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In battle of iPad vs. Android-based Galaxy Tab, 85% prefer Apple - Page 4

post #121 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Along with a couple of iPads and NOOKcolors...



Note: Try Not To Be Envious - Hater!

I can understand having those three.

I have an iPad, and a Kobo ebook reader. If I'm reading ePubs, I'll usually use the Kobo.

That said, I could also occasionally use a 7 inch tablet. I'd prefer an iPad or iPod Touch in that size as I could use my existing apps. I tried the Tab and didn't care for it.

If I could only have one tablet, it would be the iPad as some tasks need that screen size. But there's no one device that's right all the time.
post #122 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcompuser View Post

But there's no one device that's right all the time.

Well said... I currently have 8 portable devices(two of which I carry everyday). Im a tech geek and never really buy with respect to my needs. I simply buy because I might find a particular device intriguing.

I certainly didn't need the MacBook Air, but Im fascinated by its design and portability - so I bought one. Same with my iPads...
post #123 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDjinn View Post

I'm sure the iPad *is* preferred, but a survey of 65 people has a margin of error of like +/- 25% or something.

Lemme put it this way: Political polls generally survey at least 400 voters, and even then the MoE is around 5%; to drop it down to 3% they have to bump it up to around 1,000 voters.


Yeah 65 respondents is pretty lame. I'm no Android fan but given the fact that the iPad was the first to market, got crazy press, and is actually living up to its hype, makes total sense why it would crush the Galaxy in such a survey. Though the galaxy is the first real iPad competitor...............many farts came before it and stole some of its shine.
post #124 of 161
Even Family Feud surveys 100 people!
post #125 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Sad... So Very Very Sad to see you constantly contradict yourself in the same post.

Note: Each does indeed mean Individual, which is exactly what I stated.

EACH –1. every one of two or more considered individually or one by one.

You said you had three each, last time you spouted off on the three tablets.. That means nine total. No wiggle room.

Where's the contradiction in my post? Your response saying there is one is merely a form of alternate reality creation.

Your lack of command of the english language is only approached by your internationally fungible memory and the disregard and disrespect you show your fellow posters. It's pathetic.
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post #126 of 161
I hope this thread goes on forever, alternating posts from people belittling the sample size and posts from daHarder explaining why "three each" means "three total."
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post #127 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by alma View Post

It is not limited to military usage. Instead, it is standard English usage:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/each

Noun
each (plural eaches)
An individual item: the least quantitative unit in a grouping.

Example:

2007, David E. Mulcahy, Eaches or Pieces Order Fulfillment, Design, and Operations Handbook, CRC Press, ISBN 978-0-8493-3522-8, page 385:

"An each, piece, single item, or individual item package."




Why do you respond to the trolls?

Wow. You looked up the word and still got its correct usage wrong. That's got to be embarrassing.
post #128 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I hope this thread goes on forever, alternating posts from people belittling the sample size and posts from daHarder explaining why "three each" means "three total."

This thread is going on forever... all the comments from every story are starting to meld into one... soon every discussion will be about the definition of "each".

[btw - I'm in the camp that believes if 3 people say they have 3 each of something then there are 9 items... it makes me believe that if DaHarder can get enough people to say that the sky is green that it will indeed be green]

On point... we love our iPad... as opposed to DaHarder, my Wife and I only have 1 iPad total... not 1 each. My Wife tried the GT and found it too small for the stuff she likes to do on the iPad.
Hmmmmmm...
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Hmmmmmm...
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post #129 of 161
Concerning the original post. "Love me, love me, say that you love me, tell me what I want to hear". Otherwise it was rather pathetic. AI has informative posts, posts like this one (Blah!), and troll baiting posts often posted by Daniel Eran Dilger. I like the troll baiting posts because they often bring forth my favorite troll, DaHarder, who often manages to hijack a post. But not in this case, in this case the hijacking and troll baiting started with a post by:

nvidia2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
Those crazy 15%!
One of them was DaHarder...

DaHarder ignored this but responded to a post by RayInHou

DaHarder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayInHou
Exactly.... 65!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's no statistal poll by a long shot... it's just for headlines... shame on AppleInsider for posting such crap...

shame shame shame!!!!

Shit, we all love Apple.... but this is just stupid.



Well Posted... Enough Said!

I agree with both of them. The attack was then continued by:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
One of them was DaHarder...

Yea, and his family "bought 3 each" .....

and

iStud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
One of them was DaHarder...

I bet he forged his IP address 9 times.

Finally, DaHarder took the bait.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee
Yea, and his family "bought 3 each" .....

Along with a couple of iPads and NOOKcolors...

Picture omitted to protect the peanut gallery

Note: Try Not To Be Envious - Hater!

