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Qur'an Burning Preacher Rides Again.....

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
This time he is teaming up with the extreme-Right English Defence League who some of you might remember have also been asked to form an alliance with the Tea Party and who have caused thousands of pounds worth of damage to shops and mosques in Muslim areas throughout the UK as part of their racist rampage of hate which has seen several people seriously injured.

Mr Jones will not be burning Qur'ans this time but seeks to build alliances with the EDL racist thugs through a lecture.

As usual, the issue divides clearly into Right/Left lines.

The Right are supporting attacks on mosques and Muslims, banning the Qur'an, people's choice of clothing and savage racist attacks.

The Left are supporting freedom and peace through groups such as Hope Not Hate and Unite Against Fascism.

A quick Google image search is worth perhaps a thousand words.

English Defence League:





Hope Not Hate:



Hmm...tough call.

Still...seems the Right-wing preacher (is he even extreme?) might well be banned from the UK.

Cool.

BBC
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 27
Wasn't it the lefties in France the ban the burka? How come no thread then?
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Wasn't it the lefties in France the ban the burka? How come no thread then?

No.

I think you'll find Sarkozy is pretty hard Right.

That'll be the reason for no thread. Fairly commonplace behaviour...especially for the French.

Quote:
Nicolas Sarkozy is the 23rd and current President of the French Republic and ex officio Co-Prince of Andorra. He assumed the office on 16 May 2007 after defeating the Socialist Party candidate Ségolène Royal 10 days earlier.

Before he was elected President of France, Sarkozy was president of UMP, the French Conservative party.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No.

I think you'll find Sarkozy is pretty hard Right.

That'll be the reason for no thread. Fairly commonplace behaviour...especially for the French.



Link

Floorjack (and probably a sizable proportion of "Middle America") more than likely reckons *all* the French are lefties, on account of their inability to appease the neocon propaganda/lies that launched the war against Iraq.

The UK and France have a long record of extremist thuggery on the hard right. The UK's Hitler-style dictator depicted in the movie V for Vendetta would find plenty of support.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Floorjack (and probably a sizable proportion of "Middle America") more than likely reckons *all* the French are lefties, on account of their inability to appease the neocon propaganda/lies that launched the war against Iraq.

The UK and France have a long record of extremist thuggery on the hard right. The UK's Hitler-style dictator depicted in the movie V for Vendetta would find plenty of support.

Exactly.

this seems a case of binary thinking: if you're not with us you must be the opposite.

Quite a dangerous mindset.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Exactly.

this seems a case of binary thinking: if you're not with us you must be the opposite.

Quite a dangerous mindset.

Although, having said such..... the hardline Islamist "Burqa Brigade" is their religious right... the Muslim equivalent of the "kill all women's clinic doctors", or "all gays are going to hell" mindset.

If it wasn't for the blind, searing hatred that the US evangelical "christian" right wing have for those who follow different spiritual disciplines and faiths, they could conceivably find an unexpected ally in the hardline Islamist world.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Although, having said such..... the hardline Islamist "Burqa Brigade" is their religious right... the Muslim equivalent of the "kill all women's clinic doctors", or "all gays are going to hell" mindset.

If it wasn't for the blind, searing hatred that the US evangelical "christian" right wing have for those who follow different spiritual disciplines and faiths, they could conceivably find an unexpected ally in the hardline Islamist world.

Blind, searing hatred is a description of how some may feel, but it hardly describes all of them. Disagreement with would be a much more accurate description. You don't have to agree with someone to not hate them.

As someone very recently said:
"this seems a case of binary thinking: if you're not with us you must be the opposite.

Quite a dangerous mindset.
"

Only slightly altered to the belief of: "If we don't agree with them we must hate them." Not true overall. You can find examples of it, but it does not make it the rule. No matter how badly you wish it to.

However, having said that, the ones looking to make money on TV are more likely to be the most bigoted and they do get the most press.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Blind, searing hatred is a description of how some may feel, but it hardly describes all of them. Disagreement with would be a much more accurate description. You don't have to agree with someone to not hate them.

As someone very recently said:
"this seems a case of binary thinking: if you're not with us you must be the opposite.

Quite a dangerous mindset.
"

Only slightly altered to the belief of: "If we don't agree with them we must hate them." Not true overall. You can find examples of it, but it does not make it the rule. No matter how badly you wish it to.

