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Free Will or Pre Ordained (Christians especially welcome) - Page 2

post #41 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>

I wouldn't know either. I thank you for your sympathies toward my nephew. But I believe that came from your heart. So maybe that'll score some points with the big guy up there...

Oh, and BR? <a href="http://shop.store.yahoo.com/jsbstash/dogmer.html" target="_blank">You can get "Buddy Christ" here...</a> </strong><hr></blockquote>

WOoo! Have you ordered from these guys before? I want to make sure they are legit before I pay any cash.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #42 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

Hello. Nice to meet you. My name is BR. It's not often I run across someone who is on the same page as me. I just thought I'd take a moment to formally introduce myself.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How do you do? My name is Hassan i Sabbah, sort of, and really, the pleasure's all mine!
post #43 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>WOoo! Have you ordered from these guys before? I want to make sure they are legit before I pay any cash.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's Kevin Smith's (director of Dogma) official web site. Don't think you'll have a problem there. I got the Jay and Silent Bob figures through them.

I promised never to get into these religious threads ever again. I have expressed my opinion many times and I am too tired to repeat them again. Here it is plain and simple.

God/Heaven = Earth...kinda simple ain't it? It's what gave us life and where we all will return to in the end.
Satan/Hell = Mankind if they don't stop getting off on these fairy tails, wake up and clean "God" and themselves up.
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post #44 of 70
Is it not possible that we are Pre Ordained to have Free Will, i.e. God has planned us to have free will, to do as we please, and we really have no choice in the matter?
post #45 of 70
Buddy Christ looks great, but I'd rather have one of <a href="http://www.bbspot.com/News/2002/03/ocjesus.html" target="_blank">these.</a>
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I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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post #46 of 70
Thread Starter 
[quote]I dont follow this. How do you NOT have free will right now? Just because God knows everything how does that even relate? There is no correlation where you are sketching one. You are referring to the age old 'predestination' argument. The simple explanation is God gave all me free will. That means you are free to go to heaven, or free to go to hell. Your choice. He is also all knowing. He knows where you will chose and as such, recorded your name in the appropriate book.<hr></blockquote>

ok, this is hard to explain over the 'net, but i'll try. first, i'll list my logical base that my argument is based on.

1. God created the universe.

2. God created everything in the Universe, including you, me and everything you've ever interacted with.

3. God knows everything. he knows what i'm thinking, he knows what you're thinking, he knows you better than you know yourself.

4. with the above knowledge, God knows you so well that he knows exactly what you will do in any given situation. how? he made you exactly. he knows everything about you. he has complete knowledge of your heart and soul, your concious and subconcious. you are his creation.

therefore, if you are faced with two "choices" God already knows what you are going to do. he's all knowing. his complete understanding of you means that there's really only one outcome to that situation. he knows what it is in advance.

also, he made you what you are. he made everyone you interact with, and everything you interact with. therefore, anything that has had any effect on your life in any way, shape or form was 100% his doing.

if he knows you perfectly, inside and out, and on top of that he knows everyone and everything equally as well, from the beginning of time, how do you have a choice?

along the same lines, in reference to the martyr comment i made earlier.

if God says you will die as a marytr in 5 years, do you have a choice as to whether or not you'll die for God?

no. because you will die. you cannot choose not to die for him at that point. it's already written down in his book.

that's how every little thing you do, all day long is. he already knows. he knew a billion years ago. everything you do was already planned in advance by him eons ago.

where's your free will?

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</p>
post #47 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by jesperas:
<strong>Buddy Christ looks great, but I'd rather have one of <a href="http://www.bbspot.com/News/2002/03/ocjesus.html" target="_blank">these.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

that is too fvcking funny.
post #48 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by jesperas:
<strong>Buddy Christ looks great, but I'd rather have one of <a href="http://www.bbspot.com/News/2002/03/ocjesus.html" target="_blank">these.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't forget our African Americans out there...



Get one of your own at the <a href="http://www.templeofblackjesus.com" target="_blank">Temple of the Black Jesus</a>! RIGHTON! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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post #49 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>
Get one of your own at the <a href="http://www.templeofblackjesus.com" target="_blank">Temple of the Black Jesus</a>! RIGHTON! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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post #50 of 70
Actually free will is like this:

God is the source of all joy and happiness. You have a choice, accept him (be happy forever), or reject him (endure pain and suffering through the lack of God).

God doesn't punish you, he doesn't want to send you to Hell (the place without the presence of God) it's just that because of your pride, not wanting to serve Him, you reject Him at the last judgement and get sent to a world without God.

