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Florida man accuses Apple store of age discrimination - Page 3

post #81 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Add to that the fact that he's only suing for $15,000... he doesn't sound like a gold-digger.

Well obviously he sounds like someone who believes what he's saying. Anyone in his position who believes this should definitely pursue legal action. It's only fair.

The thing is though, people here in the comments are judging one way or another lol
post #82 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Noooo, they're saying they found reasonable cause, meaning it's worth an investigation. Reasonable cause could simply be this man's account of what happened lining up with what actually happened (with him not getting promotions while people 15 years younger did.) The intention behind everything isn't what's the reasonable cause.

Really, if you can't discern this sort of thing, don't comment.

I agree actually. If anyone feels this way, and I mean genuinely feels this way, not just butthurt for getting fired, they should pursue legal action.

Don't blame me for a poorly written article. That has nothing to do with discerning anything on my part. That's just you trying to pretend you are smarter than you really are by putting someone else down. The problem was not my interpretation. It was the writing. If you can't make a point without putting another poster down .... *rolls eyes*
post #83 of 181
If true, the manager of the store should be fired. Age discrimination, as with any other kind of employment discrimination however, is very hard to prove.
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post #84 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

I suspect that his complaint has more to do with his firing that the actual Creative position. Especially if he has trouble getting a latter job. He may have been offered some kind of settlement but figures he can get more money out of a lawsuit. Who knows



You were there were you, so you don't know if he did you didn't apply. Maybe he mentioned it in passing but didn't follow up with a proper application.



Assuming Apple is required to tell someone the reasons, how do you know they didn't. You don't. Maybe they did tell him and he didn't like the reasons. Maybe he refused to work weekends or evenings and was told he would have to. Maybe they needed people who knew programs he didn't. Maybe he didn't come off as a people person. He might think those were BS reasons, so in his own head he decided it was because he was old. Rather than th truth which was that the youngsters were more available, better with people etc

I don't disagree that I would like to hear more information from the store manager and from the guy.
post #85 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

I certainly cannot comment on the merits of this case -- there's just not enough information.

But aside from this case, I suspect we are about to see an avalanche of these types of lawsuits throughout all industries over the next few years. The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers are going to take the idea of "grumpy old man" to a whole new level.

Don't take your issues with your parents or grandparents blind you to real cases of discrimination. By the way, the only way this case MIGHT be true is if the local manager had attitudes like yours.

I hate discrimination against the young, by the way, though there's precious little evidence of it.

Intergenerational rivalry is a big long term for stupidity.
post #86 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.

Well... pretty good chance you could not get a job at an Apple store anyway. Especially if you don't look like a tatooed emo kid!
post #87 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmx View Post


However, I have to say that I have noticed how there are almost no older people working in Apple stores.



I've seen a couple who were pushing 40. They do exist.
post #88 of 181
I would imagine its pretty easy to contact the EEOC (whether he has a reason or not)... Then let's say, oh I don't know, something crazy like trying to claim ownership of the Sun and tax everyone for using its rays!

Don't believe me just look at this crazy woman!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all.
post #89 of 181
The guy is asking for a measly $15,000? That's really not a lot. I find it a little hard to believe that he would go to the trouble of filing a complaint for such a small amount if he doesn't honestly believe he was wronged.

Now if he had asked for, say, $150,000 two or three year's wages then maybe he could be accused of attempting a cash grab.
post #90 of 181
wow, that's shame. people forgot something. nowadays, there are many seniors stopping by apple store. what's important is that they actually buy mac or other expensive apple product right away. they have money, retired, have many times to hang out if they want. I think that they are better customers than damn fucking teenagers, young people (early 20s middle 20s whatever). this is definitely serious issue to deal with. Apple, you are shame. working in retail store is not really proud job if you are educated highly. but whatever it is misunderstood or not, for most young people, it seems very nice job. but don't get me wrong. in my life, I've never worked at retail stores. I am serious. I have more than 14 years of experience in my job. I have been jump to jump from big companies. do you think that you have lots of knowledge while working in apple retail store? well, they have very official or limited knowledge for only purpose for retail business. if somebody has very deep question, they can't handle. anyway, I expect that he will be rewarded, win.
post #91 of 181
Florida is a right to work state. As an employer, you don't need a reason to terminate. So Mr. Katz...good luck with that.
post #92 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualie View Post

The guy is asking for a measly $15,000? That's really not a lot. I find it a little hard to believe that he would go to the trouble of filing a complaint for such a small amount if he doesn't honestly believe he was wronged.