However, having said that, the ones looking to make money on TV are more likely to be the most bigoted and they do get the most press.

That's fair, I agree that not all evangelicals are hate-mongers.

However, there is a more or less uniform notion within that community that those who do not acknowledge (their interpretation of) Christianity as the only way, are doomed and destined for "hell and eternal damnation"... ie a psychological manipulation and fearmongering... not exactly amongst the principles taught by the figurehead they apparently revere.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No.

I think you'll find Sarkozy is pretty hard Right.

That'll be the reason for no thread. Fairly commonplace behaviour...especially for the French.



Link

Hard right for the French, perhaps. Comparatively he's about half a notch right of Obama, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Floorjack (and probably a sizable proportion of "Middle America") more than likely reckons *all* the French are lefties, on account of their inability to appease the neocon propaganda/lies that launched the war against Iraq.

The UK and France have a long record of extremist thuggery on the hard right. The UK's Hitler-style dictator depicted in the movie V for Vendetta would find plenty of support.

Nice dig a average, everyday Americans, sammi. That's to be expected from you. Again, it depends to whom we are comparing the French. You're not going to convince me that the the French are to the right of most Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This time he is teaming up with the extreme-Right English Defence League who some of you might remember have also been asked to form an alliance with the Tea Party

Let's stop there. Asked by whom? Did they actually form that alliance?


Quote:
and who have caused thousands of pounds worth of damage to shops and mosques in Muslim areas throughout the UK as part of their racist rampage of hate which has seen several people seriously injured.

Translation: The Tea Part is indirectly responsible for these acts.

Quote:

Mr Jones will not be burning Qur'ans this time but seeks to build alliances with the EDL racist thugs through a lecture.

Mr. Jones is a lunatic.

Quote:

As usual, the issue divides clearly into Right/Left lines.

The Right are supporting attacks on mosques and Muslims, banning the Qur'an, people's choice of clothing and savage racist attacks.

Which people on the Right? You mean mainstream conservatives? Or do you mean true wingnut extremists? We can find examples of extremism with nearly any political ideology. In fact, one could probably argue that historically, the extreme Left has caused more violence. But that argument is as pointless and rhetorical as the one you're making.

Quote:


The Left are supporting freedom and peace through groups such as Hope Not Hate and Unite Against Fascism.

that might be the funniest thing I've ever read here. Have you considered running any political campaigns...or possibly working for MSNBC?

Quote:

A quick Google image search is worth perhaps a thousand words.

English Defence League:





Hope Not Hate:



Hmm...tough call.

Still...seems the Right-wing preacher (is he even extreme?) might well be banned from the UK.

Cool.

BBC


What do those links prove...that there are awful, wack-job groups out there? Surely, you jest sir!
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

That's fair, I agree that not all evangelicals are hate-mongers.

However, there is a more or less uniform notion within that community that those who do not acknowledge (their interpretation of) Christianity as the only way, are doomed and destined for "hell and eternal damnation"... ie a psychological manipulation and fearmongering... not exactly amongst the principles taught by the figurehead they apparently revere.

Wait, now if they don't believe that something good is going to happen to you, and in fact believe that you might be headed down the wrong path, and tell you so, and then do what they believe to be right in trying to point you where they feel the right direction to go is, they are hate mongers?

(Sorry for the long run-on sentence...)
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #11 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Hard right for the French, perhaps. Comparatively he's about half a notch right of Obama, I think.

Add a few notches and you're ball park.

Quote:
Nice dig a average, everyday Americans, sammi. That's to be expected from you. Again, it depends to whom we are comparing the French. You're not going to convince me that the the French are to the right of most Americans.

I don't doubt nothing will convince you.

Fortunately for anyone else in doubt we have these little things called 'facts' and 'evidence'.

Exhibit A: Jean-Marie Le Pen - a rough US equivalent would be David Duke.

When he was still leader of the Klan.

Quote:
Le Pen has run for the French presidency five times, including in 2002, when in a surprise upset he came second, polling more votes in the first round than the main left candidate, Lionel Jospin.

That's right - he came SECOND in the PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. On an extreme-Right fascist platform. He gained 20% of the vote.


Some of his statements during the campaign where he was runner-up to the Presidency and nearly won:

Quote:
He advocated the forced isolation from society of all people infected with HIV, by placing them in a special "sidatorium".

