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Official Revolution Watch Thread - Page 5

post #161 of 271
Acting President Suleiman is as much a potential horror story for the Egyptian people as former puppet-thug-president Mubarak. Now they are under a military government. Is this temporary? Who claimed such, and under what authority? Who knows what may happen now.... Why is everyone assuming that "democracy and freedom have arrived in Egypt", just because the guy who used to wave his arms around and bark the orders has just stepped down?

The Egyptian military might easily decide to (ab)use their new found power, now that the most visible cause of the peoples' ire has (apparently) slunk away into the shadows. There is a current perceived power vacuum, the people are now jubilant, under a false sense of security, with the collective awareness of "OK, we won, everything's now going to be just fine. (On a parallel, remember the election of November 2008???).

One can guarantee that opportunistic conversations and plans are circulating like wildfire around the Egyptian top brass... there are always people who cannot resist a power grab, regardless of culture, nation, political leanings, etc. The Egyptian public have been yearning for free elections, the economy settling down, getting back to work and resuming living their lives again", and in their collective "unguarded moment", it could be a possible case of "out of the frying pan, and into the fire", for the Egyptian people. The military have had a passive presence throughout the protests, but why should such a stance continue, now that the people are exhausted with the cycle of anger, protest, and celebration? That is where the guard comes down, and the power vacuum gets filled.. and before they know whats hit them, its back to "square one", or worse.

I am not suggesting that continuation of totalitarianism is the most likely outcome; however... even though this appeared on the surface to be an exhibition of "people power", in which an unpopular regime was toppled by protest powered by social media internet sites, the fact that this all happened so damned quickly and easily after 3 decades of ironfisted hell does not sit quite right. Things rarely change as rapidly as that without a lot more resistance, and with a huge question mark over the continued unchanged status of the vitally strategic Suez Canal...... Think about it.

Additionally, why is Obama so in favor of this change towards what looks, on the surface, like liberty for Egypt? Why so little ranting from the ranks of the real US power structure, which would be horrified had this been a genuine, 100%, bona fide people-fueled revolution? One of the few hints re. the leanings of such, came from former VP Cheney when he said that "Mubarak is a great leader, a friend and ally of the US". I guess it takes a thug to know one, and we have already found out that Obama is not "the man of hope and change" that he claimed in his bogus election promises 2008.... far from it.

The corporate US "hidden hand of government" behind the "representative" D.C. facade has been gagging for the possible "continuity of dictatorship" outcome, as has the US intelligence/security community, the Israeli hardline right wing, and their representation US DC neoconservative cartel, now operating behind the scenes, but just as effectively, under Obama. The euphoria for Egypt might be shortlived, and the future for the Egyptian people may just as easily be "roasting in hell", rather than "a bright new future".

Rant over.... and I hope I am 100% wrong here.
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #162 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Rant over.... and I hope I am 100% wrong here.

I think you are. It's possible - inevitable even - that the power-possesors will not just slink away quietly. Of course they will try by any means (read violent if necessary) to keep power.

But sooner or later people will get pissed off and change will start.

So the question is: is that happening now? Or is this just a flash in the pan and the real change will start in other decades down the line?

I think it is happening now - and that means that WHATEVER they try (and I agree they will try some funny tricks) the protesters will oppose it.

Which means a fight. Question is who will win?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #163 of 271
Thread Starter 
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #164 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I hope that the west comes to understand that these are revolutions against oppression and corruption and are not religiously motivated. I hope that the west comes to understand that we already have Democracies in place here but simply need some voter turnout to actually change things in our countries (at least in the US, anyway. I don't know how abysmal your voter turnout is in the UK). Will we take to the streets in the US? I hope so, peacefully, demanding basic human rights be extended to everyone inclusively (and not the farce that is the tea party).

I'd love to see some Green Party candidates get massive grassroots support in the 2012 elections. They seem to most closely represent what liberal progressives want. I'd also like to see our election system changed so that people don't feel like they are throwing away votes by going with their consciences and trying to elect third party candidates. We desperately need an instant-runoff ranking voting system.

