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Official Revolution Watch Thread

post #1 of 271
Thread Starter 
I have a growing feeling that the time for discussion is over. Not just on here but in the world in general...the conservative meltdown on here is merely a symptom of this: knee-jerking as only conservatives can they are floundering and panicking - hence the astonishing daily barrage of vitriol, bile, revisionism and outright racism submerging the boards like a Biblical deluge.

The Right have stopped debating. They are running scared and lashing out.

And with good reason.

From London to Paris, from Athens to Berlin - ordinary people are taking to the streets to state their opposition to the unbridled greed of the Capitalist pigs whose only response to the crisis is to stick their snouts deeper into the trough. To state opposition to our pathetic 'leaders' who hand-wring while Rome burns. To the lame extremists whose only answer is to shrilly shout the sick chorus of Nationalism and 'it's the immigrants' (ie Muslims).

The movement against the status quo is gathering speed. I estimate a couple of summers till it reaches critical mass.

This thread is to document it's nascent beginnings while we build up to the backlash - it will be the 60s all over again as I see it. The 'man' will be put to the sword - this time we will get it right.

So..I'll start: Massive Riots on Rome Streets Today

Quote:
On the streets students and workers marched towards Piazza Venezia. Some came with motorcycle helmets and rocks, flares and thunder flashes.
Some bottles and rocks were thrown at the closest point to Berlusconi's residence, but the first major clash came outside the Senate. We watched as rocks, bottles and tiles were hurled at the police. They replied with tear gas and a baton charge.

Then there was a moment of confusion. The word reached the crowd that Berlusconi had been defeated. Some of the students danced and then embraced each other. They dislike him not just because of his way of life and the scandals involving girls and parties. They oppose the planned increases in student fees and the closures of certain smaller universities.

Then the news filtered through that in fact Silvio Berlusconi had scraped through. The mood turned angry. Some protesters began attacking banks and smashing windows. I watched an attempt to set fire to one bank.

It's just the beginning. Of course there was Skullduggery with this vote - but we expect that. This is just the start.

All over Europe freedom is stirring.

Let's document it here.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

this time we will get it right.

Everyone says that for every revolution. I'm curious why you think this will be any better.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #3 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Everyone says that for every revolution. I'm curious why you think this will be any better.

Good question. If you mean do I think some 'Golden Age' is on the horizon then no, I don't think so.

What I think 'we'll get right' is successfully overthrow the status quo - of course down the line things may well revert to some form of dissatisfaction but many revolutions DO WORK in the first instance - it's afterwards they go wrong.

There may be reasons for that but frankly, I'm not thinking that far head, we need a change and we need it now: let's Kick out the Jams first and deal with the other stuff later.

The reasons I think this will succeed now are several. Here are some:

1) for a long time I have been very dissatisfied with the disaffection of the younger generation. They seemed apathetic - for more than a decade I felt this. Now I sense a change - kids of 12+ (ie the next generation in line) are really switched on. They are on protests, they are involved. They have energy and hope and brains.

Youth have to do it. In a few years they will be 15/16 and imo, this will coincide with even more mess the current 'leaders' have amassed.

I sense this strongly.

2) there is a massive underground that is getting disaffected...people might not know it but it is kind of the same energy as punk when it was underground. Is more arty and folk based in the music though but it's happening. You'll never see it in the mainstream till it's almost over and it hasn't even peaked yet.

3) The internet. Not only have the powers that be made themselves vulnerable by going online (look at Wikileaks - never would have happened with paper - would have been shredded for ever) but people are empowered through their own networks to arrange and publish.

4) Our 'leaders' have tried something they never tried before (or rather, something only people like Hitler tried before) : they consistently and massively deceived and lied to the populace.

In the past the populace trusted the leaders even if they were corrupt - now they have been caught lying and building a whole philosophy of lies in the form of the terror/al Qaeda / eternal war mythos.

They've been caught out and lost all trust.

Not everyone disbelieves them but more people than ever before do. That's enough - they can no longer rule by consent.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I have a growing feeling that the time for discussion is over. Not just on here but in the world in general...the conservative meltdown on here is merely a symptom of this: knee-jerking as only conservatives can they are floundering and panicking - hence the astonishing daily barrage of vitriol, bile, revisionism and outright racism submerging the boards like a Biblical deluge.

