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Spain Smoking Ban - Page 3

post #81 of 168
1/5/11 at 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

As I recall, the smoking ban in California came mostly from patrons who wanted a smoke free environment. Smoking was still permitted in bars. Later because of the evidence of second hand smoke became apparent an because of employee lawsuits, smoking in bars was also banned.

I don't believe that this would have been an issue if smokers were more considerate of others who find their smoke offensive and sickening.

Fair enough. I'm old enough to remember smoking sections in restaurants here in California and the smoke didn't really give a shit about staying in its little zone.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #82 of 168
1/5/11 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

The problem was solved in California..smoking banned...so no problem for me. But smokers violate the rights of those who do not want to breath their smoke. The problem is that people need to inhale, smokers can refrain from smoking when they go to restaurants. Maybe restaurants should have separate smoking areas for smokers when they want to smoke....but most restaurants in California were opposed to the cost of having separate designated smoking areas.

If you don't want to breath the smoke, don't go to restaurants and bars that allow smoking. Simple. No one is forcing you to go to those places.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #83 of 168
1/5/11 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is where your argument falls apart. Incidental protection is still protection. Full stop. End of story. Incidental or not, it doesn't matter. You're wrong. It's not opinion. It's fact. Protection of those aroud him or her is fact.

You see, even if one person gets vaccinated, you receive some amount of protection.

Incidental or not. and you very clearly said...

"You do realize that vaccines protect the person being vaccinated not those around him or her don't you?"

...which unless you either don't understand language, or you don't understand logic, makes the logical statement that vaccines don't protect those around those who aren't vaccinated [in any way at all].

OK. Fine. My wording was imprecise. None of this justifies mandated, government-forced vaccinations.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #84 of 168
1/5/11 at 4:27pm
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  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If you don't want to breath the smoke, don't go to restaurants and bars that allow smoking. Simple. No one is forcing you to go to those places.

It's still a hazardous work environment.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #85 of 168
1/5/11 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's still a hazardous work environment.

If you don't want to breath the smoke, don't work at restaurants and bars that allow smoking. Simple. No one is forcing you to work at those places.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #86 of 168
1/5/11 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If you don't want to breath the smoke, don't go to restaurants and bars that allow smoking. Simple. No one is forcing you to go to those places.

But I have a right to go there. Before the ban in California, almost all restaurants allowed smoking. California tried to have separate smoking areas, but as stated earlier this didn't work because the smoke would drift into non-smoking areas. As I recall, at the time people started to demand a ban on smoking in restaurants, a vast majority of people did not smoke. It takes only one smoker to smoke to ruin a meal for others.

What do you do in public outdoor areas where you are apparently opposed to smoking bans? Do non-smokers have to hold their breaths? As I've stated, it is the smoker who is violating the rights of non-smokers not the other way around.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #87 of 168
1/5/11 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If you don't want to breath the smoke, don't work at restaurants and bars that allow smoking. Simple. No one is forcing you to work at those places.

Sometimes you don't have a choice. If all restaurants and bars allowed smoking, how many employees will have a choice?

Second hand smoke is hazardous...or don't you agree? Should we void all clean air laws and allow industrial plants emit toxic substances into the atmosphere?...after all its their property and they should be able to do what ever they want. Might as well do away with the Clean Water Act. Like it or not, sometimes there has to be regulations to protect the public.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #88 of 168
1/5/11 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

But I have a right to go there.

Actually you really don't. It's private property. You have a privilege, granted to you by the property owners, to go there so long as you adhere to the rules of the property owners.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

What do you do in public outdoor areas where you are apparently opposed to smoking bans?

Depends on the context. If the outdoor area is government owned, then I see no problem with such bans.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

As I've stated, it is the smoker who is violating the rights of non-smokers not the other way around.

Sort of. But if you are voluntarily in proximity to someone you know is smoking then, I'd argue, your rights claim is substantially weakened.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #89 of 168
1/5/11 at 8:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Sometimes you don't have a choice.