I think Germany will be fine--they didn't fall into the bullshit banking economy like the US, Ireland, and the UK did. Their economy is strong and they'll weather the economic storm.

Just out of curiosity, what are the specific "basic human rights" that we should demand when we take the streets here in the US? And as a follow on, what if your list differs from that which someone else puts forth?
post #165 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I hope so, peacefully, demanding basic human rights be extended to everyone inclusively (and not the farce that is the tea party).

I'd love to see some Green Party candidates get massive grassroots support in the 2012 elections. They seem to most closely represent what liberal progressives want.

No doubt the Green Party is the modern liberal's wet dream, but I doubt you see how much of what they advocate is actually anti-freedom.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #166 of 271
In Algeria, police flood streets to prevent Egypt-style revolution
Quote:
Thousands of Algerian protesters marched amid massive police presence in their nation's capital Saturday to demand the government's ouster, echoing the events in Egypt that ended the decades-long authoritarian rule of former President Hosni Mubarak.

The Associated Press reports that some 10,000 protesters faced off against 30,000 riot police in the streets of Algers, according to estimates by protest organizers, although Algerian officials put the number of protesters at around 1,500.

AP reports:

Quote:
"Protesters chanted 'No to the police state!' and 'Bouteflika out!' a reference to President Abdelaziz Bouteflika, who has led the nation since 1999.

The heavy police presence and barricades turned Saturday's 3-mile march into a rally at the First of May square. ...
'This demonstration is a success because it's been 10 years that people haven't been able to march in Algiers and there's a sort of psychological barrier,' said Ali Rachedi, the former head of the Front of Socialist Forces party. 'The fear is gone.'"

Yemen rocked by third day of protests
Quote:
Hundreds of demonstrators have clashed with police in the Yemeni capital Sanaa on the third day of anti-government protests.

Violence broke out as demonstrators marched through the city, demanding political reform and the resignation of President Ali Abdullah Saleh.

Mr Saleh, in power since 1978, has already pledged to step down in 2013, but has previously promised to quit.

Yemen's protests have gathered momentum with the success of Egypt's revolution.

"A Yemeni revolution after the Egyptian revolution," chanted demonstrators as they tried to march to the presidential palace in Sanaa on Sunday.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #167 of 271
Thread Starter 
Yemen rocked by third day of protests

Edit: Fine Tunes beat me to it....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #168 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think you are. It's possible - inevitable even - that the power-possesors will not just slink away quietly. Of course they will try by any means (read violent if necessary) to keep power.

But sooner or later people will get pissed off and change will start.

So the question is: is that happening now? Or is this just a flash in the pan and the real change will start in other decades down the line?

I think it is happening now - and that means that WHATEVER they try (and I agree they will try some funny tricks) the protesters will oppose it.

Which means a fight. Question is who will win?

Well, its just been announced by the Egyptian military that they have suspended the Constitution, dissolved the parliament. the military can formulate new laws, etc etc.

Is this arrangement going to be satisfactory to those who kicked off the revolution? Hardly. What will be the result, once the Egyptian people come to the painful realization that it may be a situation of "the king is dead, long live the king"... and instead of going up against an unpopular regime in which the military took an essential neutral position, the people now have the army lined up against them.

Laws are easily passed in any national emergency by those who crave power and lord it over those they supposedly "represent". For a classic and ongoing example, look at the endless litany of anti-civil-rights laws, unconstitutional measures, and plain banana-republic-paranoia passed in the wake of 9/11 .... never read by Congress, just rubber-stamped... none of which has anything to do with "preventing terrorism", but more to the point, placing the people under heavy manners and funneling money towards those close to government.

In Egypt, the generals, once they get a taste of what its like to wield power in the "Arab regional superpower", will they voluntarily give it up, or repeal the laws they so hastily craft? Look at history and universally, anti-people laws come into place so easily, and are repealed or overturned after decades of campaigning and protesting, and usually at a great cost in human lives.

