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Official Revolution Watch Thread - Page 6

post #201 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The military could have staged a coup any time.

Last time I checked the protesters in the square all those weeks were not military.

I'm not talking about the protesters, of course they are not from the military, they are the ones building up pressure for change. The other side building up pressure is the US, that pays a fourth of Egypt's military budget.

The reason why the military didn't stage the coup previously was because Mubarak was one of them, their leader... so it needed considerable pressure to let him fall.

And obviously it took 18 days of street-pressure combined with international media-coverage and eventually (previously reluctant) US-pressure to convince the military to act and then the coup happened overnight, eventhough Mubarak repeatedly told everyone to stay on until September.

Like the book up there writes, a military coup is the easiest and fastest way to get rid of an unwanted dictator, but the risk is now like the book describes that a new clique comes in and takes over control, while offering some democratic concessions to cool down the situation that could be revoked later on.
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post #202 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

I'm not talking about the protesters, of course they are not from the military, they are the ones building up pressure for change. The other side building up pressure is the US, that pays a fourth of Egypt's military budget.

The reason why the military didn't stage the coup previously was because Mubarak was one of them, their leader... so it needed considerable pressure to let him fall.

And obviously it took 18 days of street-pressure combined with international media-coverage and eventually (previously reluctant) US-pressure to convince the military to act and then the coup happened overnight, eventhough Mubarak repeatedly told everyone to stay on until September.

Like the book up there writes, a military coup is the easiest and fastest way to get rid of an unwanted dictator, but the risk is now like the book describes that a new clique comes in and takes over control, while offering some democratic concessions to cool down the situation that could be revoked later on.

If the protestors had not protested there would have been no change to the status quo.

I am suspicious of this book - who knows where it is from or who really wrote it?

What I do know re the Middle East is that there is a form of Islam which is not that of the radical, not that of the ruler or the dictator but that is a religion of the people..... and as such it seeks justice and equality in a way that these other 'Islams' may not do.

I trust the religion of the people - it is not impossible that the military have caught it - I believe so - but if not then the people will continue.

This is the real thing the US fears - an alternate unifying system. It is a major threat.

In fact the US right now are like the Meccans at the time of the Prophet - seemingly religious and pious but fat on commerce, business and corruption.

A simple faith that calls to return to the basic HUMAN principles like Muhammad did was and is a major threat.

So you are right - they will oppose it but they will fail like the Meccans (imo).

You and I are probably in agreement I think - the question is really whether the army is for the people or against. It doesn't matter much what the US and Israel do...everyone knows what they WILL do because they HAVE to....they are not really free...never have been.

Freedom means freedom to make radical choices regardless of public or world opinion....they can never do that.

But the Middle East can.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #203 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

doesn't look like there is anything spiritual going on in Tunisia today, unless you count guns and death a spiritual experience. Seems like a revolution can only happen with death and pain, as they always have.

how much do you want this revolution? Will it be woth it?

Doesnt look like anything spiritual is going on in Libya at the moment - potentially thousands dead.

Lets hope - for all the 'spiritualist' armchair generals stirring up, and goading on trouble in the world - lets hope the families of all the thousands who will die, think that its worth it. It prolly wasnt worth it if youre the one with the bullet in the head.

Of course, it doesn't really matter when youre sat in your comfy armchair, in your sunny med country, living off daddies money, as long as your idealogy prevails.
post #204 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

If the protestors had not protested there would have been no change to the status quo.

Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I am suspicious of this book - who knows where it is from or who really wrote it?

Does it matter? Even if it were from the CIA or Mossad, who cares? Ideas and reasoning can have inherent importance and meaning no matter the source. You can look at the ideas and content and discuss if they are sound or nonesense.

The central idea of that book is that dictatorships work only as long as the majority of a population is cooperating and in consent.

