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Official Revolution Watch Thread - Page 4

post #121 of 271
1/28/11 at 5:02am
Thread Starter 
So it has kicked off majorly in Egypt. Reports are sketchy but I heard someone got shot...not sure. I think more on the spot reports will come out in the coming hours.

Meanwhile the Iranian Mullahs have weighed in with an opinion.

Quote:
TEHRAN, Iran A change of government in Tunisia and violent protests in Egypt and Yemen are evidence that Iran's revolution is being replayed, a senior Iranian cleric said Friday.
"An Islamic Middle East is taking shape," Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami said in his Friday prayer sermon.

"A new Middle East is emerging based on Islam ... based on religious democracy."

Khatami said the deposed Tunisian president copied the policies of the former Iranian shah and met a similar fate.

"This is God's tradition: Those who fight religion are doomed to fail," he said.

Iran's state TV provided extensive coverage of the violent protests that have engulfed Egypt, saying President Hosni Mubarak won't have a fate better than the shah's.

This needs to be seen in context: he was not speaking to the crowd at the Friday Mosque - this was for international consumption.

And it was felt necessary because the Mullahs are starting to panic.

It's not actually true or theologically sound either. God may well will those who fight religion to win on occasion - in fact it has happened throughout Islamic history. Muslim Spain and the Ottoman empire spring immediately to mind but there are countless other examples.

It's not true either because the 'Islamic Middle East' cited by Khatami is in no way one he would support...he is a Shi'i and there is no way Egypt would turn Shi'i. Nor would he support an Sunni theocracy anymore then he would support Mubarak.

In fact, I don't think it will or should happen. A secular model like Turkey, Jordan or Syria is the way to go. But obviously getting it right.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #122 of 271
1/28/11 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So it has kicked off majorly in Egypt. Reports are sketchy but I heard someone got shot...not sure. I think more on the spot reports will come out in the coming hours.

BBC coverage & updates of event @
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

another site personal accounts@

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12308405
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #123 of 271
1/28/11 at 6:07pm
North Korea's Kim Jong-il 'opposed succession'
Quote:
North Korean leader Kim Jong-il never wanted a dynastic succession but had no other option to stabilise the troubled regime, his eldest son has said.....
Quote:
Hereditary succession "does not fit with socialism, and my father was against it as well," he was quoted as saying in the article, which was published on Friday.
"My understanding is that (succession) was to stabilise the internal system. An unstable North Korea leads to instability in the region."

He said he wanted his youngest half-brother to "take over the great works my father has done. I want him to enrich people's lives," he said....
The ailing North Korean leader - who took over the country from his father after his death in 1994 - is seen as setting up the transfer of power to his youngest son Kim Jong-un.


North Korea's ailing leader Kim Jong-il appears to be preparing his youngest son as his successor.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #124 of 271
2/1/11 at 5:59am
Thread Starter 
Been a bit obscured by Egypt but protests are ongoing in Jordan - now the King has had to take action. Won't do much though.

Link

Quote:
King Abdullah of Jordan has dismissed his cabinet and appointed a new prime minister amid large street protests.

New PM Marouf Bakhit has been charged with carrying out "true political reforms", said the palace.

The thousands of protesters had demanded the resignation of former PM Samir Rifai and action on rising prices and unemployment.

As much as I want freedom for Arab States I just can't wait till this sort of thing kicks off in the West.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #125 of 271
2/1/11 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Been a bit obscured by Egypt but protests are ongoing in Jordan - now the King has had to take action. Won't do much though.

Link



As much as I want freedom for Arab States I just can't wait till this sort of thing kicks off in the West.

Forget the leaders that have tried to use it for their own means, this sounds a lot like the "Tea Party" in the US. Calling for action on rising prices and unemployment.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #126 of 271
2/1/11 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Forget the leaders that have tried to use it for their own means, this sounds a lot like the "Tea Party" in the US. Calling for action on rising prices and unemployment.

Umm...I've got problems with that analogy.