The Right have stopped debating. They are running scared and lashing out.

And with good reason.

It is amazing that you note all these places and they have a profoundly leftist bent, but you make it sound like it is the right that is under control and taking a thumping. People are protesting because the left has been buying their votes for too long and now they've run out of money with which to continue to buy their votes.

Quote:
From London to Paris, from Athens to Berlin - ordinary people are taking to the streets to state their opposition to the unbridled greed of the Capitalist pigs whose only response to the crisis is to stick their snouts deeper into the trough. To state opposition to our pathetic 'leaders' who hand-wring while Rome burns. To the lame extremists whose only answer is to shrilly shout the sick chorus of Nationalism and 'it's the immigrants' (ie Muslims).

The movement against the status quo is gathering speed. I estimate a couple of summers till it reaches critical mass.

This thread is to document it's nascent beginnings while we build up to the backlash - it will be the 60s all over again as I see it. The 'man' will be put to the sword - this time we will get it right.

The 60's represented the most well intentioned but most selfish and greedy generation in history. The reason the kids are up in a ruckus is because the boomers want to be bailed out but they didn't have enough children of their own to make it happen. The immigrants don't want to pay for grandpa, generational accounting says it is impossible anyway and finally the darn boomers want to still keep living high on the hog while charging in to the grandkids.

The corporations won't be able to do much about it. They are miniscule compared to the size of various governments. You could liquidate Apple computer and it wouldn't only pay for a month of two of deficit spending be it the EU or US.

Quote:
I sense this strongly.

2) there is a massive underground that is getting disaffected...people might not know it but it is kind of the same energy as punk when it was underground. Is more arty and folk based in the music though but it's happening. You'll never see it in the mainstream till it's almost over and it hasn't even peaked yet.

3) The internet. Not only have the powers that be made themselves vulnerable by going online (look at Wikileaks - never would have happened with paper - would have been shredded for ever) but people are empowered through their own networks to arrange and publish.

4) Our 'leaders' have tried something they never tried before (or rather, something only people like Hitler tried before) : they consistently and massively deceived and lied to the populace.

In the past the populace trusted the leaders even if they were corrupt - now they have been caught lying and building a whole philosophy of lies in the form of the terror/al Qaeda / eternal war mythos.

They've been caught out and lost all trust.

Not everyone disbelieves them but more people than ever before do. That's enough - they can no longer rule by consent.

Demography is destiny. One generation believed they could beat that somehow. It isn't about a corporation or about greed. Ultimately it will be about how those who have the future get to shape it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It is amazing that you note all these places and they have a profoundly leftist bent, but you make it sound like it is the right that is under control and taking a thumping. People are protesting because the left has been buying their votes for too long and now they've run out of money with which to continue to buy their votes.

Italian Government: Right Wing

Greek Government : Right Wing

UK Government : Right Wing

French Government : Right Wing

Quote:
The 60's represented the most well intentioned but most selfish and greedy generation in history. The reason the kids are up in a ruckus is because the boomers want to be bailed out but they didn't have enough children of their own to make it happen. The immigrants don't want to pay for grandpa, generational accounting says it is impossible anyway and finally the darn boomers want to still keep living high on the hog while charging in to the grandkids.

As I said...this time will be different.

Quote:
Demography is destiny. One generation believed they could beat that somehow. It isn't about a corporation or about greed. Ultimately it will be about how those who have the future get to shape it.

I agree with that.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 271
cego, could you define "Right Wing" as you understand it and examples of how those governments fit your definition?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #7 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

cego, could you define "Right Wing" as you understand it and examples of how those governments fit your definition?

I would agree with this definition:

Quote:
Right, right-wing and rightist are generally used to describe support for preserving traditional social orders and hierarchies.

Today it is primarily used to refer to political groups that have a historical connection with the traditional Right, including conservatives, reactionaries, monarchists, aristocrats, and theocrats. The term is also used to describe those who support free market capitalism, and those who support some forms of nationalism, including fascism.

Additionally I would say I equate it strongly with Conservatism and a literalist form of Christianity as well as an ingrained support for militarism and/or expansionism.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #8 of 271
The real question is which revolution the next revolution will end like. American, French, Russian or Chinese?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Italian Government: Right Wing

Greek Government : Right Wing

UK Government : Right Wing

French Government : Right Wing

Conservatives came into power in all these countries because the liberals that preceded them were incompetent and/or tired.

