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Hadayat Belonged to Egyptian al Qaeda

post #1 of 59
Thread Starter 
Hadayat Belonged to Egyptian Jihad,
al QaedaÂs Operational Arm


5 July:Â* Hashem Mohamed Hadayat, 41, who gunned down Yakov Aminov, 46, and Vicky Hen, 25  both from Los Angeles - on the 4th of July at the El Al terminal of Los Angeles, and wounded 7 others, is revealed by DEBKAfileÂs intelligence and counter-terror sources as a Muslim extremist. During his ten years in the United States, he was a secret operative of the Egyptian Jihad who maintained undercover links to the same Jihad cell in Brooklyn, New York, as the Âblind sheikh Abdul Rahim Rahman and Ramzi Yousef. Both are doing time for perpetrating the first attack on the New York World Trade Center in 1993.
Hadayat is also believed to have abetted a previous, contrived airline disaster: On October 31, 1999, an Egyptair Boeing 767 Flight 990, which also took off from Los Angeles airport, never reached its destination of Kennedy, New York. The plane plunged into the Atlantic off the Nantucket Island, Mass. coast, killing all 217 passengers and crew. In a special probe, the US National Transportation Safety Board found that the copilot Gameel el-Batouty was at the controls when the plane went into its dive. His voice was recorded shouting, ÂI put my faith in Allah!Â
The report held back from referring more directly to the Egyptian copilotÂs responsibility for the crash.
Our sources affirm that Hadayat, who lived in Irvine, California, 70 km south of Los Angeles, knew Batouty well. There are also indications that, in the years 1998 and 1999, Hadayat was in touch with a group of high Egyptian air force officers and helicopter pilots posted at the time at Edwards Base north of Los Angeles. They were there to learn how to install command and control centers in EgyptÂs air defense systems, operate anti-air missile batteries and fly Apache gunships. Most of those officers were on the doomed Egyptian airliner after completing their courses.
Although the long-delayed US Transportation Board report never referred to the presence of this high-ranking Egyptian air force delegation on the flight, DEBKAfile Âs Washington sources reported at the time that most of the investigators were satisfied that Batouty could not have seized control of the Boeing 767 without the aid  certainly the compliance - of those officers.
Two years ago, Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak exerted all his influence on President Clinton to keep the federal boardÂs findings out of its published report and, above all, the fact that a group of Egyptian air force officers was on the plane. He warned that citing the Egyptian copilot as deliberately causing the crash would have a negative effect on Egyptian-US relations.
The report therefore fell short of clear conclusions.
HadayatÂs murderous attack on El Al flight 106 passengers points back to the Egyptair 990 disaster of 1999, reviving the many questions left open by that earlier, half stifled inquiry, which carefully stepped round any suggestion of terrorism. It also raises the question of how many sleeper cells the Egyptian Jihad, al QaedaÂs primary operational arm, maintains in American cities.
Hadayat struck the El Al ticket line on his 42nd birthday. The initial FBI inquiry found through records of his fingerprints at the Department of Motor Vehicles, which issued him with a limousine license, that he was married with at least one child, and had lived in Irvine for the last two years, working on a green card.
Since the attack, the possibility that he arrived in America as a sleeper terrorist must be seriously addressed. US investigators realize he was not a lone operative and are seeking his accomplices in such matters as setting up the hit, providing the guns he carried and intelligence on the security situation at the Tom Brady terminal.
DEBKAfileÂs Middle East intelligence sources report that early Friday, Egyptian intelligence officers picked up HadayatÂs relatives and associates in Cairo, to try and trace the identities of his fellows in the American Jihad cell.
---

mika.
post #2 of 59
This was not surprising in the least.
post #3 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>This was not surprising in the least.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But of course it was a suicide attack: the co-pilot was a muslim!

1) Post your source!
2) Godammit!
3) Shouting "I put my faith in Allah!" as the plane went down, here posited in a rather underhand fashion as short-hand for "I have bin Laden's jissom on my uniform", means nothing. Were you in charge of a plummeting plane I fully expect you would reach out a hand to your deity of choice at a moment like this. It proves he believed in God, possibly. A fundamentalist, certainly not. Just some more spurious bullshit dug up by that dude from Haifa.

So let's see your source.
post #4 of 59
I was referring to the fact it was an Islamic radicalist that killed 2 people in front of the El Al terminal.
post #5 of 59
No surprise at all that is was an A-rab who did this. High time we wake up and stop letting foreigners into America. We need to start kicking all the ones who are here out as soon as possible .
post #6 of 59
Seeing that we are all foreigners, except perhaps for the native Americans, that's a pretty idiotic statement.
post #7 of 59
Thread Starter 
quote
It proves he believed in God, possibly. A fundamentalist, certainly not. Just some more spurious bullshit dug up by that dude from Haifa.

So let's see your source.


If you read the article and you still cant figure out the source, you need more help than I can offer you.

Also,

spu·ri·ous adj
1.\tbeing different from what it claims to be
Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation.


So youre saying the article is bull and masquerades as something different from what it claims to be? How so?

If I were to float around a conspiracy theory, I would say that US officials are deliberately downplaying and in some cases down right concealing the connection(s) between this and other terror attacks and those Islamic groups that perpetrate them. To say that this terror attack, which happened on July 4 and on US soil, and deliberately targeted EL AL passengers and personnel at an airport terminal, does not necessarily lead them to the conclusion that a terrorist attack just occurred, is nothing short of amazing.


mika.