Perhaps those taking the reins of power have been ordered by the powers-that-be in Washington DC... "Do it our way, maintain the artificial "peaceful" status quo between yourselves and Israel ... OR ELSE.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #169 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Well, its just been announced by the Egyptian military that they have suspended the Constitution, dissolved the parliament. the military can formulate new laws, etc etc.

Is this arrangement going to be satisfactory to those who kicked off the revolution? Hardly. What will be the result, once the Egyptian people come to the painful realization that it may be a situation of "the king is dead, long live the king"... and instead of going up against an unpopular regime in which the military took an essential neutral position, the people now have the army lined up against them.

Well...that was in line with their demands so the military in this case is merely doing what the protesters demanded.

As it stands the military have pledged to stand by the protesters aspirations - in this case to see the country through to the democratic elections in September.

So the facts are not really as you present them:

1) The elections will be democratic and in September - this is what the protesters accepted.

2) If they cannot be sooner then what happens meanwhile? No government? No-one wants chaos. The military HAVE to step in...the question is more 'will they ever step down?'.

I think they will. If they don't then the game's back on.

Quote:
In Egypt, the generals, once they get a taste of what its like to wield power in the "Arab regional superpower", will they voluntarily give it up, or repeal the laws they so hastily craft? Look at history and universally, anti-people laws come into place so easily, and are repealed or overturned after decades of campaigning and protesting, and usually at a great cost in human lives.

What you have to realize is that the Generals have already had this power - for the last 30 years. They have the taste.

The game is up for them. I think they know that. Times change and life moves on.

Quote:
Perhaps those taking the reins of power have been ordered by the powers-that-be in Washington DC... "Do it our way, maintain the artificial "peaceful" status quo between yourselves and Israel ... OR ELSE.

Perhaps. I occasionally agree with some of your conspiracy ranting but some of it is irrational imo. Quite a lot even.

The powers you postulate are nowhere near as efficient or 'in control' as you seem to imagine. They are weak and can be toppled easily - which is why they spend so much time on propaganda. If they were secure they would not bother.

Also it is nowhere near as sinister the entire time as you paint it. Sometimes, some people who are 'in power' are sincere - sometimes they are just ordinary people who want what they think is the best but just happen to differ radically from what you or I think is best.

I repeat: sometime, somewhere a revolution in the Arab world will occur and will be successful - it will unite the people and the military and the whole spectrum of society. If it doesn't it will fail.

The only real question is: is this it? If the answer is 'yes' then you don't need to worry about the US or Israel.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #170 of 271
Women call time on Berlusconi in mass protests



Quote:
Hundreds of thousands of women took to Italy's streets on Sunday in protest against Silvio Berlusconi, as a key rival launched a scathing attack at the start of a crucial week for the embattled leader.
"Enough!" shouted the tens of thousands who crowded into Piazza del Popolo, a square in central Rome, as protesters voiced their anger at the distorted image of Italian women generated by the prime minister's numerous sex scandals.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #171 of 271
isnt it funny when foreigners protest in english on their home turf?
post #172 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well...that was in line with their demands so the military in this case is merely doing what the protesters demanded.

........



Perhaps. I occasionally agree with some of your conspiracy ranting but some of it is irrational imo. Quite a lot even.

The powers you postulate are nowhere near as efficient or 'in control' as you seem to imagine. They are weak and can be toppled easily - which is why they spend so much time on propaganda. If they were secure they would not bother.

Also it is nowhere near as sinister the entire time as you paint it. Sometimes, some people who are 'in power' are sincere - sometimes they are just ordinary people who want what they think is the best but just happen to differ radically from what you or I think is best.

I repeat: sometime, somewhere a revolution in the Arab world will occur and will be successful - it will unite the people and the military and the whole spectrum of society. If it doesn't it will fail.

The only real question is: is this it? If the answer is 'yes' then you don't need to worry about the US or Israel.

OK, lets see what happens in the real world. Remember this part of the thread and see what actually went down in, say, 6 months or a year.

If I am wrong (as we all are on occasions), I will always admit it, as I have on occasions in other topics.

