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Apple won't allow demos, trials, betas on Mac App Store - Page 3

post #81 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Can you purchase from the devloper's site too and bypass Apple's monetory cut? Even though it's a few mouse clicks away, that's stupid. Come to my store but go some place else to try it before you buy it, huh?!

There is something else at play here that I don't think many people are considering, and that is .... the iTunes gift cards being available anywhere. I know that for me, at least, the fact that I can purchase from Apple without having to divulge any cc info or other private info is huge. I have purchased several thousand $$$ from iTunes that I would not have done otherwise. I now have on my Mac several "trial versions" of software that have limited ability but when they become available from Apple via gift cards I will purchase them all ..... but not before, and I believe that I'm not alone in this category.
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post #82 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doorman. View Post

... The question is whether Apple is going to restrict the installation of the Software only through their Apple Store. Why not - they are doing it already for the phone. This would be really.... monopolistic... and "revolutionary"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Hopefully never. That being said, they like having the power to make choices for you, so I would say a small chance of this happening with Lion and with a much larger chance of it happening in 10.8.

Such nonsense. It's not happening, now or in the future. And the bit about liking, "having the power to make choices for you:" total bullshit.
post #83 of 114
Seems to me that a Mac App Store with restrictions designed to make the purchase and installation of software dead easy and bullet proof (including things like not strewing files in random places and some assurance that any given app won't cause problems or instability) running parallel to the existing application ecosystem (which is what we will get, doomsayers notwithstanding) is ideal.

More experienced users will continue on as they have, seeking out whatever software they want wherever they want. Even if the vendor is only selling on the App Store, that user will know to go to the vendor's web site to check for trial versions, demos or betas, release notes, supporting documentation, etc.

Meanwhile, newer or more fretful users will have a place they can go where they don't have to worry about where the installer went, where the app ended up, trying to run the app from a disk image on their desktop, etc. It also seems likely that, for the kind of app suited to this model, there will potentially a much larger addressable market, since you'll have better discoverability and more people willing to try things out (especially those who have grown accustomed to this model from their smart phones).

Of course each software vendor will have to make a determination as to the efficacy of selling through Apple and having Apple take their cut-- increased sales vs. decreased revenue per sale, somewhat restricted provisioning vs. more exposure, downward price pressure vs. everything else, etc.

Still, can't see where offering some users a very reliable, already proven model for getting new applications is in anyway a negative. Of course, if the model is fundamentally flawed, then it won't be very successful, or it will be entirely populated with crappy little cheap apps that don't do much. At which time I imagine Apple will recalibrate the model.
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post #84 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Such nonsense. It's not happening, now or in the future. And the bit about liking, "having the power to make choices for you:" total bullshit.

I won't be saying anything about the other quote you pulled out, only about mine.
So my question and the fact that I contemplate on possible decisions and future trend and think about the alternatives and possibilities - all that process of thinking and speculation you call with 100% certainty a BS. You are probably very close to Steve that you can claim it with 100% certainty that there is no alternatives. By the way, I still has not heard from you, o great guru, what is the "right" path you (together) with Steve laid for us.
post #85 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doorman. View Post

I won't be saying anything about the other quote you pulled out, only about mine.
So my question and the fact that I contemplate on possible decisions and future trend and think about the alternatives and possibilities - all that process of thinking and speculation you call with 100% certainty a BS. You are probably very close to Steve that you can claim it with 100% certainty that there is no alternatives. By the way, I still has not heard from you, o great guru, what is the "right" path you (together) with Steve laid for us.

Apple's behavior, unlike your thought process on this topic, is rational. That's how we know with 100% certainty that the nonsense you propound won't happen.
post #86 of 114
perhaps software makers wil lower their average selling price as they gain access to a larger potential customer base via an interface which as far as I can tell is enjoying some modest success (on the iOS App store).

Though I would like to see options such as RealBasic has used where one low price gets you the download and a license - if you want a printed manual - that is extra$ - if you need support that is extra$ - there is a lot of software that I might be willing to pay $30 for or even $60 - to have a legal licensed copy with PDF manual or online help - that I do not need to pay $349 for to get a hard copy manual and a DVD and a year of telephone tech support.
post #87 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

  1. (A good note/flashcard app)

Check out Notational Velocity for the notes app.
post #88 of 114
"That's a change from the highly successful iOS App Store policies, in which iPhone and iPad users can download free limited trials of paid software. For example, the popular 99-cent game "Angry Birds" has a "Lite" version that is consistently among the top free iPhone titles."

i just laugh. my intuition was right and weaning myself off apple products is a good thing....
post #89 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

"That's a change from the highly successful iOS App Store policies, in which iPhone and iPad users can download free limited trials of paid software. For example, the popular 99-cent game "Angry Birds" has a "Lite" version that is consistently among the top free iPhone titles."

i just laugh. my intuition was right and weaning myself off apple products is a good thing....

