Florida man accuses Apple store of age discrimination - Page 2

Originally Posted by Sacto Joe

1. Age discrimination happens. Take it from me. I'll by 65 in March and I was laid off after more than ten years with a company while a person doing the same job who was in his thirties and had been hired a year earlier was kept on.

Originally Posted by stonefree

As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.

Originally Posted by solipsism

You have only heard one side of the story. You have idea if he really was the most qualified or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position. Why was he terminated and who else at Apple has been treated this way by Katz manager(s) or Apple in general which shows a pattern of attitude toward the non-hipster crowd or whatever you want to call it.

PS: I agree with AdoniSMU that its believable, but that doesnt mean its true.

Originally Posted by nervus

Personally I manage in a large retail chain...

... I don't know anything about this case itself. But people do file complaints all the time. A lot of which are unfounded, and simply boil down to the employee not seeing their faults as being real issues. And their misunderstanding in thinking that in any non-union workplace that seniority counts for anything. Companies will always invest in the long term and people that are flexible, show a willingness to learn and adapt.

Originally Posted by Apple Bigmac


All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.

That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.

Originally Posted by jmmx

As was mentioned in the article, an attempt at reconciliation was attempted. At such, Mr Katz would have seen any evidence against his performance (one would assume). If there were serious issues here, then it seems to me unlikely that he would pursue the claim.

Originally Posted by Apple Bigmac

All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.

That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.

Originally Posted by macapptraining

I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.

Originally Posted by Blastdoor

I certainly cannot comment on the merits of this case -- there's just not enough information.

But aside from this case, I suspect we are about to see an avalanche of these types of lawsuits throughout all industries over the next few years. The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers are going to take the idea of "grumpy old man" to a whole new level.

Originally Posted by macapptraining

I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.

Originally Posted by Apple Bigmac

Thanks!

Well I am just sick of the sense of entitlement we have in the US. It's the "never had the luxury" bit that just smacks of it. Yes we thankfully have laws against discrimination against the US for minoriites and for good reason too. It just boogles the mind how some people think these things give minorities an advantage of some sort.

Yes, I joined because that comment really pushed me over. Have been reading Appleinsider for ages.

Originally Posted by AdonisSMU

I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.

Originally Posted by macapptraining

You're 100% right. After that job I knew I would never work in retail again, ever. It was that awful. At first, it is the wonderful world of Apple. You have the managers constantly feeding you the "growing with Apple" jargon that you can always move up in the company and be with them forever blah, blah, blah. Then this kinda stuff happens (and what I wrote in my story). It was a joke who they would even higher most of the time. A lot of employees didn't even own Mac computers, or didn't even know how to use them if they did own them. It was all about numbers there, how much you sold, what you sold, hitting quotas, never doing that stuff again. It was a joke too how many managers there would be and how many would be on the clock at once. Then breathing down your neck all day if you sold enough AppleCare or MobileMe, etc.

Originally Posted by screamingfist

its retail. doesn't matter that its the 'wonderful' Apple. it is awful but when you are young you believe that such places are magical lol.
that a 60 year old even got hired is an amazing feat in itself....

Originally Posted by Gunslinger

I really can't speak for how this guy went about his business but my last two trips to the Apple Store I have been greeted by older gentleman. Nothing against older people but these two sales reps didn't know a computer from a calculator. Such reps are not what people want to deal with.

Originally Posted by addabox

While I would want to see justice served if in fact the guy was a victim of age discrimination, why would you think it's "entirely believable that Apple would do something like this"?

I've never seen any allegations that Apple has a corporate culture of age discrimination, and beyond some kind of general impression that the tech industry work force tends to skew young I don't know why I should suspect it.

Further, we're talking about a particular store, so even if these allegation prove true, it's likely a problem with that store manager rather than some directive from Cupertino to hold back the old guys at the store.

In fact, given their efforts at appealing to a broad demographic, I would expect having some older staff members at the Stores would be seen by Apple as an asset. A 40 year old plus iPad buyer might find it pleasant to work with someone closer to their own age as opposed to a slightly manic 22 year old who can barely disguise their impatience.

Originally Posted by quinney

All I know is that if I hear one more Apple whippersnapper say "cool beans", I am going to go berserk and beat them down with my walker.

Originally Posted by island hermit

I don't care what this guy says... when you reach 60, regardless of how fit you are, things slow down and you get more tired, less focused and generally burnt out after 4 days of 8 hour shifts (let alone 5 days)... especially when you compare yourself to a much younger person (unless they are really really unfit).

I can understand why they would pass on this guy for a more demanding job. Age discrimination? Yes... in a way... sure. Understandable that he was passed by? Yes... in my opinion. Fair? hard to say... I guess you'd have to study this on a case by case basis... if just one of those people that was hired instead of him was less fit, less focused and less able, then this guy will win his case.

Originally Posted by OldMacGuy

Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.

Originally Posted by RayInHou

You know, it is up to the manager no matter what... if the manager doesn't like you for whatever reason, he can promote someone else. It's totally his prerogative and not just based on performance and ability. It is always up to the manager.

Originally Posted by macapptraining

Yes, it's a sales job and you know that up front, it's the managers, the atmosphere, teaching 2 years of one-to-one lessons while being paid as a specialist and being led on by managers. And no, McDonald's is not for me, and I don't eat McDonald's food (can you even call it food?). I have a college degree and have been running my own Apple Training company since quitting Apple. And my name is not McFly.

Originally Posted by lilgto64

I don't get why this guy is upset - he's already got a job on that Progressive Insurance commercial, doesn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2uyk...layer_embedded

Originally Posted by addabox

Having just defended Apple in a previous post I have to say that this is completely uncalled for. If the guy has a legitimate gripe (and it's certainly not out of the question) then he should be compensated and the store in question should change its polices.

Claiming that any kind of discrimination is OK because he's lucky to have a job at all is just nasty. It's a frightened peasant mentality that until recently wasn't really part of the American character.

Originally Posted by Blastdoor

... The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers...

Originally Posted by OldMacGuy

Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.

Originally Posted by Gunslinger

Great, our Apple store certainly could use a person with your wealth of knowledge. All I'm saying is that I know what I want and need when I walk in the store but I would sure hate to send the average non-computer savvy individual to a store where the clerk is incompetent.

Originally Posted by solipsism

You have only heard one side of the story. You have [no] idea if he really was the most qualified...

...or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position....

Originally Posted by Naboozle

Nor do you. However, the EEOC heard both sides and issued a finding favorable to Katz.

Originally Posted by Naboozle

According to the story, the supervisor never noted any deficiency, but rather denied that Katz expressed an interest in promotion. The EEOC ruling suggests that the evidence was contrary to the supervisor's statements. If Katz was indeed passed over for cause, then the supervisor screwed up by not providing reasonable and supportable explanations. Ignoring a problem in hopes it will go away isn't a good management style and it can come back to bite you and your company in the ass. If performance is the issue -- document it.

Originally Posted by addabox

That's a given, but incompetence isn't somehow a result of aging, even in the tech retail industry.

Originally Posted by AdonisSMU

I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.