He attacked singer Patrick Bruel on his policy of no longer singing in the city of Toulon because the city had just elected a mayor from the National Front. Le Pen said, "the city of Toulon will then have to get along without the vocalisations of singer Benguigui". Benguigui, an Algerian name, is Bruel's name at birth.

Le Pen accused Chirac of being "on the payroll of Jewish organizations, and particularly of the B'nai B'rith"

Le Pen once made the infamous pun "Durafour-crématoire" ("four crématoire" meaning "crematory oven") about then-minister Michel Durafour, who had said in public a few days before, "One must exterminate the National Front". This was made in reference to the crematories in which both living and dead victims of the Nazi holocaust were placed.

He claimed that the French World Cup squad contained too many non-white players, and was not an accurate reflection of French society. He went on to scold players for not singing La Marseillaise, saying they were not "French".

I don't know what your opinion of most Americans is but if you think they are more Right than this then I'm getting seriously concerned.

Exhibit B:

Quote:
Extreme right political parties have gained popularity and votes in Europe in the last few months. In France, theres also been a resurgence of the far right. Polls show that The National Front, founded by Jean-Marie Le Pen nearly forty years ago, would place third in a crowded field of candidates if elections were held today. Observers attribute the surge to Le Pens daughter, Marine, who is campaigning to take over as leader when her father steps down in January.

Third. If they went to the Polls today.

Btw...most of the people protesting there recently are from the Right.

Quote:
Let's stop there. Asked by whom? Did they actually form that alliance?

Let's not...

Asked by Pamela Geller.

Quote:
The league has also developed links with Pamela Geller, who was influential in the protests against plans to build an Islamic cultural centre near Ground Zero. Geller, darling of the Tea Party's growing anti-Islamic wing, is advocating an alliance with the EDL. The executive director of the Stop Islamisation of America organisation, she recently met EDL leaders in New York and has defended the group's actions, despite a recent violent march in Bradford.

Geller said in one of her blogs: "I share the EDL's goals We need to encourage rational, reasonable groups that oppose the Islamisation of the west."

Devin Burghart, vice-president of the Kansas-based Institute for Research & Education on Human Rights, said: "Geller is acting as the bridge between the EDL and the Tea Party. She plays an important role in bringing Islamophobia into the Tea Party. Her stature has increased substantially inside the Tea Party ranks after the Ground Zero mosque controversy. She has gained a lot of credibility with that stuff."

Link

Quote:
Another Tea Party-associated grouping, the International Civil Liberties Alliance, which campaigns against Sharia law, confirmed that EDL leaders have made contacts with members of important organisations within the American counter-jihad movement. A statement said: It seems now that America and Europe are acting as one, and united we can never fail.

Link

Quote:
Translation: The Tea Part is indirectly responsible for these acts.

I don't believe that. I do believe that if the Tea Party gets in bed with the EDL then the EDL WILL cause Racist violence in the US in their name.

Quote:
Mr. Jones is a lunatic.

Quite. But he is a Right-wing lunatic.

That's the point.

Quote:
Which people on the Right? You mean mainstream conservatives? Or do you mean true wingnut extremists? We can find examples of extremism with nearly any political ideology. In fact, one could probably argue that historically, the extreme Left has caused more violence. But that argument is as pointless and rhetorical as the one you're making.

Hm...we did argue it once - examples of Left-wing violence. I think it was a few years ago. I assumed Trumpy was still looking for examples and will report back when he finds some.

Quote:
that might be the funniest thing I've ever read here. Have you considered running any political campaigns...or possibly working for MSNBC?

No...I see my role more as sabotaging political campaigns and organizations like MSNBC...

Quote:
What do those links prove...that there are awful, wack-job groups out there? Surely, you jest sir!

Yes...we've pinned down the facts that there are nutjobs out there...now we're on to isolating their political allegiance...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Add a few notches and you're ball park.



I don't doubt nothing will convince you.

Fortunately for anyone else in doubt we have these little things called 'facts' and 'evidence'.

Exhibit A: Jean-Marie Le Pen - a rough US equivalent would be David Duke.

When he was still leader of the Klan.



That's right - he came SECOND in the PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. On an extreme-Right fascist platform. He gained 20% of the vote.


