Apple TV, iTunes downloads slowed by Google DNS - Page 2

When I first got the new AppleTV I could not stream any rented stuff because it would always tell me it would take like 2 hours or more. I would do my renting on the Mac or iPad to Airplay it to the TV. I thought I give this idea a try. I was using OpenDNS. Change to my ISP DNS and the process to rent a movie and watch took like 30 Seconds. I watch the whole movie (The Town) and I did not experience any delays or buffing at all like I did before the change.

Which is why I said when. It's perfectly possible for a group of privacy advocates to work collaboratively to create such a thing and host it in countries whose 'security' laws are more reasonable.

Actually there's no reason an encrypted, P2P search engine could not be developed with no backbone to subpoena.

EDIT: Looks like such a thing does exist and I think it will get my patronage. http://www.yauba.com

Appleinsider is one of the few Apple oriented website to offer, most of the time, quality content. That article does not qualify for that category.

It's like the AI linkbait pulled the Googlians out of the woodwork. This must constitute that 20% where you don't have to work?


An FAQ can say whatever they want it to say, whatever is expedient, whatever furthers their corporate goals. It's not as if this carries the legal weight of, for example, a sworn deposition by Eric Schmidt.

How is this any different from an FAQ that says, for instance, that they don't collect and/or index data about or from WiFi access points during their Street View sweeps?

Scary.

One of the reasons I am not a fan of Gmail or Google Groups.

One cannot just assume the agglomination (my new word, you first heard it here) of net services is a good thing.

This makes perfect sense, and is not a 'slam' at Google. Get your feathers down.
I've been having this problem since I got my AppleTV gen 2, and have been frustrated by 30 hour downloads.
I've been using Google DNS, and after reading this article, switched back to my default Comcast, and presto, I'm now downloading quickly enough to start viewing movies within 1-2 minutes.
Staggering difference.

The issue is not any particular failing with Google or OpenDNS (I wish I could stay with OpenDNS for its parental controls). The fact is the way Akamai works. It identifies the entry closest to the Akamai routers, and if you're giving it some Google DNS server far away from you (in routing terms), then you totally defeat (and actually worsen) the purpose of Akamai.
Advertise your real DNS location and the system works like a charm.

Stop fighting, Akamai confirmed they do use DNS lookup as a method to pick what Server you download from.

I asked on twitter when tuaw posted this news via zdnet.

http://twitter.com/#!/Akamai/status/16927585028014080

I'm guessing that ATV2 somehow has Akamai more baked in, because I agree that I still have my ATV1 running along side my ATV2 and it has been running fine with OpenDNS.

Correct!!! DNS is a lookup, sure that initial lookup could take a milisecond longer if your local ISP DNS is closer in terms of latency.....but it also could NOT have the info you need and it would have to forward the request or hit a root server. In either case once you have the IP of the media streaming server, DNS is out of the picture.

Appleinsider ONCE AGAIN showing their NUT JOB bias. Google is a major threat to Apple, therefore and enemy of AI???

Loones run this blog.

Dilger may work for Apple PR, but is 100% correct in this case. Not using your ISP DNS server can cause exactly the effect described, for exactly the reason described.


WHOOOSH! The sound of the article going right over your head.


It is too late. Once you've connected to the CDN, they can't reconnect you to a closer mirror in most cases. The DNS lookup is their chance to steer you the right way. In some cases, they can fine tune it within the routing tables, but the DNS lookup is a biggie.

Amen!

My ISP has an Akamai server farm in their building, and they say in order to benefit from it we must use their DNS. So I think it can matter what DNS you use. The DNS takes a name and sends an IP address back, and certain ISPs will change their DNS to send back IP addresses of computers they know are nearby.

Thanks!!! Most of the fast responders missed the ball! Some people still think the world ends at their doorstep!

It depends how well openDNS/googleDNS match the preference of Akmai...

That means for those whom dont get it:

- Use ISP DNS = works allways.
- Use openDNS/googleDNS = it works or it doesnt work, it dependson things.

But Akmai might make this work better but dont hold your breath...

Yes its true there are a lot of nutjobs that dont see the whole picture like you in this case. They allways assume that the do but that is seldom the case.

To mee it doesnt look like it would be impossible for akmai to optimise for all but its up to them... There are allways going to be things that screw up things like these eg. proxys and so on. To Akmai its important that 99,5% of customers are happy and the rest get screwd, not many people will fool around with dns servers anyhow...

Ask.com has a feature called AskEraser which if enabled, they claim will result in search data not being retained.