Such as?


Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

If all restaurants and bars allowed smoking, how many employees will have a choice?

All of them. They are not slaves forced to worked there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Second hand smoke is hazardous...or don't you agree?

I do agree.


[QUOTE=FineTunes;1778393]Should we void all clean air laws and allow industrial plants emit toxic substances into the atmosphere?...after all its their property and they should be able to do what ever they want. Might as well do away with the Clean Water Act.[QUOTE=FineTunes;1778393]

Well these are situations where property rights and boundaries are much more difficult, though not impossible, to police. The proximity of pollution is vastly different (much larger in the examples you mention.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Like it or not, sometimes there has to be regulations to protect the public.

So you claim.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #90 of 168
1/5/11 at 8:26pm
A very timely article.

Vaccine autism report was fraud.
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post #91 of 168
1/5/11 at 8:26pm
dupelpost
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post #92 of 168
1/5/11 at 8:32pm
Here's another good one (those this is a couple of years older): Vaccine Politics

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #93 of 168
1/5/11 at 8:38pm
Apparently, MJ is so brainwashed with anti-regulation fervor that he thinks we should be allowed to ignore red lights, sell cocaine in a supermarket and play Kenny G any time we want to.
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post #94 of 168
1/5/11 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Apparently, MJ is so brainwashed with anti-regulation fervor that he thinks we should be allowed to ignore red lights, sell cocaine in a supermarket and play Kenny G any time we want to.

Well the first two might be fine...but the 3rd...punishable by death.


P.S. Isn't interesting that we cannot have a simple and honest difference of opinion...instead I'm brainwashed and, of course, you're not.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #95 of 168
1/5/11 at 9:45pm
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  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Apparently, MJ is so brainwashed with anti-regulation fervor that he thinks we should be allowed to ignore red lights, sell cocaine in a supermarket and play Kenny G any time we want to.

I'm ok with the last two.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #96 of 168
1/6/11 at 4:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Spain where I live has today introduced the strictest anti-smoking ban in Europe.



I don't smoke but I don't mind it - I like a nargile sometimes (hubble bubble) and that is banned too.

This is going to hit business in a country that is teetering on the abyss. It is also hypocritical of the Government to ban something they profit immensely from. Also it is more control of the populace.

I don't agree with it.

Thoughts?

I agree with it much better for health issues especially younger people who take up smoking and regret it afterward. Best idea yet.Lung cancer increasing, heart problems, diabetes, and so on. Great concept.
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post #97 of 168
1/6/11 at 4:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

I agree with it much better for health issues especially younger people who take up smoking and regret it afterward. Best idea yet.Lung cancer increasing, heart problems, diabetes, and so on. Great concept.

Why not keep the system they had before - some restaurants smoking, some smoke-free. Most eating is outside here most of the time anyway.

Now you have a situation where you can be smoking a joint of pure grass and no probs but spark up a ciggie and you're fined.

Seems a bit silly.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #98 of 168
1/6/11 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Why do have no problem with government banning smoking from public buildings but oppose government banning smoking from public beaches, parks and sidewalks?

Because those are outside public spaces where second hand smoke is really not an issue.

Quote:

Most people who oppose smoking would have no problem with smokers smoking in public or in restaurants if they could confine their smoke and ash to their immediate area and not litter the environment with their cig butts and smoke. Smokers brought this issue on themselves.

That is absurd. Containing the smoke and/or butts/ash is essentially impossible. Smokers haven't done anything different than they ever have.

Quote:

I disagree with you about not banning smoking in restaurants. They cater to the public and smoking and second hand smoke from cigarettes have been proven as a health risk. If you want to smoke your lungs out I have no problems with that except when it violates my air space. If restaurants cater to the public, they are subject to laws that are designed to protect them....we went through this already.

