Mac OS X Lion and the next-gen MBP - hardware implications? - Page 2

You would have done well to have reread your previous posts. It is quite annoying when posters deny saying what they clearly said. From your OP to your most recent post, you have been persistent in your questions about Lion and its implications to future Mac hardware. This is hardly surprising as this is the Future Hardware area of the forum. If you were interested in current hardware, then most members assume that you would have posted your question in the Current Hardware area. Two points:

• MacOS X 10.7 will fully support all hardware configurations that it can be installed on. However, the new OS cannot enable features that the hardware does not support.
• MacOS X 10.7 will have no hardware implications. Apple's practice is to introduce major hardware revisions powered by special builds of a mature OS. It will follow sometime later with a new point release that incorporates support for the new hardware as well as for old hardware going back five years more or less. I can recall no instance where Apple introduced new hardware that was designed exclusively for a brand new OS--brand new hardware categories notwithstanding.

What this means is that if major hardware revisions to the Mac are coming, then they will come at least several months prior to the release of Lion.

Mac OS X needs a lot more to make it upgrade worthy. What they showed off so far looks so minor it could just as well be released through Software Update.

And when it comes to the implications of Lion on new hardware, I don't think we've seen really anything in Lion that has even remotely implied anything that we don't already know.

Here's what we know: The next generation MacBook Pro is going to use Intel's Sandy Bridge with the new Core i5 and Core i7 processors. And most likely ATI graphics from AMD.

Apart from that, will the MacBook Pro lose the optical drive? Maybe.

Will it have the same flash storage that the MacBook Air just started using? Maybe.

Will Apple switch the displays from 16:10 to 16:9 panels? Maybe.

Will Apple offer a 3D display? Well, that's a definite maybe.

Longer battery life? That's always possible.

USB 3? Steve says not so fast.

Lightpeak? Well I would hope for that sooner rather than later, but I think that's a generation or two off.

Again, Mac OS X Lion has thus far not shown that it's going to carry a larger footprint on hardware than Snow Leopard.

So as far as implications on hardware go, I'd say none.

This is the Future Hardware area of AppleInsider.com. Questions about current-generation hardware are properly asked in the Current Hardware area. That said, you should be reminded that are currently several trackpads. We have multi-touch trackpads on the MacBooks and MacBook Pros. We also have the Magic Trackpad which has a larger control area than the iPhone 4. From where I sit, Macintosh trackpads are much more capable control devices than the screens of iPhones and iPads. With the iOS devices, you have a 1:1 control area to screen area for access to virtually any pixel. With the Mac trackpad, the user can access virtually any pixel on an screen of effectively unlimited area.

In your most fearful and paranoid imagination, what are your concerns about what you cannot do with a current Mac and a future OS?

You have been asked several times, by multiple people, to reread your posts. The problem rests with you and no one else.

And we have repeatedly indicated that we can't say what will happen with a new release of Mac OS/X! My early 2008 MBP is a perfect example here. Initially the new features of Snow Leopard did not work well with the track pad. Some time later Apple came out with an update that gave us some extra functionality at the expense of being buggy as hell. Finally the last rev of Snow Leopard came and we got much of the new functionality, especially the inertial scrolling.

Your problem is basically this you would rather bitch and complain instead of reading what others have posted. Especially with respect to your confused and winding questions. You have repeatedly said you posted one thing at the beginning of this thread when nobody here read it that way.

There is nothing especially bad about that and frankly all of us have had issues with clarity form time to time. Admitting to the communications failure and going on is the smart thing to do.

Which means that they have something else coming to justify the cost of a paid update.

Yep. Which makes the original posters question almost impossible to respond to as we really know nothing.

The problem is nobody has the ability to answer it in a definitive manner. You don't seem to grasp that because the question has been answered several times already. There is a high probability that you will have no problems.

I have a significant issue with your bringing up iOS all the time. The features revealed so far are very trivial and would likely work on Macs far back in time at least on i86 hardware.