Some of his statements during the campaign where he was runner-up to the Presidency and nearly won:



I don't know what your opinion of most Americans is but if you think they are more Right than this then I'm getting seriously concerned.

Exhibit B:



Third. If they went to the Polls today.

Btw...most of the people protesting there recently are from the Right.



Let's not...

Asked by Pamela Geller.



Link



Link



I don't believe that. I do believe that if the Tea Party gets in bed with the EDL then the EDL WILL cause Racist violence in the US in their name.



Quite. But he is a Right-wing lunatic.

That's the point.



Hm...we did argue it once - examples of Left-wing violence. I think it was a few years ago. I assumed Trumpy was still looking for examples and will report back when he finds some.



No...I see my role more as sabotaging political campaigns and organizations like MSNBC...



Yes...we've pinned down the facts that there are nutjobs out there...now we're on to isolating their political allegiance...

You really can't reply with being condescending, can you? I know who Le Pen is. Jesus! He doesn't represent the country as a whole. Now I suppose you'll start telling me how many votes he got. Wait..you basically did that. Case closed, I guess.

As for nut jobs....left wing, right wing...why does it matter? The point is they are out of the mainstream of conservative, liberal, progressive, what have you. They are something else entirely. They should all be condemned by decent people. Jones is a racist, crazy jackass who gets far more attention than he deserves. The problem is that folks like you (but not just you) build these people up and compare those who disagree with you politically (but are still in the mainstream) to these same nut jobs. I know, because you've done it to me.

One last point: Do you find it problematic that there are thousands if not millions of Muslims out there who go positively BONKERS when their holy book is burned? Isn't it interesting how people can receive death threats for portraying the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit on a cartoon TV show? Or that someone can be and has been killed for drawing a cartoon portraying him as a terrorist? I submit that perhaps some of the wingnuts out there think as they do because of these reactions. It's a cycle that must be broken. Someone offends Muslims, or certain Muslims. Certain Muslims go ape-sh*t and call for the person's death. Enter Mr. Extremist, who concludes that Islam is "bad." Certain Muslims go bOnKeRs again---BONKERS--thereby reinforcing said wingnut's perception. You see...the very people who are so offended at said wingnuts are really the ones giving them power and influence, albeit unknowingly. Tell me...do Christians go "postal" when they see a display called "Piss Christ?" Do Christians threaten violent jihad when the Smithsonian has a video showing Jesus with ants crawling all over his body? No. They make phone calls and write letters. That's what they do. They don't get involved in the Cycle of Hate.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #13 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You really can't reply with being condescending, can you? I know who Le Pen is. Jesus! He doesn't represent the country as a whole. Now I suppose you'll start telling me how many votes he got. Wait..you basically did that. Case closed, I guess.

As for nut jobs....left wing, right wing...why does it matter? The point is they are out of the mainstream of conservative, liberal, progressive, what have you. They are something else entirely. They should all be condemned by decent people. Jones is a racist, crazy jackass who gets far more attention than he deserves. The problem is that folks like you (but not just you) build these people up and compare those who disagree with you politically (but are still in the mainstream) to these same nut jobs. I know, because you've done it to me.

One last point: Do you find it problematic that there are thousands if not millions of Muslims out there who go positively BONKERS when their holy book is burned? Isn't it interesting how people can receive death threats for portraying the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit on a cartoon TV show? Or that someone can be and has been killed for drawing a cartoon portraying him as a terrorist? I submit that perhaps some of the wingnuts out there think as they do because of these reactions. It's a cycle that must be broken. Someone offends Muslims, or certain Muslims. Certain Muslims go ape-sh*t and call for the person's death. Enter Mr. Extremist, who concludes that Islam is "bad." Certain Muslims go bOnKeRs again---BONKERS--thereby reinforcing said wingnut's perception. You see...the very people who are so offended at said wingnuts are really the ones giving them power and influence, albeit unknowingly. Tell me...do Christians go "postal" when they see a display called "Piss Christ?" Do Christians threaten violent jihad when the Smithsonian has a video showing Jesus with ants crawling all over his body? No. They make phone calls and write letters. That's what they do. They don't get involved in the Cycle of Hate.

I have become tired and enervated. I start to feel the chill of winter in my bones.

Discussing with wingers is like repeatedly stepping on a rake.

Without the bliss.

I've got a good idea....why don't you add me to your Hall of Shame...

