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RIM denies PlayBook tablet battery issues, promises "superior performance" - Page 3

post #81 of 180
Hummm... I thought Canadians were actually smarter than average, generally, but it seems like they actually need the same lessons in PLAYBACK of digital recordings or of ANYTHING that gets posted on computers in one place being available in other places.. amazing how that whole network thing works...

So RIM - HERE - is saying "No worries about battery life - we're fine and even better than everyone else"... Well, take a brief moment to go half-way around the planet (sure better than flying) and get the word - on the SAME SUBJECT - from say, the Australians..

You's see the following headline "BlackBerry PlayBook may be tossed due to poor 'two to four hour' battery life"... curious how that's EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE what RIM are saying in this hemisphere... WHO'S LYING???

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/t...230-19ai1.html
post #82 of 180
.

Ya' know...

Ever since the PlayBook was first presented; videos in September; later controlled live demos...


Two capabilities have consistently been touted by RIM representatives as "far advanced":

1) The PlayBooks superior "full" multitasking

2) The Playbooks ability to deliver results without the need to depend on installed custom apps

RIMM has demonstrated a few "system" apps -- AIR, mail, contacts, calendar, and media player -- but every smart device has those.

They appear to say that for other requirements web apps are superior to custom installed apps.


Let's assume that RIM is correct on both points: "full" multitasking and web apps!


Then... What will the PlayBook be running in the background?

.
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post #83 of 180
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No name calling please!

Now, don't be a MEL melgross
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post #84 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwinski View Post

Hummm... I thought Canadians were actually smarter than average, generally, but it seems like they actually need the same lessons in PLAYBACK of digital recordings or of ANYTHING that gets posted on computers in one place being available in other places.. amazing how that whole network thing works...

So RIM - HERE - is saying "No worries about battery life - we're fine and even better than everyone else"... Well, take a brief moment to go half-way around the planet (sure better than flying) and get the word - on the SAME SUBJECT - from say, the Australians..

You's see the following headline "BlackBerry PlayBook may be tossed due to poor 'two to four hour' battery life"... curious how that's EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE what RIM are saying in this hemisphere... WHO'S LYING???

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/t...230-19ai1.html

The playbook is only half-done --- they never show something as basic as portrait mode, universal search, blackberry pairing...

Who is lying? Well, QNX did win an industry award for power management vs. Shaw Wu having zero clue and kept talking about car batteries. Shaw got stuck with the April press release when RIM bought QNX --- and all Shaw can think of is cars, cars and cars.
post #85 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

The playbook is only half-done --- they never show something as basic as portrait mode, universal search, blackberry pairing...

Who is lying? Well, QNX did win an industry award for power management vs. Shaw Wu having zero clue and kept talking about car batteries. Shaw got stuck with the April press release when RIM bought QNX --- and all Shaw can think of is cars, cars and cars.

1) You linked to a “prestigious award” from almost 7 years ago.

2) I don’t care how power friendly QNX is (which has yet to be seen since you won’t list any current handheld devices using QNX), if you have a poor UI, drivers and apps having an efficient kernel isn’t going to work.

3) So far, you are the only one speaking out the side of your mouth. Wu made stated the PlayBook tablet has poor battery life, he then inferred that the reason was QNX. His latter doesn’t have to be correct for the former to be true. They all have to be well managed for power usage or the product may be as big of a dud as the Palm Pre.

4) You can say that it has good power management, but compared to what? Are you saying it’s better than Android or Darwin? Are you saying it’s better than other OSes from 7 years ago? Big fraking deal.

5) The PlayBook is only half done? If it comes out in May that means they only started working on it 6 months ago?. You really think it’s a sound argument to suggest that the PlayBook has been touted by RiM and raised up by their CEOs as the bestest thing in the whole wide world when it’s only “half done”? Really?!
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post #86 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by blursd View Post

Is RIM becoming the Venezuela of the mobile technology industry ...?

Possibly.

But one thing's for sure. The RIM co-CEOs are blaring, non-stop, about nonexistent products just like all those World Cup fans blowing vuvuzelas. They say they're "way ahead" of iPad, yet they can't even demo the PlayBook.

RIM hasn't even successfully responded to the iPhone, which is rapidly eroding their core smartphone business. And now they're hyping vaporware. Those are two big steps down the same staircase Palm got thrown down.