I left out the picture DaHarder posted since it traumatized so many people and will only note that it was a 1024x768 photo taken with a Sony DSC-H55 and was photohopped yesterday at 21:57 twelve minutes after it was taken. Then it was posted on mobileread.com and linked from there to AI at 07:25 today. The troll baiting continued and there were complaints about the font he used for his name as well as complaints about the size of the photo. I'll admit that the size bothered me since I had to reach all the way down to the lower right corner to resize my Safari window. I have read that it is easier to do this if your are using another operating system. At 08:57 DaHarder modified his post replacing the photo with a 640x480 photo linked from imageshack.com. I thought the photo was well done and I liked the font so I grabbed a copy of the 1024x768 photo from post #46. I would like to thank nvidia2008, Da Harder, and others for their contributions.
post #130 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

People make those sorts of arguments all the time. One that's been popping up recently is that tablets/iOS devices will displace "traditional" computers in a couple of years

Displace implies replacement. I don't think devices like the iPad will displace PC's, but I think it's clear that within a couple of years portable devices like the iPad (and I think the iOS will easily dominate this category) will [i]eclipse[i] and outsell traditional computers.

Easily. It's a no brainer. In fact the pace of this is much faster than I anticipated!

That doesn't mean that traditional computers will go away or cease to exist - they will still have their place (I'm not getting rid of mine) - but they will no longer dominate as they do today. There are far more people out there (especially world wide) who only need something like an iPad vs. those of us who also desire something more powerful as a computing device.
post #131 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

If anything, your size argument simply suggests that the Tab is a rip-off since it costs about the same and only has 1/2 the screen area.

I'm not sure why you even bother trying to be logical and reasonable to the likes of him - your points, including this one, more than likely sailed right over his head (likely more out of stubbornness than ignorance).
post #132 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

FFS DaHarder your pic is screwing up my page zooming on my iPad. Smaller pls

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

A 1024 X 768 pic is causing your iPad display issues... Really?

Note: My iPad (nor any other device) experiences no such issues... Oh Well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alma View Post

I wonder how it looks on the Galaxy Tab?

Da Harder? What's the verdict? Can the browser render it properly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Love It... It's fast, fun, beautifully made, well-rpiced, and I look forward to rooting it ASAP.

Note: Could you please delete the [IMG] line in your post as there are those who claim that it's causing page rendering issues on their devices.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by alma View Post

Done. I deleted the image the in the post for the benefit of those using devices that could not render it properly.

Come on now, Alma and DaHarder, you know there are no "rendering issues", please do not FUD.

On iOS devices it displays fine, but because the pic is so big it causes it to expand the page horizontally unnecessarily , so that the default zoom in iOS is zoomed out more to fit the whole page content.
post #133 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Model A1181 View Post

Concerning the original post. "Love me, love me, say that you love me, tell me what I want to hear". Otherwise it was rather pathetic. AI has informative posts, posts like this one (Blah!), and troll baiting posts often posted by Daniel Eran Dilger. I like the troll baiting posts because they often bring forth my favorite troll, DaHarder, who often manages to hijack a post. But not in this case, in this case the hijacking and troll baiting started with a post by:

nvidia2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
Those crazy 15%!
One of them was DaHarder...

Firstly, I merely was being light-hearted because it is clear DaHarder would eventually jump on this thread sooner or later. I did not personally attack nor insult him.

Secondly, with regard to the image he posted, I really don't mind the images it is actually interesting to see the different sizes and screens etc, you don't see them like that all together even on the tech blogs. DaHarder is clearly a tech enthusiast, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just as a matter of forum courtesy I suggested it be reduced so it fits in the normal page flow, as it would allow everyone to enjoy this forum more.
post #134 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by alma View Post

What's your screen resolution? I use 1920 x 1080p. In fact, I used my multi-touch pad to enlarge the image in the browser so it fits perfectly on my screen, with plenty of room left for the taskbar on the side.

Are these old low-res monitors the problem? The image is said to render fine on the Galaxy Tab. Is it a problem only on old-school 4x3 monitors?

Or what?

Again, the idea of "rendering issues" because of 4x3, in other words implying the iPad is somehow deficient, is ludicrous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

Okay, it was funny the other day about DaHarder being one of two people in line to get a W7 phone. Now the humor is getting a bit worn.

Fair enough, since it seems to cause so much controversy I'll attempt not to make such comments in the future. It's all too easy though sometimes.
post #135 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

65 is a small number, but it appears that even with this number, the results are significant.

With a sample of 65, the error margin is +/- 12%.
http://www.raosoft.com/samplesize.html

So we know that somewhere between 73% and 97% prefer the iPad (given a certain probability). That's a meaningful result, even with the large error margin.

If they had chosen a larger sample, the error margin would have been smaller, but the result wouldn't have been different - the iPad wins by a wide margin.

The real problem is not the size of the sample, but how representative it is. For example, if they sampled a group of people coming out of the Apple Store, the answer would have been very different than if they sampled people coming out of 'Geeks 'R Us'. Particularly with these small samples, you have to be VERY careful to avoid sample bias.

I should have added one thing here - since it's obvious that few of the people here understand statistics - even at a basic level.

The 73-97% range above is based on a confidence level. Typically, the assumption is that you want a 95% confidence level for surveys like this. So saying 73-97% range means that if you repeated the survey an infinite number of times, the result would fall between 73 and 97% about 95% of the time.