Fuck, I've got a Feature Request:

REVERSE IGNORE LISTS.....

We NEED the ability to add ourselves to people's Ignore Lists and WE NEED IT NOW!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 27
The US has since 911 in my view kept a healthy regard for Muslims within the US seemingly largely intact but that has been in part due to their overly confident view that they could "fight the terrorists over there". The reality is I think creeping in to more and more American's minds that the fight is now on home soil and not just that, their goals abroad have, far from eradicating their enemies power, strengthened their resolve against brutality offering them the gift of moral superiority. The satisfaction of brutal conflict is of course still alive though, however futile and it's seeping proudly (hence the Tea Party affiliations) into popular right wing thinking (paranoid thought). My bet is the Tea Party will dare to play up this "pride (and prejudice) so long as it wins them votes, which may be for a considerable amount of time. It's not though in their interests to alienate those who see themselves within their fold, who don't wish the US to act as a world police force spending Chinas money on more weapons of war and destruction. How this really plays out will probably define the Tea Party much more than they'd actually like.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I have become tired and enervated. I start to feel the chill of winter in my bones.

Discussing with wingers is like repeatedly stepping on a rake.

Without the bliss.

I've got a good idea....why don't you add me to your Hall of Shame...

Fuck, I've got a Feature Request:

REVERSE IGNORE LISTS.....

We NEED the ability to add ourselves to people's Ignore Lists and WE NEED IT NOW!


Why do you refuse to engage in discussion of the content of my post?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Why do you refuse to engage in discussion of the content of my post?

Err.....not sure.

Give me 10 mins and I will correct the misconceptions in it and put your right!!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This time he is teaming up with the extreme-Right English Defence League who some of you might remember have also been asked to form an alliance with the Tea Party and who have caused thousands of pounds worth of damage to shops and mosques in Muslim areas throughout the UK as part of their racist rampage of hate which has seen several people seriously injured.

Mr Jones will not be burning Qur'ans this time but seeks to build alliances with the EDL racist thugs through a lecture.

As usual, the issue divides clearly into Right/Left lines.

The Right are supporting attacks on mosques and Muslims, banning the Qur'an, people's choice of clothing and savage racist attacks.

The Left are supporting freedom and peace through groups such as Hope Not Hate and Unite Against Fascism.

A quick Google image search is worth perhaps a thousand words.

English Defence League:





Hope Not Hate:



Hmm...tough call.

Still...seems the Right-wing preacher (is he even extreme?) might well be banned from the UK.

Cool.

BBC

A bunch of Nazi Facists which the phony pastor should be part of. he is a bigot!
post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

One last point: Do you find it problematic that there are thousands if not millions of Muslims out there who go positively BONKERS when their holy book is burned?

Actually no. I don't. Back at you: don't you find it problematic that the height of your own culture's so-called superiority is to destroy something another culture holds central?

And then call it 'freedom'.

Quote:
Isn't it interesting how people can receive death threats for portraying the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit on a cartoon TV show? Or that someone can be and has been killed for drawing a cartoon portraying him as a terrorist?

It's not interesting really. It's basic stuff: some humans react like this due to psychological factors.

They do this in part because they are backward or the culture they are from has not been allowed to develop.

What I DO find interesting is the actions of the supposedly superior culture. What excuse have they? For them the only way is down....a backward medieval culture can always develop. If allowed to.

Quote:
I submit that perhaps some of the wingnuts out there think as they do because of these reactions.

You say potato.

I put it to you that these violent nutters are so because of the actions of the West over centuries.

Quote:
It's a cycle that must be broken.

That's true. But it IS a cycle and both sides are cycling. In their own ways.

Quote:
Someone offends Muslims, or certain Muslims. Certain Muslims go ape-sh*t and call for the person's death. Enter Mr. Extremist, who concludes that Islam is "bad." Certain Muslims go bOnKeRs again---BONKERS--thereby reinforcing said wingnut's perception.

You need to look with a wider lens. It is not in fact as you say.

If I call you a wanker then, ok, I offended you. Or maybe not. Whatever. We can deal with it. It's isolated.

If I conduct a 20 year campaign of abuse and try to undermine you at every turn, perhaps attack you physically on occasion, certainly spend decades denigrating everything you believe or hold dear, use my position of power to keep you down and construct things in such a way as whatever recourse you have is blocked.....if then, 20 years down the line, I call you a wanker it is not the same thing at all.

