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post #41 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Harald:
<strong>Nor do mainstream Mulsims.

Mainstream Israelis however Elected Ayatollah Sharon.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Millions of Mainstream Muslims in the Middle East sure aren't visibly outraged.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #42 of 89
In my case I want to become Jewish because I believe in God and I admire the Jewish people because of their courage.
post #43 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Jane:
<strong>In my case I want to become Jewish because I believe in God and I admire the Jewish people because of their courage.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Being perpetually persecuted != courage

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #44 of 89
The Muslims in my workplace won't come to the pub but they don't support terrorism.

They're pretty damn mainstream.
meh
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meh
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post #45 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Harald:
<strong>The Muslims in my workplace won't come to the pub but they don't support terrorism.

They're pretty damn mainstream.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And where do you live? I'm not talking about European or American Muslims.

This is what I said before...

Millions of Mainstream Muslims in the Middle East sure aren't visibly outraged.

[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: BR ]</p>

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #46 of 89
VISIBLE outraged? Thats a new one. So unless someone is standing up and show outrage they are somehow an enemy?

Lets try this one: Many times the persons killed 911 die every day from hunger, esp. in africa. Many of those countries have a net export of food because its a better deal for "those who have" to sell the grain to european and american farmers to put in the cattle and pigs to make juicy meat for us. Now stand up and swear and curse capitalism and point your fist in the general direction of the closest butcher or you are an enemy of north african people.
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post #47 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
VISIBLE outraged? Thats a new one. So unless someone is standing up and show outrage they are somehow an enemy?<hr></blockquote>
Thanks for twisting my words. Look, all I am saying is that there are millions of muslims in the Middle East that condone terrorism. I'm not saying that those who don't outrage are enemies. However, plenty of christians spoke out against Timmy McV and I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama. That's the difference. Let's stop pretending that this isn't a clash of civilizations.
[quote]Lets try this one: Many times the persons killed 911 die every day from hunger, esp. in africa. Many of those countries have a net export of food because its a better deal for "those who have" to sell the grain to european and american farmers to put in the cattle and pigs to make juicy meat for us. Now stand up and swear and curse capitalism and point your fist in the general direction of the closest butcher or you are an enemy of north african people.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
I'm not saying Western Civilization is perfect. I, however, have no problem saying we are better. We need marshall plans for all these struggling third world countries. Unfortunately wisdom is not part of this administration's repertoire.

[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: BR ]</p>

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #48 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>Thanks for twisting my words.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I live to please

[quote]<strong>Look, all I am saying is that there are millions of muslims in the Middle East that condone terrorism. I'm not saying that those who don't outrage are enemies. However, plenty of christians spoke out against Timmy McV and I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama. That's the difference. Let's stop pretending that this isn't a clash of civilizations.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It isn´t as much a clash of civilisations as an ignorence of other civilisations than your own that always have been there.

When we attack a wedding in Afghanistan, shoot at fleeing soldiers in Irak (soldiers who has been forced into the army) etc. a lot of people (not all) in the west are saying "too bad but remember they invaded Kuwait/ flew
Jumbos into WTC". The portrait of the brides father, who has raised his three children through hard times and now proudly gave his first daugther away when it suddenly was erupted by a laser guided missile, never makes it to NYT. Its the same cultural distance that makes arabs say "Too bad about WTC. But they had it coming". People not far from you cultural or physically have higher value than those far from you and makes you loose the view of the individual. Thats why a small operation on Bush face makes a breaking and developing story on CNN and a train fire costing several hundreds of lifes in India doesn´t.

[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>
I'm not saying Western Civilization is perfect. I, however, have no problem saying we are better. We need marshall plans for all these struggling third world countries. Unfortunately wisdom is not part of this administration's repertoire.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

1) Not all would go so far. Many would say its their own fault. Capitalism gives them the means to make a better life for themselves.

2) But note what you are saying is that: yes unfortunetly our system has flaws and we can do more if we do a or b. I do the same. But actually those analysing 911 also do the same (no matter if their tools are in adequate). They have the distance to be academic about it. Try to ask those you talk about if they wanted the 5000+ individuals to die and you would get another picture just as those saying "too bad about the wedding party, but..." wouldn´t want the individuals to die.

