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Who'd do such a thing? - Page 2

Poll Results: Do you support this Tory policy?

 
  • 75% (3)
    No
  • 25% (1)
    Yes
4 Total Votes  
post #41 of 63
12/29/10 at 8:58am
The government doesn't make rich people rich. People get rich despite the government. The government can reduce wealth though. It can expand and prolong unemployment. It can also create and expand a welfare state.

Less is more.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #42 of 63
12/29/10 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

The government doesn't make rich people rich. People get rich despite the government. The government can reduce wealth though. It can expand and prolong unemployment. It can also create and expand a welfare state.

Less is more.

Yes, rich people get rich despite the government, and they will do so whether their taxes are 5% or 50%. A way to make more money than the average Joe will be found by those with the luck and skill to find it.

But with assistance, the Government DOES help the middle class to improve their lives. How many people working six figure jobs do you suppose got there without a huge amount of help from student loans? Do you honestly think as many would have done so without that help? Do you honestly think that as many intelligent and capable people will get through the UK higher education system now that their tuition is going up 3x, or will higher education become just another luxury reserved for the children of the rich, who might not be as intelligent or competent, but just happen to have the money to pay for school?
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post #43 of 63
12/29/10 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But with assistance, the Government DOES help the middle class to improve their lives.

No it doesn't. Nor does it help the poor.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #44 of 63
12/29/10 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No it doesn't. Nor does it help the poor.

If you say so...

Even though I already gave one example.
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post #45 of 63
12/29/10 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you say so...

Even though I already gave one example.

So if I give one example where it hurts the poor will you flip your view?
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
Reply
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
Reply
post #46 of 63
12/29/10 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, rich people get rich despite the government, and they will do so whether their taxes are 5% or 50%. A way to make more money than the average Joe will be found by those with the luck and skill to find it.

But with assistance, the Government DOES help the middle class to improve their lives. How many people working six figure jobs do you suppose got there without a huge amount of help from student loans? Do you honestly think as many would have done so without that help? Do you honestly think that as many intelligent and capable people will get through the UK higher education system now that their tuition is going up 3x, or will higher education become just another luxury reserved for the children of the rich, who might not be as intelligent or competent, but just happen to have the money to pay for school?

I think even more people would go through without government assistance. The only areas of most economies that have costs that continually outstrip inflation are those in which the government gets involved. There is plenty of talk about a higher education bubble right now. Look at all the other bubbles and they were often government related as well. Health care costs are distorted due to government. Home prices through the bubble, government. Higher education costs continuing to rise at double to triple the rate of inflation...one word....government.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #47 of 63
12/29/10 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you say so...

Even though I already gave one example.

Helping people go into debt isn't helping people.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #48 of 63
12/29/10 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I think even more people would go through without government assistance. The only areas of most economies that have costs that continually outstrip inflation are those in which the government gets involved. There is plenty of talk about a higher education bubble right now. Look at all the other bubbles and they were often government related as well. Health care costs are distorted due to government. Home prices through the bubble, government. Higher education costs continuing to rise at double to triple the rate of inflation...one word....government.

Yep. You nailed it. He doesn't realize that the loans become "necessary" because of the way government intervention into the markets has distorted prices (upward) to the benefit of some cozy, well-connected and well-protected industries. The three you've listed are perfect examples.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #49 of 63
12/29/10 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I think even more people would go through without government assistance. The only areas of most economies that have costs that continually outstrip inflation are those in which the government gets involved. There is plenty of talk about a higher education bubble right now. Look at all the other bubbles and they were often government related as well. Health care costs are distorted due to government. Home prices through the bubble, government. Higher education costs continuing to rise at double to triple the rate of inflation...one word....government.

The only answer to the question "Why do prices go up" is "Because people are willing and able to pay more".

Cheap loans with government assistance mean families can afford to pay more and so the colleges charge more.

No money down interest only home loans mandated by the government means ... bubble Bubble BUBBLE POP!