Now if he had asked for, say, $150,000 two or three year's wages then maybe he could be accused of attempting a cash grab.

You cant use the amount as evidence of validity. Reasons to ask for a lot is because 1) the lawyers take a hefty amount, 2) you want to make sure a company feels adequately punished so they dont do it to someone else, and 3) you have a very strong case and youre just being greedy.

Reasons to ask for a little are 1) youre trying to be fair and just despite an injustice done to you, or 2) you really dont have a case so you think a smaller payout wont be fought as hard. Note is plenty of precedence of people taking large corporations to small claims courts simply because they likely wont show since the cost for their lawyes time is more than the amount being asked for so they win by default.

Again, there simply isnt enough data to make an educated guess.
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post #93 of 181
I suspect his manager did not like him and that this has NOTHING to do with Apple policy.

I think the claim that he did not know he wanted promotion is fatuous and he said that because he cannot, or is unwilling to explain why he didn't promote him.
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post #94 of 181
I'd like it if I was able to run a business and discriminate against applicants for whatever reason I saw fit. That'd be nice.
post #95 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas View Post

Shame on you, Apple.

You must have an amazing talent - being able to determine guilt or innocence after hearing only a part of ONE SIDE of a story. Wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all.

People do it all the time. My company got sued by a guy who had NO evidence. EEOC told him that there was insufficient evidence for them to consider doing anything. He apparently shopped around to every labor attorney in town and none of them would take the case. Yet he STILL sued. We spent about $20 K on defending ourselves before the judge finally looked at our attorney and said "if you have a motion to dismiss on my desk tomorrow, I'll sign it".

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.

Based on what (other than your irrational hatred of Apple)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by سیب View Post

I've seen a couple who were pushing 40. They do exist.

Oh, that's old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

Florida is a right to work state. As an employer, you don't need a reason to terminate. So Mr. Katz...good luck with that.

Actually, the fact that it's a right to work state doesn't preclude a law suit for age discrimination. If the employer gives an indication that you're being fired due to age or if there's sufficient statistical evidence (although this is harder to make a case on), you can still win a discrimination case in a RTW state.
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post #96 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post

His opinion of less qualified is just that, HIS opinion.

Does younger mean MORE qualified? I doubt it. Does a youngster who finds himself in a hiring capacity mean he is more qualified to judge who is more or less qualified? Maybe he would just like to hire all his friends. That seems more likely the case. Apple has their "young, hip" image to project. You rarely see more mature experienced people working in a retail setting on the front lines...
post #97 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slang4Art View Post

I'd like it if I was able to run a business and discriminate against applicants for whatever reason I saw fit. That'd be nice.

He wasn't an applicant. He was an employee.
post #98 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by سیب View Post

The usual annoying shit

سیب

Translation: Apple
post #99 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerothecat View Post

Does younger mean MORE qualified? I doubt it. Does a youngster who finds himself in a hiring capacity mean he is more qualified to judge who is more or less qualified? Maybe he would just like to hire all his friends. That seems more likely the case. Apple has their "young, hip" image to project. You rarely see more mature experienced people working in a retail setting on the front lines...

1) There are many ways in which younger generations are most knowledgeable and therefore more qualified than many from older generations. The history of personal computers and consumer electronics are rife with examples.

2) Your assumption that those who were more recently "bequeefed" into this world by their mothers are more likely to act unethically at a job seems unfounded to me. It also implies that Katz manager was one of these youngsters.

3) You oddly ignore that he was hired by Apple in the first place to work at their retail stores. So are we to assume that Apple had no such imagine during the iPod heyday of early 2006, but by September 2007 when he was let go they put this “young, hip” imagine into action, and that such a decision was mandated from on high at Apple HQ? Note: the release of the iPhone and later the iPad has made Apple more attractive to businesses and older generations who never grew up with computers.
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post #100 of 181
Quote:
Katz began working as a Mac specialist at the Apple store at Millennia Mall in Orlando in March 2006

Sooooo according to the article, he began working in the Mall in 2006...

Quote:
Katz was "constructively terminated" from the Orlando store in September 2007

Sacked in 2007...

Quote:
he says he expressed his desire to be promoted to the title of "Creative."

wanted a promotion...