[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #8 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Seeing that we are all foreigners, except perhaps for the native Americans, that's a pretty idiotic statement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. We, as a nation, owe a lot to the people who have immigrated here over the years. Immigration is what makes this nation strong.
post #9 of 59
"3) Shouting "I put my faith in Allah!" as the plane went down, here posited in a rather underhand fashion as short-hand for "I have bin Laden's jissom on my uniform", means nothing. Were you in charge of a plummeting plane I fully expect you would reach out a hand to your deity of choice at a moment like this. It proves he believed in God, possibly. A fundamentalist, certainly not. Just some more spurious bullshit dug up by that dude from Haifa."

If were just a plummeting plane then it might not have any significant meaning. However he is the one who caused it to plummet. In light of the fact that the flight data recorder indicated the dive was initiated by whomever was at the controls and that at one point you had contradictory flight control actions in the cockpit occuring within a very short span it is obvious that one of the pilots was trying to send the plane into the drink. It is quite possible that his choice to commit suicide and mass murder has nothing whatsoever to do with his islamic beliefs and he is just a psycho killer who happens to be a muslim. However, he chose to invoke the name of allah in his cause during a moment in time in which his cause happened to be killing himself and scores of other people. The question of his motives is a legitimate one and he is the one who brought allah into the discussion with his own comments.
post #10 of 59
CoD:

[quote]If were just a plummeting plane then it might not have any significant meaning. However he is the one who caused it to plummet. In light of the fact that the flight data recorder indicated the dive was initiated by whomever was at the controls and that at one point you had contradictory flight control actions in the cockpit occuring within a very short span it is obvious that one of the pilots was trying to send the plane into the drink. <hr></blockquote>

I don't remember this at all. I followed this whole thing pretty closely and from what I recall they had no idea what ultimately caused the crash but mechanical failure of some kind was responsible. So I really would like to see a source.

[quote]The question of his motives is a legitimate one and he is the one who brought allah into the discussion with his own comments. <hr></blockquote>

Colander, he wasn't bringing anything into any discussion, he was about to die. He used a standard formula religious type's oath and off he went. None of this smacks of suicide business at all; he was a family man, no kind of radical, he'd had the job for years and if I remember correctly if he did have a 'motive' it was an argument with Air Egypt. And no-one was really certain about that.

"Our sources tell us that..." this very bad man who shot some El Al passengers somehow knew this guy: well, who are we talking about? Please? And I'm still waiting to find out who wrote Mika's piece.

And for that matter I'd really like to know what it's serving us to keep reading these threads about Bad Muslims when all that happens is the same old shite bores the board silly. We know you don't like Muslims, Mika, but we can all watch the news.

[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i-Sabbah ]</p>
post #11 of 59
Thread Starter 
Hassan,

If I really wanted to flood these boards with anti Muslim threads I could easily post 2-3 fresh posts on a daily basis, and still I wouldnt cover all the mischief these people are causing around the world. Theres a lot of bad sh*t that is being deliberately concealed or obscured by the mainstream media outlets. If you dont believe me, Ill be happy to provide you with this information.

I stated this thread because I was disappointed by the way the mainstream international media was covering this tragedy. (They are still denying its a terrorist act). I wanted to bring to light what I consider is important and relevant information relating to this case.

I understand you are uncomfortable with this. But youve been a die-hard apologist for these people, and that needs to change. When you, and people as yourself become more critical of these Islamicists and actually start to publicly criticize them and their ideology, then Ill consider the need for such posts unnecessary.


As far as the Article and the people who wrote it: heres some info:

ABOUT US

DEBKAfile is a self-supporting Internet publication devoted to independent, investigative reporting and forward analysis in the fields of international terrorism, intelligence, international conflicts, Islam, military affairs, security and politics.
DEBKAfile comes out seven days a week in English and Hebrew with additional language sites planned.

Traffic
At the last count:
152,000 core audience.
A total of 1,239,000 visitors per week and 4,200,000 per month
62% of our audience is American, 30% Israeli, 8% from 96 countries on every continent and
2 readers in space, aboard the international space station.
58% of our viewers are aged from 25 to 46, including many members of the free professions, government officials, financial leaders, military and intelligence personnel, academics, students and incorrigible skeptics.
Our articles are regularly quoted and credited by a host of international television, radio and print media.

DEBKAfile has been cited as Best of the Web by Forbes, selected Hot Site by USATODAY and profiled in the New York Observer (A Web Site With the Inside Dope on the Middle East), Time Magazine, Jonathan Margolis, Evening Standard, London (The site that spies read), Le Monde, Paris, Corriere della Sera, Milan, Wired News (Debka: Conflicts Drudge Report?), NEW MEDIA ( For the real skinny on the Afghan story), Haaretz Magazine and Globes Digital. Articles are in preparation in Harpers and Rolling Stone.
A brief roundup of their comments is appended to this page.

Staff and Methods
Giora Shamis is Chief Editor and CEO; Diane Shalem, English Editor and Head of Research. Both had long records as international correspondents with mainstream media before opening DEBKAfile in the summer of 2000.