95% is a common, but arbitrary number. One could easily say that for purposes of a given study, you don't need that high of a confidence level. Based on the above information, if you're happy to be 80% confident in the results, the range would be something like 80-90%. There is no definite number, nor is there a definite range. It all depends on what you're hoping to achieve.

In addition, the data point given is always chosen as the center point, so is the most probable result.

In this case, the data was sufficient to indicate that the sample (which may or may not have been a representative sample - that's a different issue) overwhelmingly preferred the iPad by somewhere between 3:1 and 30:1 with about 7:1 being the most probable result. That is more than sufficient to prove the point.
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post #136 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

It is a simple concept you're espousing. Unfortunately it's completely incorrect. In your sentence the word "each" is a pronoun which qualifies the noun (we). You seem to simply be bullheaded about this. And stop blaming the military. I've spent a few years at sub base Bangor, keyport torpedo station and several air force bases in Germany. Vernacular in the military is used to avoid confusion not create it.

The best part is that even his final explanation shows 9 instead of 3.

DaHarder>If you had said "My family have 1 each of the 3 products in question", that would have been very clear. Saying "we bought 3 each" makes it sound like each of you has 1 of all 3 or a total of 9 devices. I really don't see how you can't see why you were interpreted in such a matter, unless you're being obstinate on purpose.
post #137 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

In this case, the data was sufficient to indicate that the sample (which may or may not have been a representative sample - that's a different issue) overwhelmingly preferred the iPad by somewhere between 3:1 and 30:1 with about 7:1 being the most probable result. That is more than sufficient to prove the point.

The most I'm willing to get from this limited sample size is that in that given location (supposedly the survey was done outside a "national retail store"; feels more like a grade school survey to me...) and out of 65 responses, 85% of people preferred the iPad.

What gets me the most is that Gene Munster refuses to disclose any information about his methodology in gathering his data. Seems sketchy to me.
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post #138 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

The most I'm willing to get from this limited sample size is that in that given location (supposedly the survey was done outside a "national retail store"; feels more like a grade school survey to me...) and out of 65 responses, 85% of people preferred the iPad.

What gets me the most is that Gene Munster refuses to disclose any information about his methodology in gathering his data. Seems sketchy to me.

As I said - the survey's methodology is questionable because there's no way of knowing if the sample is representative of the potential tablet-buying population as a whole.

My point is that there's nothing wrong with the statistics. You CAN make a reasonable assumption as to the validity of the results even for a sample size of 65. The question of whether the sample is representative is an entirely different question.
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post #139 of 161
For me, I'd get the Galaxy Tab over this current iteration of the Galaxy Tab. The size difference of both has its pros and cons, the Apple giving you more screen real estate, but the Tab, much more portable. However, the one thing that's not at all debatable, is that the Tab offers more features. Adobe flash for web browsing...definitely comes in handy with certain flash sites, and sites that have flash or flash content, whereas, on the Ipad, you may not be able to pull up the site at all, or you will be missing content on that site. And the other, that I know of, off hand, is that the Tab has 2 cameras, while the Ipad has none.

This has always been my argument against the Iphone. It seems to always have less features than it's biggest competitor at the time. Right now, it doesn't have adobe flash, as one major con, imo. If Apple would just consider at least matching it's major competitor, feature for feature, I'd definitely give them another try. One thing that Iphone has done, is to get Mapquest Navigation for free, which can compete with the free Google Maps Navigation of Android.
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post #140 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankeith513 View Post

For me, I'd get the Galaxy Tab over this current iteration of the Galaxy Tab. The size difference of both has its pros and cons, the Apple giving you more screen real estate, but the Tab, much more portable. However, the one thing that's not at all debatable, is that the Tab offers more features. Adobe flash for web browsing...definitely comes in handy with certain flash sites, and sites that have flash or flash content, whereas, on the Ipad, you may not be able to pull up the site at all, or you will be missing content on that site. And the other, that I know of, off hand, is that the Tab has 2 cameras, while the Ipad has none.

Well considering Adobe couldn't produce a full, working version of Flash until this past summer for mobile devices and even this version eats batteries, I don't blame Apple for not having it. The iPad has been figured for awhile to have 2 cameras coming w/the iPad 2 early next year. Remember that the Tab is reacting to the iPad and it isn't surprising that it has features the iPad doesn't. Apple doesn't refresh their product lines as often as other companies, but they have only been selling the iPad since April and it took till November to get a real competitor out.

Welcome to AI BTW. And I think you meant "I'd get the Galaxy Tab over this current iteration of the iPad"
post #141 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post

think you meant "I'd get the Galaxy Tab over this current iteration of the iPad"

Are you sure he isn't from an alternate dimension where the his side's Galaxy Tab is much better than our Galaxy Tab?
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post #142 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Are you sure he isn't from an alternate dimension where the his side's Galaxy Tab is much better than our Galaxy Tab?