The T-Party seems essentially a reactionary and quite extreme one incorporating bias and prejudice.

Seems a fair bit of hate in that T-party.

I don't see any of these protesters up in arms about Churches and Christians over there do you?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #127 of 271
2/1/11 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Umm...I've got problems with that analogy.

The T-Party seems essentially a reactionary and quite extreme one incorporating bias and prejudice.

Seems a fair bit of hate in that T-party.

I don't see any of these protesters up in arms about Churches and Christians over there do you?

I figured you would have problems with that.

We come back to the hate that you are so set on. From your side of the pond, have you met anyone in the tea party yourself outside of the media coverage?

Please explain your last question. I am unsure how to answer.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #128 of 271
2/1/11 at 8:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I figured you would have problems with that.

Well..it's good that I do right? It's like if you go to a place and see some bad behaviour - or what you believe is bad behaviour - then the mark of a civilized person is to 'have problems with it' right?

Quote:
We come back to the hate that you are so set on. From your side of the pond, have you met anyone in the tea party yourself outside of the media coverage?

Yep, the hate is the problem. If you can convince me there is no hate and provide evidence that the hate I have heard about does not exist then I'll be very happy to take it back - and more, I'll defend the Tea Party from anyone in the future who uses the wrong arguments and show how I used to believe it but was in error.

I have not met anyone in the Tea Party. I do not even know how you gain membership.

I HAVE met a lot of Islamophobe hatemongers though and these would support such things as banning the NYC mosque and would agree with many of the anti-Islam statements of some of the Tea Party.

I have also met some racist neanderthals of the EDL who are forging links with the Tea Party and a bigger bunch of morons it would be difficult to encounter.

Quote:
Please explain your last question. I am unsure how to answer.

While there are examples easily found in Egypt of Muslim extremists attacking churches I do not put the protesters in this bracket.

I do put the Tea Party in the bracket of protesting against mosques and Islam and possibly - though we have no evidence - being behind the many anti Islamic attacks in the US.

Certainly the attacks would be carried out by someone who also opposed the mosques.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #129 of 271
2/1/11 at 10:38am
Huge protests fan Egypt unrest
Quote:
In every revolution, popular or otherwise, there comes a critical moment - a tipping point - at which the future is decided.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #130 of 271
2/1/11 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well..it's good that I do right? It's like if you go to a place and see some bad behaviour - or what you believe is bad behaviour - then the mark of a civilized person is to 'have problems with it' right?



Yep, the hate is the problem. If you can convince me there is no hate and provide evidence that the hate I have heard about does not exist then I'll be very happy to take it back - and more, I'll defend the Tea Party from anyone in the future who uses the wrong arguments and show how I used to believe it but was in error.

I have not met anyone in the Tea Party. I do not even know how you gain membership.

I HAVE met a lot of Islamophobe hatemongers though and these would support such things as banning the NYC mosque and would agree with many of the anti-Islam statements of some of the Tea Party.

I have also met some racist neanderthals of the EDL who are forging links with the Tea Party and a bigger bunch of morons it would be difficult to encounter.



While there are examples easily found in Egypt of Muslim extremists attacking churches I do not put the protesters in this bracket.

I do put the Tea Party in the bracket of protesting against mosques and Islam and possibly - though we have no evidence - being behind the many anti Islamic attacks in the US.

Certainly the attacks would be carried out by someone who also opposed the mosques.

So you have not met any people who identify with the Tea Party, but you have heard news reports of people who have co-opted the movement for their own political gain. What we have here is a labeling issue. Someone has taken a popular movement, labeled it and called it their own and are trying to use that movement to push their agenda. And you have accepted the label and are now applying it generously to all involved.

I know people who consider themselves part of the Tea Party, not the specific political movement as has been branded and co-opted, but the original intent before that. They do not "hate dem muzzlims" as you often satirically state.