DEBKAfiles editorial desk, located in Jerusalem, Israel, is supported by half a dozen full- and part-time correspondents, contributors in world hot spots and a far-flung web of tried and proven sources.
We have also developed informal swap and links connections with reputable writers and publications on most continents.

DEBKAfile does not by-line its articles as part of a calculated and unique professional approach. Often group efforts, our articles represent diverse input and ideas from different sources as seen from various angles. Unlike the traditional beat approach to current affairs, this method broadens their scope, lifting their content out of the localized plane and reducing its susceptibility to local interests and bias.

DEBKAfile is self-financed, has no axe to grind and speaks for no government, group, organ, institution, political party or interest.
Some exclusive world beats in 2001:
- The Bush-Putin pact for collaboration in the war on terror
- Osama bin Ladens secret citadel in Afghanistan
- The Chinese military presence with al Qaeda in Afghanistan
- The secret signing of a Syrian-Iraq military collaboration-cum-oil pipeline treaty
- Saudi Arabias refusal to let the US use its air bases for the war on terror
- How the terrorists planted a digital mole in the White House
The broadening of our story-bases is one of the ways DEBKAfile has jumped aboard the Internet revolution.
Another is its active interchanges with readers, who e-mail us in their thousands from far and wide, with comments not all complimentary, thoughts and impressions, corrections, pointers and, sometimes, first-hand leads that after careful checking yield important disclosures.
We value these correspondents highly, read all their messages and reply to as many as we can.

The name DEBKA comes from the dance that is popular from Afghanistan to the Middle East and reflects the complexities of those regions. It is done differently in each country and by every ethnic group, like the approach to war and peace. The whole region is preoccupied with the subject, but each entity has its own take.

DEBKAfile also publishes a confidential newsletter DEBKA-Net-Weekly with exclusive political and military analyses and prognoses for subscribers ($120 p.a. for 48 issues).
Available too upon request is DEBKA Customized Service: Analyses, forecasts and tips, tailored to the specialized requirements (daily, weekly or monthly) of select clients.
Contact us at gedit@debka.com
For further information, you may apply to dedit@debka.com
Fax: +972-2-532-4135
Address for sponsors: dedit@debka.com
Our Webmaster may be reached at admin@debka.com

What They Say About Us
This Jerusalem-based site has achieved recent notoriety for its tip-sheet-like reports from the war zone Debkafile has been ahead of he pack often enough to suggest that the reporting is good.
Forbes.com Best of the Web Dec. 2001
It just happens that a lot of the sites subscribers are spies and reporters. The site,,, is a fascinating mix of information and speculation from the not-so-grey area where journalism meets intelligence work.
So how reliable are DEBKAfilesstories?
the two stories that were proved correct this week will add hugely to the sites credibility. It said several weeks ago that George Bush had agreed with Vladimir Putin that the Russians should mobilize a million-strong army paid for by the US, to work side-by-side with America in an occupied post-war Afghanistan. A fortnight ago it reported that Bin Laden may fake his own death hence the attempts to secure bin Laden DNA.
Evening Standard, London, Jonathan Margolis, Nov. 28, 2001
On several occasions, Debka.com has beaten the Western media to information that has later shown up in U.S. newspapers At its best, Debka.com reads like a tip sheet from the desert, from people who know If you want to be on the cutting edge during these days of crisis and international chaos, check out DEBKA for yourself.
Is it worth $120 a year to get the news before the rest of the world?
THE NEW YORK OBSERVER Sept. 26, 2001
The result isnt much to look at, but Debkafile is beating out big-name American and international news sources on several key stories and attracting flocks of new readers in the process USA today, CNN and NBC all reported last Friday that American and British forces were in Afghanistan scouting out terrorist hiding places; Debkafile had the same story days earlier, and included details about Russian intelligence officers and German commandos joining in the incursions.
WIREDNEWS Oct. 13, 2001
So, how do you find out whats really going on in the U.S.s mounting war against Osama bin Laden and his ilk hiding out in Afghanistan and other terrorist-protecting countries? You might turn to where a lot of journalists are turning, Debka.com.
NEW MEDIA Oct. 3, 2001
DEBKAfile is quoted on Chinese Muslims helping the Taliban on
WTNT/Radio (Savage Nation broadcast/Mike Savage) Oct. 8, 2001
DEBKAfile is sourced for report on White Russia selling arms to Muslim extremists by Aftenposten, Norway Oct. 31, 2001
came to Debka via the Internet site of the Hamas organization. They frequently quote reports from Debka. It took a long time before I understood what this Debka was that they keep mentioning.
Haaretz Magazine, Oct. 19, 2001
---


mika.

[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #12 of 59
dude, how hard is it to post a friggin link?

I dont want to ahve to search for a stupid article that i know nothing about...

you started the disdussion, it would be nice if you included a link to the article that makes up most of your inital post so we can see the context...

we didnt ask for the verified credibility of your source, although that may have followed later on in the discussion...

all things being equal, to me it sounds a little to far fetched to be true... (the whole keepng it out of the report or losing diplomatic relations with egypt...) reeks of bullshit...

that is irellevant tho... please post a link to the article...

thanks

-Paul
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post #13 of 59
Thread Starter 
[double post]

[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #14 of 59
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Paul:
<strong>dude, how hard is it to post a friggin link?