Simple math states, an older man had a job in a mall for 1 year, and expected a promotion. The story also states that there were 4 positions opened, that he applied for. Did all of those positions open at the same exact time, a year later? Or were they opened throughout his tenure with store? I'd have to imagine it was the later.

Sorry, but I wouldn't give promotions out to anyone after having them for only 1 year. That said, if the 4 positions he was going for, open throughout his stint, then I certainly don't give out a promotion in less than a year.

I'd like to know, the 'younger' associates that got the promotion, how long they worked with the store/company.

It's simple really. You get a promotion if you are a top performing associate. And even if you were, you have to contend with other people of the same value as you, and pay grade as you, and perhaps they had their position longer than you, and had more experience.

Meh, this guy might have a valid point. He may have been Steve's long-lost brother/father, but there is many other factors to consider. One of which the valid point above.

To quote some Star Wars... "Good luck... you're gonna need it"
post #101 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addison View Post

I suspect his manager did not like him and that this has NOTHING to do with Apple policy.

I think the claim that he did not know he wanted promotion is fatuous and he said that because he cannot, or is unwilling to explain why he didn't promote him.

I suspect the man was a foreign agent and the manager got wind of his true identity. Then, I suspect, the manager attempted to blackmail the employee, but it backfired when the employee used his espionage skills, I bet, to hack into the manager's accounts and I'm guessing he threatened to expose his history of what I reckon was embezzlement.

It seems to me that at that point they both agreed to a discrimination suit, I figure as a cover for a kind of "mutually assured destruction" scenario. Or so I would estimate based on the facts at hand.
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post #102 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I suspect the man was a foreign agent and the manager got wind of his true identity. Then, I suspect, the manager attempted to blackmail the employee, but it backfired when the employee used his espionage skills, I bet, to hack into the manager's accounts and I'm guessing he threatened to expose his history of what I reckon was embezzlement.

It seems to me that at that point they both agreed to a discrimination suit, I figure as a cover for a kind of "mutually assured destruction" scenario. Or so I would estimate based on the facts at hand.

That's exactly what I surmised as well... but we read one thing differently... I understood that when the employee hacked into the manager's accounts he actually changed the data to make it appear that the manager was embezzling from the company...

I guess it'll all come out in the trial...
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post #103 of 181
Shame on Apple for either discriminating against the guy, or hiring a whiney complainer of an employee.
post #104 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

'lurking for ages'???? says your join date was Dec 2010.....a little over 2 days?

But he was lurking for ages before he registered.
Just as there are 75 guests viewing (lurking) this page now.
post #105 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

سیب

Translation: Apple

Translation: TeckStud/iGenius alias
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post #106 of 181
As a formal employee of Apple retail I have seen first hand that the hiring and promotion practices are a little fishy. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed working for Apple and met a lot of amazing people. But there are flaws, some major flaws.

I was lucky enough that I received every promotion I went after, but some of my highly qualified colleagues weren't so lucky. Apple claims not to judge promotions solely on sales numbers. So a three year part-timer with ok numbers, but amazing people skills goes for full time. Instead its given to a newbie of three weeks, who has already had HR called on him, clearly a racist and sexist, but is pushing machines out the door because he is scaring the shit out of customers to buy a mac.

The older folks (50+) that were hired at store were a true inspiration to me. They were introduced to this technology late in the game with a high learning curve. But yet they were wowed by how it changed their lives. Many of them actually taking classes with creatives years before they became employees. They are just so excited to be able to share their findings and knowledge with the community. In my opinion they are the best people to become creatives at Apple retail.

I just hope this isn't another one of the silly promotion episodes that I saw way too often.
post #107 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

Florida is a right to work state. As an employer, you don't need a reason to terminate. So Mr. Katz...good luck with that.

"Right to work" sounds contrary to the sentence that followed. I guess employees are "at will" (which would be more accurate).

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post #108 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post

Florida is a right to work state. As an employer, you don't need a reason to terminate. So Mr. Katz...good luck with that.