And yet there's nothing to suggest that you or I won't be able to continue to purchase and enjoy any software we like, from any source we deem suitable.

So whatever your reasons of weening yourself off Apple products, they don't seemed to be based on anything here. Which makes your laughter off-putting.
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post #90 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

Apple isn't telling people not to offer demos, it's telling them not to distribute the demos through the store. Why can't people understand that? Just provide a link to your web site for people to download a demo. It's a really easy concept and not a big deal.

Read my comment again. I clearly understand that.

With Steam, there isn't a section for links and stuff, just a description, whether or not it's multiplayer, and a meta score or some junk, so that's where I'm coming from. I don't know how Apple will do it, but you're right though: If there is a section for each app for the developer to show where users can grab a free demo, that helps to solve it.
post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

And yet there's nothing to suggest that you or I won't be able to continue to purchase and enjoy any software we like, from any source we deem suitable.

So whatever your reasons of weening yourself off Apple products, they don't seemed to be based on anything here. Which makes your laughter off-putting.

the writing is on the wall if you care to read it. the future is the STORE and if you ain't in it you don't get installed. (well, unless you want to root or do something like that)
post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bag View Post

I agree, 30% is a great margin for developers, even developers of expensive software, especially if you think of the MAS as compared to a physical retailer. To sell software at any physical retailer (such as something like Best Buy) they not only have to give Best Buy at least 30%, they also have the cost and labor of creating and shipping the physical product with a box, dvd, printed manuals, etc.

I believe Steam takes a 30% cut as well so 30% seems about par. The MAS represents eyeballs and ease of sale.

For a indie dev this means not needing to muck about with credit card transactions, store front, blah blah blah. As long as the app gets approved you're good.

Besides, AFAIK nobody sells software directly from their website cheaper than through their channels...it's a good way of shooting yourself in the foot if they decide to drop you leading to a huge drop in eyeballs.
post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's different because of the reason I said it wouldn't work when they announced the Mac App Store. If they allow any form of trial software, all that happens is that developers put the low cost/free version on the store for publicity and then direct users to their own site for the full version, which means they don't have to pay Apple 30% of the final sale price.

This differs from iOS because you can't get apps from a website but you simply can't put that restriction onto a desktop OS (hopefully). The way Apple have chosen to do this is the only way it will work but it will still have a problem.

When people see commercial software on the App Store, the natural tendency is to try it first as it will be expensive so they are going to visit the company website for the trial but there's nothing stopping the company hosting a cheaper version of the full software on their own site.

For example,

App Store:
Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299

You visit adobe.com for the trial and download it
On the site, they have Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299-30% = $899

So where will you buy it from?

Even in that scenario, Apple will be used for publicity and buyers will feel stupid for buying through the store instead of directly. Obviously Apple can choose to remove developers who sell the commercial software at a lower price on their own site but that might not end well.

They have to try these systems out though to see how they work and I think it will work to some extent as it will be convenient, ad-free, competitive etc so as long as developers don't try to shaft Apple over the 30%, it will be ok. I think they should have reduced the fee though - although the volume is lower, the value is way higher.

After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.
post #94 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

So you'd rather have a store drowning in flaky betas, demos and free crap rather than tested, working software of value?

Are those the only choices?
post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by wealthychef View Post

After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.

There are many companies ...The Omni Group, BeLight, and Ohanaware ... just to name a few, that are not displayed in any retailer that I've seen .... that only can be purchased online without the convenience of an Apple account using gift cards where no cc info has to be shared. I am of the opinion that that, by itself, would be a factor to people like me.
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post #96 of 114
Apple doesn't encourage demos, betas or trialware in the App Store. Free light versions are full-working versions lacking in a few key features, usually. This qualifies as a fully working app. They do not permit apps that expire

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post #97 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by wealthychef View Post

After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.

It's a huge benefit. Apple right now hosts 3rd-party app downloads on it's website. Yet, they are all free or demo/trial versions.

If I want to buy the full version I have to go to the developers website, create an account, enter personal info, enter credit card info and so on. It's a hassle. In addition, one never knows if their personal/cc details are safe and will remain so.