I dont want to ahve to search for a stupid article that i know nothing about...

you started the disdussion, it would be nice if you included a link to the article that makes up most of your inital post so we can see the context...

we didnt ask for the verified credibility of your source, although that may have followed later on in the discussion...

all things being equal, to me it sounds a little to far fetched to be true... (the whole keepng it out of the report or losing diplomatic relations with egypt...) reeks of bullshit...

that is irellevant tho... please post a link to the article...

thanks

-Paul</strong><hr></blockquote>

:eek: <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> :eek: <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> :confused:
post #15 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

:eek: <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> :eek: <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> :confused: <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

am I missing something?

Im not too proud to admit a mistake... please explain...
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post #16 of 59
Thread Starter 
plz count how many times debka.com is mentioned in the post. How you managed to miss it is beyond my comprehension.

mika.
post #17 of 59
how hard is it to do <a href="http://www.DEBKA.com/body_index.html" target="_blank">this?</a> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

i realized it was from "debka" but i didnt want to ahve to search for the article you reffer to, i didnt realise it was the main headline...
why do you have to be so condescending and rude?

its not too much to ask to get a link...

but regardless, i ahve it now and I am happy <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />

now the content... give me a minute to digest it... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
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post #18 of 59
Thread Starter 
I was rude because you are a lazy sloth. If you bothered to type debka in the address panel of your browser, you wouldnt have spent 30 min waiting for a dumb reply.

mika.
post #19 of 59
ok why would clinton refuse to let out the "fact" that the airliner that went down in nantukett was hijacked? Egyptian pressure to keep the story supressed would only make Clinton (@ least in my assesment) want to get to the bottom of the propblem... it seems to me that the paper is just taking lose facts and applying them to what they know happened on 9/11 and a rough assesment of what might have hapened on the plane in nantukett...

i'll say again, I think it is bogus...
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post #20 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>I was rude because you are a lazy sloth. If you bothered to type debka in the address panel of your browser, you wouldnt have spent 30 min waiting for a dumb reply.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

its called common courtesy, if you really cared about this issue, you would want as many people as possible to see it, and facilitationg a link, which takes 2 seconds of your time, as opposed to me reading through the entire thread to find what you meant by it, is not too much to ask... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

Edit: also, I have never heard of "debka" until now... excuse me if I am skeptical...

I'm not saying that what they are saying is untrue... but I AM saying that so far the way you are presenting it and the way their website looks it doesnt look extremely professional to me...

[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: Paul ]</p>
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post #21 of 59
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Paul:
<strong>ok why would clinton refuse to let out the "fact" that the airliner that went down in nantukett was hijacked? Egyptian pressure to keep the story supressed would only make Clinton (@ least in my assesment) want to get to the bottom of the propblem... it seems to me that the paper is just taking lose facts and applying them to what they know happened on 9/11 and a rough assesment of what might have hapened on the plane in nantukett...

i'll say again, I think it is bogus...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'll refer you here:
] <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=001342&p=9" target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=001342&p=9</a>
Noah makes a very good argument.


mika.
post #22 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

I'll refer you here:
] <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=001342&p=9" target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=001342&p=9</a>
Noah makes a very good argument.


mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was in the middle of that PDF when IE barfed on me... coincidence? I need to get to bed, i'll continue this later...

-Paul
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post #23 of 59
Thread Starter 
So youre saying that what you read on CNNs web site, or the BBCs web site, is more believable to you because their web site is more polished, and better known.

Oh boy.

What if I were to tell you, that as an Israeli, I know for an absolute fact that a great number of reports filed by these so called reputable media outlets, deliberately slant and obscure, and often times conceal relevant and important facts relating to those stories. I know this, because I follow these issues, and I know the facts as they are on the ground. And in many instances these facts and those facts that are reported by foreign medias do not match. And I can also tell you that Im not only Israeli who shares this opinion.

mika.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #24 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>What if I were to tell you, that as an Israeli, I know for an absolute fact that a great number of reports filed by these so called reputable media outlets, deliberately slant and obscure, and often times conceal relevant and important facts relating to those stories. I know this, because I follow these issues, and I know the facts as they are on the ground. And in many instances these facts and those facts that are reported by foreign medias do not match. And I can also tell you that Im not only Israeli who shares this opinion.</strong><hr></blockquote>

don't get me wrong, I know that most of the "stories" in today's media are complete bullshit and are tweaked to the point to get maximum ratings and minimum info...My father reads every mainstream newspaper in NYC and he still doesnt get the stories straight...

my point is, the article in question points to a conspriacy theory that is so far-fetched its almost rediculous... Clinton has(d) a duty to protect the american people... if he knew that Flight 990 was "hijacked" and deliberatly taken down, he should have come out with said information soon after the 9/11 attacks... the reports are just to similar... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
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post #25 of 59
A couple of points. According to today's issue of The Guardian:

"FBI agent Richard Garcia, who is heading the investigation, said the gunman was not any suspected terrorist list, either domestic or international, and had no criminal convictions. There was no evidence that Hadyet was part of any known group, he said."

That's the first thing.

The second thing is, I've just been to this DEBKA site and on it, in the headlines it's talking about Gameel el-Batouty as "suicide pilot" as if established fact. It's not; he wasn't. There is absolutely no link at all between this insane Egyptian-born gunman with a limo company in LA and this poor man piloting a crashing plane, and this bullshit site exists, as far as I can see, to give ammunition for, um, people like you to post crap like this on forums like this.