Human beings are human beings and human nature is what it is. For someone of your obvious intelligence, the use of 4th grade "conspiracy theory" accusations (as regards how privileged people in power often default to abusing that power).. is a disappointment. That's SDW2000 or Bill O'Reilly land, and its tiresome, old and irrelevant. To which "conspiracy rants of mine" are you referring?

Shame that a potentially useful discussion has to end up being dragged into in the schoolyard... oh well, whatever.... Can't win 'em all.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #173 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

OK, lets see what happens in the real world. Remember this part of the thread and see what actually went down in, say, 6 months or a year.

If I am wrong (as we all are on occasions), I will always admit it, as I have on occasions in other topics.

Human beings are human beings and human nature is what it is. For someone of your obvious intelligence, the use of 4th grade "conspiracy theory" accusations (as regards how privileged people in power often default to abusing that power).. is a disappointment. That's SDW2000 or Bill O'Reilly land, and its tiresome, old and irrelevant. To which "conspiracy rants of mine" are you referring?

Shame that a potentially useful discussion has to end up being dragged into in the schoolyard... oh well, whatever.... Can't win 'em all.

I'm just saying that although there are people who constantly try to manipulate everything for their own selfish ends and lie about it routinely - US and Israel spring to mind - two factors are important:

1) there is no longer - as in the past - a need to conspire. Possibly for the first time in history the sheep are no nearly 100% under control.

Anything the powers that be want to do they can just say it to the face and the sheep will bleat in agreement - or more likely, not even hear it and go back to the TV.

2) Following on from the above - we are now in a different ball game. Which is why revolutions will occur. Because the powers that be have taken off the mask.

Conspiracies are only necessary to stop the populace finding out the truth about the rulers - now that doesn't matter. And that is what leaves the space for NON BRAINWASHED people to openly revolt.

And that means non-western people.....hence revolutions all over the Islamic world.

Hopefully that will mean a spread to the West - though that seems highly unlikely to be honest. But in any case it will mean a renaissance of the Islamic World which sees the opportunity to join India and China in the new order of things.

Whichever way it goes the West will be increasingly sidelined.

Sorry you sense the whiff of the playground....I smell it a lot round here but not so much recently as the main culprits seem more or less quiesced but I don't sense it now. I think you may be wrong about that.

Anyway, I take you up on your 6 months but it needs longer I think to be able to tell.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #174 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

isnt it funny when foreigners protest in english on their home turf?

You're not a foreigner if you are on your own home turf.

IMO the signs are in English for the foreign press.....or is this proof of US involvement?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #175 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Algeria

Algeria government to lift 19-year state of emergency
Quote:
[JURIST] Algerian Foreign Minister Mourad Medelci said Monday the government will end the 19-year-old state of emergency laws amidst growing protests in Algeria and the ongoing protests in Tunisia and Egypt. Medelci told French radio station Europe 1 that the state of emergency will end in a few days [Al Jazeera report] but dismissed concerns that Algeria could end up like Tunisia and Egypt. The announcement comes after large demonstrations erupted across the country, with thousands violating a police ban by protesting in the capital Algiers. Medelci said that President Abdelaziz Bouteflika was considering making concessions and adjusting the government. Bouteflika's comments earlier this month also suggested an end to the state of emergency.

Algeria has been under a state of emergency since 1992 when the military canceled elections [WP report] fearing a win by religious fundamentalists. The state of emergency was declared [DOS backgrounder] after it became apparent that the militant Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) would win control of the government. The FIS grew in popularity after Algeria's new constitution in 1989 that allowed multiple political parties. Bouteflika came to power, winning the presidency in 1999 with 70 percent of the official vote and appearing to have the backing of the military. Algeria has struggled to maintain a stable government since gaining its independence from France in 1961. Voters in France overwhelmingly approved self-determination [JURIST backgrounder] for Algeria on January 8, 1961, by a 75 percent margin, ending nearly a decade of fighting in the French-Algerian War. On July 1, 1961, Algerians elected to become an independent nation by a near-unanimous margin.