Health care costs paid by third party where actual costs are hidden from most customers ... bubble Bubble BUBBLE POP!
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
Reply
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
Reply
post #50 of 63
12/29/10 at 8:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I think even more people would go through without government assistance. The only areas of most economies that have costs that continually outstrip inflation are those in which the government gets involved. There is plenty of talk about a higher education bubble right now. Look at all the other bubbles and they were often government related as well. Health care costs are distorted due to government. Home prices through the bubble, government. Higher education costs continuing to rise at double to triple the rate of inflation...one word....government.

Wrong. Two words. AMERICAN Government. The American system is inefficient because of partisan politics. Period. Go almost anywhere in the world where they have universal healthcare and college subsidies, and you'll find a more efficient system than the US. So obviously, government per se is not the problem.
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post #51 of 63
12/29/10 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Wrong. Two words. AMERICAN Government. The American system is inefficient because of partisan politics. Period. Go almost anywhere in the world where they have universal healthcare and college subsidies, and you'll find a more efficient system than the US. So obviously, government per se is not the problem.

You are right that the US government is inefficient. Whether this is a result of the two-party system or not is probably debatable...regardless it appears that inefficient government was by design of the founding fathers. All that said, what do you suggest as a solution to this inefficiency?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #52 of 63
12/29/10 at 9:43pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You are right that the US government is inefficient. Whether this is a result of the two-party system or not is probably debatable...regardless it appears that inefficient government was by design of the founding fathers. All that said, what do you suggest as a solution to this inefficiency?

Or, it wasn't and you just interpret it that way and half the people in politics aim to make it that way. Self-fulfilling prophecy!

Why do Republicans pass any laws at all? Why not just run out the clock whenever they have power? They win the presidency and then say "alright, have fun America--see you in 4 years!" They win the Senate or the House and then say "have fun not passing anything at all without a majority because we just won't vote on anything!" If they really want government out of the public's lives so much, get elected and do nothing. See how wonderful our country becomes.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #53 of 63
12/29/10 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or, it wasn't and you just interpret it that way and half the people in politics aim to make it that way. Self-fulfilling prophecy!

Why do Republicans pass any laws at all? Why not just run out the clock whenever they have power? They win the presidency and then say "alright, have fun America--see you in 4 years!" They win the Senate or the House and then say "have fun not passing anything at all without a majority because we just won't vote on anything!" If they really want government out of the public's lives so much, get elected and do nothing. See how wonderful our country becomes.

They already do that, and that's what I mean by partisan politics (not "two party system"). There are numerous Republicans who block any and all measures and appointments from President Obama just to be obstructionist against the opposing party, and for no other reason. Despicable!
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post #54 of 63
12/29/10 at 10:27pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Of course, but they are doing it while Democrats have the power--like a spoiled brat who didn't get picked first so he runs away with the ball so nobody can play. If they truly believe in the nonfunction of government, why not ALWAYS do that, INCLUDING when they are in power?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #55 of 63
12/29/10 at 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Of course, but they are doing it while Democrats have the power--like a spoiled brat who didn't get picked first so he runs away with the ball so nobody can play. If they truly believe in the nonfunction of government, why not ALWAYS do that, INCLUDING when they are in power?

Well, because they want to keep passing spending initiatives like starting, continuing and escalating wars and bailing out corporations that are "too big to fail". And while they're doing this they want to keep passing initiatives that cut national income like tax cuts for the rich and deregulation that makes it easy for companies to avoid taxes in multiple ways. They want to pass initiatives that create an entirely new, wasteful infrastructure of "domestic security".

I expect many rolleyes from the ignorant and the denialists...
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post #56 of 63
12/30/10 at 2:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, because they want to keep passing spending initiatives like starting, continuing and escalating wars and bailing out corporations that are "too big to fail". And while they're doing this they want to keep passing initiatives that cut national income like tax cuts for the rich and deregulation that makes it easy for companies to avoid taxes in multiple ways. They want to pass initiatives that create an entirely new, wasteful infrastructure of "domestic security".

I expect many rolleyes from the ignorant and the denialists...