Every business caters to the public. These are private establishments. That said, I'm less concerned about a restaurant ban than I am a bar ban, open spaces ban, etc. I understand the point about the health risk. But therein lies the rub...if it's such a public health threat, we should ban smoking completely.

Quote:
What is more ironic is that the US Government has tobacco subsidies@
http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?f...ogcode=tobacco

I know. It's a screwed up situation. The government hats tobacco and tobacco companies. The government also relies on tobacco for tax revenue. And the government subsidizes them. Wow.
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post #99 of 168
1/6/11 at 5:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It has less to do with the patrons and more to do with the working environment. It's hazardous, plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

As I recall, the smoking ban in California came mostly from patrons who wanted a smoke free environment. Smoking was still permitted in bars. Later because of the evidence of second hand smoke became apparent an because of employee lawsuits, smoking in bars was also banned.

I understand the risks, but it's a legal product. It should be up to the owner to ban smoking, not the government.

Quote:

I don't believe that this would have been an issue if smokers were more considerate of others who find their smoke offensive and sickening.

There you go again. I have never heard anyone make this claim. I doubt I will again. Smokers can be as "considerate" as humanly possible, and second hand smoke is going to be an issue. This is why I support banning it in public enclosed spaces. But outside? In privately owned businesses? Trying to ban cigar shops? Not hiring smokers and actually FIRING current employees who refuse to quit smoking while on their own time? Come on. It's all happened, and it's several steps too far.
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post #100 of 168
1/6/11 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I understand the risks, but it's a legal product. It should be up to the owner to ban smoking, not the government.

That is what I have always thought should be the case. I don't think of these bans as trampling on the rights of smokers. It is interfering with the rights of business owners to operate as they choose, by allowing a completely legal activity within their premises.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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post #101 of 168
1/6/11 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That is absurd. Containing the smoke and/or butts/ash is essentially impossible. Smokers haven't done anything different than they ever have.

That's the problem. If smokers can't contain their smoke and ashes keep out of my air space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I understand the point about the health risk. But therein lies the rub...if it's such a public health threat, we should ban smoking completely.

We can agree on this.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #102 of 168
1/6/11 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

I don't believe that this would have been an issue if smokers were more considerate of others who find their smoke offensive and sickening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

There you go again. I have never heard anyone make this claim. I doubt I will again. Smokers can be as "considerate" as humanly possible, and second hand smoke is going to be an issue. This is why I support banning it in public enclosed spaces. But outside? In privately owned businesses? Trying to ban cigar shops? Not hiring smokers and actually FIRING current employees who refuse to quit smoking while on their own time? Come on. It's all happened, and it's several steps too far.

Monologuing again?

From the Incredibles:

Quote:
Lucius: [Bob and Lucius are sitting in a parked car, reminiscing] So now I'm in deep trouble. I mean, one more jolt of this death ray and I'm an epitaph. Somehow I manage to find cover and what does Baron von Ruthless do?
Bob: [laughing] He starts monologuing.
Lucius: He starts monologuing! He starts like, this prepared speech about how *feeble* I am compared to him, how *inevitable* my defeat is, how *the world* *will soon* *be his*, yadda yadda yadda.

Quote:
Syndrome: Oh, ho ho! You sly dog! You got me monologuing! I can't believe it...

What's wrong in smokers refraining from smoking while they're in restaurants, in public spaces where their smoke would drift...especially if there are children or elderly people...etc.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #103 of 168
1/6/11 at 7:51am
Deja vu all over again?

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=44573
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #104 of 168
1/6/11 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

What's wrong in smokers refraining from smoking while they're in restaurants, in public spaces where their smoke would drift...especially if there are children or elderly people...etc.

What's wrong with people who wish to avoid this smoke avoiding these places?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #105 of 168
1/6/11 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What's wrong with people who wish to avoid this smoke avoiding these places?

Kind of hard to keep out of public spaces.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #106 of 168
1/6/11 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Kind of hard to keep out of public spaces.