State of Emergency
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #176 of 271
Thread Starter 
Next up:

Teheran
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #177 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Next up:

Teheran

If there are more demonstrations in Teheran, IMO this will be a bloody one. We got a preview after the 2009 elections. As posted above, Teheran doesn't take kindly to protestors....the end of a rope seems to be their answer.

@ http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=157
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #178 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

If there are more demonstrations in Teheran, IMO this will be a bloody one. We got a preview after the 2009 elections. As posted above, Teheran doesn't take kindly to protestors....the end of a rope seems to be their answer.

@ http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=157

True...which is what has kept the lid on it for the last decades. But it also means that if it kicks off the protesters will win.

Is much more tricky though. Ahemdinejad is fragile and could be jettisoned by the clerics as a sop. Difficult one...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #179 of 271
The first shots that started the US Civil War were fired upon Fort Sumpter by rebel troops. Now they want to mint their own coinage......dam rebs

South Carolina lawmaker wants separate currency for state
Quote:
A South Carolina state politician wants the state to develop its own gold and silver-based currency in case the Federal Reserve collapses and hyper-inflation ensues.
"If folks lose faith in the dollar, we need to have some kind of backup," State Sen. Lee Bright told the Spartanburg Herald Journal's Stephen Largen. His bill asks a committee to look into the development of a state currency, citing the Constitution and Supreme Court precedents to prove the bill's legality.....

無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #180 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

The first shots that started the US Civil War were fired upon Fort Sumpter by rebel troops. Now they want to mint their own coinage......dam rebs

South Carolina lawmaker wants separate currency for state

Sounds like a good idea, though a better idea is for government to get out of the currency/monetary (and credit) business altogether. Let's have a free (as in speech) monetary (and banking) system.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #181 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Sounds like a good idea, though a better idea is for government to get out of the currency/monetary (and credit) business altogether. Let's have a free (as in speech) monetary (and banking) system.

And this is related to Revolution Watching how?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #182 of 271
Thread Starter 
Back OT - is this the start of the spread of the first seeds to the UK?

Guy Ritchie's £6million London mansion invaded by squatters... who plan to set up a new school

Cool! Love it! Richie is such a tosser - couldn't happen to a nicer guy!!!!

Quote:
A £6million London mansion belonging to Guy Ritchie has been taken over by squatters.
The dozen or so invaders have moved into the Lock Stock And Two Smoking Barrels director’s Grade-I listed property.
Last night they were calling for reinforcement via Twitter, as news of the occupation spread over the internet.

The squatter gang claimed they were running a temporary school, offering other squatters classes in tarot, house occupation and using public transport for free.





A police spokesman said officers had been called to the property on Sunday. He added: ‘Police attended the scene at 2.45pm. But there was nothing there for the police to take action over.’
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #183 of 271
Iran unrest: MPs call for death of Mousavi and Karroubi
Quote:
Members of Iran's parliament have called for opposition leaders Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi to be tried and executed.
State TV showed some 50 conservative MPs marching through parliament's main hall on Tuesday, chanting "Death to Mousavi, death to Karroubi".
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #184 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:

If it kicks off over there I'm seriously thinking of going over and joining in. Not sure it will just yet though....needs more of a push.

And this is one area where Sammi Jo may be right - the US has been sponsoring terrorists over there to go on bombing campaigns for quite some time and they may well have sleepers in place ready to maim and kill if anything does get going.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #185 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

If it kicks off over there I'm seriously thinking of going over and joining in. Not sure it will just yet though....needs more of a push.

And this is one area where Sammi Jo may be right - the US has been sponsoring terrorists over there to go on bombing campaigns for quite some time and they may well have sleepers in place ready to maim and kill if anything does get going.

May be sooner than you think as Iran's Government Strikes Back.