Will you stop it please?
post #26 of 59
Thread Starter 
Paul,
if he knew that Flight 990 was "hijacked" and deliberatly taken down, he should have come out with said information soon after the 9/11 attacks... the reports are just to similar...

I read and re-read this statement, and I just cant follow your thoughts here. Can you please elaborate on this. Also, have you read the AI page I linked to yet?

Hassan,
If you want to keep sucking on the propaganda tit of the BBC, The Economist, The Guardian, The Independent, etc. thats your business. I think there are more informing news outlets out there, and I intend to bring them to light as I see fit.

mika.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #27 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Hadayat Belonged to Egyptian Jihad,
al QaedaÂs Operational Arm


5 July:Â* ...
Hadayat is also believed to have abetted a previous, contrived airline disaster: On October 31, 1999, an Egyptair Boeing 767 Flight 990, which also took off from Los Angeles airport, never reached its destination of Kennedy, New York. The plane plunged into the Atlantic off the Nantucket Island, Mass. coast, killing all 217 passengers and crew. ...
---

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

From <a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/events/ea990/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/events/ea990/default.htm</a>

"On October 31, 1999, at about 1:50 a.m., Eastern Standard Time, Egyptair flight 990, a scheduled international flight from New York to Cairo, crashed in the Atlantic Ocean about 60 miles south of Nantucket Island, Massachusetts.Â* "


Your original post was greatly incorrect. The Egyptair 990 flight depart NY - JFK, not LA - LAX.

I think this makes your source a little less credible. Sorry.
post #28 of 59
Thread Starter 
So if a plane makes a stop in New York to pick up passengers, it means the flight had originated in New York?

mika.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #29 of 59
You're funny.

I'll keep sucking on my 'tit' of pretty even-handed, reputable propaganda, you carry right on with your factually incorrect speculative present-horseshit-and-conjecture-as-god's-own-truth internet-only hate-disseminating propaganda. Cool?

Cool.

PS: I still think that ethnic cleansing is bad, and I rather fancy that all the Jews that died in the shoa did too.
post #30 of 59
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i-Sabbah:
<strong>You're funny.

I'll keep sucking on my 'tit' of pretty even-handed, reputable propaganda, you carry right on with your factually incorrect speculative present-horseshit-and-conjecture-as-god's-own-truth internet-only hate-disseminating propaganda. Cool?

Cool.

PS: I still think that ethnic cleansing is bad, and I rather fancy that all the Jews that died in the shoa did too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm just making this up as I go along.. right?
] <a href="http://www.konformist.com/1999/egyptair/edwards.htm" target="_blank">http://www.konformist.com/1999/egyptair/edwards.htm</a>


mika.
post #31 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>So if a plane makes a stop in New York to pick up passengers, it means it the flight had originated in New York.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

According to your post, the flight "never reached its destination of Kennedy, New York. The plane plunged into the Atlantic off the Nantucket Island, Mass. coast, killing all 217 passengers and crew."

Flight 990 did reach its destination of Kennedy-JFK. Whether it orginated at LAX or not it did infact successfully arrive at JFK. It crashed about 30 mins after departure from JFK in the Atlantic.
post #32 of 59
Thread Starter 
Here's another..
Maybe you'll find this more palatable..

] <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid_501000/501632.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid_501000/501632.stm</a>

mika.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #33 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Here's another..
Maybe you'll find this more palatable..

] <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid_501000/501632.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid_501000/501632.stm</a>

mika.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

So, are you admitting that your orginal post was incorrect? You seem to contradict yourself here.
post #34 of 59
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jettaguy26:
<strong>

According to your post, the flight "never reached its destination of Kennedy, New York. The plane plunged into the Atlantic off the Nantucket Island, Mass. coast, killing all 217 passengers and crew."

Flight 990 did reach its destination of Kennedy-JFK. Whether it orginated at LAX or not it did infact successfully arrive at JFK. It crashed about 30 mins after departure from JFK in the Atlantic.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yeah?!
Here's what your gov had to say:

"On October 31, 1999, at about 1:50 a.m., Eastern Standard Time, Egyptair flight 990, a scheduled international flight from New York to Cairo, crashed in the Atlantic Ocean about 60 miles south of Nantucket Island, Massachusetts."

Kinda makes you want to scratch your head...


mika.
post #35 of 59
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jettaguy26:
<strong>

According to your post, the flight "never reached its destination of Kennedy, New York. The plane plunged into the Atlantic off the Nantucket Island, Mass. coast, killing all 217 passengers and crew."

Flight 990 did reach its destination of Kennedy-JFK. Whether it orginated at LAX or not it did infact successfully arrive at JFK. It crashed about 30 mins after departure from JFK in the Atlantic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, they are in error with regards the plane's landing in New York. But the fact the gov own information site tries to conceal the fact that the plane originated in Los Angeles, would supports my conspiracy theory. Why try to conceal this fact?


mika.
post #36 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>


Yeah?!
Here's what your gov had to say:

"On October 31, 1999, at about 1:50 a.m., Eastern Standard Time, Egyptair flight 990, a scheduled international flight from New York to Cairo, crashed in the Atlantic Ocean about 60 miles south of Nantucket Island, Massachusetts."