Actually, the present conservative tide is the revolution. But nice try anyway.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #10 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Conservatives came into power in all these countries because the liberals that preceded them were incompetent and/or tired.

That's not the point. Trumpy was claiming these Govts were Left-wing.

Now we can both correct him.

Quote:
Actually, the present conservative tide is the revolution. But nice try anyway.

Heh...dream a little bit longer Frank! It's not the conservatives bashing on the doors of parliaments across Europe.

Of course in a way you may be right...I am referring to Europe in this context - it's entirely possible the US will stay in stasis with the 'revolution' you refer to.

But all that really means is that the US will be isolated from where it's happening and continue becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Actually I think there is already evidence for this: I was in Berlin recently which is a hot-bed of resistance. I was talking to some guys who were pretty hardcore activists and you know what? They were all from the US but had left.

There are so many New Yorkers in Prinzlauerberg now they call it NYC on the Spree - and it does have a similar vibe to NYC as it was in the 80s.

These guys will make something happen. They're the visionaries of the US - and they've already jumped ship.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #11 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's not the point. Trumpy was claiming these Govts were Left-wing.

Now we can both correct him.

Please show me where he said that. Because all I see is an acknowledgement that Europe has a ingrained 'leftist bent' (especially when compared to the U.S.)

That's absolutely true. Unions have far more power, and use it accordingly.
When was the last time you saw an American union call for a national one-day strike?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #12 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Please show me where he said that. Because all I see is an acknowledgement that Europe has a ingrained 'leftist bent' (especially when compared to the U.S.)

That's absolutely true. Unions have far more power, and use it accordingly.
When was the last time you saw an American union call for a national one-day strike?

Let's make a deal - to be honest I have no time for this Rightist game of re-writing any statement they feel like.

English is my second language but i think I speak it pretty well and I know what people say. He said this:

Quote:
It is amazing that you note all these places and they have a profoundly leftist bent, but you make it sound like it is the right that is under control and taking a thumping.

The bolded bit signifies in English that I am 'making something sound other than it is'.

The thing referred to is explicitly stated: "the right that is under control and taking a thumping"

So, I say the Right are taking a thumping.

Trumpy says "these places have a Leftist bent" and admits I make it sound like that.

So enough.

I am no longer prepared to discuss re-writings of statements that I fully understand. If you wish I can abstain from commenting on them at all - in fact, nothing would give me greater pleasure (almost) so let's just discuss what I've been saying now and in future please.

In return I shall not quote other people in the abstract - only whom I am addressing.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #13 of 271
Unrest definitely, but revolution I don't see happening. If a revolution were to take place it surely would have to include mass and prolonged strikes which would in turn have to cripple the economy. I can see why that came about in South Africa, but in Western countries I can't see enough people playing an active role to make it work.

Unrest though is clearly on the rise. There's a heating up of left right tensions and they're growing more extreme, especially from the right. When the Tories start to cut the NHS there will be major unrest and I'm sure strikes. But from the rights perspective, the more cuts the merrier, especially in the US.

With nearly a third of American's thinking Boehner tax and spending cuts would be a good thing, the left and right may well end up in violent face to face confrontation-

"The Boehner proposal would continue tax cuts that average well over $100,000 a year for people making over $1 million — tax cuts that are double the entire income of the typical American household. He would do so even as his proposal would withdraw funds from basic programs and services that most Americans of ordinary means rely on, and despite the fact that CBO has rated the tax-cut extension dead last in effectiveness among an array of options for boosting the current weak economy.

The plan would require immediate cuts of $101 billion — or 21 percent[1] — in funding for discretionary programs other than those funded by the defense, homeland security, and military construction and veterans appropriations bills, as compared to their current (fiscal year 2010) funding levels adjusted for inflation (in other words, compared to the Congressional Budget Office baseline).
~ http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3286
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #14 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I would agree with this definition:



Additionally I would say I equate it strongly with Conservatism and a literalist form of Christianity as well as an ingrained support for militarism and/or expansionism.