Quote:
You see...the very people who are so offended at said wingnuts are really the ones giving them power and influence, albeit unknowingly. Tell me...do Christians go "postal" when they see a display called "Piss Christ?" Do Christians threaten violent jihad when the Smithsonian has a video showing Jesus with ants crawling all over his body? No. They make phone calls and write letters. That's what they do. They don't get involved in the Cycle of Hate.

Several points:

1) When Christianity was the same age as Islam and at the same stage of development - say 500 years ago - then yes, they did these things. And worse.

2) Christianity is in many ways emasculated. Very few people believe in Christianity now in the central way Muslims believe in Islam.

3) Christians are not and have not been under attack and placed in a position of weakness for hundreds of years.

4) the Western culture has neutralized resistance.....ie it has transposed 'justice' to administrators, the Courts and Police. These are the places where a Westerner goes for recourse and the avenues are only open to cases that contravene law defined and transient by the Government.

In the Middle East much of law is personal or tribal. If you go and kill a bedouin's son for example it is the father who will come for you and not the Courts. Courts would be powerless in many Middle Eastern areas. So there is a long tradition - thousands of years - of personal retribution for insults.

Now you may think your 200 year old system is universal, better and in all ways superior to a system that has operated in another culture for thousands of years but that does not mean THEY will accept it at the drop of a hat.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Actually no. I don't. Back at you: don't you find it problematic that the height of your own culture's so-called superiority is to destroy something another culture holds central?

And then call it 'freedom'.

I don't know who has called our culture "superior." I don't think I'd use that term about any culture. As for freedom, it would seem we have different definitions. I am very concerned about our loss of liberty in tis country and elsewhere. The government is far too involved in our lives. I don't think this is where you're going, though.

Quote:



It's not interesting really. It's basic stuff: some humans react like this due to psychological factors.

So...violent Muslims have a mental illness?

Quote:

They do this in part because they are backward or the culture they are from has not been allowed to develop.

Right...see it's just an immature faith. It's only been around since 632 A.D.

Quote:

What I DO find interesting is the actions of the supposedly superior culture. What excuse have they? For them the only way is down....a backward medieval culture can always develop. If allowed to.

How has the West prevented the culture from developing?

Quote:



You say potato.

I put it to you that these violent nutters are so because of the actions of the West over centuries.

I thought it was from mental illness? Does this cultural oppression of which you speak excuse those who go batshit crazy over a fucking cartoon?

Quote:


That's true. But it IS a cycle and both sides are cycling. In their own ways.

Yes, we keep showing Mohammed in a bear suit. How dare we?

Quote:

You need to look with a wider lens. It is not in fact as you say.

If I call you a wanker then, ok, I offended you. Or maybe not. Whatever. We can deal with it. It's isolated.

If I conduct a 20 year campaign of abuse and try to undermine you at every turn, perhaps attack you physically on occasion, certainly spend decades denigrating everything you believe or hold dear, use my position of power to keep you down and construct things in such a way as whatever recourse you have is blocked.....if then, 20 years down the line, I call you a wanker it is not the same thing at all.

Yes, it's all the West's fault. You've made that pretty clear. It completely excuses acts of international terrorism. They're just so upset.

Quote:



Several points:

1) When Christianity was the same age as Islam and at the same stage of development - say 500 years ago - then yes, they did these things. And worse.

Well, I guess everything will be cool in 500 years. I'll make some popcorn and start waiting.

Quote:

2) Christianity is in many ways emasculated. Very few people believe in Christianity now in the central way Muslims believe in Islam.

I can't even imagine how you're going to support that statement.

Quote:

3) Christians are not and have not been under attack and placed in a position of weakness for hundreds of years.

Define "under attack." Christians are being excoriated in this nation...not violently, but politically.

Quote:

4) the Western culture has neutralized resistance.....ie it has transposed 'justice' to administrators, the Courts and Police. These are the places where a Westerner goes for recourse and the avenues are only open to cases that contravene law defined and transient by the Government.

In the Middle East much of law is personal or tribal. If you go and kill a bedouin's son for example it is the father who will come for you and not the Courts. Courts would be powerless in many Middle Eastern areas. So there is a long tradition - thousands of years - of personal retribution for insults.

