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Florida man accuses Apple store of age discrimination - Page 2

post #41 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

1. Age discrimination happens. Take it from me. I'll by 65 in March and I was laid off after more than ten years with a company while a person doing the same job who was in his thirties and had been hired a year earlier was kept on.

Companies do this all the time. Generally, the more tenured employees are being paid more. So it's a cost savings to lay off the person who is making more in the same position. Of course, there may have been other elements, but just going off of what you said, it's common sense that it would happen that way. Given what you said, you can't just say that it was age discrimination.
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post #42 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.

All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.

That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.
post #43 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You have only heard one side of the story. You have idea if he really was the most qualified or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position. Why was he terminated and who else at Apple has been treated this way by Katz manager(s) or Apple in general which shows a pattern of attitude toward the non-hipster crowd or whatever you want to call it.

PS: I agree with AdoniSMU that its believable, but that doesnt mean its true.

I totally second that. This discussion cannot and should not be about this specific case. We have no insight and comments that in any way pass judgement one way or the other make us fools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nervus View Post

Personally I manage in a large retail chain...

... I don't know anything about this case itself. But people do file complaints all the time. A lot of which are unfounded, and simply boil down to the employee not seeing their faults as being real issues. And their misunderstanding in thinking that in any non-union workplace that seniority counts for anything. Companies will always invest in the long term and people that are flexible, show a willingness to learn and adapt.

My guess is that you (one) would generally lean towards a younger candidate if all else was equal, fair or not. In a fast paced, high tech, creative environment, even more so. If the job in question was a warehouse manager or personnel manager young age might work against rather than for.
post #44 of 181
How could he expect to be promoted? He's OLD!

Or... did I miss the point?
post #45 of 181
I worked with Michael at Millenia and I can say it was not his age that got him passed over for the position. It's easier to cry wolf than admit you're not as good at something as other people. He is being a cry baby.
post #46 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Bigmac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.

All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.

That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.

Welcome there, BigMac, but steady on a minute. From your quote I can't see that stonefree was begging for anything. He just stated a (fairly irrelevant) fact about his own life
post #47 of 181

Hope everything works out in the end!


Edited by macapptraining - 4/15/13 at 9:58am
post #48 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmx View Post

As was mentioned in the article, an attempt at reconciliation was attempted. At such, Mr Katz would have seen any evidence against his performance (one would assume). If there were serious issues here, then it seems to me unlikely that he would pursue the claim.

Nobody on this forum has any idea what actually transpired, myself included. It seems odd to me, however, that if there were a real possibility of discrimination here, AAPL wouldn't have "reconciled" the case out of court and out of the media -- even if they thought it was probably frivolous.

Just my opinion, but the fact that this wasn't quietly taken care of at the first opportunity gives me the opposite impression it gives you -- it tells me it's more likely to be frivolous. Think what you want about AAPL, but I don't think they're stupid (nor their lawyers... nor their PR department).
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post #49 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Bigmac View Post

All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.

That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.

'lurking for ages'???? says your join date was Dec 2010.....a little over 2 days?
post #50 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by macapptraining View Post

I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.

You can't have a sense of entitlement, because you are not a baby boomer.
post #51 of 181
You would think that Apple would want an older employee in a market like Orlando with all the retirees, etc. Not that a younger person can't sell devices to an older person, just that an employee with certain characteristics might relate better in certain markets.

I wonder what a look at statistics overall for Apple store employees would bear out. What is the average age, etc versus their industry peers? I would guess most employees are well under 30 with management being well under 40.

Its also ironic how homogeneous (while trying to be the exact opposite) many Apple store employees are despite Apple's broad appeal and user base. In other words, do our employees look like and otherwise reflect our customers?

If I had to guess I'd say there is a certain type of person that Apple retail looks for. Just wonder whether their standards are documented or not.
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post #52 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

I certainly cannot comment on the merits of this case -- there's just not enough information.