You really seemed to be confused here. MBP run Mac OS/X not iOS. There is no way for the track pads to be iOS compatible, none, zip nada. What we will be getting is some features that allow Macs to behave in some ways like parts of the iOS user interface.

I'm trying to work out a way to explain this better but in simplest terms iOS and Mac OS/X are only loosely related. Implementing a user interface feature from iOS does not make Mac OS/X iOS.

Yes a crap shoot and you are trying to get us to predict with 100% certainty how well the coming MBP will work with an OS that is months off. That is an issue of probabilities and I lean strongly to the idea that there will be no problem but there is no way to say with absolute certainty. But this has been said again and again in this thread.

Even if the initial release of Lion required special hardware there is nothing to keep Apple form doing what they did with the early 2008 MBP which is basically taking about a year to get the new features to work on the old 2008 MBP.

It is a two way street guy.

In any event if you want 100% confidence then wait for Lion to come out before buying a new MBP. Seriously; that is a solid course of action. By the way it is completely possible that Apple will hold off the laptops and go with iMac & Mini updates first. Everyone assumes that new laptops come at the beginning of the year but I don't think it is written in stone anymore than anything else.

Of course new laptops early this year are likely. Further I'm sensing a major overhaul as many pieces are coming together at the right time to allow Apple to do so. The problem is this, is all that tech ready for Jan. or Feb. release. If not we could get a minor bump with a major update mid year.

You may claim to be a Mac user since the 1980's, but your question and concerns sound like a recent switcher who is totally unfamiliar Apple, its philosophies, and its practices. Fear that Lion will obsolete currently-shipping MacBook Pros is completely and totally unfounded. It is difficult to believe that you started this thread out of fear that Apple will obsolete the entire installed-base of Macintosh computers next year or that Apple would introduce an new version of MacOS X that none of the installed-base can use.

And he's saying, "Of course they are, otherwise Apple would have waited for new hardware on which to demo the features."



Yeah, you did say that. He's saying it's nonsense to think that they'd demo it on hardware that wouldn't fully support it and that you have nothing to worry about with a current purchase, much less one of the next update.

Apple no longer seems to release hardware updates with lots of revolutionary new features in one go.
They use the evolutionary approach, tiny steps, spreading new features out over several generations rather than blowing them all at once.

I think you are safe buying the next generation as it will be incomplete by definition.
It will take several generations to have a complete 'Lion-proof' MBP.

For example:
The next generation might drop the internal superdrive for a larger battery and smaller footprint, might also get a higher-resolution iSight camera, perhaps even drop the HD for flash sticks (if there is enough flash capacity to support 512GB configurations).
But it is likely the generation after that that gets LightPeak, an improved speaker system and/or an ultra-high resolution screen (think pixel doubling for most graphics while text looks super sharp).
And only the generation after that will get a touch screen with fold-back hinge so users can finally choose between using the trackpad or touching the screen directly.


Even if Apple plans to release all these features for Lion, they will not release them all in one hardware update.
They will make sure to spread them out so people upgrade 3x instead of just once.

Aerosmith, I believe, had a song that sums this up fairly well. Not necessarily what you've said for the first one, but the last two, certainly.

The generation you've deemed to get a Retina display would come out in winter of this year, you know. It's insanely unlikely that Apple would be able to not only mass produce 13, 15, and 17 inch WQUXGA displays by that time, but also get the panel cost down to less than twice the price of the rest of the computer.

The order of events might not be completely accurate. It was just an example.
Point being that any list of hardware features ultimately supported/required by Lion will not be implemented in one update and not even two. The OP will have to wait 3 or more generations to have a complete set.

And true, the Mac with a Retina Display is as elusive as the Loch Ness monster ... and we might never see it happen. Yet there are rumors about an Apple-Toshiba LCD cooperation which might be for Mac LCDs too.
Yet I do wonder how much more expensive those ultra-high displays really are. People have suggested that the iPhone 4's Retina Display is only marginally more expensive than the previous lower res one.

No one knows when MacOS X 10.7 is coming out and every new version of Windows comes out behind schedule. Therefore talk about Windows 8 and MacOS X 10.7 coming out at the same time is just that--talk.