Doesn't matter when it comes to discrimination.
post #109 of 181
Coming from someone who knows about working at the "Fruit stand" this definitely sounds like a valid and truthful occurrence. I've seen and heard from managers how, why or why not they decide to go with another person. Unfortunately it's not about work performance, its about how close and "friendly" you are with management. If employee A is always on time, works hard for the company and even goes above and beyond for the customer & the store he will be overlooked by someone like employee B who abuses time and attendance, doesn't put in the effort that others do and finds ways to stay off the RZ floor BUT has close relations with management. Trust me I've seen it first hand. I've seen co-workers go up for job openings within Apple and be completely overlooked for some "creative" reason. Now not ALL management is flaky at Apple but you definitely have someone that will bend rules for those that they 'Prefer". I've been at the hiring events and been part of the group of staff who have given a yea or nay when it comes to who is Apple material. Its definitely possible that this occurred and being that this incident happened at the Millenia Store then its twice as likely. Good Luck Michael! Hopefully justice will be served. Some people at Apple need to be knocked off the high horse they sit upon. Its a PHENOMENAL company to work for but some of the managers abuse the power and need to refrain from having too personal of a relationship with staff where it hinders proper decisions that should be made.
post #110 of 181
I am in my sixties and a Specialist at an Apple store. I have been with Apple for over two years and I have never experienced any type of discrimination. Apple retail is a great place to work - it's like a second family.

For the poster who asked: FRS - Family Room Specialist. The Family Room is where the kids' iMacs are located, where we do personal training and greet and check in for Genius Bar appointments.
post #111 of 181
What the hell kind of job title is "Creative" anyway? What does that mean, exactly? Origami swans? Complicated Illustrator layouts? Positioning the iMac for maximum Feng Shui?

Seriously, what does a "creative" do?
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post #112 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias03 View Post

Sooooo according to the article, he began working in the Mall in 2006...



Sacked in 2007...



wanted a promotion...

Simple math states, an older man had a job in a mall for 1 year, and expected a promotion. The story also states that there were 4 positions opened, that he applied for. Did all of those positions open at the same exact time, a year later? Or were they opened throughout his tenure with store? I'd have to imagine it was the later.

Sorry, but I wouldn't give promotions out to anyone after having them for only 1 year. That said, if the 4 positions he was going for, open throughout his stint, then I certainly don't give out a promotion in less than a year.

I'd like to know, the 'younger' associates that got the promotion, how long they worked with the store/company.

It's simple really. You get a promotion if you are a top performing associate. And even if you were, you have to contend with other people of the same value as you, and pay grade as you, and perhaps they had their position longer than you, and had more experience.

Meh, this guy might have a valid point. He may have been Steve's long-lost brother/father, but there is many other factors to consider. One of which the valid point above.

To quote some Star Wars... "Good luck... you're gonna need it"

At Apple it doesn't matter for how long you've been with the company. The internal position opening is email to EVERYONE. Anyone can interview. From there the list of people is trimmed to those who seem to be qualified OR whoever the managers like. Rarely is someone hired due to the knowledge base of the position. If they like you, you're in. I've seen PLENTY of unqualified people getting promoted & training new staff. I was fortunate enough to get a few positions I sought out for but I had RAINBOWS popped in my ass for why I wasn't chosen. And when I confronted management about it they created a reason as to why I wasn't qualified enough. Trust me Apple managers know how to step around things. Its almost Mafia-like on how connected people are.
post #113 of 181
I've seen people terminated for Time and Attendance issues, which is a valid reason for termination but I've also seen people who have and currently abuse the Time & Attendance policy but only get promoted to Expert positions and other leadership roles only because of personal & intimate relationships they have with management. Sometimes its not who you know but also who you're f***ing.

Rules are bent and at times broken for the chosen few but karma has always come to get hers.

For the majority of the people working for Apple are there because of the interactions with customers. Its such a rewarding feeling to help others realize how amazing the products are. You can't deny the quality and functionality of Apple products. I wouldnt trade my experience with my Apple customers for ANYTHING but one of the ugly sides of Apple is the one that Michael Katz has experienced. I honestly do not doubt Michael's case one bit and that's because I've seen this side and many other sides of Apple. I just wish that Apple HR would take a more serious approach to concerns within their stores because its hurting the Apple culture. Millenia, Florida Mall & Altamonte all have issues that need serious attention to. Listen to the YOUR people Apple. Remember the credo card? Now live by it starting with your soldiers in the front line. I'd suggest take a look at the Florida Mall management team. They have plenty of dirty laundry as well.

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post #114 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewing98 View Post

What the hell kind of job title is "Creative" anyway? What does that mean, exactly? Origami swans? Complicated Illustrator layouts? Positioning the iMac for maximum Feng Shui?