The difference is egal.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #49 of 89
Well Anders, it is a clash of civilizations. In Egypt 80% of women are circumcised. If you don't want to believe that 80% constitutes mainstream, you need a reality check. Women are ridiculously repressed in Middle Eastern Muslim culture. This isn't a simple misunderstanding. Their society simply is backward. I'm not afraid to say that. Imagine the outrage if, for instance, black people were treated the way women are treated in the Middle East. Well, then there would be some outrage.

It all boils down to oil and the pc movement that put politicians' balls in America's purse.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #50 of 89
Then we have misunderstood eachother. I thought you meant clash of civilisations as in the way Huntington meant it. We have always had different cultures. Thats nothing new.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #51 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>Then we have misunderstood eachother. I thought you meant clash of civilisations as in the way Huntington meant it. We have always had different cultures. Thats nothing new.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The thing is that it's politically correct these days to refrain from judging other cultures. Well, guess what? I'm going to judge. This is a culture that endorses mutilating women's genitalia, prevents the education of women, and essentially treats women as slaves. I'm going to judge. These ridiculous ideals have plagued this world for far too long. It's time that someone stood up and said that they need to get with the times or get the hell out.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #52 of 89
scott_h:

[quote]I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama.<hr></blockquote>

When was the last time you were in the Middle East?
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post #53 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>scott_h:



When was the last time you were in the Middle East?</strong><hr></blockquote>
My name is BR. So I have to be there to know what's going on? Well, let's just throw all of today's technology out the window and go back to carrier pigeons.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #54 of 89
[quote]So I have to be there to know what's going on? <hr></blockquote>

To really know how the people on the street think and feel, yes.

[quote]Well, let's just throw all of today's technology out the window and go back to carrier pigeons.<hr></blockquote>

Sorry, friend, but articles on online publications can't stuff the entire world into pill form for you and get all the facts and angles.

I'm sure FOXNews or The Guardian or whatever it is that you read is a bastion of fine journalism, but to think that it's enough to comment on an entire group of people living thousands of miles away and what they really think is laughable.

I remember big demonstrations of support for us after 9/11, Muslim leaders sending condolensces and remarks of disapproval... what more do you want?
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post #55 of 89
Holy Fish and Chips Batman! I thought this was about the creation of an AI Religion. (sorta a joke thing) but I see this is a religios discussion board ON AI. (natch). I got it now....

Okay, my fifty five cents worth say bashing is bashing, and evil is just another way of saying you disagree. Granted it isn't popular to like Islam right now but in another place and time every other religion has embarassed itself just as badly and their followers have behaved just as shamefully. So lets try not to mix the Patriotism sentiment with the Religious sentiment. Obviously anybody on these forms represents a small slice of the demographic pie and we need not try to consume the rest of the pie without digesting our own peice first.

With that said, Hurray for the USA, down with the evil Terrorists, and God save the King.
When it's my turn to be God you're going to be in real trouble...
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post #56 of 89
[quote]what more do you want?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Real change. Words are meaningless unless they are backed with real actions. The atrocities committed everyday against women and non-believers continue.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #57 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:
<strong>Holy Fish and Chips Batman! I thought this was about the creation of an AI Religion. (sorta a joke thing) but I see this is a religios discussion board ON AI. (natch). I got it now....

Okay, my fifty five cents worth say bashing is bashing, and evil is just another way of saying you disagree. Granted it isn't popular to like Islam right now but in another place and time every other religion has embarassed itself just as badly and their followers have behaved just as shamefully. So lets try not to mix the Patriotism sentiment with the Religious sentiment. Obviously anybody on these forms represents a small slice of the demographic pie and we need not try to consume the rest of the pie without digesting our own peice first.

With that said, Hurray for the USA, down with the evil Terrorists, and God save the King.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In a perfect world all organized religion would go the way of the dinosaurs.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #58 of 89
[quote]Real change. Words are meaningless unless they are backed with real actions. The atrocities committed everyday against women and non-believers continue.<hr></blockquote>

You seem to have changed course.
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post #59 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

You seem to have changed course.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Enough tomfoolery. Just stick to the issues and leave the smartass comments at home.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #60 of 89
[quote]Enough tomfoolery. Just stick to the issues and leave the smartass comments at home.<hr></blockquote>

Not really a smart-ass comment, just an observation.

