility, not for why the iPad needs to go widescreen.

Quote:
Like a steno pad? If you want something bigger then you have more options, but as devices get smaller usability goes out the window with 4:3 aspect ratios. Besides ask yourself this; in a notebook what is the aspect ratio of the working surface?

And again. Also, 8.5x11, which is what I consider the working surface of a notebook, is far closer to 4:3 than 16:9, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Quote:
Or turn it vertically and user reader mode to read the text like you would in a newspaper. I'm not sure why you are struggling so much here, it is pretty simple really.

Surprisingly, I don't carry a little vertical mask so as to read newspapers a column at a time with no awareness of anything surrounding.

Quote:
Nope not at all, what we are looking at is the human factors issues that have been with us for thousands of years now when it comes to reading text. Plus the smarter media delivery that comes with a wide screen.

Good lord. It's like talking to someone from an alternate world. Where are all these long and tall text delivery systems? Why isn't the standard paper size something like 12X7 instead of 11 x 8.5?

Quote:
You mis a couple of important points. First there are billions of people on the planet. Second there are millions of those that buy whatever Apple feeds them. Some even bought AppleTVs. Beyound that we really don't know what Apple tested or what they intend to deliver on other devices. Apple could deliver a wide screen device and simply call it a video iPod.

Ah, the old "it's only popular because of Apple's mysterious powers of hypnosis" canard. No need to pay any mind to the available evidence, it's all smoke and mirrors.

Quote:
As for developers and apps, they have been fitting apps to the available tech since the start of the computer age. In a very literal sense you work with what you have be that a TTY, an 80x20 text display or an OpenGL driven display. In this case developers see a platform that they can make lots of money on so they optimize for the device, which should surprise no one.

Which is why Samsung should make an 6 x 14 tablet. It will give us even more of that wonderful column goodness, and app developers will simply adapt.
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post #91 of 121
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Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Good lord. It's like talking to someone from an alternate world.

Bingo!!!
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post #92 of 121
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Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think if you do a web search for "iPad Lab Coat", you will find that there are quite a few lab coats with pockets that can hold the iPad -- so that has become less of an issue.

When I am carrying a lot of gear (Cameras, tripod, iPhone, iPad, Folding chair) I carry the iPad in a holster with a shoulder strap. My camera bag (containing 2 cameras, batteries, SD cards andmy iPhone) also attaches to the iPad Holster strap -- freeing both hands for the tripod and chair.

agreed
i only feel for sales to hit tens of millions world wide it needs to be a tad smaller .
i predict that we have only touched base on the incredible uses that ios devices hold .

my ipod touch still amazes me .
peace

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post #93 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

If it were mostly for looking at movies. Since it's not, widescreen would have compromised many other applications in favor of one.



Wow. Did you get a certain sinking feeling while you were typing that? Because it must have occurred to you, as it would to anyone reading that list, that you're just strenuously pretending.

Pictures are not better on a wide screen, you have to shrink or crop to fit them in. A column of text is typically part of multiple columns and or images on a full page layout, which is better on the iPad. "Certain games"? Care to name one? "Apps that leverage widescreen"? Care to name one? And yes, I suppose an app specifically written to an aspect ratio is going to fare better on that aspect ratio than another, how is that a selling point?



You're making the case for rendering a 7" screen somewhat more usable, not for why the iPad needs to be widescreen. I don't think anyone is arguing that HTC should make a 4:3 7" tablet.



Yikes, again with the crazy talk. If widescreen layouts are so desirable, why don't newspapers come in long tall strips?

The fact is that books, magazines, newspapers, flyers, brochures, pamphlets and, critically, web pages all tend closer to 4:3 than widescreen, because narrow columns feel constrained. Yes, text may be laid out in columns as an element on a page. The iPad lets me look at the whole page. You're trying to argue that there's something wonderful in being forced to only look at the constituent elements, one at a time. As I say, crazy talk.