Tabnormal! The preferred gadget of Walternate!
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post #143 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Model A1181 View Post

Concerning the original post. "Love me, love me, say that you love me, tell me what I want to hear". Otherwise it was rather pathetic. AI has informative posts, posts like this one (Blah!), and troll baiting posts often posted by Daniel Eran Dilger. I like the troll baiting posts because they often bring forth my favorite troll, DaHarder, who often manages to hijack a post. But not in this case, in this case the hijacking and troll baiting started with a post by:

nvidia2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
Those crazy 15%!
One of them was DaHarder...

DaHarder ignored this but responded to a post by RayInHou

DaHarder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayInHou
Exactly.... 65!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's no statistal poll by a long shot... it's just for headlines... shame on AppleInsider for posting such crap...

shame shame shame!!!!

Shit, we all love Apple.... but this is just stupid.



Well Posted... Enough Said!

I agree with both of them. The attack was then continued by:

newbee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
One of them was DaHarder...

Yea, and his family "bought 3 each" .....

and

iStud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
One of them was DaHarder...

I bet he forged his IP address 9 times.

Finally, DaHarder took the bait.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee
Yea, and his family "bought 3 each" .....

Along with a couple of iPads and NOOKcolors...

Picture omitted to protect the peanut gallery

Note: Try Not To Be Envious - Hater!

I left out the picture DaHarder posted since it traumatized so many people and will only note that it was a 1024x768 photo taken with a Sony DSC-H55 and was photohopped yesterday at 21:57 twelve minutes after it was taken. Then it was posted on mobileread.com and linked from there to AI at 07:25 today. The troll baiting continued and there were complaints about the font he used for his name as well as complaints about the size of the photo. I'll admit that the size bothered me since I had to reach all the way down to the lower right corner to resize my Safari window. I have read that it is easier to do this if your are using another operating system. At 08:57 DaHarder modified his post replacing the photo with a 640x480 photo linked from imageshack.com. I thought the photo was well done and I liked the font so I grabbed a copy of the 1024x768 photo from post #46. I would like to thank nvidia2008, Da Harder, and others for their contributions.


Great post. +1
post #144 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by سیب View Post

Great post. +1

Hmm -1
post #145 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post

Well considering Adobe couldn't produce a full, working version of Flash until this past summer for mobile devices and even this version eats batteries, I don't blame Apple for not having it. The iPad has been figured for awhile to have 2 cameras coming w/the iPad 2 early next year. Remember that the Tab is reacting to the iPad and it isn't surprising that it has features the iPad doesn't. Apple doesn't refresh their product lines as often as other companies, but they have only been selling the iPad since April and it took till November to get a real competitor out.

Welcome to AI BTW. And I think you meant "I'd get the Galaxy Tab over this current iteration of the iPad"

Apple makes a great product, but they always purposely are behind in features that are already out on other devices. Starting with first Iphone....no 3G, no copy n paste, no multitasking, no custom ringtones. All of these features were available with other leading devices..BEFORE the IPhone was released. It took over a year to decide to add video recording, copy n paste, etc. Multitasking was just recently added. And now, because Steve Jobs said no to Adobe Flash, we cannot have a full browsing experience on an Ipad or IPhone. You say Flash eats up battery, but I know if we occasionally use it on certain websites, it shouldn't effect the battery too much. And quite frankly, obviously its better to have that option....as an option, than to not have that ability at all.
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post #146 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankeith513 View Post

Apple makes a great product, but they always purposely are behind in features that are already out on other devices. Starting with first Iphone....no 3G, no copy n paste, no multitasking, no custom ringtones. All of these features were available with other leading devices..BEFORE the IPhone was released. It took over a year to decide to add video recording, copy n paste, etc. Multitasking was just recently added. And now, because Steve Jobs said no to Adobe Flash, we cannot have a full browsing experience on an Ipad or IPhone. You say Flash eats up battery, but I know if we occasionally use it on certain websites, it shouldn't effect the battery too much. And quite frankly, obviously its better to have that option....as an option, than to not have that ability at all.

And yet somehow all those modestly selling smartphones with more "features", which were poorly implemented and difficult to use, somehow morphed into copies of the iPhone, and now smartphone sales are exploding.

I think it's sort of bizarre to talk about Apple being "behind" with the original iPhone. It was huge revolution that we haven't seen the end of, and it blew away everything else on the market. Of course, people at the time did talk about the cool things their Windows or Palm or Nokia phones could do that the iPhone couldn't, but we've seen how that worked out.
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post #147 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

And yet somehow all those modestly selling smartphones with more "features", which were poorly implemented and difficult to use, somehow morphed into copies of the iPhone, and now smartphone sales are exploding.

I think it's sort of bizarre to talk about Apple being "behind" with the original iPhone. It was huge revolution that we haven't seen the end of, and it blew away everything else on the market. Of course, people at the time did talk about the cool things their Windows or Palm or Nokia phones could do that the iPhone couldn't, but we've seen how that worked out.