Being ignorant or not understanding the religeon is not what we call a mortal sin, you can still end up in heaven with our Father if you accept him at your judgement.
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post #51 of 70
Prophecy plays a big role in modern Christianity as well as it's biblical origins. Prophecy implies pre-ordination of events in time, which in turn suggests that (according to prophetic Christian doctrine) that this is a non free-will Universe. But if we have no free will, then choices and decisions which appear to be free will actions are but an illusion, or impression of such. Then perhaps if events in time are pre-ordained, then humans are not truly responsible for their actions, for either good or evil intent. In that case, 'reward in heaven', or 'damnation in hell' appear redundant, if God recognizes that humanity is programmed and choiceless. If time runs linearly, from the 'past' through to the 'present' to the 'future' as normal human consciousness would suggest, then the concept of prophecy seems inconsistent with linear time flow. I find it hard to acknowledge pre-ordination; it would make all of our actions seem decidedly pointless, and judging by some of the horrendous episodes of recent human history, it would seem that a "good" or "merciful" God is not in control.
I place more credibility in the notion that we are in a freewill zone, and our actions (from benevolent to malicious) are registered by the universe, to be repaid in kind, in this life or the next, or the next, or the next.
Tomorrow, though, I may feel differently about it all! Who knows?
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #52 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
I place more credibility in the notion that we are in a freewill zone, and our actions (from benevolent to malicious) are registered by the universe, to be repaid in kind, in this life or the next, or the next, or the next.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Samantha Joanne Ollendale, you closet Hindu!

FWIW I believe this too. (Apart from the 'next life' bit.)

But back to thread. Noah's on holiday until next week and Fellowship Church is sticking to creation, so we can still have some fun for a bit!
post #53 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i-Sabbah:
<strong>

Samantha Joanne Ollendale, you closet Hindu!

FWIW I believe this too. (Apart from the 'next life' bit.)

But back to thread. Noah's on holiday until next week and Fellowship Church is sticking to creation, so we can still have some fun for a bit!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Too bad noah is on vacation. He still wouldn't tell me that I'm going to hell even though I know deep down that's what he believes. Maybe iChurch would be happy to oblige.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #54 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>

BR I do not want you to go to Hell...

I hope you don't.......
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I reject jesus. I always will. You know the result of it. Tell me where I'm headed.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #55 of 70
God made humans in his image. In other words, we are like him. He made us so we can choose our own path.

At your judgement, rejecting God is what you gets condemned. You don't have to be a zombie to end up in Heaven, you just have to accept God at your judgement. Through your pride you will reject him, and you will suffer an after life without God.

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: undotwa ]</p>
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post #56 of 70
Thread Starter 
i know this is a religious thread, and i shouldn't have set my expectations that high, but will any of those who believe in free will at least attempt to answer the questions i asked?

i understand they're hard, but the whole mindless, regurgitated reply thing gets tired after a short while.
post #57 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch
<strong>Always here for you,
Fellowship
</strong><hr></blockquote>

i don't mean to be mean or anything, because I know you meant well, but because BR doesn't know Jesus does not mean he is leading some kind of miserable life in which he is constantly searching for meaning and something to "fill the void." There are plenty of people who don't believe in God that do not feel an emptiness and longing inside, contrary to what is taught in Sunday school. Many non-christians are just as fine and just as happy as the most faithful of christians.
post #58 of 70
I'm not religious but I don't believe in free will, or at least not much very much free will.

There's another choice aside from just free will or pre-ordained destiny.

I think our behavior is determined by lots of other factors aside from conscious choices - genetics to a very large extent, physiology, past experiences and upbringing, even just simple social pressure.

Sure, it's possible to overcome those things and make your own genuine choices, but how often do people really do it?

I think people believe a much greater proportion of their behavior is free will than it really is. But it's largely an illusion.
post #59 of 70
I think that Nietzsche's response to the whole debate is the best approach:

free will: it is a Moot question: either we are free and act as we would, or we are not free and act as if we were, and thereby act as we would anyway.
The whole issue is moot.

There is no outside position from which we can know so it is meaningless. we are our fate every second . . . love your fate...amor fati


Free Will only seems to be a real issue because Christians need it as a loophole in order to explain how a perfect God could make a place like this, so beautifull and yet with so much horror and travesty, without either being imperfect because of the existence of evil or without meaning that evil too is perfection. "welll, you see, that's where our free will comes in...etc etc etc"
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--Franklin Miller.

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #60 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>I think that Nietzsche's response to the whole debate is the best approach:

free will: it is a Moot question: either we are free and act as we would, or we are not free and act as if we were, and thereby act as we would anyway.
The whole issue is moot.