OK, so which common film format is closer to 16:9, again?



Again, an argument for how to make a 7" screen have some utility, not for why the iPad needs to go widescreen.



And again. Also, 8.5x11, which is what I consider the working surface of a notebook, is far closer to 4:3 than 16:9, so I'm not sure what your point is.



Surprisingly, I don't carry a little vertical mask so as to read newspapers a column at a time with no awareness of anything surrounding.



Good lord. It's like talking to someone from an alternate world. Where are all these long and tall text delivery systems? Why isn't the standard paper size something like 12X7 instead of 11 x 8.5?



Ah, the old "it's only popular because of Apple's mysterious powers of hypnosis" canard. No need to pay any mind to the available evidence, it's all smoke and mirrors.



Which is why Samsung should make an 6 x 14 tablet. It will give us even more of that wonderful column goodness, and app developers will simply adapt.


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post #94 of 121
The thing is that tablet PCs aren't as functional as desktop PCs. Sure, I'd like an iPad, but there's no possible way I'd substitute it over a laptop. Right now tablet PCs are fun to play with, but there's not much real work you can achieve with them. You can do simple word process, watch movies, and play games, but they're nothing near what a real PC can do. Try typing with a physical keyboard, then type with the keyboard on an iPad and watch how much your WPM drops. The thing is that smaller, touchscreen devices simply can't do as much as a manual device. I'm not taking away from the iPad, but the people who are expecting tablet PCs to do everything a desktop PC can do will be disappointed (e.g. the 11 million people who bought the iPad over a computer). (Kudos to Apple for selling millions of these things, by the way.)
post #95 of 121
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Originally Posted by Mav240 View Post

The thing is that tablet PCs aren't as functional as desktop PCs. Sure, I'd like an iPad, but there's no possible way I'd substitute it over a laptop. Right now tablet PCs are fun to play with, but there's not much real work you can achieve with them. You can do simple word process, watch movies, and play games, but they're nothing near what a real PC can do. Try typing with a physical keyboard, then type with the keyboard on an iPad and watch how much your WPM drops. The thing is that smaller, touchscreen devices simply can't do as much as a manual device. I'm not taking away from the iPad, but the people who are expecting tablet PCs to do everything a desktop PC can do will be disappointed (e.g. the 11 million people who bought the iPad over a computer). (Kudos to Apple for selling millions of these things, by the way.)

give apple 4 gen of ipads and you'll see your whole point deflated
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post #96 of 121
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Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Well obviously I just did!

Of course you did, don't be dense. Previously, you said, "there is a thought in the industry." Where, who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Aspect ratio is very important if one of your primary use cases is the delivery of video and movies. Obviously there is no perfect aspect ratio, but the point is wider would have been smarter on the iPad.

As for this point and the rest of your points, I think you are just confusing yourself; and I am forced to conclude you don't know what you are talking about...

You began your initial post by comparing competitors' 7in tablets to the iPad. Of course, there is only one iPad at the moment. So when you state that Apple has gotten the size and aspect ratio of the iPad wrong, we have to assume you are talking about the 9.7 in, 4:3, 1024 x 768 iPad that I am typing this post on right now, and not some hypothetical 7in iPad or oversize video iPod that Apple may or may not release in the future to "remain competitive", according to your unnamed pundits.

So as you complain how the iPad is too large, I don't understand why you think it should be made "wider". Rather, it is already "taller" than the competing 7inchers (in landscape). To go smaller and wide format, would be like making the iPad 1024 x640 or so. We would lose some 120 pixels off the narrow side, which is extremely useful for most productive purposes. I would have this full keyboard up, but little space above the keyboard to see the text I am now typing. I might see as much of this webpage as i see now, but at the expense of the browser bar above. What good is that?