But not restaurants and bars...which has been the central core of the discussion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #107 of 168
1/6/11 at 10:43am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But not restaurants and bars...which has been the central core of the discussion.

Unsafe working conditions. You can't get around this point.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #108 of 168
1/6/11 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Unsafe working conditions. You can't get around this point.

I'm pretty sure I already addressed that. No one is forced to work there.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #109 of 168
1/6/11 at 12:01pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm pretty sure I already addressed that. No one is forced to work there.

There's a reason we have laws concerning safe working conditions. I momentarily forgot that you are one of those GUVMENT IS ALWAYS BAD NO MATTER WHAT REGULATION DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE drones.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #110 of 168
1/6/11 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's a reason we have laws concerning safe working conditions. I momentarily forgot that you are one of those GUVMENT IS ALWAYS BAD NO MATTER WHAT REGULATION DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE drones.

Then cigs should be banned. They are a legal product.

Here is one more example of going too far: Town bans sidewalk smoking.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/loca...n-20110105-apx
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post #111 of 168
1/6/11 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm pretty sure I already addressed that. No one is forced to work there.

Thats a silly, condescending and morally reprehensible argument.

Millions of people all over the world are forced by circumstances to do things they dont want to or technically dont have to, and that includes working in a smoke filled bar to feed your kids and keep a roof over their heads, and you put up with breathing in the shit because you love them.

Is it any suprise that the sociopathic anti-human viewpoint comes from the right?
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post #112 of 168
1/6/11 at 1:49pm
For crying out loud!- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAC2xeT2yOg

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #113 of 168
1/6/11 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's a reason we have laws concerning safe working conditions. I momentarily forgot that you are one of those GUVMENT IS ALWAYS BAD NO MATTER WHAT REGULATION DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE drones.

I take it you have no real argument against my claim that people are not forced to work in these places so you've chose you throw out a red herring?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #114 of 168
1/6/11 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I take it you have no real argument against my claim that people are not forced to work in these places so you've chose you throw out a red herring?

what part of love dont you understand?
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post #115 of 168
1/6/11 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

what part of love dont you understand?

Were we discussing love?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #116 of 168
1/6/11 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post


Millions of people all over the world are forced by circumstances to do things they dont want to or technically dont have to, and that includes working in a smoke filled bar to feed your kids and keep a roof over their heads, and you put up with breathing in the shit because you love them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Were we discussing love?

perhaps it went right over your head?
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post #117 of 168
1/6/11 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

perhaps it went right over your head?

If you want to make the argument that people are actually forced to work in these places, then make it. So far you haven't. Basically the entire argument in favor of banning smoking in these places boils down to "I want to go to these restaurants and bars and I don't want to put up with these smokers."

P.S. I hate...I mean despise smoking. I think it is a terrible and disgusting habit.

P.P.S. I also used to work in a smoking-allowed environment.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #118 of 168
1/6/11 at 2:43pm
I think its crystally clear now then that you dont know what love is, at least we know what were dealing with.

P.S I used to smoke, lots infact, but I gave up 2 and a bit years ago
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post #119 of 168
1/6/11 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But not restaurants and bars...which has been the central core of the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Unsafe working conditions. You can't get around this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm pretty sure I already addressed that. No one is forced to work there
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

Thats a silly, condescending and morally reprehensible argument.

Millions of people all over the world are forced by circumstances to do thin.gs they dont want to or technically dont have to, and that includes working in a smoke filled bar to feed your kids and keep a roof over their heads, and you put up with breathing in the shit because you love them.

Is it any suprise that the sociopathic anti-human viewpoint comes from the right?

MJ#'s right, nobody forces people to work....so let them collect unemployment or welfare. Lung cancer....too bad.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #120 of 168
1/6/11 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

I think its crystally clear now then that you dont know what love is

Is it now? Thanks for giving us a glimpse into your perspective.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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