Quote:
The Iranian government arrested hundreds of people as opposition leaders were threatened with execution, a day after the largest protests in a year prompted clashes in which at least two people were killed and dozens injured.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #186 of 271


Libya: Violent protests rock city of Benghazi
Quote:
Hundreds of people have clashed with police and government supporters in the Libyan city of Benghazi.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #187 of 271
Bahrain Police Crack Down; 5 Dead and Hundreds Hurt
Quote:
MANAMA, Bahrain Without warning, hundreds of heavily armed riot police officers rushed into Pearl Square here early Thursday, firing shotguns, tear gas and concussion grenades at the thousands of demonstrators who were sleeping there as part of a widening protest against the nations absolute monarchy.....

Protests across the Middle East and North Africa
Live-updates when events happen.

Shy U.S. Intellectual Created Playbook Used in a Revolution
Quote:
...Few Americans have heard of Mr. Sharp. But for decades, his practical writings on nonviolent revolution most notably From Dictatorship to Democracy, a 93-page guide to toppling autocrats, available for download in 24 languages have inspired dissidents around the world, including in Burma, Bosnia, Estonia and Zimbabwe, and now Tunisia and Egypt.

When Egypts April 6 Youth Movement was struggling to recover from a failed effort in 2005, its leaders tossed around crazy ideas about bringing down the government, said Ahmed Maher, a leading strategist. They stumbled on Mr. Sharp while examining the Serbian movement Otpor, which he had influenced.....
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #188 of 271
The American revolution finally begins too-

"Where Tuesdays mid-day protests drew crowds estimated at 12,000 to 15,000, Wednesday's mid-day rally drew 30,000, according to estimates by organizers. Madison Police Chief Noble Wray, a veteran of 27 years on the citys force, said he had has never see a protest of this size at the Capitol and he noted that, while crowd estimates usually just measure those outside, this time the inside of the sprawling state Capitol was packed.
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_824697.html


"The presumed reason for their disappearance is that Democrats and thousands of teachers, state workers and students vigorously oppose the Republican-backed bill that would sharply curtail the collective bargaining rights and slash benefits for most public sector workers, including teachers, in the state. Republicans control the Senate by a 19-to-14 margin, but 20 senators and thus, at least one Democrat are needed to vote on a bill.

This is the ultimate shutdown, Scott Fitzgerald, the Republicans leader in the senate, said angrily after it became clear that no Democrats were present. I guess what they decided to do was just not show up today.
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/us...nted=1&_r=1&hp
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #189 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The American revolution finally begins too-

"Where Tuesday’s mid-day protests drew crowds estimated at 12,000 to 15,000, Wednesday's mid-day rally drew 30,000, according to estimates by organizers. Madison Police Chief Noble Wray, a veteran of 27 years on the city’s force, said he had has never see a protest of this size at the Capitol – and he noted that, while crowd estimates usually just measure those outside, this time the inside of the sprawling state Capitol was “packed.”
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_824697.html


"The presumed reason for their disappearance is that Democrats — and thousands of teachers, state workers and students — vigorously oppose the Republican-backed bill that would sharply curtail the collective bargaining rights and slash benefits for most public sector workers, including teachers, in the state. Republicans control the Senate by a 19-to-14 margin, but 20 senators — and thus, at least one Democrat — are needed to vote on a bill.

“This is the ultimate shutdown,” Scott Fitzgerald, the Republicans’ leader in the senate, said angrily after it became clear that no Democrats were present. “I guess what they decided to do was just not show up today.”
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/us...nted=1&_r=1&hp

Ummm...yeah...these protests are a little different. They're about not getting enough government...these are tax receivers complaining that their luxury gravy train might be coming to an end.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #190 of 271
Libya protests: Death in al-Bayda as unrest spreads
Quote:
This week's protests are the first in Libya, where dissent is rarely allowed.
Pro-government activists were also out on the streets in the capital, Tripoli. They shouted slogans in support of Libya's leader, Muammar Gaddafi.
The demonstrators in Green Square shouted: "We are defending Gaddafi and the revolution!" and "The revolution continues!" Others hurled insults at foreign media....
Amnesty International says protester Nacer Miftah Gout'ani was shot dead when security forces opened fire on demonstrators in al-Bayda. Dozens more were injured.
However, it said unconfirmed reports suggested as many as 12 people had been killed in the last two days.
Activists used social networking websites such as Facebook and Twitter to call for a "Day of Rage" on Thursday.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #191 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The American revolution finally begins too-