I think you are arguing for the sake of it, and making a poor argument at that. Portrait or landscape, my iPad is very usable. I don't want it squished down wider. At the same screen size of 9.7 in, that would make it too tall in portrait mode and less compact to carry. Reduce the screen size like the competitors have done, and as i have noted, you 1) lose productive vertical space in landscape mode, and 2) portrait mode for reading or creating becomes unnatural.

Furethermore, I don't agree that watching movies is the primary purpose. A wider format would be odd to use productively in portrait mode. It would be like reading a long receipt rather than a book.

I didn't say most photos are exactly 4:3. But they are far closer to that than they are to 16:9 movies. Photos get cropped less when displayed full screen on an iPad than on a wide format screen. I think you made my point when you mentioned other photo ratios. The closer to square you get, the worse they look on wide-format screens. You would get an awful lot more and worse vertical letter boxing, versus the simple horizontal letter boxing you see when you view a 16:9 movie on an iPad. Personally, I would rather have the letterboxed movies.

BTW, I am a free-lancer who does photography, videography and video editing, DTP, web design and presentations all on a professional basis. This 4:3 format is a lot more versatile for all these things than a wider format would be.
post #97 of 121
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Originally Posted by newbee View Post

This tells me all I need to know about you .... as they say in Texas ..... "All hat, no cattle"

I was going to let this go, but its been bugging me...
I don't think I was claiming to have a big hat--all I said was "as a shareholder." I didn't claim to be a major player. Like many Apple fans on this site, my passion for all things Apple predates my financial interest in the company.
And certainly there has to be more to know about me than the fact that I did not invest in Apple the first few times I thought it was a good idea!

[/end defensive rant]
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post #98 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mav240 View Post

Right now tablet PCs are fun to play with, but there's not much real work you can achieve with them.

It's a matter of perspective and people choosing the right tool for the job: a surgeon won't achieve much real work in their profession with a blowtorch.

There are tasks and uses for which the iPad is perfect.
post #99 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizedek View Post

So as you complain how the iPad is too large, I don't understand why you think it should be made "wider". Rather, it is already "taller" than the competing 7inchers (in landscape). To go smaller and wide format, would be like making the iPad 1024 x640 or so. We would lose some 120 pixels off the narrow side, which is extremely useful for most productive purposes.

Portrait or landscape, my iPad is very usable. I don't want it squished down wider. At the same screen size of 9.7 in, that would make it too tall in portrait mode and less compact to carry. Reduce the screen size like the competitors have done, and as i have noted, you 1) lose productive vertical space in landscape mode, and 2) portrait mode for reading or creating becomes unnatural.

Furethermore, I don't agree that watching movies is the primary purpose. A wider format would be odd to use productively in portrait mode.
It would be like reading a long receipt rather than a book.

I didn't say most photos are exactly 4:3. But they are far closer to that than they are to 16:9 movies. Photos get cropped less when displayed full screen on an iPad than on a wide format screen. I think you made my point when you mentioned other photo ratios. The closer to square you get, the worse they look on wide-format screens. You would get an awful lot more and worse vertical letter boxing, versus the simple horizontal letter boxing you see when you view a 16:9 movie on an iPad. Personally, I would rather have the letterboxed movies.


Kizedek I think you've given perfect answers as to why 4:3 is best for the iPad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Actually a wider aspect ratio is good for a number of things including viewing of pics, reading a column of text, certain types of games, apps that leverage a wide screen (IDEs) and others. There is really very little to defend with respect to the 4:3 ratio.

Have you looked at a 35mm negative? The closest format to paper size is or was the 6x7 cm format, other formats are far from 4:3 and some where square. Pics are often printed on common paper sizes but even those vary a bit in aspect ratios.

16:9 ratio for video is itself a compromise: it was chosen as a best fit between the older 4:3 cinema/TV formats and the more recent 2.37:1 cinema format.

As for still photography most formats tend towards 4:3.
I believe the greatest benefit for 16:9 comes from watching on at least a 37 inch screen; other than black bars I doubt it's noticeably different on a 9 inch screen, even less so on 7 inches.
The iPad isn't solely for video.
post #100 of 121
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Originally Posted by axual View Post

I'll stick with the leader, Apple ... both for product and stock. I'm looking forward to their plans for the new data center as well.