I think that idea is a very good one. So the book goes on to find ways how to get the population to withdraw their consent and cooperation and resist non-violently. It argues against violence because the dictatorship can outmatch any violence with excessive use of force and therefore punish the population severely.

The other idea is to use longterm-planning and -strategy in order to have success and to develop organizations and institutions in order to become independent of the dictatorship's ones...

It's obvious that I like the book. Here's a bbc-article about it and its author Gene Sharp:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12522848



Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

What I do know re the Middle East is that there is a form of Islam which is not that of the radical, not that of the ruler or the dictator but that is a religion of the people..... and as such it seeks justice and equality in a way that these other 'Islams' may not do.

I trust the religion of the people - it is not impossible that the military have caught it - I believe so - but if not then the people will continue.

This is the real thing the US fears - an alternate unifying system. It is a major threat.

In fact the US right now are like the Meccans at the time of the Prophet - seemingly religious and pious but fat on commerce, business and corruption.

A simple faith that calls to return to the basic HUMAN principles like Muhammad did was and is a major threat.

So you are right - they will oppose it but they will fail like the Meccans (imo).

I don't think religion has much to do with these uprisings against the dictatorships, the demands made by the demonstrators are very secular: More democratic participation, better opportunities for the young, less corruption... The main-idea seems to be that the dictatorships are not acting in the best interest of the people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You and I are probably in agreement I think - the question is really whether the army is for the people or against. It doesn't matter much what the US and Israel do...everyone knows what they WILL do because they HAVE to....they are not really free...never have been.

Freedom means freedom to make radical choices regardless of public or world opinion....they can never do that.

But the Middle East can.

We will have to wait and see.

By the way Lybia seems to be the next to crack. Gaddafi and co seem to be pretty desperate and using massive force.
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post #205 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

By the way Lybia seems to be the next to crack. Gaddafi and co seem to be pretty desperate and using massive force.

Yes, is major news. Heard Jordan, Syria and Morocco too.

For some reason there is an embargo on discussing it here - maybe it because it's in the BARBARIK MUZZLIM WURLD and that's just what they do there.

Best not to mention it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #206 of 271
It will be interesting to see how much history is made in 2011. 20 years from now it may all be a blip or it might rank with the berlin wall coming down or the end of apartheid.
post #207 of 271
Lybia seems to get into a long civil-war, Gaddafi has still enough support within the population and miltary and no qualms to go that route in order to secure his hold on power.
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post #208 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Lybia seems to get into a long civil-war, Gaddafi has still enough support within the population and miltary and no qualms to go that route in order to secure his hold on power.

We'll see.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #209 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Lybia seems to get into a long civil-war, Gaddafi has still enough support within the population and miltary and no qualms to go that route in order to secure his hold on power.

Yea, we'll see. All the Libyans outside of Lybia seems to have dropped him fast, like at the UN and other embassies.
post #210 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Lybia seems to get into a long civil-war, Gaddafi has still enough support within the population and miltary and no qualms to go that route in order to secure his hold on power.

From where I am standing Gaddafi is not long for his position unless he uses brute force to keep it. Which is even odds in and of itself.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #211 of 271
Cooper Anderson isn't there to tell us what's going on, with his designer jeans, but reports are that it's carnage on the streets. It's a full on battle raging now.
post #212 of 271
News about Libya.

The Security Council is voting for War Crimes proceedings.
Quote:
The United Nations Security Council voted unanimously on Saturday night to impose sanctions on Libyas leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, and his inner circle of advisers, and called for an international war crimes investigation into widespread and systemic attacks against Libyan citizens who have protested against his government over the last two weeks.

President Obama is calling for Gadaffi to step down:
Quote:
A White House account of the telephone call Saturday between Mr. Obama and Chancellor Merkel of Germany said that the two leaders reviewed options for dealing with the situation in Libya, and that the president told Mrs. Merkel that when a leaders only means of staying in power is to use mass violence against his own people, he has lost the legitimacy to rule and needs to do what is right for his country by leaving now.