As for for not trusting the UK with data, that would be rather funny if you are US based. The NSA monitor everything, whether legally entitled to or not. Then there are the mandated GPS chips in cell phones supposedly for when emergency numbers are dialed: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...int_by_law.php

Yes, they're using DNS. Trouble is, they're using THEIRS rather than YOURS. In other words, whatever you are using is not going to change what they use or, to rephrase that, changing DNS is not going to assign you a different IP address (or location).


RT.

Or maybe I just don't have some ridiculous loyalty to a company that doesn't give two shakes more about you than other corporate entitity.

Sorry, the tin hat conspiracy theory crap about Google gets old. And so do the stupid attacks on anyone who has anything vaguely positive about anything not from Apple.

Love these threads.

This is very plausible, why......?

Because even though DNS server do just translate name to addresses (and reverse), what DNS's like OpenDNS and Google DNS do not do is house the records in an authoritive way.

So why does switching DNS from Google to a local provider based one work?

Because CDN's like Akamai switch authoritative responses for domain addresses based on DNS lookups of the whois record (which contains total physical address information) to local information caches. These records have way more accurate/consistent physical location information then an IP trace (which I believe is still used in the event an address cannot be found appropriately).

DNS flow diagram

Request:
User request -> DNS -> lookup for root domain on root servers -> authoritative domain server

Reply:
Authoritative domain server -> DNS -> user

This isnt how Akamai always routes, I believe they prefer client information directly when possible, but as browsers lock down and hardware devices are hardened, its very difficult sometimes. This also is only a single layer of how they try to route content locally.

and how does akamai know which DNS server you resolved from? the location is done via reverse IP lookup where they take your IP address. this is done on akamai's side via their DNS infrastructure

the reason people use google DNS is that it's always up and it's fast. ISP DNS servers are like bastard step children where they put them on the oldest hardware they have lying around at the time

DNS lookups and content routing are two different things

i'm not a DNS expert but unless Google is poisoning their results and sending you to the wrong servers i don't see how a DNS lookup is a slow down issue. it could be the way akamai has their server IP's assigned for load balancing and Google DNS is screwing it up

Google is not poisoning, Akamai is....

When the DNS resolver from google goes and looks for the root server, Akamai authoratative host reverses on the Google DNS server because client IP is not passed through, only the originating DNS request client IP is passed though. In this case google DNS acts as a proxy. Google and Cisco were looking at extending DNS requests to include client IP for CDN's as part of the original DNS request, not sure where they ever got with that.

That being said, the theoretical absolute optimal way (given a good IP lookup and a couple other factors) to get on the best CDN cache to you would be to set your computer to use Akamai DNS directly. This is offset by things like ISPs putting content caches inside their networks. One that comes to mind is Comcast. In that case they do return a comcast server which may not be geographically optimal to you but which may in fact return much greater throughput and/or reduce data charges.

See http://blogs.gartner.com/lydia_leong...sion-and-cdns/ They word it better then I do.

I work for a CDN (just the same as Akamai), and I'd like pass some knowledge along.

When an anycast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anycast [Every CDN depends on anycast]) based DNS system is used, you are load balanced to a nearby POP/node/cluster (whatever you want to call it.) The idea behind this is to route you to a very close (geographically that is) server that will be able to return the desired data to you as fast as possible. In making the connection as close as possible, you reduce the possibility of introducing unnecessary latency. Currently, the speed limit is the speed of light (based on use of photons in the fiber links). Until we find a way around this, bringing the server close to you is the next best option.

So, with anycast already mentioned, the next part of this is the load balancing. When you use something like 4.2.2.1 (and it's relatives), OpenDNS, or Google DNS, you are relying on a system that is making a best attempt at determining where you are. If it works as intended, nothing goes awry. If it there is a fault, then you may get routed to a server that is quite far from you (geographically, as well as latency-based.) This can occur if you use OpenDNS in London, UK, and you get routed to a server in New York, NY instead of somewhere in England. This can cause for a slow internet experience, which generally sucks.

If you use your ISP's DNS is that you can be much more certain that you are being routed to a set of nameservers that are close to you, and can generate a quicker response to your queries. The added bonus of using your ISP's DNS is that a CDN such as Akamai almost certainly has a POP (or cluster, etc) located inside of the ISPs network, and so when you get load balanced to the CDN (instead of the DNS), you are hitting servers that are not only close to you, but don't have to traverse the internet's main backbones. This means you get what you want very quickly.