It's a smart bet. For the next 6-7 years at least.
post #101 of 121
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Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I invested quite a bit in innuendo. Made out like a bandit.

Innuendo ... isn't that the Italian suppository manufacturer?

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post #102 of 121
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Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

Innuendo ... isn't that the Italian suppository manufacturer?

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post #103 of 121
In my opinion Retina display in iPad 2 is quite sure

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post #104 of 121
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Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

I dont think the comparison is particularly tight, but I still think it has some validity.
With phones, there were people who would not consider switching to AT&T--they might have bought iPhones but now many of the have Andriod phones.

With tablets, many people think that the iPad is too big or heavy. If Apple does not give them what they want, many of them will buy from competitors who do offer the form factor they want. While those competitors are figuring things out and working out the bugs, their users will not necessarily see the product as inferior to the iPad because they may not see iPad as comparable due to its different form factor..
The fact that there are no contracts means that switching from one product to the other is easier, sure. However, people will still have an investment in apps and a familiarity with the operating system they have been working with and maybe some sense of brand loyalty.

Besides, it is not the two year contract which sent many Verizon users to Android but the lack of an Apple product that they could get...

The tablet market will ultimately be driven by available Apps and Apple's dominance in this key area grows daily. Fragmented and insecure Android will never have a serious place at the table for commercial apps developers. The ones that are trying to port over are nearly universally crying uncle and will mostly abandon the platform for the much more developer and consumer friendly iOS market (Despite what the "open" crowd would like everyone to believe).

Call me a fanboy if you like, that just make you delusional
post #105 of 121
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Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

Innuendo ... isn't that the Italian suppository manufacturer?

No... that's UppaUS

... And the famous Neapolitan Lion Tamer was named Claude Genitalia.

.
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post #106 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by giosaccone View Post

In my opinion Retina display in iPad 2 is quite sure

Im always curious what people mean by Retina Display in regards to the iPads 9.7 4:3 display.
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post #107 of 121
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Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

Agree except for "margins on the iPad must be tight." Businessweek estimates the low-end iPad's component costs to be about $259:

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...046_788280.htm

The screen is the most expensive component, followed by flash RAM, then the A4 system-on-chip. Apple keeps its costs down by using very similar circuit boards in all their iDevices, from iPhone to iPod touch to iPad to Apple TV. They can thus purchase components (especially flash RAM) in huge quantities at the best per-unit prices in the industry.

Minor correction. NAND Flash or Flash memory not Flash RAM. RAM is useless when it comes to storing your media library or anything for long, really.
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post #108 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobility View Post

Minor correction. NAND Flash or Flash memory not Flash RAM. RAM is useless when it comes to storing your media library or anything for long, really.

As a general rule of thumb and for a non-technical discussion, sure, but pedantically speaking there are many types of non-volatile RAM that can be used for power off storage.
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post #109 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As a general rule of thumb and for a non-technical discussion, sure, but pedantically speaking there are many types of non-volatile RAM that can be used for power off storage.

Frankly I find it frustrating to see people demonstrate that they don't know the difference between RAM and Flash storage. So I tend to support people that try to highlight the error. Why you might ask?

Well it is pretty simple, knowledge can help keep a person from being taken advantage of. Plus I find Apples hiding of stats such as installed RAM in iPad deplorable and underhanded. In fact it is down right sleazy.

For those that want to know;

RAM = Random Acccess Memory, it is primary fast storage and in many systems is considered volitile.

Flash on the other hand is a name applied to a type of electrically erasable programmable read only memory. In the case of Apple products it is NOT random access and can not be accessed directly by the CPU. Here it is a form of secondary storage much like a disk drive.