Nice comments, but how about addressing the points that I said. The original Iphone was definitely revolutionary in some ways, buy way behind in features that it didn't have, that other phones already had, like 3G, custom ringtones, multi tasking, video recording, and copy n paste, just to name a few. You can sense fan boys by their comments. They usually do their best to avoid addressing specifically stated points that prove anything negative about their product, instead of being objective and admitting both the pros and cons. IOS products have both impressed me, and irritated me by putting out a high quality product with an excellently, smooth and simplistic os/ui .......yet each device...as great as it is...was and is lacking in some features that the competitors have.
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post #148 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankeith513 View Post

Nice comments, but how about addressing the points that I said. The original Iphone was definitely revolutionary in some ways, buy way behind in features that it didn't have, that other phones already had, like 3G, custom ringtones, multi tasking, video recording, and copy n paste, just to name a few. You can sense fan boys by their comments. They usually do their best to avoid addressing specifically stated points that prove anything negative about their product, instead of being objective and admitting both the pros and cons. IOS products have both impressed me, and irritated me by putting out a high quality product with an excellently, smooth and simplistic os/ui .......yet each device...as great as it is...was and is lacking in some features that the competitors have.

My point being that talking about "features" misses the point if those features are poorly implemented and hard to use, and are moreover are irrelevant when a product completely changes the terms of competition.

Windows phones had pretty much all the features you could want, and now that iteration of phone has been completely abandoned, replaced by a phone that actually lacks some of the very same features as the iPhone did on release (cut and paste, multitasking). Nokia is a feature king, and now their hemorrhaging market share and floundering around to figure out a way forward. Google radically changed up Android once they got a look at the iPhone. The iPhone wasn't revolutionary "in some ways", it was revolutionary in every way that mattered-- which is why all those button encrusted, hard to use, poorly selling feature laden "smart phones" are done and buried.

By the way, you can usually sense an insipid little douchebag without a very strong argument to make by their reliance on yelling "fanboy."
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post #149 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

My point being that talking about "features" misses the point if those features are poorly implemented and hard to use, and are moreover are irrelevant when a product completely changes the terms of competition.

Windows phones had pretty much all the features you could want, and now that iteration of phone has been completely abandoned, replaced by a phone that actually lacks some of the very same features as the iPhone did on release (cut and paste, multitasking). Nokia is a feature king, and now their hemorrhaging market share and floundering around to figure out a way forward. Google radically changed up Android once they got a look at the iPhone. The iPhone wasn't revolutionary "in some ways", it was revolutionary in every way that mattered-- which is why all those button encrusted, hard to use, poorly selling feature laden "smart phones" are done and buried.

By the way, you can usually sense an insipid little douchebag without a very strong argument to make by their reliance on yelling "fanboy."

Ok, so let me say this again, my only point was that the Iphone, and every iteration of it, lacked various features. Are you saying that it is ok because the Iphone itself was and is such a great device? It was ok not to have 3G, multitasking, copy n paste, custom ringtones, video recording on the first Iphone and no multitasking, etc on the second one? That doesn't make sense. It was only ok in that people still liked the phone, but the question is, why is it always lacking? Did you see how with each generation of Iphone, they added those features? Features again, that were already industry standards? Why did it always take them so long to add these features? Are you saying that it is ok? Obviously, Apple added them, so even they felt the need for these features, but they just always seem late to the game. And by the way, I have a strong argument, and I made it, by putting out clear specifics, but you seem to avoid them.

Again, I think Apple puts out great products, but my question is WHY do they wait so long to add the features? And is that not a negative thing? In my book, it's not a great thing to be behind the curve in anything. However, again, they obviously did something right, and that's the higher quality of their products, and the almost perfect os/ui.


If these features were so "irrelevant" as you stated above, why does Apple always choose to add these features, even if a year later, then tout these same features that you call "irrelvant"????
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post #150 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankeith513 View Post

Ok, so let me say this again, my only point was that the Iphone, and every iteration of it, lacked various features. Are you saying that it is ok because the Iphone itself was and is such a great device? It was ok not to have 3G, multitasking, copy n paste, custom ringtones, video recording on the first Iphone and no multitasking, etc on the second one? That doesn't make sense. It was only ok in that people still liked the phone, but the question is, why is it always lacking? Did you see how with each generation of Iphone, they added those features? Features again, that were already industry standards? Why did it always take them so long to add these features? Are you saying that it is ok? Obviously, Apple added them, so even they felt the need for these features, but they just always seem late to the game. And by the way, I have a strong argument, and I made it, by putting out clear specifics, but you seem to avoid them.

Again, I think Apple puts out great products, but my question is WHY do they wait so long to add the features? And is that not a negative thing? In my book, it's not a great thing to be behind the curve in anything. However, again, they obviously did something right, and that's the higher quality of their products, and the almost perfect os/ui.


If these features were so "irrelevant" as you stated above, why does Apple always choose to add these features, even if a year later, then tout these same features that you call "irrelvant"????

Because Apple is interested in getting getting it right-- they'll include functionality if it's genuinely useful and if the implementation is pretty seamless and it doesn't negatively impact another area that Apple deems important. Sometimes, that means waiting until the supporting tech is mature enough to make the trade-offs worth it, as in the case of 3G and battery life.