I believe that he should step down but in thinking through the statement it seemed a little odd to me. I wonder if Obama would believe that if the roles were reversed and the US were having the revolution? I am willing to bet that no US politician would agree in that circumstance. Or any other nations leaders for that matter.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #213 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

I'm not talking about the protesters, of course they are not from the military, they are the ones building up pressure for change. The other side building up pressure is the US, that pays a fourth of Egypt's military budget.

The reason why the military didn't stage the coup previously was because Mubarak was one of them, their leader... so it needed considerable pressure to let him fall.

And obviously it took 18 days of street-pressure combined with international media-coverage and eventually (previously reluctant) US-pressure to convince the military to act and then the coup happened overnight, eventhough Mubarak repeatedly told everyone to stay on until September.

Like the book up there writes, a military coup is the easiest and fastest way to get rid of an unwanted dictator, but the risk is now like the book describes that a new clique comes in and takes over control, while offering some democratic concessions to cool down the situation that could be revoked later on.

If you believe a military coup will get rid of a leader why is Ghadaffi still in power.The military went over to the side of the people.
post #214 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yea, we'll see. All the Libyans outside of Lybia seems to have dropped him fast, like at the UN and other embassies.

Ghadaffi will wind up like Hitler committing suicide when everyone deserts him and he is losing power rapidly.
post #215 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Ghadaffi will wind up like Hitler committing suicide when everyone deserts him and he is losing power rapidly.

Or maybe someone close will shoot him first. Then his son - who will probably have authorized it - will make a bid for power.

I can see the UK going into Libya on this one if it goes on long enough to go through the usual UN charade.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #216 of 271
The british and german airforce were landing in Lybia and flying out its citizens without asking for permission. What do you think about that?
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post #217 of 271
Who do you ask permission from? Gaddafi?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #218 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

The british and german airforce were landing in Lybia and flying out its citizens without asking for permission. What do you think about that?

I think it is probably the best thing they can do for their citizens. So long as that is all they are doing, I don't know who would reasonably have an issue with that. Hope they don't get shot down doing it. That could cause a war with an outside nation as well.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #219 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Who do you ask permission from? Gaddafi?

The government with which Europe made deals all this time, Gaddafi's regime, until another government takes over. The fact that Gaddafi's regime is in crisis, and will probably be toppled, doesn't give outside forces the right to enter Lybia's territory without permission nor a UN-SC-decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I think it is probably the best thing they can do for their citizens. So long as that is all they are doing, I don't know who would reasonably have an issue with that. Hope they don't get shot down doing it. That could cause a war with an outside nation as well.

Of course it's the best for their citizens, but is it legal?
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post #220 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

The government with which Europe made deals all this time, Gaddafi's regime, until another government takes over. The fact that Gaddafi's regime is in crisis, and will probably be toppled, doesn't give outside forces the right to enter Lybia's territory without permission nor a UN-SC-decision.

But Gaddafi's regime isn't in control of major parts of the country.
Who's to say that he has the power to accept/deny flights where the Brits and Germans want to land?
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #221 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

But Gaddafi's regime isn't in control of major parts of the country.
Who's to say that he has the power to accept/deny flights where the Brits and Germans want to land?

That's a good argument, but is it legal for foreign forces to enter another country in cases where the central government hasn't control over all of its territory?
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post #222 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

The government with which Europe made deals all this time, Gaddafi's regime, until another government takes over. The fact that Gaddafi's regime is in crisis, and will probably be toppled, doesn't give outside forces the right to enter Lybia's territory without permission nor a UN-SC-decision.



Of course it's the best for their citizens, but is it legal?