Also, with no evidence for the mentioned attacks, why do you continue to pretend that you can point a group and say they are responsible? Is evidence required to make such an accusation, or is second and third hand knowledge and a basic dislike for a group based on that knowledge good enough?


EDIT: Also, as far as I know, except for the branded and co-opted offshoot, the way to be a "member" of the Tea Party is to vote for their core beliefs dealing with taxation, constitutional issues, spending and other fiscal policy. There is no central card issuing agency like the Republican party or the Democrat party. It is more a movement than an institution.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #131 of 271
2/1/11 at 1:03pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
The Koch billionaires started the Tea Party. It never was anything you claim it to be. Also, those tea partiers should stop having such large families.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #132 of 271
2/1/11 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The Koch billionaires started the Tea Party. It never was anything you claim it to be. Also, those tea partiers should stop having such large families.

That is what I am aware of. If I am wrong, please direct me to the correct information.

And stop poking at the sore subject. It is childish of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement
This link has some of what you stated, but it seems it falls more in line with my view. Started as a local thing and was taken over by national interests.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #133 of 271
2/1/11 at 10:11pm
Arab spring?
Quote:
The Arab order is crumbling. But whether it will collapse or somehow re-invent itself is far from certain.
Arab rulers, from North Africa to the Gulf, in rich countries and poor, find themselves in essentially the same boat.
Virtually without exception, they preside over corrupt autocracies with little or no legitimacy in the eyes of their people.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #134 of 271
2/2/11 at 7:32am
Yemens Leader Pledges Not to Seek Re-election
Quote:
SANA, Yemen President Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen said Wednesday that he would not run for re-election when his term ends in 2013. The announcement was a stunning concession to protesters and another reverberation of the popular anger that has rocked the Arab world in recent weeks.
Mr. Saleh, an American ally who has been in office for 32 years, said that his eldest son, Ahmed, who heads the elite Republican Guard, would not seek the presidency either. Opponents of the government had feared that Mr. Saleh would try to pass power to his son.
The announcement came a day before planned protests in Sana, the capital, and other districts in Yemen. Last week, the country witnessed the largest demonstrations of Mr. Salehs tenure, and organizers said they expected an even higher turnout on Thursday.....
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #135 of 271
2/5/11 at 10:09am
Thread Starter 
Serbs weigh in........

Quote:
The Serbian capital Belgrade has seen its biggest anti-government protest in years as thousands of disenchanted Serbs demanded early elections.

At least 55,000 people turned out in front of parliament after the opposition Serbian Progressive Party called the rally.

Party leader Tomislav Nikolic gave the government two months to call polls or face a civil disobedience campaign.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #136 of 271
2/5/11 at 10:54am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

And stop poking at the sore subject. It is childish of you.

Well, discuss it instead of burying your head in the sand.


But back to the topic. Very impressive what's going on in the world. And Sego, great insight on seeing this coming.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #137 of 271
2/5/11 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But back to the topic. Very impressive what's going on in the world.

BR - what do you think is going on? Is it real change or just people pissed off?

Do you see it spreading to countries like the US, UK, Germany etc? Would you agree that it needs to really link up with the West for real change to happen?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #138 of 271
2/5/11 at 11:41am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
I hope that the west comes to understand that these are revolutions against oppression and corruption and are not religiously motivated. I hope that the west comes to understand that we already have Democracies in place here but simply need some voter turnout to actually change things in our countries (at least in the US, anyway. I don't know how abysmal your voter turnout is in the UK). Will we take to the streets in the US? I hope so, peacefully, demanding basic human rights be extended to everyone inclusively (and not the farce that is the tea party).

I'd love to see some Green Party candidates get massive grassroots support in the 2012 elections. They seem to most closely represent what liberal progressives want. I'd also like to see our election system changed so that people don't feel like they are throwing away votes by going with their consciences and trying to elect third party candidates. We desperately need an instant-runoff ranking voting system.