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post #87 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) You linked to a “prestigious award” from almost 7 years ago.

2) I don’t care how power friendly QNX is (which has yet to be seen since you won’t list any current handheld devices using QNX), if you have a poor UI, drivers and apps having an efficient kernel isn’t going to work.

3) So far, you are the only one speaking out the side of your mouth. Wu made stated the PlayBook tablet has poor battery life, he then inferred that the reason was QNX. His latter doesn’t have to be correct for the former to be true. They all have to be well managed for power usage or the product may be as big of a dud as the Palm Pre.

4) You can say that it has good power management, but compared to what? Are you saying it’s better than Android or Darwin? Are you saying it’s better than other OSes from 7 years ago? Big fraking deal.

5) The PlayBook is only half done? If it comes out in May that means they only started working on it 6 months ago?. You really think it’s a sound argument to suggest that the PlayBook has been touted by RiM and raised up by their CEOs as the bestest thing in the whole wide world when it’s only “half done”? Really?!

(1) Safety RTOS moves at a much slower pace industry-wise than the general operating system. The space shuttle is still running on a computer built in the 1970's.

Logitech remotes are pretty recent, so as the military radio and so as the harman/becker personal navigation devices. Much more recent that the big cisco router which was launched in 2004.

(2) Sure if you have a poor UI, device drivers and apps then that is going to negate much of the advantage. But it is the same AIR UI that powers car dashboards --- and they only have something like a 200MHz CPU. Device drivers and much of apps shown are done by QNX, the same people who won the power management award.

(3) Sure, Shaw could be right that the current beta Playbook has poor battery life. But what to do with that fact is what is important. Shaw thinks that RIM needs months and months of tinkering with QNX because QNX is supposedly built for the big routers and not for battery life. Well, QNX is embedded in handheld military software defined radios where poor battery life could kill your own soldiers.

(4) Compare to what? QNX won the award at the Embedded World Conference. It is not like the BeOS fans who thinks that their OS is godlike --- but it was only godlike because they were comparing it with Windows 95.

(5) Speed to market --- that's what having a completely certified POSIX operating system is all about. Back 10 years ago, Sony announced their BeOS-based evilla internet appliance --- took 18 months to launch. Later on, 3Com hired some 3rd party QNX consultant to design the Audrey --- took 6 months to launch, sold them for a few months and then discontinued the Audrey before Sony finished their evilla design.
post #88 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Actually, QNX did win an award for power management.

http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_832_1.html

Since all the drivers are outside the kernel, they can kill them whenever they want (and restart them when they are needed). They don't have to just to kill the backlight of the LCD screen to save power, they can kill the whole video driver and turn everything off. You touch the bazel or touch the screen, QNX restarts the video driver.

According to the link you provided, QNX won an award for providing a framework for app developers [to provide power management] -- rather than for power management itself?

Emphasis mine:

Quote:
In contrast to conventional approaches, the QNX power management framework allows the application developer, not the OS, to determine power management policies. As a result, developers can create a highly customized power policy for every system they build and address device-specific problems unanticipated by existing power management standards. Leading telematics suppliers in the automotive industry are already integrating the QNX power management framework into their next-generation devices.

Perhaps the purported problem with PlayBook's battery performance -- there isn't an app for that!

On a secondary note, you continually criticize analysts of unfairly evaluating QNX in the "automotive" environment -- yet you, yourself, use that same environment to tout seeming "power management" advantage.

Which is it, Handheld or Automotive -- there is quite a difference in reserve battery capacity.


Out of interest, does QNX provide software within the OS itself to gracefully terminate running tasks and terminate QNX, itself, when the battery is low. I am asking about a feature implemented within the QNX OS -- not a framework provided so that outside developers can implement it.

For example, assume that:
-- QNX is providing power management for a vehicle
-- when parked, QNX allows major power-using components to be shutdown
-- some QNX shell remains operational with minimal drain on the battery
-- the vehicle is left for several months unattended
-- the battery reaches a level where continued usage will drain the battery below the level needed to start the car and recharge the battery

Can QNX detect this and turn itself off?

We had that exact requirement in the late 1990s. We had a home in Silicon valley and a vacation home in Tucson. We left a, then, new Ford in the garage in Tucson for 2-6 months at a time.