I cannot say if it was legal, but I will say that I respect the countries for trying to do what is right for their citizens so long as that was as far as it went. If they took advantage to also perform some other military task then there are other issues as well, especially if there is no formal declaration of war that has gone on between the countries. I see it as a humanitarian effort until shown it was otherwise.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #223 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I cannot say if it was legal, but I will say that I respect the countries for trying to do what is right for their citizens so long as that was as far as it went. If they took advantage to also perform some other military task then there are other issues as well, especially if there is no formal declaration of war that has gone on between the countries. I see it as a humanitarian effort until shown it was otherwise.

There are never formal declarations of war these days.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #224 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

There are never formal declarations of war these days.

Not true. They still happen, just not every time. The Iraq war was a formal declaration for example.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #225 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Not true. They still happen, just not every time. The Iraq war was a formal declaration for example.

The US has declared war formally only 5 times:
  1. War of 1812
  2. Mexican-American War
  3. Spanish-American War
  4. WW1
  5. WW2

On all other occassions....

Quote:
....the United States has engaged in extended military combat that were authorized by Congress, but short of a formal declaration of war.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #226 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

The british and german airforce were landing in Lybia and flying out its citizens without asking for permission. What do you think about that?

I think they care about their citizens just like China did when they had a boat taking away their people from Libya also.Screw Gadaffi permission for what to ask a paranoid and incoherent leader.That is a joke !
post #227 of 271
Thread Starter 
This is one occasion where - unlike the rhetoric and lies around Saddam and Ahmedinejad - the West needs to get in there and sort things out before it is a bloodbath.

I think they will but I also think that one word is uppermost in their minds and that word is OIL.

Hearing today that patients are being executed in hospital, ambulances targeted with heavy artillery.

Enough. Get a taskforce in there quick - Germans, Danes whoever. Don't trust the US/UK but this must be avoided turning into Iraq.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #228 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This is one occasion where - unlike the rhetoric and lies around Saddam and Ahmedinejad - the West needs to get in there and sort things out before it is a bloodbath.

I think they will but I also think that one word is uppermost in their minds and that word is OIL.

Hearing today that patients are being executed in hospital, ambulances targeted with heavy artillery.

Enough. Get a taskforce in there quick - Germans, Danes whoever. Don't trust the US/UK but this must be avoided turning into Iraq.

Why must the Western World intervene? They've been getting blamed for a thousand years for all that is wrong in the world already. If you break it you buy it. They need to learn to give up shopping.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #229 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Why must the Western World intervene? They've been getting blamed for a thousand years for all that is wrong in the world already. If you break it you buy it. They need to learn to give up shopping.

Right...forgot that...yeah bastards.... no intervening hell yeah!!

Except if it's Ahemedinejad or Saddam!

Innocent people doing nothing but existing = kill the bastards

Innocent people getting massacred by dictators = leave 'em rot.


Got that....

I thought you'd be up for it Trumpy though...you do know this Gaddaffi is a MUZZLIm right? ANd I've heard some of the populace are too....Maybe a little carpet bombing? Just a teeny bit might be ok no?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #230 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Right...forgot that...yeah bastards.... no intervening hell yeah!!

Except if it's Ahemedinejad or Saddam!

Innocent people doing nothing but existing = kill the bastards

Innocent people getting massacred by dictators = leave 'em rot.


Got that....

I thought you'd be up for it Trumpy though...you do know this Gaddaffi is a MUZZLIm right? ANd I've heard some of the populace are too....Maybe a little carpet bombing? Just a teeny bit might be ok no?

Are you saying those two interventions now were good ones and fully justified?

You declare that someone who isn't the U.S. or U.K. needs to come take a shot at this because those two screw it up when they show up. The others of course don't show up because, and this is the big lesson we need to learn, showing up is part of screwing it up.

If innocent people don't want to be massacred by dictators, then they need to rise up against that dictator. If a few eggs get broken to make breakfast, well that has been true regardless of the origins including U.S. and U.K.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #231 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

If innocent people don't want to be massacred by dictators, then they need to rise up against that dictator.

Err...they are doing - that's why they're being massacred.