Now you may think your 200 year old system is universal, better and in all ways superior to a system that has operated in another culture for thousands of years but that does not mean THEY will accept it at the drop of a hat.

Never said "they" would, or should. But, which system is better? Which has resulted in more freedom and prosperity? Which system allows the beating of women and accepts only one religion, and which one strives to be free and fair...even if it never achieves the ideal? The fact of the matter is that our system--while grossly imperfect--is founded on the idea of individual liberty. The other is founded on rigid adherence to religious doctrine. We promote tolerance. The other promotes intolerance. We have an open debate about whether or not to build a mosque near ground zero. The other burns our leaders in effigy if they mispronounce a word. So tell me...which system in better in your opinion?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #20 of 27


Terry Jones - Could Have At Least Manned Up And Burned One Koran
Quote:
With the gaze of the whole world fixed on his small Gainesville, FLbased Dove World Outreach Center this Sept. 11, Pastor Terry Jones shocked an anxious media by calling off his threat to burn 200 copies of the Koran, which is bullshit, really, because the guy should have at least had the balls to torch one measly copy. Right? If Jones, or anyone, wants to get a few hundred million people all riled up on the anniversary of a major national tragedy by saying he's going to burn a Koran, he'd better step up to the goddamn plate and burn a fucking Koran. Just to show the world he's not wasting everybody's time, if for no other reason. At least hold a match up to it and make a few hand motions like you're gonna do it, you know? Jesus Christ, something! Instead, Terry Jones totally wimped out in front of dozens of international news crews who were all just sitting there waiting patiently to catch one holy book going up in flames. Just one! But nope. He couldn't do it. In the end, 2010's biggest coward simply didn't have the stones to go through with it. Pussy.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #21 of 27

Saw that. Love The Onion.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #22 of 27
Thread Starter 
Looks like he's been Banned from the UK

I don't normally agree with such bans (ok, maybe I do hahah) but in this case it seems he was invited by a neanderthal crew of right-wing fascists rejoicing in the name of "England is Ours"

England is whose exactly? Not these cro-magnons surely. Most English are actually French arriving in the 11th century and even the very, very few who can trace to before only date to the 6th century. And they are all aristocrats who, while quite probably fascist to one degree or another, probably aren't in the EDL.

Actually my family are traceable to the old Welsh and Celtic rulers pre 5th century so perhaps I can sue on the grounds "England is mine".

Anyway, the point is these assholes are Nazis and either Jones is an ignorant tool or a dangerous one.

Good riddance...now all we need to do is ban the home-grown fascists.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Looks like he's been Banned from the UK

I don't normally agree with such bans (ok, maybe I do hahah) but in this case it seems he was invited by a neanderthal crew of right-wing fascists rejoicing in the name of "England is Ours"

England is whose exactly? Not these cro-magnons surely. Most English are actually French arriving in the 11th century and even the very, very few who can trace to before only date to the 6th century. And they are all aristocrats who, while quite probably fascist to one degree or another, probably aren't in the EDL.

Actually my family are traceable to the old Welsh and Celtic rulers pre 5th century so perhaps I can sue on the grounds "England is mine".

Anyway, the point is these assholes are Nazis and either Jones is an ignorant tool or a dangerous one.

Good riddance...now all we need to do is ban the home-grown fascists.

The opinions of Jones represents fairly typical opinion of Muslims throughout much of mainstream United States.

The degree of enmity or even hatred that a nation's population (in general) has for one particular group is partially reflected in that nation's ability/willingness to elect politicians belonging to that group... where racial/religious biases are sublimated in favor of recognition of a person's merit.

Despite the enduring racism against the black community in large parts of the country, this hasn't prevented the election of up to 730 African Americans to various positions in US politics, including President.

Despite enduring racism (within some segments of the US population) against the Jewish community, this hasn't prevented the election of 320 Jewish American politicians.

Despite the enduring racism against Native Americans, who number around 2.5 to 3 million (including native Hawaiians and Alaskans), 50 have been elected to various positions in US politics.

There are only nine US Muslims in politics at all levels combined, despite the Muslim population of the US numbering anything between 2.75 million and 6 million (depending on the survey), which represents a similar ratio to the total population as the US Jewish community.