I think Germany will be fine--they didn't fall into the bullshit banking economy like the US, Ireland, and the UK did. Their economy is strong and they'll weather the economic storm.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #139 of 271
2/5/11 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Well, discuss it instead of burying your head in the sand.

No burying my head, simply refusing to be drawn into a debate where the discussion is only going to make me sick to my stomach.

Quote:
But back to the topic. Very impressive what's going on in the world. And Sego, great insight on seeing this coming.

Actually, it was pretty impressive how quickly this followed on Sego's initial post that something was about to happen. Still watching and seeing where these things actually go. Not much commenting from me as my opinion does not actually matter much in the grand scheme of things.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #140 of 271
2/5/11 at 3:18pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

No burying my head, simply refusing to be drawn into a debate where the discussion is only going to make me sick to my stomach.

There's is something seriously wrong with you if discussing the idea that limiting the number of children people should have and the potential effects of overpopulation physically manifests in you as stomach illness. Talking is good. Considering other ideas, some you even may find distasteful, is good.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #141 of 271
2/5/11 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's is something seriously wrong with you if discussing the idea that limiting the number of children people should have and the potential effects of overpopulation physically manifests in you as stomach illness. Talking is good. Considering other ideas, some you even may find distasteful, is good.

Seriously? You are not interested in a debate with me. You have your set opinion which you have made clear. I have mine which I have made clear. I see your poistion as devaluing life. You don't agree. What more do we have to discuss? Any decision that chooses no life over life devalues life.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #142 of 271
2/5/11 at 10:28pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
I'm willing to look at your reasoning. Explain how choosing not to have a child devalues life. Does a family who stops at 2 children devalue life because they didn't have 3? Does a family who has 18 children devalue life because they didn't have 19? Your definition really doesn't make any sense. Please, explain.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #143 of 271
2/7/11 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
Interesting article in the Globe and Mail I just found. I quote some bits:

Quote:
Just before Tunisia and Egypt made headlines, an extraordinary statement issued forth from Gaza. Three women and five men university students all released a cyber plea for progress on behalf of young people, who make up 50 per cent of Gazas 1.5 million residents.

The Gaza Youths Manifesto for Change begins by blasting Hamas, which has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. Then the dissidents scorn Israel, the United Nations and the United States. Finally, their fury turns to Fatah, the secular Palestinian political party that competes with Hamas for credibility and clout. Politics is bollocks, it is screwing our lives up, vents one of the manifestos drafters.

So what exactly do he and his fellow activists want? Says their statement: We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask?

Things are definitely happening....one thing I notice in the above quote and in all protests so far: they are independent - it is purely about freedom from ALL sides but blaming no-one.

The incredible thing is - and if you think about this it is mind-blowing - that in all these protests across Egypt, Jordan and Tunisia there has not been one burning of the American or Israeli flag.

I do find that mind-blowing and highly significant of a massive change in attitude.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #144 of 271
2/7/11 at 1:44pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Seriously? You are not interested in a debate with me. You have your set opinion which you have made clear. I have mine which I have made clear. I see your poistion as devaluing life. You don't agree. What more do we have to discuss? Any decision that chooses no life over life devalues life.

By that definition, choosing life is choosing overpopulation - and choosing overpopulation is choosing war, famine, disease, poverty and suffering. So I choose death I guess.

I thought BR's statement was borderline classism, though. Those low-class people should stop having so many babies!
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post #145 of 271
2/7/11 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

By that definition, choosing life is choosing overpopulation - and choosing overpopulation is choosing war, famine, disease, poverty and suffering.

Really? Why is "choosing life is choosing overpopulation?" Is there an underlying assumption you'd like to tell us about?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #146 of 271
2/7/11 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Interesting article in the Globe and Mail I just found. I quote some bits:

Quote:
Just before Tunisia and Egypt made headlines, an extraordinary statement issued forth from Gaza. Three women and five men university students all released a cyber plea for progress on behalf of young people, who make up 50 per cent of Gazas 1.5 million residents.