That doesn't mean I agree with their every choice; it does mean that I can be pretty certain that when Apple does offer a particular feature it will be well thought out and easy to use. I can also be pretty confident that Apple won't lard their devices with "features" that do little more than add a bullet-point to the box copy.

Who gives a shit, at this point, if a given Windows phone had video recording? It apparently sucked, since nobody used it. Why worry about RIM multitasking, if there were no tasks worth doing beyond email? What use is a Nokia phone with copy and paste, if it's too hard to use, or the functionality is lost in a sea of terrible design decisions?

You want to claim that Apple was somehow "behind the curve" on these things while blithely ignoring just how poorly they performed on competing platforms at the time of the iPhone's release. A feature isn't a feature just because you can describe it or it exists, it has to be genuinely useful, function well, be reasonably easy to access, and not have undue negative consequences. "Smart phones" prior to the iPhone, were such a swamp of engineer driven "features", unencumbered by basic standards of usability, as to render these types of comparison meaningless. They were that way because there was no competition with a better idea, and because it was simply accepted that these devices were the provenance of über-geeks, with a steep learning curve and absurd UI conventions the price of admission. Or have you forgotten? It's easy to forget, in that the inexplicably feature starved iPhone has completely swept that model aside.

Let me turn this around, since you seem to think this is an Apple specific issue: why did everyone else wait so long to make a touch based phone with a dead simple app delivery system, an excellent web browser and fun, easy to use UI? Those are the features that strike me as pertinent, why did every other phone manufacturer withhold those features for so long?

MS and RIM and Nokia and Palm had many, many years to add the features people apparently really wanted (given the explosion in smart phone use once everyone signed onto the Apple model). Why no iPhone equivalent? Why so far behind the curve? Doesn't it frustrate you, how all those other manufacturers do that?
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post #151 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Because Apple is interested in getting getting it right-- they'll include functionality if it's genuinely useful and if the implementation is pretty seamless and it doesn't negatively impact another area that Apple deems important. Sometimes, that means waiting until the supporting tech is mature enough to make the trade-offs worth it, as in the case of 3G and battery life.

That doesn't mean I agree with their every choice; it does mean that I can be pretty certain that when Apple does offer a particular feature it will be well thought out and easy to use. I can also be pretty confident that Apple won't lard their devices with "features" that do little more than add a bullet-point to the box copy.

Who gives a shit, at this point, if a given Windows phone had video recording? It apparently sucked, since nobody used it. Why worry about RIM multitasking, if there were no tasks worth doing beyond email? What use is a Nokia phone with copy and paste, if it's too hard to use, or the functionality is lost in a sea of terrible design decisions?

You want to claim that Apple was somehow "behind the curve" on these things while blithely ignoring just how poorly they performed on competing platforms at the time of the iPhone's release. A feature isn't a feature just because you can describe it or it exists, it has to be genuinely useful, function well, be reasonably easy to access, and not have undue negative consequences. "Smart phones" prior to the iPhone, were such a swamp of engineer driven "features", unencumbered by basic standards of usability, as to render these types of comparison meaningless. They were that way because there was no competition with a better idea, and because it was simply accepted that these devices were the provenance of über-geeks, with a steep learning curve and absurd UI conventions the price of admission. Or have you forgotten? It's easy to forget, in that the inexplicably feature starved iPhone has completely swept that model aside.

Let me turn this around, since you seem to think this is an Apple specific issue: why did everyone else wait so long to make a touch based phone with a dead simple app delivery system, an excellent web browser and fun, easy to use UI? Those are the features that strike me as pertinent, why did every other phone manufacturer withhold those features for so long?

MS and RIM and Nokia and Palm had many, many years to add the features people apparently really wanted (given the explosion in smart phone use once everyone signed onto the Apple model). Why no iPhone equivalent? Why so far behind the curve? Doesn't it frustrate you, how all those other manufacturers do that?


What I see in your argument, is that you seem to feel that the features that I mentioned that were lacking on the Iphone, just didn't work well on the other smartphones. Well, first and foremost, to me, Windows Mobile sucked badly, so I won't even argue about them. However, Palm and RIM didn't suck. And they offered the video recording, picture messaging, copy n paste, custom ringtones, that Apple didn't offer in 3G, and those features didn't suck at all. RIM also offered multitasking, and 3G, and those didn't suck either, infact, RIM was the number one smartphone maker in America. So, I don't get your point at all.