When people use an anycast based DNS system, and complain of slow load times, they are almost certainly being routed to a POP that is either far away from them, or is just overloaded (or both.) I've run into this myself when attempting to retrieve updated Apps from the iTunes App Store when using 4.2.2.1. When I changed my router over to use my ISP's DNS (in this case, Road Runner), the files came in at the max speed my connection would allow.

If you use an anycast based DNS, and are encountering a less than great internet experience, I encourage you to switch to your local ISP DNS. Things should be much better as a result.

I hope this helps shed some light onto the situation.

Cheers.

going to have to check my router logs at home to see where my netflix data is coming from. i use my PS3 mostly to stream netflix and use Google DNS. too much trouble with time warner cable DNS. it takes netflix a minute or so to load on my PS3. will see if DNS makes a difference

netflix uses level 3 as their CDN

one time a friend of mine found a MacBook and i installed SL on it for him. i checked my router logs when i was doing the apple update and i think the data came from the midwest since apple uses akamai for the apple updates. and i've used google dns or open dns since it came out. i'm on the east coast

F*ck this headline, this story and Daniel Eran Dilger. Treat your readers with some damn respect. I've been reading appleinsider for several years - today I unsubscribe. see ya

http://code.google.com/p/namebench/

It is a google site, but seems to help a little in this thread.

And translations...


No, it's stored in your Google Profile, which is linked to your Google Account, along with everything else we know about you and will hand over to the government whenever it presents us with a National Security Letter.


No, not directly, it's much too valuable to us to give it to anyone else. We use it in all sorts of ways, though. And, of course, we'll give it to the Feds if they present us with a NSL.


No, not as such. We collect all of the information from all those sources and pool it in the Google Profile database. As such, we never share data between these services, it all goes into the central repository to be used as we see fit, or handed over to the Feds when requested.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned whether Akami uses allow-transfer {"none";}
in their master/cache only DNS or not.

If they do, then the original DNS query will always be forwarded to akami.com where the client IP would be used to geo locate them. The DNS server you have in you computer becomes somewhat irrelevant except for the forwarding latency. At least then you would let Akami decide which streaming server to use for your request.

It appears they do since when I dig them I get their authoritative DNS servers.

Anything to back your statements?

Any reason we shouldn't believe my translation?

Google has never been honest about what it does. They are a serial law breaker with no respect for intellectual property or privacy law. Even when they say they don't do something, it turns out they do, "inadvertently" of course.

Google, all evil, all the time.

Ah, yes, nothing to back it up except hate against a company. This or you are joking

So, do you really believe Google doesn't collect and maintain detailed information on individuals?

We know they do. What isn't known for certain, outside Google, is exactly what's in these profiles. Given Google's extensive track record of dishonesty and criminal behavior, no one should trust any denials they make on the subject, especially when they are worded in such a way as to make the denials technically and very narrowly true, yet meaningless. You can go ahead and believe them, but you'll be wrong.

So you're not joking, you truly believe that they always lie and they are evil.

Ok, do you have your tin cap?

Well, no, they don't always lie. When they said they were agreeing with Verizon to kill Net Neutrality, they were telling the truth. But, yes, they are evil.

End users reach Google DNS via anycast IP (8.8.x.x) . Specific Google Public DNS node which got lookup request either responds from it's cache, or queries authoritative servers. Queries are sent from non-anycast IP - see locations list here:

http://code.google.com/speed/public-...html#locations

Those IP ranges (same as others containing DNS nameservers) are mapped by CDNs to their own closest nodes. The granularity of such mapping would be likely be more precise when you use your own or your ISP DNS server (since so far Google operates Public DNS in only 16 locations, about half in US).

Oh, come on, this is so easy to test that it's not worth arguing about. Nobody is talking about how long the DNS request takes. We care about the IP address it returns, because that's who we end up downloading data from.

I live in California.




If you use your ISP's DNS server, you're going to connect to a server close to you and get a fast download. If you use Google's DNS server, you might either get lucky and get a server 3000 miles away in Massachusetts, or unlucky and get an Akamai server that's 8500 miles away in Malaysia. Think you might see a drop in performance when going across the ocean unnecessarily? As mentioned before, GoogleDNS will tend to return the same result to many more, making these servers even more overloaded than they might normally be.

Or it could be a big conspiracy. I mean, who knows, you know?

Since you bring it up, I think my downloads are slow because I have Comcast, and they're cock-blocking my AppleTV downloads. All other downloads work perfectly.

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