or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Obama Caves In
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Obama Caves In - Page 3

post #81 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Look for an easy explanation in my reply to SDW!

Keep trying! I'm sure you'll get a good one on me one of these years!

Yes, because everyone thinks and acts just like you Jimmac. \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #82 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No, but the entire context of this discussion is Obama and the Democrats (and his economically illiterate supporters) has been the top marginal tax rate for the "richest" in America (those making over $250,000. To deny this context is disingenuous (at best) and dishonest (at worst).




Yes and an important piece of information, the income where it applies, is missing. You simply thrown out some percentages without any concern or regard for the context of them, and thinOK you've made some point.




Yes. And here's the same list with some additional information.




Yes.

Sigh! Did you read the entire post and see they adjusted the incomes?

My list was in accordance to what you were saying. They weren't just quoting static rates. Really you would have to know that they would have thought of that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #83 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes, because everyone thinks and acts just like you Jimmac. \


It's simple to figure out. Did you have a problem with it?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #84 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Sigh! Did you read the entire post and see they adjusted the incomes?

You posted two links one (for about the third time) which contains only top marginal income tax rates and no dollar figures. And the other with about ten other links off to other things.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #85 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You posted two links one (for about the third time) which contains only top marginal income tax rates and no dollar figures. And the other with about ten other links off to other things.


One of the links on the last page showed how they defined wealthy!

But I guess you have trouble reading. You're stalling now.

Don't you think others would have already thought of what you have?

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa...fm?topic2id=48


Jesus!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #86 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

One of the links on the last page showed how they defined wealthy!

Then link to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

But I guess you have trouble reading. You're stalling now.

6944694f74


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Don't you think others would have already thought of what you have?

You didn't.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #87 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Then link to it.




6944694f74




You didn't.

Look above!http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa...fm?topic2id=48

Did you really believe they wouldn't have thought of that?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #88 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Look above!

Which one of those links are you referring to. I'm not going to look through everyone searching for whatever point you think you're making. Show me exactly what you're referring to or STFU.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #89 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Which one of those links are you referring to. I'm not going to look through everyone searching for whatever point you think you're making. Show me exactly what you're referring to or STFU.

You STFU! I've posted it for you many times now. I can't help it if you're too arrogant to look!

When you click on the margin at the left you get definitions for what they consider " High Income ".

And yes! They change over time!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #90 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You STFU! I've posted for you many times now.

617373686f6c65

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I can't help it if you're too arrogant to look!

I did look...at page with 10 links. You've consistently avoided telling me which one you're referring to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

When you click on the magine at the left you get definitions for what they consider " High Income ".

So what? The debate isn't about what income is high or low. I've been talking about incomes adjusted for inflation against the $250K amount and the "rich" the Obama administration wants to try and soak. Geez.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #91 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

617373686f6c65



I did look...at page with 10 links. You've consistently avoided telling me which one you're referring to.




So what? The debate isn't about what income is high or low. I've been talking about incomes adjusted for inflation against the $250K amount and the "rich" the Obama administration wants to try and soak. Geez.

All I can see is you got caught with your intellectual pants down and you can stand it so you obfuscate! The Brookings institute isn't just using your static model of $250,00 to define who's rich. Get real! Like I've said don't you think they would have thought of that also?

Someone's getting soaked alright! It's the middleclass and anyone who isn't rich who buys this stuff you're peddling!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #92 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

All I can see is you got caught with your intellectual pants down and you can stand it so you obfuscate!

Of course that's how you see it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The Brookings institute isn't just using your static model of $250,00. Get real! Like I've said don't you think they would have thought of that also?

I'm absolutely certain they have. However the link you've consistently posted did not contain the nominal or inflation adjusted income levels at which those rates applied which is an important piece of information to the discussion of income tax rates. You have consistently evaded or dismissed this point. The link I posted back at you contained the same rates plus the nominal income levels at which they applied at those times.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #93 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Of course that's how you see it.




I'm absolutely certain they have. However the link you've consistently posted did not contain the nominal or inflation adjusted income levels at which those rates applied which is an important piece of information to the discussion of income tax rates. You have consistently evaded or dismissed this point. The link I posted back at you contained the same rates plus the nominal income levels at which they applied at those times.

I haven't evaded or dismissed anything.

I'm just laughing at the fact you're trying desperately to wriggle out of the the fact that at first you tried to tell everyone the wealthy didn't pay higher taxes in recent history. But we have that in black and white MJ.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #94 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I haven't evaded or dismissed anything.

Wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'm just laughing at the fact you're trying desperately to wriggle out of the the fact that at first you tried to tell everyone the wealthy didn't pay higher taxes in recent history.

You're laughing at the lie you're telling about what I've said? 6944694f74

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #95 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wrong.




You're laughing at the lie you're telling about what I've said? 6944694f74

Do I need to post the quote where you said " You're wrong " again?