Sometimes after getting off the shuttle from the airport, we would have to call AAA to jump a dead battery.

My dad was an inventor and self-taught electronics wizard. I asked him about a potential solution that would set between the battery and its connection to the cars electronics.

After several months of hard work, lots of study, trial and error -- he had a proven working device. We did a patent search and found that there was a prior solution -- not exactly the same, not as good, but prior.

Anyway, my dad made a few devices that we installed on several cars (his and mine)-- and never experienced the problem again.
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post #89 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You really think its a sound argument to suggest that the PlayBook has been touted by RiM and raised up by their CEOs as the bestest thing in the whole wide world when its only half done? Really?!

Can't resist...

"Drown me! Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the battery patch."
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post #90 of 180
That's what I am thinking as well. They haven't done it yet and that's what RIM is saying.

Everything has power management --- hell, even server farms likes to pay less electricity.

I believe that there are 2 general power management scenarios --- one is car, which is you are optimizing when the car is off and the other is handheld, which is you are optimizing when the handheld on.
post #91 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Actually, QNX did win an award for power management.

http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_832_1.html

Since all the drivers are outside the kernel, they can kill them whenever they want (and restart them when they are needed). They don't have to just to kill the backlight of the LCD screen to save power, they can kill the whole video driver and turn everything off. You touch the bazel or touch the screen, QNX restarts the video driver.

Embedded is not necessarily the same as mobile.

Power optimization for a mobile OS goes much much deeper than turning off un-needed resources. It goes all the way down the actual processor instructions chosen to do certain tasks because they consume less power. QNX was probably not written with that level of optimization and retrofitting it may compromise the robustness and reliability that it is famous for.

Here is an interesting article.

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...spent-rim.aspx

Time will tell.
post #92 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

That's what I am thinking as well. They haven't done it yet and that's what RIM is saying.

Everything has power management --- hell, even server farms likes to pay less electricity.

I believe that there are 2 general power management scenarios --- one is car, which is you are optimizing when the car is off and the other is handheld, which is you are optimizing when the handheld on.

3 states for mobile devices: on; idle; off;

The well-designed mobile solution will go from full on, to idle (minimal power usage) to off when battery threshold is reached. This is an orderly progression so that state is preserved by non-volitle means -- and can be restored upon restoration of power.

This is totally different for mobile electronics!

A key router solution runs with both a continuous and a backup power supply!

An automotive solution runs with a battery continuously charged by an alternate power source (engine powering an alternator/generator) with lots of reserve battery power.

A Mobile solution with a single, finite, battery (and, possibly an auxiliary battery)

I do not consider a remote control as a mobile device -- it is non-critical and resides in the home where it can be easliy recharged or the batteries easily replaced.


Again, you seem to think that QNX has proven capabilities in the area of "mobile power management" -- please share some [current and relevant] links with us so we can validate your assertions.
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post #93 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post

As the saying goes.. "Promises are meant to be broken".

When not made by Apple?
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post #94 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Again, you seem to think that QNX has proven capabilities in the area of "mobile power management" -- please share some [current and relevant] links with us so we can validate your assertions.

Design win for handheld military software defined radios.

You don't have to agree with me on this, but to support Shaw's point that QNX is a complete nob on power management is entirely different matter. Which side is closer to the truth --- me or Shaw?
post #95 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've been wondering that as well. The new 2 core chips are said to use, on average, less power than the single core chips of the current generation. how much of a difference isn't specified, but I don't think it would make much difference. According to jobs, when speaking to Mossberg, the A4 "sips" power. It's mostly in the screen. The 3G takes some too, because that model is rated for 9 hours.

We don't know which, if any of the rumors are true, so it's hard to tell where Apple's going with this. If they do go with a thinner model, as we've read, then bigger batteries are out of the question. They would need a more efficient backlight. It just so happens that Apple recently got a patent on just such a technology, which would also allow for a thinner screen and backlight, but it may be too early to use it. But, who knows?

If Apple somehow got the life to 12 hours, all bets would be off. As it is, Apple has a big advantage over other companies with their owning the Os, and many years of experience working on cpus and chipsets, and then acquiring two companies in that field.