But aside from this case, I suspect we are about to see an avalanche of these types of lawsuits throughout all industries over the next few years. The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers are going to take the idea of "grumpy old man" to a whole new level.

Nice piece of self-centered grumpy generational ignorance. And the last word was changed to be kind toward your suspect motivation.
post #53 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by macapptraining View Post

I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.

its retail. doesn't matter that its the 'wonderful' Apple. it is awful but when you are young you believe that such places are magical lol.
that a 60 year old even got hired is an amazing feat in itself....
post #54 of 181
Thanks!

Well I am just sick of the sense of entitlement we have in the US. It's the "never had the luxury" bit that just smacks of it. Yes we thankfully have laws against discrimination against the US for minoriites and for good reason too. It just boogles the mind how some people think these things give minorities an advantage of some sort.

Yes, I joined because that comment really pushed me over. Have been reading Appleinsider for ages.
post #55 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Bigmac View Post

Thanks!

Well I am just sick of the sense of entitlement we have in the US. It's the "never had the luxury" bit that just smacks of it. Yes we thankfully have laws against discrimination against the US for minoriites and for good reason too. It just boogles the mind how some people think these things give minorities an advantage of some sort.

Yes, I joined because that comment really pushed me over. Have been reading Appleinsider for ages.

ah. my mistake.
post #56 of 181
Glad I'm not working there anymore.
post #57 of 181
I'm surprised people are jumping to strong conclusions over this. Even if this fellow was more qualified (technically) and had more seniority, he could have had a bad attitude, been a poor communicator, or may have demonstrated any number of other reasons for management to avoid promoting him. While it seems possible that there may have been age discrimination, it seems far more likely that he simply was not qualified for other reasons.
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post #58 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.

APPLE doesn't do this.... discriminate based on age.... it's the local manager that does this. Apple (as far as anyone knows yet) hasn't sent a memo saying not to promote anyone over 60. Nor do I find it hard to believe that that mentality exists in the company.

It's just a stupid local manager who doesn't like 60 year old creatives... whatever they are..

this is probably being handled by legal and lawyers are such dicks... harsh, brash, and always CYA... so they aren't going to respond right away... hell, they are fighting much bigger legal battles...

don't be so quick to judge... this 60 yr old could be deceiving us all and could be out for money only...
post #59 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by macapptraining View Post

You're 100% right. After that job I knew I would never work in retail again, ever. It was that awful. At first, it is the wonderful world of Apple. You have the managers constantly feeding you the "growing with Apple" jargon that you can always move up in the company and be with them forever blah, blah, blah. Then this kinda stuff happens (and what I wrote in my story). It was a joke who they would even higher most of the time. A lot of employees didn't even own Mac computers, or didn't even know how to use them if they did own them. It was all about numbers there, how much you sold, what you sold, hitting quotas, never doing that stuff again. It was a joke too how many managers there would be and how many would be on the clock at once. Then breathing down your neck all day if you sold enough AppleCare or MobileMe, etc.

OK... let's see... it's a SALES JOB!!! Hello McFly!!! If you can't be in a sales job mentality, then move on... it's not for you. It's not for a lot of people. But they are there to run a business. Maybe you should get a job at McDonald's or something.
post #60 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

its retail. doesn't matter that its the 'wonderful' Apple. it is awful but when you are young you believe that such places are magical lol.
that a 60 year old even got hired is an amazing feat in itself....

I don't care what this guy says... when you reach 60, regardless of how fit you are, things slow down and you get more tired, less focused and generally burnt out after 4 days of 8 hour shifts (let alone 5 days)... especially when you compare yourself to a much younger person (unless they are really really unfit).

I can understand why they would pass on this guy for a more demanding job. Age discrimination? Yes... in a way... sure. Understandable that he was passed by? Yes... in my opinion. Fair? hard to say... I guess you'd have to study this on a case by case basis... if just one of those people that was hired instead of him was less fit, less focused and less able, then this guy will win his case.
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post #61 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post

I really can't speak for how this guy went about his business but my last two trips to the Apple Store I have been greeted by older gentleman. Nothing against older people but these two sales reps didn't know a computer from a calculator. Such reps are not what people want to deal with.

Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.
post #62 of 181
I like Apple too much to ever work for them. Why spoil the illusion?
post #63 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

While I would want to see justice served if in fact the guy was a victim of age discrimination, why would you think it's "entirely believable that Apple would do something like this"?

I've never seen any allegations that Apple has a corporate culture of age discrimination, and beyond some kind of general impression that the tech industry work force tends to skew young I don't know why I should suspect it.

Further, we're talking about a particular store, so even if these allegation prove true, it's likely a problem with that store manager rather than some directive from Cupertino to hold back the old guys at the store.

In fact, given their efforts at appealing to a broad demographic, I would expect having some older staff members at the Stores would be seen by Apple as an asset. A 40 year old plus iPad buyer might find it pleasant to work with someone closer to their own age as opposed to a slightly manic 22 year old who can barely disguise their impatience.

Nearly every corporation discriminates by age. It's rampant, but very difficult to prove.
post #64 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

All I know is that if I hear one more Apple whippersnapper say "cool beans", I am going to go berserk and beat them down with my walker.

LOL. You kids get off my lawn.
post #65 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I don't care what this guy says... when you reach 60, regardless of how fit you are, things slow down and you get more tired, less focused and generally burnt out after 4 days of 8 hour shifts (let alone 5 days)... especially when you compare yourself to a much younger person (unless they are really really unfit).

I can understand why they would pass on this guy for a more demanding job. Age discrimination? Yes... in a way... sure. Understandable that he was passed by? Yes... in my opinion. Fair? hard to say... I guess you'd have to study this on a case by case basis... if just one of those people that was hired instead of him was less fit, less focused and less able, then this guy will win his case.

You know, it is up to the manager no matter what... if the manager doesn't like you for whatever reason, he can promote someone else. It's totally his prerogative and not just based on performance and ability. It is always up to the manager.
post #66 of 181
I don't get why this guy is upset - he's already got a job on that Progressive Insurance commercial, doesn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2uyk...layer_embedded
post #67 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMacGuy View Post

Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.

he he. i have forgotten more about computing than most 20 year olds know lol.
post #68 of 181

Hope everything works out in the end.


Edited by macapptraining - 4/15/13 at 9:57am
post #69 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayInHou View Post

You know, it is up to the manager no matter what... if the manager doesn't like you for whatever reason, he can promote someone else. It's totally his prerogative and not just based on performance and ability. It is always up to the manager.

... until someone takes the store to court and proves that the manager is a dick and is overlooking a person based solely on age.

As I said... understandable imo... but courts of law are there for people if they feel they have been treated unfairly.
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post #70 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by macapptraining View Post

Yes, it's a sales job and you know that up front, it's the managers, the atmosphere, teaching 2 years of one-to-one lessons while being paid as a specialist and being led on by managers. And no, McDonald's is not for me, and I don't eat McDonald's food (can you even call it food?). I have a college degree and have been running my own Apple Training company since quitting Apple. And my name is not McFly.

kick ass. nothing sweeter than doing your own thing.
post #71 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

I don't get why this guy is upset - he's already got a job on that Progressive Insurance commercial, doesn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2uyk...layer_embedded

this woman is doing well in the Apple iLife Alert commercial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BluFI...eature=related
post #72 of 181
It probably bears mentioning that age discrimination is illegal. Against the law. Actionable.

It doesn't matter if it "happens all the time", it doesn't matter if you have a dim view of "old people", it doesn't matter if you subscribe to some kind of Darwinian "get those tedious seniors out of the way" ideology. Or even if you're just young and dumb and lacking the imagination to realize that you, too, will be older someday and that you might consider supporting the mechanisms that could keep you housed and fed even while your predatory juniors are clamoring to have you euthanized.