Kinda makes you want to scratch your head...


mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am scratching my head only becuase you simply restated what I have been saying.... So, do your sources tell you that the aircraft DID or DID NOT depart, whether originally or not, from NY-JFK?

Please! This is becoming rather painful.
post #37 of 59
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i-Sabbah:
<strong>You're funny.

I'll keep sucking on my 'tit' of pretty even-handed, reputable propaganda, you carry right on with your factually incorrect speculative present-horseshit-and-conjecture-as-god's-own-truth internet-only hate-disseminating propaganda. Cool?

Cool.

PS: I still think that ethnic cleansing is bad, and I rather fancy that all the Jews that died in the shoa did too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Eye on the Media: Fear and loathing at 'The Economist'
By BRET STEPHENS

"Israel is a superior country with superior people: its talents are above the ordinary. But it has to abate its greed for other people's land." The Economist, October 7, 2000

Is there a newsweekly smarter, better written, or more globally influential than The Economist? Its worldwide print circulation runs to 838,000. The average subscriber brings in $151,400 a year in personal income. Fifty-two percent of readers work in senior management, and another 27% own a car costing upwards of $40,000. Former US secretary of state Henry Kissinger does cameos for the magazine's TV ads. Vice President Dick Cheney even took a copy of The Economist with him down to the White House bunker on September 11, apparently in case he'd need to idle away the time between phone calls to the president and warnings of imminent kamikaze attacks.

I would have taken a copy, too, had I been in his shoes. For sheer intelligent entertainment, there is nothing like it. It is equally interesting when delving into the science of migraine headaches, the life and times of fashion designer Bill Blass, electricity deregulation in China, or the quality of German wines. It regularly supplies lengthy explanatory surveys on everything from the future of Zionism to the future of the universe. The Economist's hard news coverage can be quirky -- it goes for stories on elections in Lesotho and land shortages in Vietnam -- but these somehow are usually worth reading. At the same time, the magazine stays well-focused on its main beats -- politics, economics, business, social trends -- and most of the time it tells the story straight. Its editorials, too, tend to be sensible and fair.

STRAIGHT, SENSIBLE and fair, that is, except when it comes to Israel.

For years, Jewish groups and media critics have aimed their fire at CNN, National Public Radio, the BBC and The New York Times. They don't know what they're missing. To the editors of The Economist, Israel is America's "often awkward" (June 27) and "pampered ally" (April 6). Israel's defenders, notably Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci, are prone to "scatological excess and testicular obsession." Prime Minister Ariel Sharon represents Israel's "uglier face" (October 7, 2000); he is a calculated liar (April 21, 2001), whose modus operandi is "calculated brutality" (March 10, 2001). In electing him last year, Israelis were in a "bolshie mood" (February 3, 2001).

The right-wing parties in the national unity government are "scary"; indeed, they are "wolves" (February 2). The only way to prevent the Middle East from "burning" is for the US to intervene "swiftly and much more neutrally in the conflict." Which is to say, on the side of the Arabs.

For The Economist to take this line may seem a surprise. In the main, the magazine champions laissez-faire economics and veers right politically. (It endorsed, albeit with reservations, George W. Bush's presidential candidacy.) What's remarkable about The Economist's coverage of Israel, however, is that while other right-leaning British publications -- The Daily Telegraph and The Spectator in particular -- have taken a broadly pro-Israel line, The Economist has gone the way of The Guardian and The Independent, the country's far-left broadsheets.

Stranger yet is that it does so not for traditionally Tory Arabist reasons -- Britain's interest in cultivating good relations with the Arab states -- but instead on the ostensibly humanitarian grounds championed by the European left. Thus the magazine, citing Amnesty International, alleges in its June 29 issue that Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti (whom it describes as "an inspiring resistance leader") is "being tortured" in an Israeli jail. What The Economist does not say is that the Amnesty claim is in turn based on one unverified allegation from the Palestine Media Center. Nor does the magazine mention that Barghouti was wanted in connection to his involvement in the January 17 Bat Mitzva terror attack in Hadera that killed six, the January 22 attack in downtown Jerusalem that killed two, and the March 4 attack at the Tel Aviv Seafood Market restaurant that killed three.

Similarly, the magazine, although not alleging outright that a massacre took place in Jenin, gave great credence to the accusations with its surprisingly melodramatic dispatches. "In the razed heart of Jenin refugee camp," it reported on April 27, "Palestinians were shovelling out their decomposed dead.... The danger of epidemic is real." "Like earthquake victims," it added, "the Palestinians in Jenin, Nablus and elsewhere in the West Bank need massive humanitarian help." But that help, it reported, "is hindered by the Israeli army's sieges."

The Economist did not, however, subsequently note that no epidemic took place, much less acknowledge that the removal of 56 corpses from the scene of the fighting hardly requires "shovelling." Then too, the magazine has yet to mention that Palestinians have used Red Crescent ambulances to ferry explosives.