True, but I'd put my money on October.

My money is on Friday, August 26th

I'd like to speculate about this a bit...

Sometimes Apple pushes the hardware forward very quickly. If you go back to 2003 when they introduced the 17" and 12" powerbooks for the first time, there were an unprecedented amount of mobile hardware introductions at that event. Firewire 800, 54mb wireless, illuminated keyboards just to name a few (not to mention the invention of the more modern MBP form factor that served them for at least 5 years). The predictions were that none of this was gonna happen, it blindsided everyone. Steve Jobs said as much during the keynote, showing that the rumor sites thought it was going to be a boring Macworld.

I think we could be looking at a similar event very soon. We know Lightpeak and Sandy Bridge are possibilities for this refresh. They wouldn't have to wait for 10.7 to do Lightpeak, 10.6 with a driver will do. There are a number of other possibilities, higher resolution displays or maybe some kind of hardware feature that plays to the mac app store strengths (I don't know what that could be, but you do have to acknowledge the possibility). Obviously smaller hardware (HD, cpu/gpu) could mean an enclosure redesign, weight change, or longer battery life (if they managed to get us from 9 hours to 12, that would be incredible). If they did all of these things it might be on par with that 2003 Macworld. I don't think any of this is outside the realm of possibility.

I agree certain technologies are out. Apple is skipping over Bluray and USB 3 in favor of other things. Apple is invested in a digital download future, and they aren't going to do anything that might help Sony further establish a foothold. USB 3 is already outdated compared to Lightpeak, and Lightpeak is almost here.

I don't think Apple will offer 3D displays without also offering some kind of big picture solution, methods and ways of getting 3D media onto the Mac. Bluray is the way to do that today, and today 3D is fairly juvenile in its capabilities and quality. For all those reasons I don't see Apple getting on the 3D bandwagon, the quality and content are simply not there. At the same time, I expect a surprise... so we'll see. =)

Speculation is always nice!

This is always nice to hear from others because it is true. Apple has demonstrated in the past a complete willingness to totally over haul a product line. Due to the convergence of many technologies I can see Apple doing this again with the Macs.

OK here is where I have a big problem. USB in any form is not going away anytime soon. I would expect Apple to support USB 3 as soon as it is in a chipset used in one of its machines.

I doubt a fast move to 3D myself. Mainly because I expect Lion to introduce other new technologies. Well I hope it will.

Lightpeak can have a USB style connector, and in theory be backwards compatible with all of our USB devices. There could be an adaptor for FireWire or maybe even ethernet (although I'll admit the latter is unlikely). In theory you could make a Mac with 2-4 Lightpeak ports and all other ports are removed ( FireWire, USB, video, maybe even Ethernet) leaving only audio and PC card, and not lose anything in the bargain.

Are you kidding? Apple made a USB to modem dongle and sold it for $30.

They'll take away ALL of their ports, replace them with five LightPeak, and sell $30 dongles for everything. They're GOLDEN.

An all-out blitz on new hardware is always welcome! I remember the 2003 Macworld. I remember Steve saying something to the effect that I asked you to buckle up before, now I need you to put on your shoulder harness. Those were good times.

I think this thread is good because for some reason it's gotten quiet across all forums here lately. Perhaps they have closed up some rumor and leak sources at Apple! Anyhow, I have two concerns regarding 10.7 and purchasing an MBP. I may not buy this next rev. but probably the one after that. And by then I sure hope they will have:

1) Resolution independence. If they keep increasing screen resolution and dpi they need it!!! It's overdue by 10.7, to be kind. Unless of course they only want 20/20 customers (ie, cutting out a big chunk of customers).

2) TRIM support and better OS X settings to accommodate SSDs. I assume they'll start to really fall in price soon. I hope, anyway...I want one. But I've read about stuttering issues, sleep issues, etc. What a pain. And while drives have built-in garbage collection, it would be nice for OS X to automatically optimize itself for SSDs. What is strange is that even though it doesn't, Apple has been selling MBAs with SSDs for years. It'd be about time to get with the program by 10.7.