Seriously, what does a "creative" do?

Creatives are the software Gurus you see teaching, instructing & informing customers on how to use their Apple product. They are prob one of the most knowledgeable people in the store. Genius's are the mechanics, Creatives are the ones that show you HOW TO DO on your product. It takes a patient person to give 1hr+ of lessons, teachings and classes to each One to One member.
post #115 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoedog View Post

I am in my sixties and a Specialist at an Apple store. I have been with Apple for over two years and I have never experienced any type of discrimination. Apple retail is a great place to work - it's like a second family.

For the poster who asked: FRS - Family Room Specialist. The Family Room is where the kids' iMacs are located, where we do personal training and greet and check in for Genius Bar appointments.


You're absolutely right. I worked for Apple. Apple is by FAR one of the top companies to work for but your experience and work environment is based upon the management team and how they take care of their own. I went through a time when my Apple store was fair, firm and consistent. I had nothing bad to say working there other than I wish we were open 24/7. It was THAT good. But then managers left and new ones were put in their place and they started making poor and biased decisions and it slowly changed the scope of how Apple operates. They took that credo card and made changes to it that only benefitted themselves and those they wanted. But my beef is that they werent fair or consistent. They made issues personal and thus brought outside experiences into work and allowed THAT to help them make managerial decisions. It was a shame but they resulted in a lot of seasoned Apple staff to depart or transfer. I'm happy you have such a great staff to work with. Enjoy it and hope that you dont get one of those types of managers.
post #116 of 181
Hard to say anything based on only what we are told unless we assume it as fact. He might of just been a mean or undesirable piece of work to promote. Or, he might be completely right that they discriminated towards him. Hard to discuss, but interesting to follow the outcome. Sadly we probably will never know the conclusion without spending considerable effort to track it.
post #117 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A Florida man in his 60s has sued Apple, alleging that he was denied promotions when he worked at the company's retail store because of his age.

Michael Katz has accused Apple of violating the state's Civil Rights Act, as he believes he was subjected to discrimination based on his age. The complaint, filed this week, seeks damages in excess of $15,000.

Katz began working as a Mac specialist at the Apple store at Millennia Mall in Orlando in March 2006, when he was 60 years old. In his lawsuit, he says he expressed his desire to be promoted to the title of "Creative."

In his tenure at the Apple store, there were "several" openings for creatives at the store, and Katz claims he applied each time but was denied the position. Those who were selected for the job were at least 15 years younger than him, he said.

"Katz was passed over for promotion multiple times in favor of individuals with less seniority with Apple and inferior qualifications," the complaint reads. "Katz was not provided with any explanation for his repeated denail of promotion opportunities. Rather, his supervisor simply denied that Katz had ever expressed a desire to obtain a Creative position."

Katz was "constructively terminated" from the Orlando store in September 2007, and he filed charges of discrimination with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and Florida Commission on Human Relations. In June 2009, the EEOC reportedly found "reasonable cause" that Katz was denied promotions by Apple because of his age.

"The EEOC attempted to conciliate the matter, but those efforts failed," the complaint reads. It also notes that the FCHR did not issue a determination on his case.



"Katz's FCRA claims are therefore ripe for litigation, and he is permitted, pursuant to Florida Statute 760.07 to file a civil action in this Court seeking a remedy for the unlawful employment practices described herein," it states.

The suit was filed in the 9th Judiial Circuit Court in Orange County, Florida, where the Orlando store is located. Katz is seeking back pay and and damages from the Cupertino, Calif., company.

could the reason be because he is Jewish? This could be a contributing factor in this case.
post #118 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.

Absurd. This is the same as saying you don't believe anyone would sue anyone else without just cause.
post #119 of 181
Odd story. In my experience, any 60 year old who was actually hired for a job they applied for would be thrilled and grateful.
post #120 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

PS: I agree with AdoniSMU that its believable, but that doesnt mean its true.

I have to say, I've never seen anyone working in an apple store who looked over 23, and not only that, they are all physically attractive too, ever seen a man with a receding hair line as an apple store employee? How about a lady with waist measurements not in "proper proportion" to chest measurements? I have not.

Apple wants pretty people, no different than any other modeling job, the difference, and the thing that will end up hanging them in this matter is that they don't call it what it is, modeling (read looking pretty to sell shit)- they classify it as tech support/advising/retail sales.
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