This is the famous 'winger looking-glass' logic isn't it? Whenever I feel I've got the hang of it I get Trumped by the master...still so much to learn on the path to fluency ho-hum.

I'll try some of the basic exercises though:

Freedom = rise up against the dictator

We will support you = we will leave you to me massacred like the Marsh Arabs

Don't rise up = we will decide your dictator needs assassinating for you and carpet-bomb you into oblivion as an add on bonus to sweeten the deal so the dictator doesn't have to.

How am I doing so far?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #232 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Err...they are doing - that's why they're being massacred.

When has this not happened? When have the working classes gone up against the ruling class and not had some blood spilt?

Why is the west obligated to come and spill some blood to to prevent the norm? Do you believe them incapable without western help? Why is it that every other region of the world gets ahead and gets the rights necessary by people rising up and if necessary taking the hits and spilling their blood but folks like you infantilize certain areas of the world and believe the west needs to take those steps and absorb those blows on behalf of them.

It's pure racism bred of a pure superiority complex. It is the same thing that declares if we don't FIX every region of the world it will faulter because they could never do it on their own. That is a contemptable thought.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #233 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

When has this not happened? When have the working classes gone up against the ruling class and not had some blood spilt?

1968 The Prague Spring
1974 The Carnation Revolution in Portugal.
1979 - The Iranian Revolution in Iran.
1986 The People Power (Yellow) Revolution in the Philippines
19801989 The Solidarity movement
19871989 The Singing Revolution a cycle of singing mass demonstrations, followed by a living chain across the Baltic states (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia), known as the Baltic Way.
1989 - fall of the Berlin Wall
1989 The Velvet Revolution Czechoslovakia
1989 The bloodless revolution in Bulgaria
1990 The Golaniad protest in Romania
2000 The Bulldozer Revolution, which led to the overthrow of Slobodan Miloević.
2003 The Rose Revolution in Georgia & overthrow of Shevardnadze 2004 The Orange Revolution in Ukraine,
2005 - The Cedar Revolution in Lebanon

Quote:
Why is the west obligated to come and spill some blood to to prevent the norm?

If it is the norm it is because the West routinely arms the killers.

There's a clue there.

Quote:
Do you believe them incapable without western help?

Yes....because of centuries of the West keeping them down.

It's like saying "do you think that the prisoner can escape from the highest security prison in the world without the jailer's help?"

Quote:
Why is it that every other region of the world gets ahead and gets the rights necessary by people rising up and if necessary taking the hits and spilling their blood but folks like your infantilize certain areas of the world and believe the west needs to take those steps and absorb those blows on behalf of them.

Ooh ooh....I know this one....wait..I know it....IT'S THE MUZZLIMS!!!!!

Quote:
It's pure racism bred of a pure superiority complex. It is the same thing that declares if we don't FIX every region of the world it will faulter because they could never do it on their own. That is a contemptable thought.

Falter...it's 'falter'.

How about stop fucking up every region of the world? That could work too....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #234 of 271
You cannot have it both ways. You keep saying the west needs to stay out of it for pages and now all of a sudden they need to step in. Why the change now? Now that people are dying suddenly the west has to stop the madness?

I am trying to understand where the line is drawn here. If people are rising up the west should stay out of it until... (fill in the blank)

Please avoid placing all blame on the west and then pretending that them stepping in again is going to somehow fix this. If the west is to blame perhaps they should not step in, or perhaps they are not actually to blame and that is why you want them to step in? I am not opposed to helping if it is genuinely needed and asked for, I am just trying to understand your position.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #235 of 271
Yemen is going next. Local dictator blames (like segovius) the Americans and Jews (ooops I mean Israelis) for his citizens' discontent.
post #236 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You cannot have it both ways. You keep saying the west needs to stay out of it for pages and now all of a sudden they need to step in. Why the change now? Now that people are dying suddenly the west has to stop the madness?