Also I hope 10.7 continues to build more Touch and gesture support in. And after reading about Inkwell half a decade ago I'd assumed handwriting recognition on the MBP trackpad was imminent. What happened? That'd be so neat. Or at the very least, letting us use it as a tablet to draw with, so we could for instance jot our signature, or manipulate graphics programs, e.g. Photoshop, without needing to plug in an external tablet. It would seem trivial and be a cool selling point. Of course a touch-screen monitor that swivels around and allows the MB/MBP to double as a tablet would be even cooler. When I saw some Dell or something doing that, I was like wow, how come Apple isn't doing that? I guess the market wasn't there for it yet. But I bet it would be now. It could be a third line of laptops perhaps, or an (initially costly, but then coming down) BTO option for MacBook Pros or something. I hope implementing touch like this doesn't take several more generations as hoBIT predicts. But perhaps it will, simply to get production costs down.

I remember seeing a video from an Apple WWDC four or so years ago where they wanted the developers to work on having their apps resolution independent by the Spring of 2008. Here we are in 2011 & yet still no widespread RI. I bought my parents a 17" MacBook Pro because mom wanted a big screen & the first thing she complained about was how dad thought everything was too small on the screen.

DHagan you may be aware of this but I'll throw it out there: setting up Zoom in Universal Access. I use it almost every hour or so to zoom onto a detail on a map or spreadsheet formula or something like that. I like just holding control and giving the trackpad a two-finger flick upward. This is seriously one of the biggest advantages over Windows for my use. Do your parents use this zooming on-the-fly feature?

Also I jacked up most text font sizes around the System with TinkerTool by a few points (just enough so it wouldn't look weird but is a bit bigger). But yes..with the steadily increasing dpi and thus shrinking GUI and text I'm really surprised Res. Indep. didn't make the cut in 10.6. Windows 7 "kind of" has a universal "zoom" but not really. It'd be nice to have a simple slider for the whole computer, kind of the like the Dock. And where it would "just work", like most browsers e.g. Safari now can Zoom in/out without changing any of the formatting. Here's hoping!! Also as to 3rd parties, Apple should encourage developers to get on board but for graphics they haven't vectorized or prepped they could just do an interpolation zoom like Safari does with images now.


As to other hardware/10.7 implications...I wonder if another rumor/leak we will see pop up will be references in 10.7 to LightPeak, USB 3, SSD optimizations, etc. So far it seems like almost no 10.7 Lion info has leaked out??

This I agree with 100%. I'm not sure what is taking them so long, maybe it is a bigger overhaul than we realize. It is needed though as you say some of use aren't in the 20/20 crowd anymore.

This I disagree with TRIM was a bad idea from day one. It is far better to use SSDs that resolve these issues internally.

I wonder about that myself. It might be related to CPU power or possibly difficulties in distinguishing gestures and hand writing. It would be very useful on iPad if the could get it to work.

Well I think on the Macs Touch is out as far as active Apple support. That is Touch screens aren't going anywhere right now. It is probably the best as it adds a lot of cost for a facility of use to a small minority of Mac users. A Touch interface Mac OS would be a negative for most users. Well for most unless they can integrate it into the Mac GUI in a streamlined manner.

I came over here from another forum to look for a different POV, and people here sure are grouchy. Allow me to actually answer the OPs question.

The latest macs, and even the previous ones, should all run Lion just fine. They may need extra RAM but thats about it. I would NOT worry about feature support.

Of course no one knows all the Lion features. There may be a few new features, but not too many...its not in Apple's interest to release a new OS and make all the computers they have been selling for a 2-3 years unable to use a hi-profile feature. And it would be stupid of Apple to update their entire macbook pro line....and make it not 100% lion capable. So major, great features will almost surely be compatible with a lot of macs, while little ones may not be. Keep in mind the current trackpad/touch interface is much more well developed than the old ones, so theres not much more to add, unless its going to be like a whole ten finger touch pad or something crazy.