The advantage is that Apple has been working on power management for portable devices for OS X since 1998. They've likely been working on it for handhelds since sometime 2004, as the iPad was a project before the iPhone. As OS X is fairly compartmentalized, it's been easy to pick and choose what parts they need for iOS. Couple that to your own work on the chip, and who else can match that?

That is pretty generalized statement to make about dual core . The reality is slightly different. The A9 has more advanced power management capability so for a task which can be optimized for a multicore you can save power by shutting down a core or moving into a sleep state quicker after completing the task. The A9 instruction pipeline is different then the A8 and allows out of order processing so most tasks will complete faster at the same clock even on the same process node. So if both chips are built at 45NM and run at 1 GHZ the A9 dual core will use less power for a given task then the A8 single core. If both core are running at full usage, power consumption increases, but real world because you can rapidly shutdown unneed circuits, overall power consumption decreases and peak performance increase.
post #96 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Embedded is not necessarily the same as mobile.

Power optimization for a mobile OS goes much much deeper than turning off un-needed resources. It goes all the way down the actual processor instructions chosen to do certain tasks because they consume less power. QNX was probably not written with that level of optimization and retrofitting it may compromise the robustness and reliability that it is famous for.

Here is an interesting article.

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...spent-rim.aspx

Time will tell.

QNX has always been a small company that HAS to cater to all kinds of potential customers --- whether they are big router companies or rugged tablets on the factory floor. QNX put their OS into the Compaq ipaq like 10 years ago as a demonstration to potential clients.

They are an embedded OS --- by definition they are designed to occupy a smaller footprint, and use fewer CPU cycles from the start. They are in handheld military radios --- don't you think that they have done both power management AND robustness/reliability.
post #97 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Design win for handheld military software defined radios.

You don't have to agree with me on this, but to support Shaw's point that QNX is a complete nob on power management is entirely different matter. Which side is closer to the truth --- me or Shaw?

Got a link that shows battery performance on a handheld QNX device?
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post #98 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post

Of course, I could compare my height to that of the Empire State Building...

RIM's position:
I'm much taller than when I was born. My parent's house hasn't grown at all. Therefore someday I will be taller than the the tallest building.
post #99 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Got a link that shows battery performance on a handheld QNX device?

Why don't you file a freedom of information act request to DoD and see if they will give you the required information?
post #100 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

to say that it doesn't have any power management is, and I hate to use this term... retarded.

Balsillie has shown himself to be technologically handicapped.
post #101 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

QNX has always been a small company that HAS to cater to all kinds of potential customers --- whether they are big router companies or rugged tablets on the factory floor. QNX put their OS into the Compaq ipaq like 10 years ago as a demonstration to potential clients.

They are an embedded OS --- by definition they are designed to occupy a smaller footprint, and use fewer CPU cycles from the start. They are in handheld military radios --- don't you think that they have done both power management AND robustness/reliability.

It really doesn't matter what you or I think. You have repeatedly stated that QNX has done "power management".

That's all very nice!

What is germane to this thread (and others like it) is what effect does a QNX power management solution have on the battery performance PlayBook or BlackBerry phones -- e.g. mobile devices..

Realizing that QNX is not, yet, available (and verifiable) on either devices, we can only look to performance on other similar devices.

Shaw Wu states that the PlayBook (QNX) battery performance is poor.

The co-CEO states, vaguely, that the PlayBook (QNX) battery performance is competitive.

You make some vague statements that QNX has done power management and provide obscure references to 4-8 year old products that we cannot evaluate, nor read the specifications.


Reading through the history of your posts, you appear to have reasonable background with, and a vested interest in, the success of QNX and/or RIM -- for reasons that you haven't provided -- that's OK.

The RIM co-CEO has a responsibility to RIMs shareholders to present is corporation and its products in the best possible way -- that's expected!

Shaw Wu -- has a responsibility to his readers, his firm and its customers (investors).


Of the 3, which do you think provides the most objective analysis of QNX/Playbook.


My vote goes with Wu!


For the record, I have a significant position (for me) in AAPL, beginning in 2003 and increasing steadily over the years. Part of this is due to the fact that i have a 32 year relationship with Apple, its products and people.

That said, I would consider investing in RIM -- but I do not believe they are correctly positioned for the future, and they are underperforming in the near term.
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post #102 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Of the 3, which do you think provides the most objective analysis of QNX/Playbook.