The Economist has also shown remarkably little interest in the humanitarian tragedies endured by Israelis. Having reviewed dozens of stories, I have yet to see one that names a single victim of terror, or dwells on the consequences for the victim's family, or allows an Israeli voice to have the last word in the story. A January 26 piece that begins with the January 22 terror attack moves swiftly to an allegation that the IDF "executed" four Palestinians "in their beds or the bathroom, or shot them through the head," before concluding the piece with a line from Ahmed Abdul Rahman, an Arafat minion. Another story, pegged to the Dolphinarium attack, also concludes by bemoaning the "dreadful decades of Israeli gradualism" under which Palestinians have suffered.

Indeed, to get a sense of the pervasiveness of the bias in The Economist's coverage, it's enough to quote passages at random.

* "[Sharon] could not, when he was elected prime minister a little over a year ago, turn the clock back immediately. Instead, he joined the diverse and powerful army of spoilers, led on the Palestinian side by militant Islamists, who have managed between them to sabotage the hopes of a permanent settlement along Oslo lines." (April 6)

* "Ariel Sharon was elected Israel's prime minister in February on the double premise that he would make his people safer, and would not talk to the Palestinians until they were. With strong support for this stand, his army set about bringing the Palestinian leaders to heel by means that included bombing from helicopters, shelling from tanks, kidnapping senior security men and killing suspected terrorists. Unremarkably, the uprising continued...." (April 7, 2001)

* "Although Israel has transformed itself into a lively high-tech society, there are nowadays echoes of the same misconceptions about peace coming cheaply on Israel's terms. If Mr. Sharon is a snake-oil salesman, many Israelis, battered by Mr. Barak's shot-gun approach, are prepared to allow themselves to believe him." (February 3, 2001)

* "If there is one single Israeli who inspires violent feelings, it is the prime minister-elect. Jordanians recall the time in 1953 when a force led by Mr. Sharon destroyed the village of Qibya, leaving 69 civilians dead. Egyptians remember that it was Mr. Sharon who flouted a ceasefire during the 1973 war, counter-attacking across the Suez Canal to turn Egypt's initial success into near-defeat. Syrians, Lebanese and Christians all know him as the mastermind of Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, an act that led to the loss of 40,000 Arab lives and to Israel's 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon." (February 2, 2001)

The picture drawn here is, of course, a familiar one -- a demonic one. Sharon, the Jewish counterpart to Hamas's Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. Sharon, the brutish but ineffectual hardliner. Sharon, the quack. Sharon, the mass killer of Arabs. Indeed, reading the news coverage of The Economist, one almost suspects it cribs its lines from Arab press, complete with gross errors of fact. Sharon, for the record, crossed the canal on October 16, 1973, six days before the ceasefire was declared.

Now consider The Economist's portrait of Yasser Arafat. True, the magazine has described him as a "terrorist recidivist" who has "pocketed what Oslo gave him and relaunched a liberation war." Arafat also comes in for criticism for his "lamentable bungling as chief executive of the Palestinian Authority." But in the main, The Economist lets him off with a light slap. Arafat "probably did not plan the intifada." His "brilliance" as a "wily old-time resistance leader" kept "the gleam of Palestinian nationalism against all adversities." He remains, in the magazine's judgment, "unsurpassed at representing his people's aspirations -- and is probably the only one who might, just might, persuade them to do something they do not like."

Not a bad epitaph, one might say, were things to end right there. Yet even by the evidence of The Economist's own reporting, it's a strange judgment. "How" the magazine quotes one Hamas leader as asking, "can Arafat arrest Hamas people for 'violence' when everybody knows that Fatah people led the 'violence'?" The magazine also took note last month that "Islamist and radical national groups have all turned down places in a new Palestinian cabinet." But it failed to explain to readers that this fact owed to Arafat offering these Islamists and radicals places in the cabinet to begin with.

IT WOULD BE an insult to the editors of The Economist not to suppose that a logic informs their reporting and editorial writing. Indeed one does. And it is not the belief that "there is no quick fix, and certainly no military fix, to violence," although this is a theme that recurs frequently in the magazine's pages. Rather, as the editors wrote on April 6:

"Palestine does not fit the September 11th template. For this is terrorism harnessed to a deserving cause: the independent statehood that America itself has taken pains to say it supports."

Put another way, The Economist does not want to see a Palestinian state created in order to end the violence. For them, the end game is not peace in the Levant, nor even democracy for an eventual Palestine. The end is "justice" for the Palestinian people, justice virtually by any means necessary, and justice at the expense of Israel. "The notion that the Palestinian refugees and their families should still, after 52 years, contemplate returning to Israel outraged the nation," clucked one report, in obvious sarcasm.

"The intifada's leaders," added a magazine editorial in April 2001, "mainly members of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, have set their sights, and their guns, at the army-protected settlers who compete for the hills and valleys that may one day be a Palestinian state."

Given the scorn the magazine pours upon the "settler zealots" and their "Jewish nationalist extremist" champions in the Knesset, it isn't difficult to detect where the weight of editorial sympathy lies in that conflict.

Yet never has the magazine expressed itself more plainly than in its June 27 editorial on Bush's Mideast speech. Nor, in my recollection, has it ever expressed itself so angrily about anything. The speech was "the dampest of damp squibs," which could "just as well have been written by... Ariel Sharon." The speech, wrote the editors, was also a puzzle, since "Mr. Bush is after all no Zionist," and "oil has been good to the Bush family."

Coming from a magazine that had endorsed the president, the line contained all the rage of a betrayed spouse.