I had always wished that those downloads were available for purchase through Apple's website, not the myriad of 3rd-party sites.
post #98 of 114

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 5/4/12 at 1:04pm
post #99 of 114
My initial reaction to this is it would discourage me from buying the app. There are many apps on iOS that I TRIED first and deleted because I didn't like them. I have bought several, including from the Cydia store (I'm actually fallen behind on that, there is a few more I should purchase since I use and like them...).

Maybe that is different with actual Mac apps. I've actually ...'borrowed' applications on OSX and most I deleted (or use freeware alternatives). I think the two things I've actually bought on OSX I actually did buy blind (snow leopard and office). Final cut...well once I find a job maybe, its pretty expensive :P. But it was nice to try it anyway.

Just initial thoughts so, a bit disorganized and inconclusive.
post #100 of 114
Epic fail. Lack of demos is one of the major problems with the iOS app store. It is way too easy to screw yourself by buying an app then you later find out it sucks.

This isn't so much of a problem b/c iOS apps are cheap. But what about $20+ mac apps? Nobody is going to pay for any kind of expensive app without being able to download and try them out first. You'd have to be an idiot to do that.

If apple carries this retarded practice over to the mac app store, then people will be forced to download demos elsewhere, completely defeating the purpose of a centralized location on your mac for all application purchases and management. If people don't use the mac app store, then apple has failed, plain and simple.

Betas, etc I can understand. But the mac app store needs a way to offer demos. All they need to do is create a system whereby you go back to the app store to pay once you've decided on purchase. I don't see how that is so hard to implement.
post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjourni View Post

Epic fail. Lack of demos is one of the major problems with the iOS app store. It is way too easy to screw yourself by buying an app then you later find out it sucks.

This isn't so much of a problem b/c iOS apps are cheap. But what about $20+ mac apps? Nobody is going to pay for any kind of expensive app without being able to download and try them out first. You'd have to be an idiot to do that.

If apple carries this retarded practice over to the mac app store, then people will be forced to download demos elsewhere, completely defeating the purpose of a centralized location on your mac for all application purchases and management. If people don't use the mac app store, then apple has failed, plain and simple.

Betas, etc I can understand. But the mac app store needs a way to offer demos. All they need to do is create a system whereby you go back to the app store to pay once you've decided on purchase. I don't see how that is so hard to implement.


I'd hardly call the problem major for the App Store. If you screw up and buy the wrong app you're out what $1.99 on the average? Most people spend more on lunch everyday than they do on app store apps.

Yes no one is going to spend $20 plus dollars on an untested app and Apple clearly realizes this which is why they'll push those that want trials to the developers website. I don't need a centralized "trial" store I need a store that makes it drop dead simple for the actual purchase.

I'm still not seeing a cogent argument for why Apple needs to host the demos or trials. They don't plan to be the end all be all in the process.

Personally I plan to demo software from the developer and then buy it on the MAS. The developer then gets more visibility (MAS metrics) and I get easy install and multiple Mac support. I don't need the demo to be MAS easy or even on MAS.

It's not as if consumers will suddenly forget that there's a website for the developer when MAS comes out.
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post #102 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

the writing is on the wall if you care to read it. the future is the STORE and if you ain't in it you don't get installed. (well, unless you want to root or do something like that)

This isn't a very persuasive argument, in that it is based on literally nothing.
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post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

the writing is on the wall if you care to read it. the future is the STORE and if you ain't in it you don't get installed. (well, unless you want to root or do something like that)

LOL. Show me one piece of documentation or one quote that proves this and I'll stop thinking of you as a troll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wealthychef View Post

After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.

To have multi-license applications, infinitely downloadable on all of your computers. Also, a concise place for third-party updates. Finally.

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post #104 of 114
and can be found at http://www.apple.com/downloads/

oh wait, no! apple is not making money with it! rush, close it!
post #105 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodypainter View Post

and can be found at http://www.apple.com/downloads/

oh wait, no! apple is not making money with it! rush, close it!

Well, Apple likely will close it when the Mac App Store actually launches. OR OR OR, hey! Make www.apple.com/downloads the place for demos! I mean, we have plenty of demos there right now, just remove all the real applications, put them in the App Store, and make the Downloads page into www.apple.com/demos

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post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

[Advantages to App store for Macs}

To have multi-license applications, infinitely downloadable on all of your computers. Also, a concise place for third-party updates. Finally.

Add in:
- Ability to buy online with an iTunes gift card (doesn't require credit card)
- Ability for newbies who are uncomfortable finding and buying apps online
- Greater visibility for smaller app vendors (and greater accessibility for users)
- Quick notification of upgrades
- Validation by Apple to reduce risk of malware or other bad behavior
- Requirement to follow Apple programming guidelines (if it works the same way as the iOS App Store) means that apps will, in general, be more stable and reliable

And a lot more.