My vote goes with Wu!

Shaw Wu --- may be the most objective --- but still be wrong if he never understood the subject.

You might as well count both you and me out --- because we are opinionated with an agenda.

I am not even saying that the RIM Playbook might not be delayed. It might delay to May for all I care. But as I stated repeatedly --- that there are a million things that are not done yet --- from portrait mode to universal search to the latest power management.

If the Playbook is delay to May, then it is because of all these million other things combined. Not Shaw's conclusion that it is going to delay to May because QNX is ill-suited for the handheld world and that requires massive tinkering to the core of the OS.

Which one of the three is more balance and more objective?
post #103 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Why don't you file a freedom of information act request to DoD and see if they will give you the required information?

My, my... isn't that helpful!


I ask you to support your assertions and you can't.


In my career, I worked for Consolidted Elctro-Dynamics (Invented the Burroughs Computer), Bell and Howell, Lockheed, Hoffman Electronics, and IBM. Then, I owned my own business (Computer Stores) and won government contracts, including a $1 million bid for Computers and LANS for military training control, U.S. Army Command College, Ft. Leavenworth, KS. *

* Ft. Leavenworth was the home of the famous Jr. Jr. High School among other things

http://ftlvn.schoolfusion.us/modules...9a18b77fa86c71


I have worked on both sides of military contracts -- and realize that many specs/requirements go into a military procurement.

The fact that QNX was included in a ruggedized handheld phone -- means just that: QNX was included in a ruggedized handheld phone.

Without knowing the specs, I would assume that it had a small display, an oversize battery with a use life of, say, 5 hours full usage and 10 hours standby, was ruggedized and weighed 3-4 lbs.

The iPad specs (partial):

Size and weight
Height: 9.56 inches (242.8 mm)
Width: 7.47 inches (189.7 mm)
Depth: 0.5 inch (13.4 mm)
Weight:
1.5 pounds (0.68 kg) Wi-Fi model;
1.6 pounds (0.73 kg) Wi-Fi + 3G model

Battery and power
Built-in 25-watt-hour rechargeable lithium-polymer battery
Up to 10 hours of surfing the web on Wi-Fi, watching video, or listening to music
Up to 9 hours of surfing the web using 3G data network
Charging via power adapter or USB to computer system

http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/

According to reviewers, the battery specs have proven to be conservative.

These are the specs that were released during the product announcement -- firm specs, not "on track to be competitive" (paraphrased).

All I can say to you and the co-CEOs -- If you have it, flaunt it! *

* competitive, or even reasonable battery specs.
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post #104 of 180
Neptec, long time QNX user who did the shuttle visioning system, has just been selected to build the next gen Moon rover. Yea, somehow operating in 200 below and using a small solar power panel --- and QNX knows nothing about power management.

http://onqpl.blogspot.com/2010/11/ne...velop-new.html
post #105 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by shapesNforms View Post

So, if ONE analyst asserts something about a competing product, it's taken by AI and the Apple community as pure fact. But if an analyst says something negative about an Apple product, AI will go all out to disparage that analyst and just gloss over what that analyst might have said...I'm pretty sure at this point, AI runs it's original stories through Apple's PR department for approval before posting them...

For a community that is the #1 leader in the tablet area right now, why do we constantly feel the need to try and take shots at competitors? I don't walk around shoving my iPad in people's faces to show it off and this constant bashing of competitors is getting a little tiring. I for one, hope the Play Book is every bit as good as the iPad...Not that there is a good chance of that but I want a real competitor out there so Apple is forced to look ahead, and move ahead instead of sitting on it's ass until some real competition does catch up....

Because some of us in addition to loving the company and its products are stockholders. And we faithful who held our stock when it was virtually worthless are gloating daily and want to ensure that the stock keeps moving in the right direction. That's why people are crazy stupid about knocking any possible competitors. Of course the fact is that Apple is an incredible company. So...that's the story.

A Healthy and Happy 2011 to All
post #106 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Shaw Wu --- may be the most objective --- but still be wrong if he never understood the subject.

You might as well count both you and me out --- because we are opinionated with an agenda.

I am not even saying that the RIM Playbook might not be delayed. It might delay to May for all I care. But as I stated repeatedly --- that there are a million things that are not done yet --- from portrait mode to universal search to the latest power management.