I am trying to understand where the line is drawn here. If people are rising up the west should stay out of it until... (fill in the blank)

Please avoid placing all blame on the west and then pretending that them stepping in again is going to somehow fix this. If the west is to blame perhaps they should not step in, or perhaps they are not actually to blame and that is why you want them to step in? I am not opposed to helping if it is genuinely needed and asked for, I am just trying to understand your position.

Ok...my position is this: by West in this context I mean US/UK axis.

These two have between them carved up the Middle East, generally oppressed Muslims and Islam on a matter of principle and done everything they can to sell weapons to all and sundry in the region with no morality whatsoever.

They've have also blindly supported Israel on every possible occasion even when she committed crimes or outrages (yes, it does happen) while pressing for punishments for equivalent acts by all other entities in the region (except Saudi - possibly the worst human-rights abuser on the planet).

All this has led to conflict and chaos.

Which in return has been seen by the US/UK as an opportunity for profit via oil grabs and weapons sales.

So, those are the reasons why the US/UK cannot be trusted. Especially when there are Muslims are oil in the mix.

BUT the West also has many good aspects and is the most advanced area on the planet technologically and arguably in other less material senses too.

So given that, how moral is it to sit back and watch people get slaughtered? If the US/UK cannot be trusted then why can't the UN go in? That's what it's for...

Why are the options only US/UK or sit back and watch?

My ideal scenario would be:

1) People rise up and win on their own.

BUT if it goes:

1) People rise up

2) People get massacred

3) Dictator stays in power after the slaughter

Then this is unacceptable.

What's so difficult to understand about my position? I would never have called for intervention if the people had not risen up. Never called for it if they had risen up and not been slaughtered like in Egypt and elsewhere of late.

You never heard me call for it in Egypt, Tunisia etc....

The thing is I actually CARE about the people, it's not just some game. Maybe that's what's difficult to grasp for some people here...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #237 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok...my position is this: by West in this context I mean US/UK axis.

These two have between them carved up the Middle East, generally oppressed Muslims and Islam on a matter of principle and done everything they can to sell weapons to all and sundry in the region with no morality whatsoever.

They've have also blindly supported Israel on every possible occasion even when she committed crimes or outrages (yes, it does happen) while pressing for punishments for equivalent acts by all other entities in the region (except Saudi - possibly the worst human-rights abuser on the planet).

All this has led to conflict and chaos.

Which in return has been seen by the US/UK as an opportunity for profit via oil grabs and weapons sales.

So, those are the reasons why the US/UK cannot be trusted. Especially when there are Muslims are oil in the mix.

BUT the West also has many good aspects and is the most advanced area on the planet technologically and arguably in other less material senses too.

So given that, how moral is it to sit back and watch people get slaughtered? If the US/UK cannot be trusted then why can't the UN go in? That's what it's for...

Why are the options only US/UK or sit back and watch?

My ideal scenario would be:

1) People rise up and win on their own.

BUT if it goes:

1) People rise up

2) People get massacred

3) Dictator stays in power after the slaughter

Then this is unacceptable.

What's so difficult to understand about my position? I would never have called for intervention if the people had not risen up. Never called for it if they had risen up and not been slaughtered like in Egypt and elsewhere of late.

You never heard me call for it in Egypt, Tunisia etc....

The thing is I actually CARE about the people, it's not just some game. Maybe that's what's difficult to grasp for some people here...

Maybe if you were consistent in your labeling we would not run into these issues. You cannot label the West as one thing in one post and then without any clue change it in the next post and expect everyone to simply come along for the ride with full understanding. I really try to keep my conversations with you completely understood, otherwise they have a tendency to go off the rails quickly. You make assumptions about what is understood, which may or may not be valid, but from this side of the conversation I feel very comfortable saying, they are not. Hence the need to clarify whenever there is a position that looks to be off from what you normally claim.