I don't see it every becoming required and I suspect that many apps will be available both by purchasing them at retail or in the App Store (such as iWork as one example).

I'm also sure that SOME people will never use it - preferring to get their apps via more traditional ways.

But the fundamental principle is sound and will be a useful option for a lot of people. I've been using Macs for 25 years and know them inside and out, but I'll still probably use it for utilities and smaller apps.


But back to the topic at hand, Apple's position is reasonable. Why should Apple pay all the promotional and infrastructure costs only to have the customer install a free app and then link to the developer's web site to purchase it? Apple has no obligation to promote anyone's apps for free.

I think a far more likely scenario (and one which Apple might go for) is something like the Adobe Photoshop / Photoshop Elements apps. Apple might sell a consumer version of an app which meets the needs of a large fraction of consumers even if the developer sells a full 'Pro' version online or at retail.
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post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Well, Apple likely will close it when the Mac App Store actually launches. OR OR OR, hey! Make www.apple.com/downloads the place for demos! I mean, we have plenty of demos there right now, just remove all the real applications, put them in the App Store, and make the Downloads page into www.apple.com/demos

apple won't make money with that so you won't see that happening!

they will close that page and it's gone! it's actually already gone, because it WAS in the top menu bar, but isn't anymore.

however, a steve jobs MUST SEE: http://youtu.be/-24euRgImPg?hd=1
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodypainter View Post

apple won't make money with that so you won't see that happening!

Are you even attempting to base this in fact?

Quote:
they will close that page and it's gone! it's actually already gone, because it WAS in the top menu bar, but isn't anymore.

Uh, no. It's not "actually already gone". It still exists. It will likely keep existing for a decent while, as drivers, plugins, icons, screensavers, and demos have absolutely no place in the Mac App Store.

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post #109 of 114
[QUOTE=Tallest Skil;1763168]LOL. Show me one piece of documentation or one quote that proves this and I'll stop thinking of you as a troll.


i don't think it is a stretch to see the convergence of mac os and ios and the app store. i don't see them relaxing the iphone app store and the tactics in use by apple do suggest a more app restrictive future than the opposite.
like i said that was my opinion.
i really don't care that you think me a troll but i will say there is absolutely nothing you can do that will cause me to stop thinking of you as an idiot.
post #110 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

the tactics in use by apple do suggest a more app restrictive future than the opposite.
like i said that was my opinion.
i really don't care that you think me a troll but i will say there is absolutely nothing you can do that will cause me to stop thinking of you as an idiot.

Sure there is. Stop this nonsensical train of thought that Apple will disallow OS X applications not sold through the Mac App Store.

Also, please edit your post to remove the insult. They're against the rules.

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post #111 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

This isn't a very persuasive argument, in that it is based on literally nothing.

gee willy winkee, Frege. i will try to care enough to do better next time...
post #112 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Sure there is. Stop this nonsensical train of thought that Apple will disallow OS X applications not sold through the Mac App Store.

Also, please edit your post to remove the insult. They're against the rules.

you remove yours calling me a troll and i will do the same. you started with the insult and now cry about it. pathetic.
post #113 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post

Microsoft and Steam will have to make a little effort to remove their ugly folders out of our document folders!

Most MS software, and Steam for sure.. are not eligible to be sold in the store. MS might be able to make special versions that can be, but currently not even MS Office 2011 meets the requirements. Steam will never meet the requirements because they don't allow any software that can download or sell other software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I know, right? The only reason I don't install Steam for Mac is because of it's startup daemon. Perhaps if they want to go on the App Store they will cut that sh*t out and I will finally be able to enjoy it.

Won't ever happen unless Apple majorly relaxes its rules on the app store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kakeroat View Post

Demos, free wares, beta versions, add supported softwares can be installed directly on mac. Mac app store does not kills direct installation options.

Paid software can be purchased on app store. This will allow developers to earn more money, than they do by selling software directly.

So lot of resources of apple get saved. They don't have to host free softwares. Direct installation is always available. Plus apple are not earning anything from it.

Its a smart decision.

They already allow free software. Its nothing to do with free or not free... Free software is perfectly allowable in the App store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

It's not as if consumers will suddenly forget that there's a website for the developer when MAS comes out.

suddenly...? no... after 5 or 6 years... very likely.
post #114 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


App Store:
Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299

You visit adobe.com for the trial and download it
On the site, they have Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299-30% = $899

So where will you buy it from?

Developers can do that today.

But they don't.

Think about why.
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