There is no outside position from which we can know so it is meaningless. we are our fate every second . . . love your fate...amor fati


Free Will only seems to be a real issue because Christians need it as a loophole in order to explain how a perfect God could make a place like this, so beautifull and yet with so much horror and travesty, without either being imperfect because of the existence of evil or without meaning that evil too is perfection. "welll, you see, that's where our free will comes in...etc etc etc"</strong><hr></blockquote>

Without Free Will, there is no love. So our existance is meaningless. God created us so we can love him, and he can love us. Without Free Will, we will be mindless zombies following his command, and we will be forced to 'love' our Mother, our Brother, our Sister and our Neighbour. Where's the point in creating us again?
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
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post #61 of 70
Why can't there just be love. Why does it have to come with this fiction.

and is love allways really a choice? do you have a choice as to whether you love this person or not . . . is love made as an intellectual choice really love??

just some questions
. . . but like all the religious preachers on these boards I'm sure the substance and questions of these posts, and this one, will be thouroughly overlooked in favor of a quick cliche....
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #62 of 70
Thread Starter 
[quote]alcimedes... You are trying your hardest to provoke the Believers here I suppose with your comments.. Let me just say that you only reflect upon yourself and I would suggest that you come to know Jesus..

You have no idea how absolutely childish your remarks above are.. <hr></blockquote>

hmm, didn't mean to sound childish, but i've noticed a rather consistent trend to answer around what i've asked without answering anything.

reminds me of politicians when they get a tough question and just spin around the answer and move merrily along their way.

i'm not trying to provoke anyone, but i am trying to find a good answer to a question that troubles me. there seems to be a basic logical fallacy in the Christian faith if you believe in free will.

if you don't believe in free will, it raises much harder questions as to the justness and fairness of God.

i've noticed that people ignore the first question in hopes of avoiding the second qustions entirely.

so, for those that believe in free will, how do you work around the logical flaws (as i see them) in that belief?

-alcimedes
post #63 of 70
Thread Starter 
[qoute]Both exist... That will blow your mind if you think about it deeper..

But for me... Both... not one or the other...[/quote]

would you care to elaborate?

personally i think that kind of veiw is self-delusional and crippling. i thikn people don't want to accept the fact that they have no say in their lives and that their actions are predetermined, therefore they make up the concept of free will.

however, by its very definition free will is a slap in the face of God, it implies that God is not all powerful or all knowing, and severly restricts His majesty.

so yeah, if you could explain in a little more detail, that would be greatly appreciated.
post #64 of 70
[quote]The Holy Bible is the best source to study God's will for our lives.. But it is up to us what we do with our lives..<hr></blockquote>

What makes your "holy" book any more special than the thousands of others that exist?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #65 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

What makes your "holy" book any more special than the thousands of others that exist?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh, that's easy BR! It's because there are so many more Christians the others, so Christianity has GOT to be right.

No, errr wait a minute ...
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post #66 of 70
One thing I want to point, out is that many Christians, particularly protestant denominations, post Luther branches . . . including, Calvanism, and, I believe Lutheranism itself, and baptists and many other American fundamentalist forms of Christianity, believe in a doctrine which expressly runs counter to the very free-will that they say is necessary for their faith. And that is the belief in an {i]elect[/i] and a preatorite. Meaning that it is preordained by god if you will be saved, or you will be given the grace to be saved..... and only a hand full are predestined... the rest are preatorite and no matter how pious they will not get to the pearly gates. Apparently, the point is that you never know if you are preordained or not, but if you are you better have been acting worthy of it.

now what's up with that?!?!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #67 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>One thing I want to point, out is that many Christians, particularly protestant denominations, post Luther branches . . . including, Calvanism, and, I believe Lutheranism itself, and baptists and many other American fundamentalist forms of Christianity,</strong><hr></blockquote>

What you are talking about is strictly a Calvanist belief.
post #68 of 70
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i-Sabbah:
<strong>Quick, everyone, let's dis God.

Noah J's on holiday.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I missed you too.

Oh an BTW. I'm back.

Humans have free will. God does not make you do anything. We have the freedom to choose good or evil, and we have the freedom to accept or reject God. God is Omni-Everything (yes I know that is not a real term) and so he knows what you will choose, but he does not make you choose it. He offers you the choice, you make it yourself, and he knows wha you will do. He does not make you do it, he just knows what choice will be made.

Good to be back.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #69 of 70
Hi.
post #70 of 70
Welcome back Noah, how was your holiday?
proud resident of a failed state
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