"Where Tuesdays mid-day protests drew crowds estimated at 12,000 to 15,000, Wednesday's mid-day rally drew 30,000, according to estimates by organizers. Madison Police Chief Noble Wray, a veteran of 27 years on the citys force, said he had has never see a protest of this size at the Capitol and he noted that, while crowd estimates usually just measure those outside, this time the inside of the sprawling state Capitol was packed.
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_824697.html


"The presumed reason for their disappearance is that Democrats and thousands of teachers, state workers and students vigorously oppose the Republican-backed bill that would sharply curtail the collective bargaining rights and slash benefits for most public sector workers, including teachers, in the state. Republicans control the Senate by a 19-to-14 margin, but 20 senators and thus, at least one Democrat are needed to vote on a bill.

This is the ultimate shutdown, Scott Fitzgerald, the Republicans leader in the senate, said angrily after it became clear that no Democrats were present. I guess what they decided to do was just not show up today.
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/us...nted=1&_r=1&hp

Revolution? Really?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #192 of 271
12 killed in Libya protests
Quote:
At least 12 people were killed and dozens injured in anti-government protests in Libya's northeastern city of Al-Baida and eastern city of Benghazi, media reports said. Inspired by popular and successful uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, the protesters had called for a "Day of Rage" Thursday in a bid to challenge the 41-year rule of Muammar Gaddafi, who has been accused of human rights abuses.

Citing opposition websites and non-government organisations, Al-Arabiya news agency reported that security forces and militia of the Revolutionary Committees opened fire on the peaceful, mostly young demonstrators in the city of Al-Baida, killing at least six people.

However, Human Rights Solidarity, a Geneva-based human rights group, put the toll at 13. Witnesses in Al-Baida reported that several snipers opened fire from the tops of buildings, killing at least 13 demonstrators, it said.

Bahrain tense ahead of funerals
Quote:
Troops and tanks have locked down Manama, the Bahraini capital, and a ban has been announced on public gatherings as pro-reform supporters bury their dead after a day of violent security crackdown.

Tanks and armoured personnel carriers were patrolling the streets of Manama on Friday, where checkpoints have been set up by the country's military.

Al Jazeera's correspondent, who cannot be named for security reasons, reported that thousands of people observed the funerals of three people who had been killed in a pre-dawn police raid on a protest.

Many of those present chanted slogans against Bahrain's ruling family. They said they were both grief-stricken and angry at the heavy-handedness of the police, and that they were demanding that the international community take notice of what they call the brutality of the security forces.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #193 of 271

This is an interesting book, thanks for posting it, but this part is espescially interesting:

Quote:
A military coup d’état against a dictatorship might appear to be
relatively one of the easiest and quickest ways to remove a particularly
repugnant regime. However, there are very serious problems
with that technique. Most importantly, it leaves in place the existing
maldistribution of power between the population and the elite in
control of the government and its military forces. The removal of
particular persons and cliques from the governing positions most
likely will merely make it possible for another group to take their
place. Theoretically, this group might be milder in its behavior and
be open in limited ways to democratic reforms. However, the opposite
is as likely to be the case.
After consolidating its position, the new clique may turn out to
be more ruthless and more ambitious than the old one. Consequently,
the new clique —
in which hopes may have been placed — will be
able to do whatever it wants without concern for democracy or
human rights. That is not an acceptable answer to the problem of
dictatorship.

Hasn't a military coup just get rid of Mubarak? It will be interesting to see if what is warned against here will occur in Egypt.

Another interesting aspect is that the Muslim Brotherhood came to the same conclusion as this author but long before him, namely that violent means are futile against a powerful dictatorship and therefore they did nearly the same as described in this book, instead going the non-violent-route and trying to teach the society, building institutions and organizations in order to strengthen its resistance-potential until they are ready to take part in a long non-violent struggle with the dictatorship.