If the Playbook is delay to May, then it is because of all these million other things combined. Not Shaw's conclusion that it is going to delay to May because QNX is ill-suited for the handheld world and that requires massive tinkering to the core of the OS.

Which one of the three is more balance and more objective?


Here is the meat of what you seem to take issue:

Analyst Shaw Wu of Kaufman Bros. issued a note to investors Tuesday warning that engineering issues with the BlackBerry PlayBook's battery life could be the cause of delays. According to Wu, the PlayBook's "relatively poor battery life of a few hours" needs improvement.

...

According to Wu, these battery problems have arisen partly because "QNX wasn't originally designed for mobile environments


Just what specifc information can you cite that refutes this and supports the assertions you make above?


Here's the full quote with a link to the article:

Quote:
Analyst Shaw Wu of Kaufman Bros. issued a note to investors Tuesday warning that engineering issues with the BlackBerry PlayBook's battery life could be the cause of delays. According to Wu, the PlayBook's "relatively poor battery life of a few hours" needs improvement. By comparison, Apple's iPad gets 10 hours of battery life and the Android-based Samsung Galaxy Tab gets 6 hours.

The battery issue could "require a bit of re-engineering," said Wu, and is "likely why RIMM pushed out its launch to the May 2011 quarter." RIM had promised a first quarter 2011 launch for the PlayBook, but left the tablet off its projected revenues for its next fiscal quarter, which ends Feb. 26.

According to Wu, these battery problems have arisen partly because "QNX wasn't originally designed for mobile environments." RIM bought QNX, which makes operating systems for everything from "cars to nuclear reactors," earlier this year.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...lyst_says.html
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post #107 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

According to Wu, these battery problems have arisen partly because "QNX wasn't originally designed for mobile environments

Just what specifc information can you cite that refutes this and supports the assertions you make above?

And that's precisely I am disagreeing with --- because Shaw never knew about the handheld military radios and the next gen moon rovers.
post #108 of 180
Tablets are defined by those selling tablets, not by executive dreamers who wish to sell a tablet someday.
post #109 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Neptec, long time QNX user who did the shuttle visioning system, has just been selected to build the next gen Moon rover. Yea, somehow operating in 200 below and using a small solar power panel --- and QNX knows nothing about power management.

http://onqpl.blogspot.com/2010/11/ne...velop-new.html

I understand that words can have more than one meaning, but I dont think its possible that you misunderstood the usage of mobile in this context as to suggest the Space Shuttle as a your example of a mobile device.

I guess when I refer to the iPad as a satellite computer I need to clarify that Im not actually including all artificial satellites. \
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post #110 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I understand that words can have more than one meaning, but I dont think its possible that you misunderstood the usage of mobile in this context as to suggest the Space Shuttle as a your example of a mobile device.

I guess when I refer to the iPad as a satellite computer I need to clarify that Im not actually including all artificial satellites. \

We are also talking about smart autonomous rovers that operate in extreme environment with tiny solar panels --- in which most of the power is going to either driving the wheels of the rover or the heater within the body of rover to keep the electronics from freezing.

If the rover uses too much power at night --- then it won't wake up in the morning and you just wasted hundreds of millions of dollars. That's called power management.
post #111 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

And that's precisely I am disagreeing with --- because Shaw never knew about the handheld military radios and the next gen moon rovers.

Right!

Why don't you provide us with the "power management" and "battery performance" requirements of the handheld radios and next genii moon rovers -- and how QNX addresses these items?

BTW, in another life I worked for companies that made solar cells (Hoffman Electronics Corporation) and made all sorts of specialized military equipment and vehicles (Lockheed Corporation) and the "Suitcase computer" for the 1st Moon landing (IBM).

http://www.ibm.com/ibm/ideasfromibm/...ng_Special.pdf

As I mentioned before there is nothing special about those military handhelds -- Hell I had some military surplus walkie-talkies from WWII that ca 1950 that were ruggedized and gave great performance for several blocks away -- that's 60 years ago. BTW, they used a hand-trigger generator for power!

As to the military moon rover vehicle:

Likely that is a battery driven vehicle with several large capacity batteries. It also contains solar cells that can be deployed continuously (or as needed )to recharge the batteries. The solar cells, likely, reposition themselves to always point at the sun. The efficiency of solar cells in the moon's thin atmosphere is, likely, many times greater than what we have on earth.