Frankly this mistake is so bad that I really think the site should consider banning people that can't grasp the issue and repeatedly post info that leads others to greater confusion. I'm all for helping people out but those that can't help themselves get no sympathy from me. The error is hideous and completely avoidable with a little education.
post #110 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Frankly I find it frustrating to see people demonstrate that they don't know the difference between RAM and Flash storage. So I tend to support people that try to highlight the error. Why you might ask?

Well it is pretty simple, knowledge can help keep a person from being taken advantage of. Plus I find Apples hiding of stats such as installed RAM in iPad deplorable and underhanded. In fact it is down right sleazy.

For those that want to know;

RAM = Random Acccess Memory, it is primary fast storage and in many systems is considered volitile.

Flash on the other hand is a name applied to a type of electrically erasable programmable read only memory. In the case of Apple products it is NOT random access and can not be accessed directly by the CPU. Here it is a form of secondary storage much like a disk drive.

Frankly this mistake is so bad that I really think the site should consider banning people that can't grasp the issue and repeatedly post info that leads others to greater confusion. I'm all for helping people out but those that can't help themselves get no sympathy from me. The error is hideous and completely avoidable with a little education.

1) Are you implying that I did equate Flash to RAM?

2) I think it’s deplorable that other companies don’t list relevant specs that are useful to the majority of customers. For instanace, accurate battery duration with various durations for specific uses, something that Apple does well.

3) I don’t think it’s deplorable that Apple doesn’t list the amount of RAM, CPU speed, Flash speed, GPU gigaflops, L2 cache, nanometer process, milliWatts per core, or any other thing that only matters to a select few enthusiasts. Sure, I find it annoying, but it’s not sleazy. All that matters is how well it works for the user, and having a 1GHz Cortex-A8 in a phone isn’t going to make Symbian’s UI perform 25% more smoothly and be more useful than the IPhone 4’s 800MHz Cortex-A8. It’s fraking CE!
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post #111 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I believe that you mean media consumption devices -- and I agree.

I, for one, am curious if Apple will offer the iMovie app on today's iPad. It may be that the iPad has insufficient RAM -- though the 4-Gen iPod Touch is supported (same RAM as iPad);

That's for today's iPad. What about iPad 2. I assume that it will have 1 GB RAM, a dual-core Cortex A9-based CPU and a GPU capable of running OpenCL.

That's some pretty serious compute power!

I suspect that it could handle iMovie as well as today's Mac iMovie -- and maybe even a iPad version of Motion!

.

Current ipad has 256 mb of ram appl most likly will put 520 som odd mb of ram in it like current iphone then theyll upgrade iphone nd ipod nd the cycle will keep on goin ram/processor/battery life etc
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post #112 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Are you implying that I did equate Flash to RAM?

Nope not at all. The problem is with the guy that first used the phrase "flash RAM". I was supporting the guy you reffered to that tried to educate the original writer.

Of all the things I see on this forum the fact that people still use flash and RAM to fetter to the same thing is extremely bothersome.
Quote:
2) I think its deplorable that other companies dont list relevant specs that are useful to the majority of customers. For instanace, accurate battery duration with various durations for specific uses, something that Apple does well.

Those are ligitimate concerns. My problem with Apple is that the data isn't listed anywhere on the publically available web sites. At least not to the best of my knowledge. They do however have plenty of space to detail the flash installed in each model. It is just something they should have available to people that understand what RAM is.

The reality is many people don't so i see no reason for public advertising. This is likely to become more important when new models arrive. You see I understand that one component of the people Apple is selling to don't care or want to understand such details. But that doesn't justify being sneaky with the rest of the world.
Quote:
3) I dont think its deplorable that Apple doesnt list the amount of RAM, CPU speed, Flash speed, GPU gigaflops, L2 cache, nanometer process, milliWatts per core, or any other thing that only matters to a select few enthusiasts. Sure, I find it annoying, but its not sleazy. All that matters is how well it works for the user, and having a 1GHz Cortex-A8 in a phone isnt going to make Symbians UI perform 25% more smoothly and be more useful than the IPhone 4s 800MHz Cortex-A8. Its fraking CE!