You need to find a definition that better applies to western democracies.
post #15 of 271
Network X (name still undecided) plans on bringing protesters together-

"We don't want to create another talking shop and we reject sectarianism and all party politics. Rather we seek to have an open and inclusive
process, that really facilitates working more closely including the use of working groups and consensus decision making towards practical outcomes.
We think its important that we can link up local groups and take immediate direct action and working towards doing so on a large scale including;
industrial action, blockades, occupations, land grabs, civil disobedience, rent strikes, etc, etc...
We respect autonomy and find unity though diversity and solidarity with other anti-capitalist struggles in the UK and internationally."
~ http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/12/470057.html
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #16 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Network X (name still undecided) plans on bringing protesters together-

"We don't want to create another talking shop and we reject sectarianism and all party politics. Rather we seek to have an open and inclusive
process, that really facilitates working more closely including the use of working groups and consensus decision making towards practical outcomes.
We think its important that we can link up local groups and take immediate direct action and working towards doing so on a large scale including;
industrial action, blockades, occupations, land grabs, civil disobedience, rent strikes, etc, etc...
We respect autonomy and find unity though diversity and solidarity with other anti-capitalist struggles in the UK and internationally."
~ http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/12/470057.html

Can we ever find an example where the platitudes in the mission statement were actually fulfilled rather than the bloodbath and new elites putting themselves into place?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #17 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Can we ever find an example where the platitudes in the mission statement were actually fulfilled rather than the bloodbath and new elites putting themselves into place?

hang around a bit...you won't be able to miss it.

You know what I would do if I were you Trumpy? Spark up a doobie, pack up and move to Europe.

Get into it. It's happening.....

Things could still turn out cool for you....it's not too late. You can crash at my place even...we'll hot the streets in the day and party all night.

You really should consider it - the dinosaurs are on the verge of extinction but there's still time to evolve.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #18 of 271
Thread Starter 
Back OT - remember this thread is about the build-up to the New Era.

Angry opposition protests 'illegal parliament' in Cairo

Quote:
Braving the bad weather, which hit Cairo on Sunday, hundreds of Egyptian opposition activists denounced alleged fraud in recent parliamentary elections and called for the dissolution of the new illegalparliament.

A revolution until victory, and The [Peoples] Assembly should be dissolved were some of the slogans chanted by the protesters who gathered outside Egypts Supreme Court as the anti-riot police looked on without intervention.

Meanwhile Eric Cantona led a campaign for everyone to draw money from their bank at the same time causing a collapse.

It failed of course but that is not the point: the point is that someone like Cantona is making these moves:

Quote:
"What is the system?" he asked, in a video interview with a local newspaper. "It revolves around the banks, the system is built on the power of the banks, so it can be destroyed through the banks."

"The three million people in the street, they go to the bank, withdraw their money, and the banks collapse ... That's a real threat, there's a real revolution," he said in the video that went viral on the web.

"No weapons, no blood, nothing at all. It's not complicated. Then we'll be listened to in a different way," said Cantona, who in a hugely successful career was once banned for nine months for launching a kung-fu kick at an opposing fan who insulted him.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #19 of 271
Thread Starter 
And a really informative piece from the Rector of my old University:

Quote:
Students carried placards with witty and sometimes obscure slogans such as Be realistic, ask the impossible and Under the paving stones, the beach. But it turned violent as groups of anarchists seized buildings and confronted the police. Pretty soon, there was an atmosphere of revolution.

As in 1968, 2010 has been a year of protest throughout Europe. We saw general strikes in Spain and France, riots in Greece, mass demonstrations in Ireland as EU governments sought to deal with the financial crisis by driving down living standards and cutting public services. Students have invariably been in the thick of the action. There has been an increase also in less orthodox, internet- based protest, such as the hackers of Anonymous who have attacked firms like Amazon and Paypal in defence of the WikiLeaks leader, Julian Assange. Protest has gone digital.

As Rector of Edinburgh University Ive spent many long hours with students in recent weeks, not least on overnight bus trips to and from London, and Ive been astonished by how rapidly these idealistic but largely apolitical young people have been radicalised by their experience. They see their rebellion as less about fees and more about how society should be organised. They reject mindless thuggery, but they are outraged at the rewards given to bankers who caused the financial crisis, yet have escaped any penalty. They are contemptuous of politicians whove made ordinary people and students pay the cost of bailing out the banks. Above all, they loathe the Liberal Democrats, who have come to symbolise all that is wrong in a political culture where politicians say one thing to get elected and do the reverse when they get into office. Direct action has become cool again, for the first time since the poll tax marches 20 years ago.