Ok here you go :

Quote:
First :
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970

I'd say you're wrong. First, the "long time before historically" you're referring to is since about the 1920's and during the 1930's (and beyond). Second, arguably these higher income tax rates are part of the cause for the stagnation of the 1930's.

You need to think through what effect raising taxes will have. You can start some deductive reasoning from this point: When you subsidize something, you get more of it; when you tax something, you get less of it. In short though, raising taxes on the rich will result in less investment in wealth-creating activities. That will end badly.

Jimmac :
You really think I'm wrong?

You may want to look at this:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=213

Just comparing 1980 to 1987 is an eye opener.

Also you may want to look at this from someone who's wealthy :

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...pay_more_taxes





And then :


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
Smoke and mirrors. Bottom line they paid more taxes no matter how you spin it.

MJ1970 :
No it's not "smoke and mirrors".

For example, in 1920, the top margin tax rate was 73% on incomes over $1,000,000. in 1950 it was 84% on incomes over $400,000. And there's a wide variety of that throughout the history.

Those numbers in today's dollars would be approximately: $10.M and $3.5M


http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...113713&page=15
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #96 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Do I need to post the quote where you said " You're wrong " again?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #97 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


Just to clairify here's what you were saying I was wrong about :

Quote:
Since they used to do that for a long time before historically and we seemed to operate just fine I'd say negligible.

And of course you've even said they paid higher taxes in the past now.

Anything else?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #98 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Just to clairify here's what you were saying I was wrong about :

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Since they used to do that for a long time before historically and we seemed to operate just fine I'd say negligible.

And as I clarified for you, the part in bold is what I was referring to (which was in response to my question about what the negative economic impacts might be). 6d6f726f6e

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #99 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And as I clarified for you, the part in bold is what I was referring to (which was in response to my question about what the negative economic impacts might be). 6d6f726f6e

That's what you say now. You didn't indicate that at the time the original statemnt was made so it's a little difficult to swallow. That was part of a larger sentence.

!@#&*$$%%#!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #100 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That's what you say now. That was part of a larger sentence.

That's what I said a while ago. 6d6f726f6e


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You didn't indicate that at the time the original statemnt was made so it's a little difficult to swallow.

So what? I clarified as soon as I realized that you misunderstood what I meant.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #101 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That's what I said a while ago. 6d6f726f6e

Uh huh. After I proved that they had paid higher taxes. Not soon enough to matter. But it's easy to say " that's not what I meant " after the fact!

!@#&*$$%%#!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #102 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Uh huh.

Look it up. The posts should all be there. Hmmm...there appear to be some missing posts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #103 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Look it up. The posts should all be there. Hmmm...there appear to be some missing posts.

Well I didn't delete anything. However the real world is calling.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #104 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Uh huh. After I proved that they had paid higher taxes. Not soon enough to matter. But it's easy to say " that's not what I meant " after the fact!

I'm sorry that your misunderstanding and my clarification don't sync up with your high standards.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #105 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well I didn't delete anything. However the real world is calling.

I didn't claim you did. But there do appear to be some missing posts. It's actually quite weird. There is a post of yours on page one that actually quotes a post of mine, but my post (that you quoted) cannot be found for some reason. Ahhh, I see the prblem...this discussion crossed threads. Here's where I clarified my comment about you being wrong. A mere 5 posts after you challenged me on it and I realized you had (unsurprisingly) misunderstood my comment.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #106 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It's simple to figure out. Did you have a problem with it?

Better slow down for me oh great one. This forums software is way over my head.

The statement I made had 2 distinct parts to it.

Everyone thinks (the part you latched on to) AND ACTS (the part you glossed over) like you.

I never log out of the forums myself. No need to. So no, I do not see posts of people I have on ignore. I also do not go out of my way to log out so that I CAN see posts on ignore. That would kind of defeat the purpose of putting a person on ignore, would it not?

One might as well simply take the person off ignore, it would be easier in the long run. But far less childish I guess. Do what you want.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #107 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Interestingly, you just described - with one small exception - the tax structure of one of the world's wealthiest countries.

No it's not the United States. Its per capita GDP is much, much greater than the US.

Its government is a constitutionally limited, parliamentary representative democratic republic. It has a separate and independent judiciary. The treasury runs a surplus and unemployment is low. It has no debt. Its inhabitants enjoy one of the world's longest lifespans.

The one exception is a 5% tax on capital gains. There is a tax on corporate profits but the rate is roughly half that of the US.

Imagine the paradise the US would become with such a structure.

OK. So you've challenged me. Let's see how I did.

First, its per capita GDP is much, much greater than the US. There are a couple of lists from which I get the following possibilities:

Monaco
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Norway
Switzerland
Qatar
Jersey
Denmark
San Marino
Faroe Islands
Ireland
Netherlands
Cayman Islands

The ones in bold are the ones I'd consider to have a "per capita GDP is much, much greater than the US."

In your PM you eliminated two: Luxembourg and Switzerland.