What does the item being consummer electronics have to do with it? Here we go with a car analogy. Manufactures still like to advertise metrics that mean nothing to the average driver. Be that cylinder counts, skid pad numbers, stopping distance, the latest LED lighting tech or any of a number of other figures/features. Miss average driver may not understand any of that. However that info actually might be useful to some owners.

You may have a point in that the data isn't useful in comparing to other phones running other OS's but it is very useful in comparing one iPhone to the next. IPhones 4 additional RAM is one example where the upgrade has been significant and noteworthy. It is the little bit of info that might justify an upgrade.

In any event I'm a strong advocate of being an informed consummer. I really find it off putting when major companies go out of their way to hide significant info from consummers. Rushing out to buy the latest Apple gadget on release day isn't my MO. I like to understand what I'm getting first. One should have to resort to developer tools to find out what a product is made up of.
post #113 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by reinventnv View Post

Current ipad has 256 mb of ram appl most likly will put 520 som odd mb of ram in it like current iphone then theyll upgrade iphone nd ipod nd the cycle will keep on goin ram/processor/battery life etc

I'm actually hoping that the next generation iPad gets a tablet specific processor. If the rumors about PA Semi being split up into teams doing a tablet processor and a phone processor are true we could see a huge leap in iPad performance and capability. Of course this is rumor but it does make sense, especially if you combine it with all the patents that have been issued to Apple recently with respect to CPU design. If they have taken ARM IP and extended it with their own IP it would be a very interesting development.

The next thing to consider is video bandwidth, here the issue is the rumors of higher resolution displays. I don't think anybody would complain if resolution was increased but that increase bandwidth demands from the GPU. Apple might go with a 1GB array just to make sure the GPU has the access it needs.

In any event back to the custom CPU. Apple has been very sternly suggesting that developers stay with the SDK tools. The common refrain is "control freak", but let's just imagine that Apple is just trying to save developers a lot of grief. Maybe they know the coming CPUs will be optimized for Objective C and multi core plus that the SoC will support OpenCL on the GPU. Again more speculation but if you accept that even some of this will come true iPad 2 will be very interesting. Or maybe nothing is ready with the new SoC and we get a simple bump.
post #114 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Thats what Id expect from vendors. Besides Flash, is there really anything else non-iPad tablets can feasibly market to the average user?

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post #115 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

7x5 is lab coat sized and can be used by the medical people in the tens of millions of units world wide.

Except that iPads already fit in many existing lab coats and folks selling lab coats have started making that a selling point...
post #116 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobility View Post

Minor correction. NAND Flash or Flash memory not Flash RAM. RAM is useless when it comes to storing your media library or anything for long, really.

If you're going to discuss memory, you have to be specific, otherwise you elicit misunderstandings that frustrate wizard69 and everyone else who's trying to understand what gets posted here.

The phrase "NAND Flash" or "Flash RAM" is misleading since the capitalization in "Flash" is usually construed as referring to Macromedia (now Adobe) Flash, a trademarked product. As I recall it was an amalgam of a predecessor product "FutureSplash", which enjoyed an evolution as tortured as its name.

On the other hand "flash memory" is a generic term for a type of EEPROM - mass storage not to be confused with a computer's RAM. Its name was derived from the method by which it's erased - analogous to a camera flash. The correct way to label it is "flash memory" but "flash drive" or "solid state drive" is OK too. None of these terms are trademarked so capitalization is unnecessary. It's accurate, more descriptive, and less likely to mislead.

Flash memory is different from RAM in many ways, most significantly in the way a computer accesses its data as wizard69 explained. Also, flash EEPROM has a finite life - most are not rated for more than a hundred thousand or so write cycles. If RAM were so limited, your computer would wear out before it finished booting.