The whole article is a must read..

The New Revolutionaries
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #20 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

hang around a bit...you won't be able to miss it.

You know what I would do if I were you Trumpy? Spark up a doobie, pack up and move to Europe.

Get into it. It's happening.....

Things could still turn out cool for you....it's not too late. You can crash at my place even...we'll hot the streets in the day and party all night.

You really should consider it - the dinosaurs are on the verge of extinction but there's still time to evolve.

Don't the wife and kids would appreciate that Sego. My own nor yours.

However given the lack of concern for things like money or people to provide things, perhaps you could have all the student radicals over there loot enough for the airfare. Tell them it is for a good cause.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #21 of 271
I say we go kill some bank tellers! Viva la revolution!
post #22 of 271
Thread Starter 
Clashes as Greece gripped by fresh strike

"There really has been some serious fighting going on between the police and protesters"

Quote:
Demonstrators threw petrol bombs and police responded with tear gas as the violence flared outside parliament.

A former minister was chased and beaten by a mob and forced to seek shelter in a building.

The day of action has grounded flights, disrupted public transport and closed schools across the country.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Clashes as Greece gripped by fresh strike

"There really has been some serious fighting going on between the police and protesters"

So these are left or right wing protesters? Why are the protesting? What do they hope to get from the protest?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #24 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So these are left or right wing protesters? Why are the protesting? What do they hope to get from the protest?

I believe there is a large Left-wing contingent but I think that this burgeoning movement is impartial in many ways and open to Left or Right.

Of course the EXTREME Right would not be welcome given their views on race and violence but they would not want to join in anyway. They have their own rallies where they march through Muslim areas looking for people to beat up.

Actually there is a large demo here where I am tomorrow and Friday. Doubt it will kick off though....will report back from the barricades if it does.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #25 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I believe there is a large Left-wing contingent but I think that this burgeoning movement is impartial in many ways and open to Left or Right.

Of course the EXTREME Right would not be welcome given their views on race and violence but they would not want to join in anyway. They have their own rallies where they march through Muslim areas looking for people to beat up.

Actually there is a large demo here where I am tomorrow and Friday. Doubt it will kick off though....will report back from the barricades if it does.

So the ones with the petrol bombs are the righties fighiting for the lefties? And you still did not answer what they are hoping to accomplish? I know you want revolution, but what is the stated goal of the strike? Reinstated bennies? More money? Bringing back the Guillotine?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #26 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So the ones with the petrol bombs are the righties fighiting for the lefties? And you still did not answer what they are hoping to accomplish? I know you want revolution, but what is the stated goal of the strike? Reinstated bennies? More money? Bringing back the Guillotine?

It is possible the petrol-bomb throwers may be Lefties. Or they may be anarchists. I don't know.

If the Right want to help dismantle the system I'll support them as I said.

Good question about the goals: I don't support the goals of the strikes here in Spain and the demo tomorrow (nor do I support the French demos and strikes for the same reason) so I won't be going or supporting it.

Many of the protesters in different places want different things. Here in Spain (and in France) they don't want any change at all - they just object to the cuts. Which are necessary if you wnat the system to continue. So this is a moronic attitude imo.

They would never storm the parliament in Madrid. Well... maybe here in Barcelona there are a few radicals and squatters but they seem more concerned with looting shops and stealing legs of jamon.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #27 of 271
This in the Guardian-

"The UK faces the prospect of widespread and co-ordinated industrial action in the new year, with the leader of the largest trade union today warning that it is "preparing for battle" with the government over its "unprecedented assault" on the welfare state.

Len McCluskey, the newly elected leader of Unite, says union leaders will be holding a special meeting in January to discuss a "broad strike movement" to stop what he described as the coalition's "explicitly ideological" programme of cuts. Writing in the Guardian, McCluskey praises the "magnificent student movement" that has seen tens of thousands of young people take to the streets to protest at the government's plans for post-16 education, saying it has put trade unions "on the spot".

"Their mass protests against the tuition fees increase have refreshed the political parts a hundred debates, conferences and resolutions could not reach," he said."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...e-wave-strikes
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #28 of 271
I don't see a revolution brewing, just some little protests against subvention-cuts.