I've got plenty of smart-ass comments, though, and I'll be sure to let you know when I use them. (&lt;- there's one)



"Atrocities" against women and non-believers isn't something limited to Islam, unfortunately. Muslim offenders are by far the most visible today, but let's not be blind to the world and her recent history.

Milosevic isn't Muslim.
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post #61 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:

"Atrocities" against women and non-believers isn't something limited to Islam, unfortunately. Muslim offenders are by far the most visible today, but let's not be blind to the world and her recent history.

Milosevic isn't Muslim. <hr></blockquote>

Just because I want one culture of hatred to be destroyed doesn't mean I want the rest to thrive. Milosevic's culture of hatred also needs to be killed. We must not tolerate intolerance god dammit.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #62 of 89
[quote]Just because I want one culture of hatred to be destroyed doesn't mean I want the rest to thrive.<hr></blockquote>

What culture is this "culture of hatred" that you want destroyed?
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post #63 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

What culture is this "culture of hatred" that you want destroyed?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Islam that condones terrorism and oppresses women. Malosevic-esque ethnic cleansing. Et cetera.

[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: BR ]</p>

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #64 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>Well Anders, it is a clash of civilizations. In Egypt 80% of women are circumcised. If you don't want to believe that 80% constitutes mainstream, you need a reality check. Women are ridiculously repressed in Middle Eastern Muslim culture. This isn't a simple misunderstanding. Their society simply is backward. I'm not afraid to say that. Imagine the outrage if, for instance, black people were treated the way women are treated in the Middle East. Well, then there would be some outrage.

It all boils down to oil and the pc movement that put politicians' balls in America's purse.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is truth.
post #65 of 89
[quote]The Islam that condones terrorism and oppresses women.<hr></blockquote>

If you want to destroy cultures that oppress women and condone terrorism I'm afraid you're going to have to destroy a large portion of the human population.
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post #66 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

If you want to destroy cultures that oppress women and condone terrorism I'm afraid you're going to have to destroy a large portion of the human population.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So be it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #67 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

So be it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You crazy bastard.
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post #68 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

So be it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So in order to make respect the humans rights of women you are ready to kill millions of people : interesting.

I am really impress by what people are ready do in the name of Good.
post #69 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>

So in order to make respect the humans rights of women you are ready to kill millions of people : interesting.

I am really impress by what people are ready do in the name of Good. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm being facetious when I say so be it. Destroying a culture != killing the people.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #70 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

You crazy bastard. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Groverat, your problem is you don't think big enough.
post #71 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>
Very good post, i share your opinion, you have express it in a much better way that i could do.
The last sentance is very important for our future.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you. It took me some time to edited though. :-)
post #72 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Xidius:
<strong>

IMHO, this applies here as well.

- Xidius</strong><hr></blockquote>

IMHO, it does too.

But I have to keep this open, lest I be attacked for censoring religious discussion in AO.
post #73 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>
The difference is that mainstream Christians don't condone such actions.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea. However there was time in early twentieth century when the KKK infiltrated all walks a life including most Christian churches and political offices. In fact, there was old photograph where they march on Washington DC, scores upon scores of white sheets. Proud, full of mirth. It looked like a living cotton field. Did these walks of life or Christians condone it? No. Not necessarily. But they also say very little or take any strong stance on it. I not saying it didnt happen, but they were a minority and gone mostly unheard.

Well, that was then, right?

Lets look at the Catholic Church today. The Vatican doesnt understand all the resentment towards them. All they see is an action a few misguided men, and this should not reflect badly on the Church or its religion. Thats why they stare somewhat dumfounded at the press. Of course, they dont condone it. Terrible as it is. Surely its not their fault, though. The horror for them is not a Priest molesting a boy. Is that it surface instead of being buried in of shed like a goodlittlorumor would be fifty-years ago.