The operating environment is, largely, a function of the hardware (heating an cooling components to work within a given temperature range. Certainly an OS like QNX could monitor sensors and adjust controls to maintain the operating environment -- as could any modern OS. QNX may be better designed for these. specific tasks, though, than a Linux or OSX derivative.

However, when push comes to shove, a moon rover with separate power source (Battery & Solar-generator) is just a special case of the automobile (battery & gasoline-powered generator) operating in a tough neighborhood.

The link you provided (like your other links) gave no specific specs or even an assertion that QNX was being used for power management.

So, while you, I and Shaw Wu may find these interesting and supportive of popularity and utility QNX -- they do nothing to refute his assertions, and nothing to support your assertions.


Do you actually believe:

1) that Shaw Wu doesn't know about these uses of QNX?

2) that, even if he did know about them, it would have changed his research and conclusions?

3) that he would willfully hide specific information from his (and his company's) investor clients?

4) To what end?


Hey, I've got some liquidity right now -- and I am considering buying more APPL in anticipation of a run up to $400.

Give me a reason, based on some facts, why I should by RIMM instead?
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post #112 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

1) that Shaw Wu doesn't know about these uses of QNX?

2) that, even if he did know about them, it would have changed his research and conclusions?

The whole Wall Street doesn't know anything about QNX --- that's why they bought the integration with cars argument in April when RIM bought QNX. NOT a single analyst even talked about the possibility of RIM totally migrating to QNX.

What "conclusion" are you talking about? The conclusion that the Playbook may be delayed to May. Well, even I have talked about the possibility of delay --- but at the very least I came to my conclusion with real facts --- like a million things not being finished.

As for you saying that military radios and moon rover are not that out of the ordinary, QNX is saying the exact opposite --- that conventional power management in laptops and PDA's is the fairly ordinary kind of power management and that QNX is going beyond it.
post #113 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

We are also talking about smart autonomous rovers that operate in extreme environment with tiny solar panels --- in which most of the power is going to either driving the wheels of the rover or the heater within the body of rover to keep the electronics from freezing.

If the rover uses too much power at night --- then it won't wake up in the morning and you just wasted hundreds of millions of dollars. That's called power management.

I don't think so! These are battery driven. The solar panels are recharging the batteries. The solar panels are much more efficient in the moon's thin atmosphere!
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post #114 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I don't think so! These are battery driven. The solar panels are recharging the batteries. The solar panels are much more efficient in the moon's thin atmosphere!

They also have to keep the rover heated at night from 200 below so that the electronics don't freeze while getting no power from the solar panel and still keep enough power to wake up in the morning. All the while, there is zero human input.
post #115 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

The whole Wall Street doesn't know anything about QNX --- that's why they bought the integration with cars argument in April when RIM bought QNX. NOT a single analyst even talked about the possibility of RIM totally migrating to QNX.

What "conclusion" are you talking about? The conclusion that the Playbook may be delayed to May. Well, even I have talked about the possibility of delay --- but at the very least I came to my conclusion with real facts --- like a million things not being finished.

Why are your assertions facts? Because you say so?

Why are Shaw Wu's assertions not facts? Because you say so?


I'll tell you what I think, based on 54 years of computer experience -- and what I have read and seen:

The PlayBook, as we know it now, will not be available in any quantity or state-of-completion until July 2011.

By then, it will be an also-ran among several competitive products.

I don't really care why -- whether it is QNX, AIR/Flash, Battery, Price, co-incompetance...

It will fail.
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post #116 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

They also have to keep the rover heated at night from 200 below so that the electronics don't freeze while getting no power from the solar panel and still keep enough power to wake up in the morning. All the while, there is zero human input.

I would expect that terrific power management for the lunar rover is no small task. It seems from RIMs statements that early prototypes were not tweaked for power management. Okay, I'll buy that.

Let's see a Playbook that is finished fully finished and ready to ship. RIM have been doing an awful lot of smack-talk and boasting with little to back it up. I think that's what bothers most of us. The Playbook looks as though it might have some promise "if" it does what they say it does and costs what they say it'll cost and even then they have a fully stocked Apple AppStore to compete with.