Most telling, however, was the question the editorial openly posed: "Who are the bad guys?" President Bush, the editorial complains, plainly thinks the bad guys are Palestinians "compromised by terror." The Economist, plainly, thinks they are Israelis, compromised by settlements.

I BEGAN this piece by citing what in my view is the single most egregious line published in any mainstream magazine about Israel in recent memory. The implication is clear. Israelis - Jews - are unusually clever. And Israelis - Jews - are also unusually greedy. This is, of course, a transparent anti-Semitic canard, the most enduring and the most obvious. The editors of The Economist could not but have known what they were doing when they wrote those words.

It is, of course, always important not to jump to damning conclusions on the strength of a couple of sentences. But as novelist Cynthia Ozick has noted in this context, "It all adds up."

"Some Israelis disagree strongly with the policy of collective punishment. Most neither know nor care."

"The election of Mr. Sharon... invites alarming speculation."...

"Mr. Arafat built up shadowy armed groups alongside the official police, and these groups now conduct 'terror' against Israel."...

"This is terrorism harnessed to a deserving cause."...

"Mr Bush is no Zionist."...

"Israel is a superior country with superior people: its talents are above the ordinary. But it has to abate its greed for other people's land."

It all adds up.
---


PS:
It's also interesting how you and that numbskull Harald tried to accuse me of ethnic cleansing when I suggested that Israel adopt a policy of economic sanctions against the Arabs. Of-course the fact that the Arabs have been practicing this policy against Israel for over 50 years is completely irrelevant to you both. Or maybe your intent was to eventually accuse the US of trying to ethnically cleanse Cubans. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />


mika.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #38 of 59
A moment please.

Whether this aeroplane crashed en route from JFK, LAX or the Martian Sphinx is really neither here nor there (although if you are going to present this conspiracist bullshit as fact it might be an idea to get your facts straight first, granted.)

The point is that Mika's supporting his arguments with links posted to:

1) A right-wing Israeli site
2) A conspiracy site called the Konformist
3) A BBC report that does no more than confirm that the aeroplane crashed in the first place, which we all know.

I'd like to remind you, also, Jettaguy, that you're negotiating with a card-carrying fascist here. It sort of colours your view of the veracity and integrity of the man's sources and arguments when... oh, just go and look at the last page of 'Are the French Really this Dumb?' and see a man kind, well, eaten up by hate, espousing lebensraum for the Jews.

I keep saying I won't post any more and then more of this BULLSHIT comes up.

Mika, I don't care how much hate there is in you. Go and kill a Palestinian. Go on. Die in the attempt, go on, do it for the Motherland. One less bigot, one less potential suicide bomber. I don't give a SHIT. Just keep your hate off this boards. It's rude. It's like farting in a lift. It does the memory of all the millions of your ancestors who died for hate no justice at all.

Stop it. Go away.

Rant over.
post #39 of 59
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i-Sabbah:
<strong>A moment please.

Whether this aeroplane crashed en route from JFK, LAX or the Martian Sphinx is really neither here nor there (although if you are going to present this conspiracist bullshit as fact it might be an idea to get your facts straight first, granted.)

The point is that Mika's supporting his arguments with links posted to:

1) A right-wing Israeli site
2) A conspiracy site called the Konformist
3) A BBC report that does no more than confirm that the aeroplane crashed in the first place, which we all know.

I'd like to remind you, also, Jettaguy, that you're negotiating with a card-carrying fascist here. It sort of colours your view of the veracity and integrity of the man's sources and arguments when... oh, just go and look at the last page of 'Are the French Really this Dumb?' and see a man kind, well, eaten up by hate, espousing lebensraum for the Jews.

I keep saying I won't post any more and then more of this BULLSHIT comes up.

Mika, I don't care how much hate there is in you. Go and kill a Palestinian. Go on. Die in the attempt, go on, do it for the Motherland. One less bigot, one less potential suicide bomber. I don't give a SHIT. Just keep your hate off this boards. It's rude. It's like farting in a lift. It does the memory of all the millions of your ancestors who died for hate no justice at all.

Stop it. Go away.

Rant over.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So now Im a card-carrying fascist because I dare to point out the fascist behavior and ideology of your Muslim brethren. These are the most vile of creatures that today roam the earth. And instead of coming to their aid time and again, maybe you could open your eyes a little and try to see how your emotional complicity is contributing to their activities. Your double standard regarding this issue leads me to believe you still havent managed to separate yourself from these creatures and their ideology.

You call me a fascist because I argued that Israel should apply economic pressures in its fight against the Arabs. I kept silence because I wanted to see just how far youd go with this argument. I think its safe to say now that youve shown yourself in your true color. And if anyone here is a fascist, it is you.


mika.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #40 of 59
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

These are the most vile of creatures that today roam the earth.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't you think that sounds somewhat rascist?

If someone said that Jews are "the most vile creatures that today roam the earth" you would call them rascist and anti-semitic.

I'm a strong supporter of Zionism and the State of Israel but I know when to draw the line when and not label an entire ethnicity and/or culture group as inferior just because I don't happen to agree with their culture or beliefs.

The reason most of them seem to hate us is because their own governments exploit the Palestinians to their own advantage to keep the public distracted from domestic issues.

I really hope you weren't refering to all Arabs/Muslims in that statement you made.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>
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