It's illegal, and should someone be subject to same, they are entitled to protection under the law and likely compensatory damages. The question is whether or not the discrimination took place, not if "old people" have any right to gainful employment in the industry of their choosing, because that's pretty much a settled issue, your prejudices notwithstanding.

Next up: a black guy sues an Apple Store for being passed over for promotion, and we have a thread full of observations about the relative worth of black people and anecdotal tales of their general fecklessness.
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post #73 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Having just defended Apple in a previous post I have to say that this is completely uncalled for. If the guy has a legitimate gripe (and it's certainly not out of the question) then he should be compensated and the store in question should change its polices.

Age discrimination is a big problem in this country. You have to have been around long enough to see and understand the issues. I'm getting up there in years myself and often see both sides of the issue, sometimes it seems like the dumb and useless last the longest. On the flip side I've seen management teams come into an organization and lay people off before even saying hello just so they can put in place a young team that works for half the wages.
Quote:
Claiming that any kind of discrimination is OK because he's lucky to have a job at all is just nasty. It's a frightened peasant mentality that until recently wasn't really part of the American character.

This I agree with 100%. It is a very recent turn of events and seems hot be the result of people thinking government and corporations have the right to screw people over. I'm actually surprised at the extent to which the TSA and their creepy actions have been accepted by the public.
post #74 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

... The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers...

I thought that description applied to their children.
post #75 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMacGuy View Post

Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.

Great, our Apple store certainly could use a person with your wealth of knowledge. All I'm saying is that I know what I want and need when I walk in the store but I would sure hate to send the average non-computer savvy individual to a store where the clerk is incompetent.
post #76 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post

Great, our Apple store certainly could use a person with your wealth of knowledge. All I'm saying is that I know what I want and need when I walk in the store but I would sure hate to send the average non-computer savvy individual to a store where the clerk is incompetent.

That's a given, but incompetence isn't somehow a result of aging, even in the tech retail industry.
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post #77 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You have only heard one side of the story. You have [no] idea if he really was the most qualified...

Nor do you. However, the EEOC heard both sides and issued a finding favorable to Katz.

Quote:
...or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position....

According to the story, the supervisor never noted any deficiency, but rather denied that Katz expressed an interest in promotion. The EEOC ruling suggests that the evidence was contrary to the supervisor's statements. If Katz was indeed passed over for cause, then the supervisor screwed up by not providing reasonable and supportable explanations. Ignoring a problem in hopes it will go away isn't a good management style and it can come back to bite you and your company in the ass. If performance is the issue -- document it.
post #78 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naboozle View Post

Nor do you. However, the EEOC heard both sides and issued a finding favorable to Katz.

Only because what he said happened in fact did happen, with people getting promotions who were younger than him. They aren't saying anything about whether or not his accusation has any truth to it, only that his reasoning for that accusation did. No judgment either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naboozle View Post

According to the story, the supervisor never noted any deficiency, but rather denied that Katz expressed an interest in promotion. The EEOC ruling suggests that the evidence was contrary to the supervisor's statements. If Katz was indeed passed over for cause, then the supervisor screwed up by not providing reasonable and supportable explanations. Ignoring a problem in hopes it will go away isn't a good management style and it can come back to bite you and your company in the ass. If performance is the issue -- document it.

Applying for a job might qualify for "expressing an interest" where you work, but where I work, expressing an interest is going beyond performance expectations alongside applying to the position. If his performance was just average, it would explain why the supervisor didn't document performance related issues while at the same time feeling like he wasn't expressing an interest like other people who applied. Then, if he was disgruntled about it, it could show up in his work ethic, and even be the cause of his being fired!

So the point remains: No judgment can be made at this time.
post #79 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

That's a given, but incompetence isn't somehow a result of aging, even in the tech retail industry.

Exactly. I find it to be the opposite where I work. The guys at the top are all the oldest with the most experience. In fact, I worked alongside a guy to learn Java out in Iowa who was old enough to retire already. He was a brilliant software engineer.
post #80 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.

Add to that the fact that he's only suing for $15,000... he doesn't sound like a gold-digger.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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