Based on what I can find about capital gains tax rates (which you've said is only 5% in this country) I have been able to eliminate:

Norway
Denmark
Ireland
Netherlands
Cayman Islands (it has no capital gains tax)

So we have these left:

Monaco
Liechtenstein
Qatar
Jersey
San Marino
Faroe Islands

Based upon the governmental type (constitutionally limited, parliamentary representative democratic republic) it would seem to eliminate these:

Monaco (constitutional monarchy)
Liechtenstein (constitutional monarchy)
Qatar

Leaving us with:

Jersey
San Marino
Faroe Islands

Is appears that Jersey does have a strictly independent judiciary. So we drop them:

San Marino
Faroe Islands

I'm going to say you were thinking of San Marino, but the Faroe Islands might be a close second.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #108 of 295
Well done MJ
A is A
Reply
A is A
Reply
post #109 of 295
Curious, why do conservatives get to rail against America adopting a similar economic structure to Sweden based on major scaling complaints, but somehow San Marino with a population of roughly 1 square mile of New York (30,000 people. Thirty Thousand. For Fuck's Sake.) is a brilliant example of what the WHOLE UNITED STATES SHOULD DO?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #110 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Curious, why do conservatives get to rail against America adopting a similar economic structure to Sweden based on major scaling complaints, but somehow San Marino with a population of roughly 1 square mile of New York (30,000 people. Thirty Thousand. For Fuck's Sake.) is a brilliant example of what the WHOLE UNITED STATES SHOULD DO?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I don't agree with your anger, but I do agree with your question. It occurred to me as well that the size is not the same. So how well would the fiscal policy fit? Do we have any LARGER countries to compare to?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #111 of 295
The anger comes from the blatant hypocrisy. These are the same people who continually claim that we can't adopt single payer healthcare because it wouldn't scale properly--so using any number of good European or Canadian examples to support the benefits of single payer is right out. And then all of a sudden, when they find some sort of capitalist utopia (with a population several orders of magnitude smaller than Sweden, and 5 orders of magnitude smaller than the US), they have no issue using it to bolster their positions.

It's disgusting.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #112 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I don't agree with your anger, but I do agree with your question. It occurred to me as well that the size is not the same. So how well would the fiscal policy fit? Do we have any LARGER countries to compare to?

We probably don't have any countries as large as the US or maybe even close to make such comparisons.

In the absence of such examples, I suspect we have to rely on logical reasoning and deduction to consider whether or not such policies would work equally as well, better or worse in a larger country.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #113 of 295
So, let's be Sweden. Point, Set, Match. No take-backs, MJ!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #114 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Better slow down for me oh great one. This forums software is way over my head.

The statement I made had 2 distinct parts to it.

Everyone thinks (the part you latched on to) AND ACTS (the part you glossed over) like you.

I never log out of the forums myself. No need to. So no, I do not see posts of people I have on ignore. I also do not go out of my way to log out so that I CAN see posts on ignore. That would kind of defeat the purpose of putting a person on ignore, would it not?

One might as well simply take the person off ignore, it would be easier in the long run. But far less childish I guess. Do what you want.

You can't even get Star Trek logic right. How can you judge things in the real world " Oh great one"?

However I agree ignore doesn't work. MJ was relentless in replying to me when I put him on it. The same with trumptman. I just thought I'd give them a little of their own medicine. Of course it's all different when you're on the receiving end.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #115 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

However I agree ignore doesn't work. MJ was relentless in replying to me when I put him on it.

"Relentless in replying" to someone who is posting in a public forum. That's rich.

Furthermore your assumption that just because you have chosen to ignore someone, but you continue posting, this someone immunizes you from their responses to your posts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #116 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

"relentless in replying" to someone who is posting in a public forum. That's rich.

Replying when they're on ignore ( and yes I did ask you to stop ).

Are you denying you did it? This is of course the exact same thing that's bothering NoahJ about my replies to SDW.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #117 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Are you denying you did it?

I'm not denying that I reply to your posts. Whether you have me on ignore is unknown to me and whether those replies were...ummm...relentless...well...I guess that's a matter of opinion. And. yes, I know how you see it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #118 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm not denying that I reply to your posts. Whether you have me on ignore is unknown to me and whether those replies were...ummm...relentless...well...I guess that's a matter of opinion. And. yes, I know how you see it.

Quote:
Whether you have me on ignore is unknown to me

I told you you were on ignore at the time and asked you to stop.

Well NoahJ there you go. All I'm doing is returning in kind to how I was treated through SDW as MJ has never put me on ignore ( however trumpy did and that didn't last long and trust me SDW's done far worse I still remember the time he called me a " Dick head " which now he's conveniently forgot ). So NoahJ anything else to complain about?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #119 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I told you you were on ignore at the time and asked you to stop.

Yes, at some point, you did. This is true.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #120 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, at some point, you did. This is true.

Yes it's true. And ( just to be clear ) you didn't stop after that point as well. Thank you for confirming.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Obama Caves In