The Gaza Youths Manifesto for Change begins by blasting Hamas, which has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. Then the dissidents scorn Israel, the United Nations and the United States. Finally, their fury turns to Fatah, the secular Palestinian political party that competes with Hamas for credibility and clout. Politics is bollocks, it is screwing our lives up, vents one of the manifestos drafters.

So what exactly do he and his fellow activists want? Says their statement: We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask?

Things are definitely happening....one thing I notice in the above quote and in all protests so far: they are independent - it is purely about freedom from ALL sides but blaming no-one.

The incredible thing is - and if you think about this it is mind-blowing - that in all these protests across Egypt, Jordan and Tunisia there has not been one burning of the American or Israeli flag.

I do find that mind-blowing and highly significant of a massive change in attitude.

It is great to see people fighting for their freedom. It's also sad to see how much some wish to prevent it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #147 of 271
2/7/11 at 2:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It is great to see people fighting for their freedom. It's also sad to see how much some wish to prevent it.

Some people are scared I guess....the odd thing is that it is often the people who were never under the oppression but just observers of it who are the most fearful.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #148 of 271
2/7/11 at 3:02pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Really? Why is "choosing life is choosing overpopulation?" Is there an underlying assumption you'd like to tell us about?

BR paraphrase - "large families are bad for the world"
NoahJ paraphrase - "that position devalues life"

NoahJ is pro-massive population growth. This is nothing to do with abortion, btw. According to NoahJ's definition, abstinance is "choosing no life" - it is the "every sperm is sacred" argument. Every menstruation is a failure to produce life, a wasted egg.

"Any decision that chooses no life over life devalues life."
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post #149 of 271
2/7/11 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

BR paraphrase - "large families are bad for the world"
NoahJ paraphrase - "that position devalues life"

NoahJ is pro-massive population growth. This is nothing to do with abortion, btw. According to NoahJ's definition, abstinance is "choosing no life" - it is the "every sperm is sacred" argument. Every menstruation is a failure to produce life, a wasted egg.

"Any decision that chooses no life over life devalues life."

I'll have to re-read through, but I get the sense you might be over-stating and possibly mis-interpreting NoahJ when you claim his position is:

Quote:
pro-massive population growth

And

Quote:
abstinance is "choosing no life" - it is the "every sperm is sacred" argument. Every menstruation is a failure to produce life, a wasted egg.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #150 of 271
2/7/11 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

BR paraphrase - "large families are bad for the world"
NoahJ paraphrase - "that position devalues life"

NoahJ is pro-massive population growth. This is nothing to do with abortion, btw. According to NoahJ's definition, abstinance is "choosing no life" - it is the "every sperm is sacred" argument. Every menstruation is a failure to produce life, a wasted egg.

"Any decision that chooses no life over life devalues life."

It was not just the position, it was how he proposed they should get there and who should be targeted. There is more to it than your 2D version.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #151 of 271
2/7/11 at 10:09pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

It was not just the position, it was how he proposed they should get there and who should be targeted. There is more to it than your 2D version.

Nah, you overreacted. I never said I approved of how things happen in China, but bringing up the C-word made you burst a vessel.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #152 of 271
2/8/11 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Nah, you overreacted. I never said I approved of how things happen in China, but bringing up the C-word made you burst a vessel.

My reaction was strong, and some of it was overreaction. I have addressed all this in another post.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #153 of 271
2/8/11 at 8:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

My reaction was strong, and some of it was overreaction. I have addressed all this in another post.

Hey guys...peace...what does it matter? It's not like this is a religion thread!