I expect Lion will be much like Snow Leopard was (for me)...a minor re-skinning, changing a few UI elements, and integrating touch and app stores a little better.

If you can wait for the next revision, wait. I would be VERY surprised if they weren't 100% Lion compatible (in terms of hardware). If you can't, well, it won't be a big deal.

I'm waiting for a new MBP just cause I can. If I had the cash and need, I'd get one right now. If I miss out on quintiple swipe+wink to turn on facetime, I don't really care. But thats me.

In summary: Lion will surely be at least as capable as Snow Leopard, so unless Snow Leopard has some glaring-to-you-but-minor-to-everyone-else UI problem you are hoping gets fixed in Lion, and can only be fixed in a certain way, it won't matter.

*blink*

Welcome to the forums. From the old-timers, thanks for being a rational newbie.

For one he has no idea what the new hardware will be like. Further Apple does have a history of dropping support for old hardware. They also have a history of introducing new hardware that is not backward compatible.

For example if or when Lightpeak comes out backwards compatibility will be next to impossible. Granted there is a limit to what new tech can go into a laptop, but it is just silly to speak in absolute terms about how unreleased hardware and software will interact. It is really being honest and not at all grouchy.

I've heard about this possibility and frankly don't see the big attraction. My position is that USB devices aren't going away anytime soon a thus you do not want to co-op the ports for other uses.

There may be some adapters but let's face it an adapter that goes from Lightpeak to a mouse, USB port or even a FireWire port is pretty stupid. The difference in performance is huge and the cost unacceptable.

We are more likely to see Lightpeak going to a hub of device ports. Lightpeak would also be ideal for storage boxes as in many cases transfer rates are now faster than USB or FireWire can handle. In any event one has to balance performance with cost

Actually you would loose a lot. That would be low cost expansion, easy access to USB devices and flexibility. The problem is optical interconnects are still expensive. Beyound that legacy USB devices will be used for years and whipping out a dongle to get to them is a no go.

Lightpeak can be additive to a system as long as you don't give up very important legacy interfaces like USB. Frankly I can see USB being used ten years down the road easy. Likewise with Ethernet. The other ports will fad away a lot faster though.

One of the big lessons of CES this year was that USB 3.0 is going to become a dominant standard. Every company that makes any kind of external storage had devices on display. Nearly every computer on display had the ports.

No one is waiting for Intel.

That is I have to wonder if Apple is opposed to USB 3 in any way or is simply waiting for it to be built into a chip set. Since Intel is dragging feet here I do wonder about the potential for AMD to get design ins. Contrary to popular belief AMD does have viable chips to compete against Apples more relaxed Intel implementations.

For example and AMD Mini could be easily designed to out perform the current one. Power usage would be slightly higher but not excessively so.

Before saying much, I will state that Im looking at the current 2.8ghz i7 15" Macbook Pro. The following comparison was done using this spec. vs. what I see as reasonable and realistic estimates of changes to the next generation equivilant (no revision).

After having read this thread, being confused by the ample technical jargon, and eventually withdrawing a number of seemingly reasonable statements I have drawn a number of conclusions.

Asides from a number of probably small changes that the Sandy Bridge (excluding the obvious) line will bring, many of them are not worth me waiting for the new hardware. While I appreciate the power saving, and thus longer battery life, I need a new MacBook soon. There lies uncertainty regarding graphics hardware (and resulting performance), which is a low priority of mine, and asides from the aforementioned battery performance only evolutionary gains in processor will be achieved. Other predicted hardware changes appear to be minimal. Lightpeak, while an interesting technology (which may or may not appear on the next gen), does not appear to have any immediate uses as the standard hasn't be released. Perhaps two generations from the current it will be desirable. Current configuration of screen aspect I believe are beneficial to those of true widescreen ratios (which seems like and unlikely change anyways). Looking at the current Macbook Pro's, they appear to me, to offer what I need. I don't game often, thus, the current adequate but not stunning graphic system is enough.