Obviously the muslim brotherhood thinks the population is not yet ready for such a long struggle, this current revolution is not one organized by the muslim brotherhood.
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #194 of 271
Thread Starter 
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Hasn't a military coup just get rid of Mubarak?

No.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #195 of 271
Bahrain troops 'fire on crowds'
Quote:
Bahraini security forces have opened fire on anti-government protesters, witnesses and opposition activists say.
The protesters were fired on after they had streamed into the centre of the capital Manama from the funerals of protesters killed in a security crackdown earlier this week.
Witnesses said the army fired live rounds and tear gas, and officials said at least 120 people had been hurt....

Bahrain troops 'fire on crowds'-Updates

Libya: Benghazi clashes deadly - witnesses
Quote:
There have been renewed clashes between protesters and police in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, witnesses say.
They say three people were killed in the city's el-Kish area and at least a dozen others elsewhere. The claims cannot be independently verified.
Benghazi has been the scene of protests in recent days, with reports that at least 15 people were killed in clashes with security forces on Thursday.
Reports are also coming about clashes in the neighbouring city of Al-Bayda.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #196 of 271
Thread Starter 

No-one's listening, no-one's there.....

In the words of the immortal Stephen Morrissey:

Quote:
A world war
Was announced
Days ago
But they didn't know
The lazy sunbathers
The lazy sunbathers

The sun burns through
To the planet's core
And it isn't enough
They want more

Nothing
Appears
To be
Between the ears of
The lazy sunbathers
Too jaded
To question stagnation
The sun burns through
To the planet's core
And it isn't enough
They want more

Religions fall
Children shelled
"...Children shelled ? That's all
Very well, but would you
Please keep the noise
Down low ?
Because you're waking
The lazy sunbathers ..."
Oh, the lazy sunbathers
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #197 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No-one's listening, no-one's there.....

In the words of the immortal Stephen Morrissey:

What kind of responses are you hoping for here? Cheering? Booing?

People are reading and watching, and as for myself, I am waiting to see what goes on. Posting here about it will not change what happens and since that is the case I find myself posting less and less.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #198 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

What kind of responses are you hoping for here? Cheering? Booing?

I gave up hoping for any responses whatsoever but only quite recently.

I hope I have shown over years a willingness to debate but of late my only purpose really was to consistently invite others to join me. Not in agreeing...not in some form of partisanship of conversion.....merely in debate.

That is in an exchange of opinions by means of a celebration of what makes us human: our differences and ability to transcend them if even for a little while.

But alas, 'twas not to be....

Sadly, no-one seems capable or willing so I will fade away like Snow upon the Desert's dusty Face -which lighting a little Hour or two is eventually and inevitably ....... gone.

Meanwhile, let me burn myself out in my own fashion....we should all choose the manner of our going.

Quote:
I find myself posting less and less.

Me too.....I shall join you in that good night where communication is no longer possible....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #199 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

...

No.

Why "no"? Mubarak resigned after the military, feeling the pressure of the demonstrations, forced him to and now the military is in charge. That is a military coup. The only question is if the miltary will listen to the wishes of the demonstrators and prepare a transition to a real democratic society or not, we will see what happens within this year and the next.

Currently they have ordered some expertpanel to draw up a new constitution within 10 days, that is way too little time for such a huge project, that's why I'm suspicious.

In Bahrein and Lybia demonstrators get killed by police and army, it gets really ugly there.
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #200 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Why "no"? Mubarak resigned after the military, feeling the pressure of the demonstrations, forced him to and now the military is in charge. That is a military coup. The only question is if the miltary will listen to the wishes of the demonstrators and prepare a transition to a real democratic society or not, we will see what happens within this year and the next.

Currently they have ordered some expertpanel to draw up a new constitution within 10 days, that is way too little time for such a huge project, that's why I'm suspicious.

In Bahrein and Lybia demonstrators get killed by police and army, it gets really ugly there.

The military could have staged a coup any time.

Last time I checked the protesters in the square all those weeks were not military.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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