So do I have problem with the Catholics? No, since I am one. Do I have problem with the Vatican? Again, no. Well, a little. They should have known better. However, like most organize religion, they have same flaws in common. Humanity.
post #74 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Mike Ghost:
<strong>

Yea. However there was time in early twentieth century when the KKK infiltrated all walks a life including most Christian churches and political offices. In fact, there was old photograph where they march on Washington DC, scores upon scores of white sheets. Proud, full of mirth. It looked like a living cotton field. Did these walks of life or Christians condone it? No. Not necessarily. But they also say very little or take any strong stance on it. I not saying it didnt happen, but they were a minority and gone mostly unheard.

Well, that was then, right?

Lets look at the Catholic Church today. The Vatican doesnt understand all the resentment towards them. All they see is an action a few misguided men, and this should not reflect badly on the Church or its religion. Thats why they stare somewhat dumfounded at the press. Of course, they dont condone it. Terrible as it is. Surely its not their fault, though. The horror for them is not a Priest molesting a boy. Is that it surface instead of being buried in of shed like a goodlittlorumor would be fifty-years ago.

So do I have problem with the Catholics? No, since I am one. Do I have problem with the Vatican? Again, no. Well, a little. They should have known better. However, like most organize religion, they have same flaws in common. Humanity.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm talking about today. Look, don't get me wrong. I hate christianity just as much as any other religion. Evils have been committed by all. However, let's talk about the here and now because that is what matters.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #75 of 89
Everything must begin again.Now is the year zero.We must live in a pure society.
post #76 of 89
post #77 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>Well Anders, it is a clash of civilizations. In Egypt 80% of women are circumcised. If you don't want to believe that 80% constitutes mainstream, you need a reality check. Women are ridiculously repressed in Middle Eastern Muslim culture. This isn't a simple misunderstanding. Their society simply is backward. I'm not afraid to say that. Imagine the outrage if, for instance, black people were treated the way women are treated in the Middle East. Well, then there would be some outrage.

It all boils down to oil and the pc movement that put politicians' balls in America's purse.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Speaking of circumcised. I was circumcised. For many years they told people that it was for, well, sanitary reasons, [I think?] Then a medical report came out a couple years ago stating that we were permanently desensitized. ---that we lost as much as thirty-five percent of our stimulation. Oh well, the things we dont know. Of course, they didnt ask me, or did I ask my daughter when me and my x-wife and I had her ears pierce when she was baby. We heard that it hurts less when they are young. So what do we do know? I do feel for women who so repressed and torture over seas, Im appalled over virginal mutilation thats being going on, and agree that some of them our backwards. However, we dont have such an outstanding past either. Do you remember our first terrorist? Remember how we fought back? Do you remember when Colonel John Chivington lead the Third Colorado Calvary, a short-term volunteers who referred to themselves as "Hundred Dazers, who swept down during the Sam Creek Massacre. After slaughtering Native American men, women and children but on the women, they would take there knives, reached under womens leather smock, cut around their lower lips of there vagina. They would then hang it over their saddle horns, some with as many as eleven or twelve. Now that something you wont see American History Museum. So if you find your self in Museum, looking upon a little history, think about your patriotism then. I dont mean to defer you from your beliefs but only to humble it. I do agree that women are treated very immoral in these countries but as they say: those who wish to be free must strike the first blow. And I think we should help them when they do, but only for there sake. Not our own.
post #78 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Mike Ghost:
And I think we should help them when they do, but only for there sake. Not our own.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Of course. I don't see where I would have made you think otherwise. I never claimed that we are perfect--just that at this point in time we are better. Yes, atrocities have been committed by everyone. I understand that. However, again let's focus on the here and now.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #79 of 89
Quick, someone take out our evil culture!

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/07/09/bible.study.beating/index.html" target="_blank">Boy beaten unconscious by pastor for not taking Bible "seriously"</a>

The alleged beating took place July 3, according to reports. The brothers thought the boy did not take his Bible verses seriously enough during a church- sponsored summer camp for Spanish-speaking students, officials said.

Court records obtained by Reuters alleged that the beating lasted for 90 minutes, broke blood vessels and caused the boy's kidneys to fail. The brothers allowed the child to take a break in the restroom during the reported beating, documents said.

[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
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post #80 of 89
Sometimes people are filthy animals.
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