I'm not saying that the Playbook will fail, I simply saying that this is going to be an uphill battle for sure.

Personally I don't want to hear anymore statements from RIM on this thing until they have the device finished and ready-to-ship. They've been boasting for months about a product that doesn't appear to be nearly finished or ready to ship. Enough already!
post #117 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

They also have to keep the rover heated at night from 200 below so that the electronics don't freeze while getting no power from the solar panel and still keep enough power to wake up in the morning. All the while, there is zero human input.

That's called "making hay while the sun shines"

Some of the battery power will certainly go to maintaining the temperature.

There are also some electronics that are temperature-compensated in they are designed to operate with the same characteristics across a wide temperature range.

But there is also a thing called insulation. When I worked for Lockheed in 1960-61, they had developed insulated panels used to create instant housing for harsh environments (Think South Pole). AIR, it was made in wall-sized panels 1-2" thick -- LockPaq, or somesuch. Lockheed did a lot of top-secret stuff -- the blackbird SST, a lot of space-related stuff -- they claimed that 1/3 of the satellites in space were made by Lockheed.

So, I suspect, with efficient solar cells, efficient battery storage, efficient insulation, they can maintain operating temperature for critical components for weeks -- if I know anything about mil-specs.
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post #118 of 180
Paying off their loans does nothing to disprove the assessment of Obama; his actions speak volumes.
post #119 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Neptec, long time QNX user who did the shuttle visioning system, has just been selected to build the next gen Moon rover. Yea, somehow operating in 200 below and using a small solar power panel --- and QNX knows nothing about power management.

http://onqpl.blogspot.com/2010/11/ne...velop-new.html

Do you agree that power management in a motorized robot, a solar powered calculator, a desktop computer, a laptop, a central air-conditioning system are all different? They all use different power sources and do different things.

For devices like iPhones and iPads, power management optimization begins at the hardware design and CPU/GPU design and memory bus design level and then the OS + Frameworks + Software are again optimized for the specific hardware. That sort of optimization takes much time and effort.

You can't just slap Adobe Flash and Adobe Air on top of an embedded OS with wild and uncontrolled multithreading on a dual core processor and a gig of RAM and expect to get the same results. It is a well known fact that Adobe Flash / Air are battery hogs, the entire QNX UI is based on Flash / AIR.

I do not know for certain but I think RIM screwed up big time. For what they are looking to do, QNX + Flash + AIR is not going to help much.

Time will tell.
post #120 of 180
Nor is it a black science that only Apple understands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Do you agree that power management in a motorized robot, a solar powered calculator, a desktop computer, a laptop, a central air-conditioning system are all different? They all use different power sources and do different things.

And just what does that have to do with the cost of a slice of bread?
Quote:
For devices like iPhones and iPads, power management optimization begins at the hardware design and CPU/GPU design and memory bus design level and then the OS + Frameworks + Software are again optimized for the specific hardware. That sort of optimization takes much time and effort.

And you think only Apple is capable of doing this?

Besides much of that design effort is not taken care of buy the SoC design process and the package on package construction of the processors going into these machines.
Quote:

You can't just slap Adobe Flash and Adobe Air on top of an embedded OS with wild and uncontrolled multithreading on a dual core processor and a gig of RAM and expect to get the same results.

You blew it right there. The implication that things are going wild on the Playbook is joke and you have no basis for stating such.

Flash is a problem but that should surprise absolutely no body.
Quote:
It is a well known fact that Adobe Flash / Air are battery hogs, the entire QNX UI is based on Flash / AIR.

I do not know for certain but I think RIM screwed up big time. For what they are looking to do, QNX + Flash + AIR is not going to help much.

Time will tell.

Sure Flash isn't a big help with respect to long term performance but it gets product to market and people here mis the importance of doing this. Playbooks long term success will be built around the coming SDK just as the SDK lead to an explosion of apps on the iPhone which then had an additive impact on iPhone sales.

You see what bothers me here is that Apple shoved iPhone out the door with just web app support when it first debuted. After a good long while we eventually got the SDK. Why when RIM is about to do the same thing, it gets no respect is beyond me. Sure they could fail, but they need to try. Especially if you are a die hard Apple iPad owner as it means pressure on Apple to upgrade.
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