You may want to check the democrat voting record on the bailout. They were in control of congress and Obama supported it. Many in both parties expressed concern and opposition.

I'm sure you can't see that through your hyperpartisan hatred.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
Reply
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
Reply
post #57 of 63
12/30/10 at 4:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

You may want to check the democrat voting record on the bailout. They were in control of congress and Obama supported it. Many in both parties expressed concern and opposition.

I'm sure you can't see that through your hyperpartisan hatred.

Nope. I think the Democrats who supported these bailouts are equally as hideous. Including Obama. But without Republican "pressure" many of those would have done different. My bias is not a partisan one. I'm biased against greed and mismanagement. It just so happens that those things are usually the product of Republicans. When they come from Democrats, like the disgusting tax "compromise", I call those Democrats for what they are. Conservatives.
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post #58 of 63
12/30/10 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Wrong. Two words. AMERICAN Government. The American system is inefficient because of partisan politics. Period. Go almost anywhere in the world where they have universal healthcare and college subsidies, and you'll find a more efficient system than the US. So obviously, government per se is not the problem.

Their systems aren't at all more efficient. They just have better ways of hiding the costs. In the past the costs were often hidden via inflation or debt creation. It will be interesting to see what happens to Hong Kong long term since it has gone from colony to territory to property of PRC. It gives it a very different sort of background. The rest of Asia largely has funded through debt creation. The problems in Europe with Sovereign Debt Crisis largely have to do with the Euro and may of the countries there being unable to engage in their old habits of inflating away their debts.

Debt creation nor inflation in any form prove something is affordable or efficient.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #59 of 63
12/30/10 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or, it wasn't and you just interpret it that way and half the people in politics aim to make it that way. Self-fulfilling prophecy!

Perhaps, but then perhaps not. One thing that appears much less debatable was their desire for a far more limited central government than we currently have. So the questions of efficiency might be moot where they were concerned because they simply didn't see the central government doing everything that the modern US central government does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Why do Republicans pass any laws at all? Why not just run out the clock whenever they have power?

Don't know. You'll have to ask them. Could be the compulsion all politicians have once they have some power...to use it...to Do Something (tm).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #60 of 63
12/30/10 at 6:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

They already do that, and that's what I mean by partisan* politics (not "two party system"). There are numerous Republicans who block any and all measures and appointments from President Obama just to be obstructionist against the opposing party, and for no other reason. Despicable!

Surely you're not suggesting that this sort of partisan behavior is exclusive to one party?

Note to you: Partisan implies a party-based system. The moment you have a party-based system you have partisan politics. If your problem is with partisan politics then perhaps you advocate the elimination of political parties? You still haven't answered my question about what you suggest as a solution to the inefficiency of which you complain.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #61 of 63
12/30/10 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, because they want to keep passing spending initiatives like starting, continuing and escalating wars and bailing out corporations that are "too big to fail".

Are you talking about Obama and the Democrats? Because, I thought for sure this described exactly what they've done for the last couple of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

They want to pass initiatives that create an entirely new, wasteful infrastructure of "domestic security".

But keeping and expanding the power of a new, wasteful infrastructure of "domestic security" by a Democratic president and Congress is okay?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I expect many rolleyes from the ignorant and the denialists...

I expect the same in response to my questions...from the ignorant and the denialists.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #62 of 63
12/30/10 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Nope. I think the Democrats who supported these bailouts are equally as hideous. Including Obama. But without Republican "pressure" many of those would have done different. My bias is not a partisan one. I'm biased against greed and mismanagement. It just so happens that those things are usually the product of Republicans. When they come from Democrats, like the disgusting tax "compromise", I call those Democrats for what they are. Conservatives.

And here we return to the label problem once again.

I find it rather ironic that you appear to admonish the Republicans for being obstructionist and implying they should compromise and yet when the Democrats compromise they are disgusting and you imply they are being weak and unprincipled...essentially "conservative" in your view of the world.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #63 of 63
12/30/10 at 10:34am
This seemed relevant here: "Stumbling and Bumbling Toward Truth?"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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