Let's get back to talking about revolution - there's dictatorships dying out there!!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #154 of 271
2/8/11 at 9:05am
Thread Starter 
Or oth....fight about it if you want instead of discussing..... doesn't matter much does it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #155 of 271
2/10/11 at 8:26am
Iran opposition leader under house arrest after calling for Egypt-style protests
Quote:
[JURIST] Iranian opposition leader Mehdi Karroubi has been placed under house arrest, according to his website Saham News. On Thursday morning, security forces reportedly took control of the area outside of Karroubi's residence and have barred all family members, except his wife, from entering. The report indicates that the arrest is related to calls by Karroubi and fellow opposition leader Mir-Hossein Mousavi for rallies in support of the recent political reform movements in Tunisia and Egypt. Karroubi and Mousavi sought permission from the government to hold such a rally on Monday, but State Prosecutor Gholam Hossein Mohseni Ejehi rejected the request and warned that there would be serious consequences if the rally went ahead unsanctioned. In lieu of attending the opposition rally, Iran's government is encouraging citizens to attend a government-sanctioned rally on February 11 to commemorate the 32nd anniversary of the Islamic Revolution.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #156 of 271
2/10/11 at 8:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Iran opposition leader under house arrest after calling for Egypt-style protests

Karroubi is not just some student or run of the mill discontent.... he is a major theologian and is a veteran of the original Islamic Revolution and was a follower of Khomeini who was very active in opposing the Shah.

Since Ahmedinejad has tightened restrictions more and more he has been a prominent figure for reform and under constant attack from government thugs.

This could mobilize support for his cause majorly - particularly if the Egypt protestors win and Mubarak goes as now seems likely.

More on the situation in Iran which is now - imo - all coming to a head:

Quote:
Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi, leaders of the Green Movement in Iran, who ran unsuccessfully against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2009, issued a call last Sunday for what they described as "a solidarity move to support the protests in two Muslim countries of Egypt and Tunisia."

In a joint letter to Iran's interior minister they asked permission to stage a march from Imam Hossein Square to Azadi (Freedom) Square in the heart of Tehran. But Wednesday Iran's judiciary rejected the request saying the move was only intended as a political act to sow division in the country.

Still, support for the protest, seen as a direct challenge to Iran's hardline leaders, continues to grow. A Persian language Facebook page, endorsing a protest for next Monday, which is known as "25 Bahman" on the Iranian calendar, has 25,000 endorsements.

Egypt's days of rage, now entering their third week, began with a similar Facebook appeal for protest on January 25.

More.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #157 of 271
2/11/11 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


This could mobilize support for his cause majorly - particularly if the Egypt protestors win and Mubarak goes as now seems likely.

More on the situation in Iran which is now - imo - all coming to a head:

Iran has been taking a hard stance against protestors:

Iran hangs protesters

Iran hangs woman held after protests

Iranian opposition activists hanged for protest footage

For now it seems that the army is siding with Mubarak. Do you think that it may turn if the protest continue?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #158 of 271
2/11/11 at 8:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Iran has been taking a hard stance against protestors:

Iran hangs protesters

Iran hangs woman held after protests

Iranian opposition activists hanged for protest footage

For now it seems that the army is siding with Mubarak. Do you think that it may turn if the protest continue?

Now that Mubarak has gone we will see which way the wind blows very soon in Iran.

One thing is probably clear: Iran is not possible to change quite so peacefully unfortunately.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #159 of 271
2/11/11 at 9:52am
Congratulation to Egypt's people, who would have thought that Mubarak would stand down today? I for sure didn't.

But I'm happy about it, eventhough I know the US (thanks to Bush democracy-initiative) was involved in planning and organising the democratic revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt. Regardless of the US-involvement, without the local people interested to achieve freedom and to fight and die for it, it wouldn't have worked.

So I applaud it and hope that the military in Egypt will indeed only take over control until a new civil and democratic government is elected.

I don't see Iran being next, Iran's government was very clever in endorsing the demonstrations and interpreting it as a movement to get free of the western repression of the arabic world through installed dictators.

I see Algeria, Jemen and Syria being the next fronts.
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #160 of 271
2/11/11 at 10:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

I know the US (thanks to Bush democracy-initiative) was involved in planning and organising the democratic revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt.



So much to say but now is not the time - maybe return to it later - for now I too want to congratulate the Egyptian people.

History has been made today!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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