People are way too comfortable and rich to become revolutionary. People protest, people strike, but all the masses want are reforms, more net-income, less fees... the masses surely don't want to bring the system down, ergo no revolution.

In democratic societies revolutions are pretty much improbable, there are too many possibilities to vent the rage, to change things at the ballot-box, people can speak out their mind and democratic parties try and pander to the majorities' woes.
In democractic societies minorities have a problem as they mostly are too small to project power/interests and mostly don't have voting-rights, but since they are minorities they can't stage revolutuions either.

But let's imagine there were a real revolution brewing, what new system does the revolution want?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #29 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

I don't see a revolution brewing, just some little protests against subvention-cuts.

That's just the start.... there are quite a few different groups and different issues.

Step 2 is when they link up and join the dots

Step 3 is when they gain traction and critical mass

Quote:
People are way too comfortable and rich to become revolutionary. People protest, people strike, but all the masses want are reforms, more net-income, less fees... the masses surely don't want to bring the system down, ergo no revolution

That's always the case - these people never join any movement. They are, in the main, the people who are on the side of the system.

Quote:
In democratic societies revolutions are pretty much improbable, there are too many possibilities to vent the rage, to change things at the ballot-box, people can speak out their mind and democratic parties try and pander to the majorities' woes.
In democractic societies minorities have a problem as they mostly are too small to project power/interests and mostly don't have voting-rights, but since they are minorities they can't stage revolutuions either.

First, I do not accept we have a democratic society. Nor do I accept that we have a voice or the possibility of any real change through the ballot-box or anywhere else.

These reason are why there WILL be a mass movement and soon.

Quote:
But let's imagine there were a real revolution brewing, what new system does the revolution want?

Let's clarify 'revolution' I don't mean necessarily an overturn of the system per se - though I do think it is on its last legs anyway and will collapse from its own inner decay - but rather a revolution like happened in the 60s.

Many people say this did not work but I disagree....it changed everything on all levels: cultural, artistic, alternative and green.

It LOOKS like nothing changed because conservatives are in control (and I don't mean just right-wing conservatives either but conservatives of all types - straights in another word) and they have no interest or consciousness of these things.

Take as an example these very boards where you can see a titanic amount of energy expended by conservatives denying climate change, posting playground juvenalia and abuse to those who DO in fact care about the fate of the planet and all of us - they just don't get it.

But many people do and this is because of the successful revolution of the 60s which gave that consciousness to those switched-on enough to grasp it - along with myriad other things like philosophy, religious insight and gay and women's rights. Again, all things the conservatives cannot grasp or appreciate.

So I think that another revolution WILL come and will finish the same work. More enlightenment on these issues though this time with no expectation that conservatives can listen or even hear.

Let them do what they want...this one will not confront them...it will build viable alternative communities, lifestyles and societies and leave them to their own.

Some points before people get confused: when I say 'conservatives' I mean Left and Right. This revolution will be non-political but will be a kind of divorce from conservatism within the familiar frameworks.

For example: In Islam - there will be non-conservative alternatives evolving to the conservative mullas.
Movements will arise where women lead the prayers, barbaric practices opposed, veils and burkas are seen as what they are: instruments of oppression etc...

And all this from INSIDE Islam - not from the usual Islamophobic neo-Nazis who usually wank on about these things. It's already happening in many places with the rise of Punk Islam and Feminist Islam.

Similarly in Christianity I see a return to the ethos of the early church and house-meetings as well as liberal Christians and gay Christians making their own communities away from 'tradition'.

And in the secular world I think many, many people are disillusioned with society and how it is structured as well as not relating to 'hippie' alternative communities.

They will make something new...what it is we can't see yet but it's in the air.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

All over Europe freedom is stirring.

Are you joking?
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post #31 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I say we go kill some bank tellers! Viva la revolution!

Blaming bankers for a financial crisis caused by government? Not wise.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #32 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Are you joking?

Where in Europe are you?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #33 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Where in Europe are you?

I should ask the same question of you. As for me, I do a lot of business in Europe and with europeans, to the point that if it continues at this rate in 2011 I will probably be inclined to move my business there. None of the folks I know are as ideologically radical as you are, so I guess the "real truth" must be getting obscured by their moderate views.