Here's a request, grant me that same respect when I ask the questions or make a stand that you think may be off from what I post.

So to be sure I understand, "The West" may mean US/UK, which is synonymous with evil or at the very least immoral, unless otherwise specified. Then it is a thing to be admired technologically and otherwise.

Someone from the "good West", that admirable part of the West that has morals, should step in and help overthrow an established Government, or at the very least protect the people who are being massacred by said government and not worry about the possible war that may cause by doing so?

Trumptman went a bit too far in his snark for his post, but he did make some valid if crass points. There is a lot more to consider when another nation inserts their military into another nation. That action, by itself, has the potential to spark a war. You might save the lives of those protesters only to lose many more for what might have been intended to be a humanitarian effort.

I believe you that you care about those people. I also believe you that you are angry about what is happening to them. I just want to ask you, if the act of saving them causes a larger war, would it still be worth it?

Is the cost of possibly thousands more dying made ok by those saved up front? Do you see a way that those forces can go in and not end up causing a war? Or do you believe that a war will not occur when foreign troops violate their borders?

And lastly, what of the military forces that have defected from Gadaffi? Should they not also protect those protesters, their own countrymen? Or have the defections been overstated and they are not truly doing so? There are a lot of questions here, and perhaps I am not hearing all that I should.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #238 of 271
This story is very US centric, but I think it could apply to any Western Nation:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_mideast
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #239 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Maybe if you were consistent in your labeling we would not run into these issues. You cannot label the West as one thing in one post and then without any clue change it in the next post and expect everyone to simply come along for the ride with full understanding.

Ok...I totally get that. It's kind of that I am often not really expecting a debate or that anyone is going to go deep into it so I don't bother.

Quote:
Here's a request, grant me that same respect when I ask the questions or make a stand that you think may be off from what I post.

Deal. I will try to be explicit and to not indulge my tendency to sweeping statements.

Quote:
So to be sure I understand, "The West" may mean US/UK, which is synonymous with evil or at the very least immoral, unless otherwise specified. Then it is a thing to be admired technologically and otherwise.

Yes, I actually think that the position of being the leader in the world in any epoch entails certain responsibilities..... because you don't get to that position without a deep morality as well as the bad things.

This is just my own opinion obviously but I feel that one can't really be at the head of civilization without being civilized.

Of course a country may not always live up to that and may often fall short...but they should try to uphold a morality.

Quote:
Is the cost of possibly thousands more dying made ok by those saved up front? Do you see a way that those forces can go in and not end up causing a war? Or do you believe that a war will not occur when foreign troops violate their borders?

I don't know the answer to this. It's difficult to predict isn't it?

Quote:
And lastly, what of the military forces that have defected from Gadaffi? Should they not also protect those protesters, their own countrymen? Or have the defections been overstated and they are not truly doing so? There are a lot of questions here, and perhaps I am not hearing all that I should.

I think the problem is that the defectors have gone elsewhere - Malta or Tunisia. A lot of people are leaving because of the threat of death.

In Egypt it was different - the Egyptians were committed to stay and work for the country. It's different in different places...maybe the Libyans bit off more than they can chew but they are in trouble now whatever.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #240 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

This story is very US centric, but I think it could apply to any Western Nation:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_mideast

This article outlines one of the reasons why I thought the US should not do it. US presence would inflame the situation and for sure would give the Islamists some form of leverage too.

Look, there is a massive problem in the ME with lack or rights, liberty etc.

People now want to change it. They should be helped.

BUT - the problem is very deep. It's not just a matter of getting rid of rulers or even sending in troops. What is really needed is for a long-term program to raise the region to the level of the West economically and in terms of some form of Societal cohesion.

It does not have to be 'Western' - look at Dubai or UAE.

If the wider region can be raised to this level then everyone in the West will benefit too. Immensely. It will solve problems with extremism as well.

A long-term plan is needed.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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