For future Macbooks, I can foresee greater value offered in either reduced price slightly, or in larger hard drives. Then the change in processor, but with the potential disadvantage of change in graphic hardware manufacturer.

Do these statements seem correct? Like I said, i had to wade through the jargon to best derive my conclusions.

First off the overriding consideration is this: do you have a need for a new Mac right now? If so then the rational move is to buy a new Mac. However if your needs aren't pressing I'd strongly suggest waiting.

Why you might ask? Well it is all about potential. You say things like battery life and GPU performance arent important to you but what is your actual experience here? If you have used portable devices much at all you will realize that battery lifetime can be a big deal.

As to things like the GPU and storage we don't know what the new systems will look like, however both can have a bigger impact on the user experience than many give credit for. See Mac Book AIR articles for supporting discussions. If you are looking at a 15" MBP the question of what you will get for a GPU is an open question. Just don't underestimate it's importance.

Why are GPUs important? Because they accelerate more things than people give them credit for. That is right now today, it isn't just games anymore. With the advent of OpenCL, more and more developers are leveraging the GPU in their apps.

How important all of this is to you is pretty much a function of what you expect to do with the machine. Oh and how long you intend to keep it. You didn't go into usage so I will offer this comment on life span. If you are like me you probably use the same machine for many years, if that is the case it pays to buy a state of the art machine. Mainly so that performance degrades gracefully over time. When considering what potentially could be in the coming rev it makes really good sense to hold off.

At this point I'd buy only if I really needed the machine.

I'm going to use it for word processing, powerpoint, a bit of video editing, photo editing, audio editing, a couple of games like rFactor and iRacing, some ESRI GIS map making (fairly intensive but it runs on crappy windoze boxes), and then the daily tasks like music and web surfing.

My current MacBook which performs adequately for most task is of this specification.

Model NametMacBook
Model IdentifiertMacBook2,1
Processor NametIntel Core 2 Duo
Processor Speedt2.16 GHz
Number Of Processorst1
Total Number Of Corest2
L2 Cachet4 MB
Memoryt3 GB
Bus Speedt667 MHz

As i'm sure you know, it really isn't capable of playing games. Also, the screen size is a bit small for some of the things I like to do, especially writing papers where I need a PDF open and the word doc open side by side. Also, making maps requires a decent amount of screen space when you are building documents that are 48 inches wide and up to 60 inches long once plotted.

p.s. we have nice SPAM around here.

Why; for one thing the video editing. Anything with a Sandy Bridge processor should run far better due to hardware support of encoding and decoding that is really good. Maybe it would be better to use the phrase "significantly better" with the qualification that software is updated to take advantage of the new hardware.

As for much of your other needs current Macs would do the job and frankly one with an SSD installed would probably really shine.

The best thing I've found for the PDF open or documentation access is a separate screen hooked up to my MBP. It makes a huge difference and these days is a relatively cheap upgrade. To this end I got a Samsung TV with an HDMI input to function as this second monitor. The screen isn't computer class if you ask me but works fine for documentations especially if set to larger than life size. The larger screen does offer other benefits too, for example game play, movie play back at 1080P and it can be useful for programming where you need to digest a big block of code. It is not however recommended for long session as the pixels are a bit blocky.

If you don't have a second monitor I think you will be surprised at how useful it can be in conjunction with a laptop monitor. It can be hard on the GPU to drive for gaming but for static display of text type apps it is not a big deal. If I was more into it I'd flip for a more professional monitor but this works for now. I'd even go so far as to suggest doing this sort of an upgrade first and then look into an updated Mac Book Pro.

There is a big problem with the MBP revs and that is that we don't really know what the Graphics subsystem will be like on the coming machines. As you note gaming is not an issue for you but I suspect multiple monitor support will be. I'd think on this a bit. When it comes right down to it the 15" screen won't help you as much as I think you need, thus the question of doing an upgrade without also looking at how you handle work flow.

This forum has become overrun with SPAM. This SPAMmer is here to garner pigeons who will use his sports-betting blog. However, this is one of the dumbest examples of SPAM that I have ever seen.