Your declaration that Greek, French, Italian, and UK governments are "right wing," furthermore, makes me think you are joking. These are center-right governments at the farthest. You can add Germany to this list, and it looks like other states are actually moving towards more fiscally conservative policies and reforming welfare programs set by center-left social democrats. Countries in europe that actually have growing economies, like Czech republic, could be considered fiscally right-wing. So, if anything, there seems to be a continuing migration to the center-right, made possible by voters. Hardly a revolution, and not even remotely some sort of ludicrous, marxist revival.
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post #34 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

I should ask the same question of you.

Barcelona and Berlin with my hometown in Cardiff, Wales where my family are.

Quote:
As for me, I do a lot of business in Europe and with europeans, to the point that if it continues at this rate in 2011 I will probably be inclined to move my business there. None of the folks I know are as ideologically radical as you are, so I guess the "real truth" must be getting obscured by their moderate views.

Depends on what circles you move in I guess. In mine I'm seen as something of an appeasing liberal moderate.

Quote:
Your declaration that Greek, French, Italian, and UK governments are "right wing," furthermore, makes me think you are joking.

If you want to succeed in business in those countries I suggest you research that a bit more.

Quote:
These are center-right governments at the farthest.

So they are Right-wing.

You do realize you just contradicted yourself right?

Quote:
You can add Germany to this list, and it looks like other states are actually moving towards more fiscally conservative policies and reforming welfare programs set by center-left social democrats.

Which list? I know Germany very, very well. I can assure you Merkel is Right-wing.

Quote:
Countries in europe that actually have growing economies, like Czech republic, could be considered fiscally right-wing. So, if anything, there seems to be a continuing migration to the center-right, made possible by voters. Hardly a revolution, and not even remotely some sort of ludicrous, marxist revival.

I'm not sure what your view is. At best it seems confused. It seems you object to my assertion that the people are leaning towards some form of change and are fed up with the Right-wing.

You support your denial of my argument about the people by claiming the Government are Right-wing (as I claimed) but at the same time denying the Governments are Right.

If you can sort this out I'd be delighted to debate it further but it needs some tweaking.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #35 of 271
Debate? Do you think I'm a rube? There is no means of debate when one side is so opinionated that he has convinced himself of seeing truth in pure fallacy -- find ten people (who don't have history with the Welsh communist movement) who think EU governments are right-wing.
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post #36 of 271
Sego can you give us a 3-paragraph summary of what the deal is with (as I heard) the UK university fees going up 3 times? Isn't that going to cripple skilled GDP in the UK over the next 3 decades or so?
post #37 of 271
The university fees went up by about 9000 pounds from what I saw on the news. I didn't see it go up three times.

A new revolution that kills the excessive globalization and capitalism would be nice. We need to be more self dependent and encourage fresh perspectives on life. As it stands, the current 'western' way of living is not sustainable for the planet, but it still gets propagated by the media. We also need to hold the governments responsible for the people. They are currently answerable to the corporate lobbyists and nothing more. There are so many things wrong with the status co and the efforts taken by those in power to retain the same modus operandi that a revolution will be nice. In any case, it is a nice dream.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #38 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Debate? Do you think I'm a rube?

Don't know what a rube is...

I think you are several things....let me know what a 'rube' is and I'll let you know if that's one of them.

Quote:
There is no means of debate when one side is so opinionated that he has convinced himself of seeing truth in pure fallacy

Don't put yourself down...

You can do it. Let's try....

Quote:
find ten people (who don't have history with the Welsh communist movement) who think EU governments are right-wing.

Why? Which people? Who?

I've got a better idea.... this follows on from comments above. Let's try to debate....

I'll ask a question, you answer, then we'll see who's right.

Q: are you saying EU Governments are Left Wing? Can you name these please?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #39 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Sego can you give us a 3-paragraph summary of what the deal is with (as I heard) the UK university fees going up 3 times? Isn't that going to cripple skilled GDP in the UK over the next 3 decades or so?

Three paragraphs might be pushing it! But as Talksense says...they went to 9000 and were about 3000 depending on the Uni.

Not sure about the GDP but it will certainly mean only kids of the rich will go in future - this must have a knock-on effect as it will remove a large percentage of the future potential work pool.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #40 of 271
Talking about education: Watch this video. http://bit.ly/9FliM8 I loved it.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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