The entire Republican Party, at all levels, boasts just one solitary Muslim politician, Saggy Tahir, a part time official in the New Hampshire Assembly. In 2000, he was the first ever Muslim American elected to any political position in the US.

Looks like the "Pastor Jones Opinion" was, is and will be prevalent in the US mainstream for the forseeable future... especially when opinions and conditioning are so dependent on the stances taken by what is churned out by the "liberal" (!) US corporate media and "liberal" (!) Hollywood.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #24 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The opinions of Jones represents fairly typical opinion of Muslims throughout much of mainstream United States.

The degree of enmity or even hatred that a nation's population (in general) has for one particular group is partially reflected in that nation's ability/willingness to elect politicians belonging to that group... where racial/religious biases are sublimated in favor of recognition of a person's merit.

Despite the enduring racism against the black community in large parts of the country, this hasn't prevented the election of up to 730 African Americans to various positions in US politics, including President.

Despite enduring racism (within some segments of the US population) against the Jewish community, this hasn't prevented the election of 320 Jewish American politicians.

Despite the enduring racism against Native Americans, who number around 2.5 to 3 million (including native Hawaiians and Alaskans), 50 have been elected to various positions in US politics.

There are only nine US Muslims in politics at all levels combined, despite the Muslim population of the US numbering anything between 2.75 million and 6 million (depending on the survey), which represents a similar ratio to the total population as the US Jewish community.

The entire Republican Party, at all levels, boasts just one solitary Muslim politician, Saggy Tahir, a part time official in the New Hampshire Assembly. In 2000, he was the first ever Muslim American elected to any political position in the US.

Looks like the "Pastor Jones Opinion" was, is and will be prevalent in the US mainstream for the forseeable future... especially when opinions and conditioning are so dependent on the stances taken by what is churned out by the "liberal" (!) US corporate media and "liberal" (!) Hollywood.

Whoa....shocking figures.....didn't know that.

Is a bit of a disgrace...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Whoa....shocking figures.....didn't know that.

Is a bit of a disgrace...

Hatred of, or disrespect for Muslims and Arabs, now an integral part of the US scene, has been hard-sold to the US public for many decades. Hollywood is but just one example of such, exhaustively documented in Jack Shaheen's 800 page encyclopedic "Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People".

The regular corporate media has been even harsher; the after decades of absolute one-sided reporting on the Israeli Palestine situation (amongst others), the huge majority of the US public now think that "Palestinian" and "terrorist" are virtually synonymous. Since 9/11, a similar broad mindset has developed nationwide regarding the word "Muslim" and "terrorist".

The US public has been taught for decades to beware the boogeyman (to "justify" the cancerous "defense" budget, and since the "Commies" don't quite cut it anymore re. "boogeyman" status, the world's Muslim community has been assigned to take up the slack... it fits the general US comfort zone perfectly/

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Looks like he's been Banned from the UK

I don't normally agree with such bans (ok, maybe I do hahah) but in this case it seems he was invited by a neanderthal crew of right-wing fascists rejoicing in the name of "England is Ours"
........Good riddance...now all we need to do is ban the home-grown fascists.

Evangelical Alliance welcomes Home Office ban on Pastor Terry Jones
Quote:
....The Home Office refused entry to Pastor Terry Jones on the grounds that the Government "opposes extremism in all its form".....
Explaining the reason for the ban, a Home Office spokesman said:
Quote:
"The Government opposes extremism in all its forms which is why we have excluded Pastor Terry Jones from the UK.

"Numerous comments made by Pastor Jones are evidence of his unacceptable behaviour.

"Coming to the UK is a privilege, not a right, and we are not willing to allow entry to those whose presence is not conducive to the public good.

"The use of exclusion powers is very serious and no decision is taken lightly or as a method of stopping open debate."

Apparently your views are shared by the UK Home Office and the EA. In the US, his viewpoint is given a voice via the 1st Amendment, but with people like Jones and the WBC you wonder why?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #27 of 27
Pastor Terry Jones ban what about free speech?
Quote:
Terry Jones, an American pastor who threatened to burn Korans on the 9th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, has been banned from entering the UK for the public good.....

It is well-known that free speech protections mean that we have to protect the rights of those we disagree with. A recent High Court case involving an Indian preacher shows that the protection probably does not extend to non-UK residents such as Jones, but it may to his supporters.

Article 10 | Right to freedom of expression
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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