Regarding the point you made that it took others soo long to make such an excellent touch, and easy to use os/ui, simplistic os, and great browser? Well, it seems that Apple was more innovative and just did it better than everyone else, and before everyone else. And I agree with that, but that doesn't have anything to do with the features that I mentioned that they do lack, and the fact that they always lack certain features that are standard on other leading smartphones. I will tell you, I own an Iphone and and android, and I like things about both. Iphone has the smoothest touchscreen, the smoothest os, and the easiest os to use. However, Android, offers all of the features that I want, and contrary to your argument, android has done a pretty good job with all of the features that they have. So, I am actually saying that I like the Iphone, but pointing out obvious negative things that are factual, such as the lack of features compared to the competitor's feature set. And yes, a feature set is nothing to brag about, unless it works properly, but from my experiences with RIM and Android, their feature sets do work very well, as noted in their reviews and in the success that they've had. It's not to say that they are without their issues as well, but my complaint here, was with Apple, because to me, if they only kept up with the competition's fully featured options, there probably would be NO competition.
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post #152 of 161
Why do people that own an iPhone *and* Android come here to say how much they are frustrated by this or that of the iPhone? Why tell us this? I'm starting to not see the point. Just use your Android, no one is going to be offended.

If you want a reason, it is because Apple operates like this. Use it or don't. Buy it or don't. They will accept feedback and adjust, but always at their pace. Their philosophy is that there are essentially no competitors. It's blue ocean thinking. Yes, it can be extremely frustrating, and they add features only incrementally but also take away features incrementally. For example, why is Bluetooth file transfer still not done on iPhone? Nobody knows.

Apologies for my tone but I get confused by people that go to Android and then say, oh, but why is Apple etc etc.

There are definitely features that are not on any Apple products. For example, why no full video mirroring on iPhone and iPad? I absolutely need that for demos and presentations, that's why I jailbreak.
post #153 of 161
It is also about compromise. It is actually something Apple does not do. No removable batteries. Killer to some, but for others, it's a sleeker product with better performance. Makes all other phones seem so clunky.

No Flash. Only once this issue is raised do we start to realise how horrible Flash is for playback and the performance and security issues it causes. Sure, it could still be implemented even though it is not *that* good... But no, that's a compromise Apple will not make.

This is why it is healthy to have and use non-Apple products and services. How can we expect one company to do everything right by us, and everything that we want? I know it is sometimes so close, yet so far. That's why technology and people and services, it's about what's best for you. Apple is there to blaze the trail. But others are also needed to build the roads and towns and railway lines and so on.

This is actually why the iPad and iPhone has been so successful. All shortcomings are given a chance at least to be addressed through a managed third-party application system. Safari is lousy compared now to AtomicWeb on iPad. iOS has a nice balance of control and flexibility. It still does not do everything you want, that's why there's Android, Macs, PCs, etc.
post #154 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Why do people that own an iPhone *and* Android come here to say how much they are frustrated by this or that of the iPhone? Why tell us this? I'm starting to not see the point. Just use your Android, no one is going to be offended.

If you want a reason, it is because Apple operates like this. Use it or don't. Buy it or don't. They will accept feedback and adjust, but always at their pace. Their philosophy is that there are essentially no competitors. It's blue ocean thinking. Yes, it can be extremely frustrating, and they add features only incrementally but also take away features incrementally. For example, why is Bluetooth file transfer still not done on iPhone? Nobody knows.

Apologies for my tone but I get confused by people that go to Android and then say, oh, but why is Apple etc etc.

There are definitely features that are not on any Apple products. For example, why no full video mirroring on iPhone and iPad? I absolutely need that for demos and presentations, that's why I jailbreak.

I came here just to voice my opinion, and point out some of the negative things about an otherwise, exceptional product. Much came out of my little post because someone came on here to defend Apple, and deny all of the obvious negative things that I brought out. As for me, I will continue to use both, as both have things about them I like. My point is in a nutshell, that Apple could easily be the best, without real competition from Android, if they'd give us all of the features without waiting to give it to us in "increments", as you mentioned. I got an Android and said "oh but why is Apple etc etc", because their faults, are more deliberate, whereas, Android just isn't as polished.
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post #155 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Are you sure he isn't from an alternate dimension where the his side's Galaxy Tab is much better than our Galaxy Tab?

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post #156 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankeith513 View Post

My point is in a nutshell, that Apple could easily be the best, without real competition from Android, if they'd give us all of the features without waiting to give it to us in "increments", as you mentioned. I got an Android and said "oh but why is Apple etc etc", because their faults, are more deliberate, whereas, Android just isn't as polished.

The iPhone is arguably already currently the best but by no means perfect.

Android or someone would always be real competition simply because 1 phone can't cover all bases.

Apple provides features in increments because features don't instantaneously happen or there are trade offs in providing these features that Apple prefers not to make. What you are asking for is impossible for any vendor. By the time they are feature complete the market has moved forward and they are no longer feature complete. The features you liked in RIM or whatever that were/are not in the iPhone aren't there isn't because it was not possible to implement in a polished manner but instead were/are not there because APPLE couldn't implement them in a polished manner in the time frame.

Deliberately not providing feature X until it is more polished is the trade off between when it reaches the consumer and whether or not it is polished. Complaining about Apple strategy vs Google seems to miss the point. You can have features sooner with less polish (Android) or you can have features later but more polished (Apple). Throwing more developers on a specific feature beyond a certain point doesn't provide better time to market or more polish.