"Flash", flash, and RAM... they're all different.
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post #117 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I'm actually hoping that the next generation iPad gets a tablet specific processor.

What do you think would be the difference? It strikes me as unlikely that the iPhone 5 gets a single core Cortex A9 while the iPad 2 gets a dual core Cortex A9.

Quote:
The next thing to consider is video bandwidth, here the issue is the rumors of higher resolution displays. I don't think anybody would complain if resolution was increased but that increase bandwidth demands from the GPU. Apple might go with a 1GB array just to make sure the GPU has the access it needs.

Screen resolution is more likely driven by the desire to be more or less compatible with the iPhone via scaling that doesn't look too sucky. Maybe 1920x1280? Still a bigish jump and not all that great for scaling existing iPad apps I think. Have to think about that a little.
post #118 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

What do you think would be the difference? It strikes me as unlikely that the iPhone 5 gets a single core Cortex A9 while the iPad 2 gets a dual core Cortex A9.

I don't know what is exactly up at Apple but the rumor was that PA Semi was split into two groups with one focused on building a tablet specific processor. How good that rumor is, is unknown.

As to iPhone 5 and iPad 2 and what processors they get I would think there would have to be a split sometime in the future if only because adding more power to an iPhone will at some point run up against a battery issue. It is highly unlikely that the iPhone will get bigger and battery technology isn't advancing that fast so does it make sense to saddle a family of iPads with a processor that is limited in performance to go into an iPhone? Besides a single core Cortex A9 would still be an excellent upgrade for an iPhone.

On the other hand iPad has a bigger battery and a larger display to drive, plus the apps are richer. So Ipad could really put a dual processor Cortex A9 to work.
Quote:
Screen resolution is more likely driven by the desire to be more or less compatible with the iPhone via scaling that doesn't look too sucky. Maybe 1920x1280? Still a bigish jump and not all that great for scaling existing iPad apps I think. Have to think about that a little.

I actually doubt that very much. First I believe that iPad will expand into a family of differently sized devices. That would be a unit with a larger screen and another with a smaller. Apple will pick the screen resolutions that allow it to build a competitive product. They don't need to double the linear resolution at all, but on the other hand they would only be going to 264ppi if they did. Contrary to popular belief I don't think the making of the screen is a problem at all. Rather I believe the issue is with driving the screen. Such high resolution would impact the GPU and bandwidth to RAM significantly. This in and of itself would result in the need for a different processor than what is in the iPhone.

So lets say the new iPad does get higher resolution, what ever it is doesn't matter as the result is the same more demand on the memory and the GPU. What is interesting here is that Apple has been publishing a lot of patents over the last few years with respect to CPU and GPU technology. So you have to ask why is Apple doing research into new 3D processor technology, and enhanced CPU's. Well it is pretty obvious such tech won't be going into Intel hardware and it doesn't make sense to battle against ATI or NVIDIA. So where is the fruits of all this research going? More so the A4 is pretty much a Samsung IP processor with a little Apple/Intrinsity thrown in. So If we don't see a little PA Semi magic in a processor soon Apple is going to look a bit silly spending all that money on PA Semi. In the end I don't know what Apple has coming in iPad 2, SoC wise, but the timing seems right for a big update.
post #119 of 121
Softbank, the mobile carrier for iPads and iPhones in Japan, has announced that from December 3rd you can get a 16GB iPad 3G for free with a two-year contract that runs a little more than $50.

This will certainly help widen the iPad's popularity here, adding to sales for 2011.

 

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post #120 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Softbank, the mobile carrier for iPads and iPhones in Japan, has announced that from December 3rd you can get a 16GB iPad 3G for free with a two-year contract that runs a little more than $50.

This will certainly help widen the iPad's popularity here, adding to sales for 2011.

Granted we're dealing with a relatively strong yen for the purposes of conversion to dollars, but that's still $1,200 over the course of the contract. This will be seen as an attractive deal in Japan?
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