Do you really think that MS wanted to leave off cut and past in the first iteration of WP7 any more than Apple did? No. Even super rich large companies have to pick and choose which feature sets they can reasonably deliver in any time frame. They don't have an infinite supply of developers to maximize coverage on every feature and EVEN if they did the integration time is exponential.

Are they being "purposeful" in not releasing these features? Yes, because the feature would SUCK if they released them half-baked and by taking resources away from another feature make that SUCK as well.

Did they do it to purposely screw the customer as you seem to insinuate? No.

Why does Google do it? Mostly because Google has been able to get away with beta level capability because it's been free. Google and lack of polish is accepted with the brand and they have a nice halo all their own. Stuff they get away with would get MS or Apple crucified in the tech press. That said 2.2 is pretty good and gingerbread should be better.

Tablet support will likely not be nearly as polished as the iPad but it'll be chock full of features and hardware.
post #157 of 161
Good points. I concur with most of what you've said here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The iPhone is arguably already currently the best but by no means perfect.

Android or someone would always be real competition simply because 1 phone can't cover all bases.

Apple provides features in increments because features don't instantaneously happen or there are trade offs in providing these features that Apple prefers not to make. What you are asking for is impossible for any vendor. By the time they are feature complete the market has moved forward and they are no longer feature complete. The features you liked in RIM or whatever that were/are not in the iPhone aren't there isn't because it was not possible to implement in a polished manner but instead were/are not there because APPLE couldn't implement them in a polished manner in the time frame.

Deliberately not providing feature X until it is more polished is the trade off between when it reaches the consumer and whether or not it is polished. Complaining about Apple strategy vs Google seems to miss the point. You can have features sooner with less polish (Android) or you can have features later but more polished (Apple). Throwing more developers on a specific feature beyond a certain point doesn't provide better time to market or more polish.

Do you really think that MS wanted to leave off cut and past in the first iteration of WP7 any more than Apple did? No. Even super rich large companies have to pick and choose which feature sets they can reasonably deliver in any time frame. They don't have an infinite supply of developers to maximize coverage on every feature and EVEN if they did the integration time is exponential.

Are they being "purposeful" in not releasing these features? Yes, because the feature would SUCK if they released them half-baked and by taking resources away from another feature make that SUCK as well.

Did they do it to purposely screw the customer as you seem to insinuate? No.

Why does Google do it? Mostly because Google has been able to get away with beta level capability because it's been free. Google and lack of polish is accepted with the brand and they have a nice halo all their own. Stuff they get away with would get MS or Apple crucified in the tech press. That said 2.2 is pretty good and gingerbread should be better.

Tablet support will likely not be nearly as polished as the iPad but it'll be chock full of features and hardware.
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post #158 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankeith513 View Post

I came here just to voice my opinion, and point out some of the negative things about an otherwise, exceptional product. Much came out of my little post because someone came on here to defend Apple, and deny all of the obvious negative things that I brought out. As for me, I will continue to use both, as both have things about them I like. My point is in a nutshell, that Apple could easily be the best, without real competition from Android, if they'd give us all of the features without waiting to give it to us in "increments", as you mentioned. I got an Android and said "oh but why is Apple etc etc", because their faults, are more deliberate, whereas, Android just isn't as polished.


We were in a similar situation, with a software product.

While we were adding the features the beta testers wanted, a competitor brought out a similar product with half the features. Then they added features and it was version 2. Then version 3 came out with more features. The income earned allowed them hire more staff and develop quicker.

Spending all our time creating the "perfect" product hurt us and our customers. A mistake we won't make again.
post #159 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcompuser View Post

We were in a similar situation, with a software product.

While we were adding the features the beta testers wanted, a competitor brought out a similar product with half the features. Then they added features and it was version 2. Then version 3 came out with more features. The income earned allowed them hire more staff and develop quicker.

Spending all our time creating the "perfect" product hurt us and our customers. A mistake we won't make again.

Time to market is often key. Unless you're Blizzard.

I might opine that if your competitor had all your features but with half of them semi-broken that probably wouldn't have ended well for them. Unless they was Google.
post #160 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankeith513 View Post

I came here just to voice my opinion, and point out some of the negative things about an otherwise, exceptional product. Much came out of my little post because someone came on here to defend Apple, and deny all of the obvious negative things that I brought out. As for me, I will continue to use both, as both have things about them I like. My point is in a nutshell, that Apple could easily be the best, without real competition from Android, if they'd give us all of the features without waiting to give it to us in "increments", as you mentioned. I got an Android and said "oh but why is Apple etc etc", because their faults, are more deliberate, whereas, Android just isn't as polished.

Fair enough. I am starting to see some people have 2 phones and like certain aspects of both of them.

In any case I think the part highlighted in bold red is where yours and most peoples frustration with Apple is.

What they perceive to be Apple able to, but not wanting to do certain things. But nht's post sums things up. In Apple's case, they prefer to not have something than to have it "just isn't as polished".

On a side note, have you considered that Google not having Android more polished is something deliberate in and of itself? They are known to develop to a certain point and then "release often, release early".

As nht mentions it is actually pretty amazing what they get away with being in perpetual Beta mode for all their "products".
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