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Give America back if you truly believe in Liberty. - Page 2

Poll Results: Do you support giving America back to the native population?

Poll expired: Dec 24, 2012  
  • 16% (1)
    Yes
  • 83% (5)
    No
6 Total Votes  
post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Bollocks!

I've never seen you post so many excuses for your government and this issue is not nuanced at all. A bunch of terrorist invaders killed people and stole their land. You can dance around it all day but it won't hide where your sympathies lie.

Who are you talking to?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Bollocks!

I've never seen you post so many excuses for your government and this issue is not nuanced at all. A bunch of terrorist invaders killed people and stole their land. You can dance around it all day but it won't hide where your sympathies lie.

I don't condone what happened, it was long before my time. You grossly oversimplify the situation. What I point out is that similar situations exist world wide....where do you draw the line? As I said in my first post, you would have to reconfigure most of the world.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #43 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Just out of curiosity, where do YOU live? If you care so much about this, start making America a worse place to live so that people move. You're not going to get 900 million people suddenly get up and leave two continents. It's complete idiocy.

Where do you get 900 million and two continents from?

I live in Scotland. We're pretty full up in the south but could make room for a few further north. Obviously this will take years of negotiating between governments and I'd bet Russia would be willing to play a major role and could reap huge rewards. Take a look on a map how big Siberia is. It's massive and sparsely populated. A lot of Americans would really feel at home there, it's bigger than the US. Wouldn't it be something to see what Americans could do with it?

I think over time many Europeans would see Americans as a real asset, adopting them in many cases and welcoming the the potential to build new businesses and homes in areas that were in need of fresh capital. Over time businesses would have to be moved and with it Americans will bring their expertise. I dare say you would actually see a real growth in entrepreneurs, a people rising to the challenge seeking opportunity as they've always done.

Probably the wealthy would move first, once the Europeans open their borders. They'll be quick to see that as more Americans come there'll have better established businesses to cater for growing demands. Back in the US businesses would have to be assessed for when the prime time to move would be. Some, a lot even, can't just uproot and take off. The thing is though the longer they leave it the less their assists will be worth. The handover to the Native Americans won't be for money, so businesses will have a host of incentives to move sooner rather than later.

The Native Americans I would think would actually like to have their country as a good example to the rest of the world. That would probably mean keeping areas of historical interest in the hands of Americans and keeping some businesses up and running like organic farmers, clean energy and medical research. That could leave say a good part of the main infrastructure, like airports, railways and major roads intact. A population of 10 plus millions Americans seems likely to be well within the realms of possibility, who knows they might even open their borders to migrants if it went well.

So you see it really is possible to accomplish and accomplish whilst improving the lives of a lot of people. It won't happen now, but the ball could be got rolling. Maybe 10-15 years or so, with enough effort, to get Europe to open up its borders and another 30 years or so to get enough people out, especially the under the 40's.

Just because it doesn't seem plausible now, doesn't mean it won't be later on. Clearly there will be a lot of people who just think "no way, never" now, but as the wheels begin to turn and as people see the first new settlers succeed and prosper, others will follow. A great act of peace will take place, indeed I would think a certain stigma could build up to those who could move, but don't, but even they will move eventually as they just won't have the possibility to make money and will have if they move. It's really a win win situation for everybody.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #44 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

I don't condone what happened, it was long before my time. You grossly oversimplify the situation. What I point out is that similar situations exist world wide....where do you draw the line? As I said in my first post, you would have to reconfigure most of the world.

Some other parts of the world certainly, but most places no. Most places are pretty much fine. Those that aren't might take a look at how this plan goes and modify it to suit there particular circumstances. It would be a real sea change and bring about a new kind of global peace. I think in most peoples hearts that's the kind of world they really want.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #45 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Who are you talking to?

If I've misrepresented your position then I'm sorry. You came across to me as not seeing the plight of the NA's for what it is. Sure they negotiated, they did the best they could, but they were rounded up and killed and had there land taken from them. They were granted small areas and at will the government violated the Treaties they drew up. The NA's land and way of life was taken from them and whilst there's all the ins and outs the basics apply that they were scammed and killed and it hasn't been put right. I would have thought that with your frequent criticism of the US government and your ardent defense of property rights you'd be up up their with the best of them screaming about the injustice, but that hasn't been the case. If that's because, like others here, you see my idea as absurd and not worthy of discussion fine, but it would have been interesting to see how you would try and address the problem.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Where do you get 900 million and two continents from?

Adding and kindergarten geography.

Quote:
I live in Scotland.

So whine to England first to give back land. Then you can worry about the Americas.

Quote:
Siberia



Quote:
So you see it really is possible to accomplish and accomplish whilst improving the lives of a lot of people.

Yes, because relocating millions to get back at them for relocating millions REALLY improves lives.

Just stop talking unless you've intended this entire thing to be satire.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If I've misrepresented your position then I'm sorry.

You have, and thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You came across to me as not seeing the plight of the NA's for what it is.

I believe this is you interpretation of my intent rather than my words. I was merely trying to point out that you have overly simplified a more complex issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sure they negotiated, they did the best they could, but they were rounded up and killed and had there land taken from them. They were granted small areas and at will the government violated the Treaties they drew up. The NA's land and way of life was taken from them and whilst there's all the ins and outs the basics apply that they were scammed and killed and it hasn't been put right.

I understand this as a high level summary of the situation but still doesn't necessarily take into account all the facts of a complex situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I would have thought that with your frequent criticism of the US government and your ardent defense of property rights you'd be up up their with the best of them screaming about the injustice, but that hasn't been the case.

Well, I'm not claiming that there wasn't injustice. There certainly was. But, back I also believe you created an overly simplified starting point for the discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If that's because, like others here, you see my idea as absurd and not worthy of discussion fine, but it would have been interesting to see how you would try and address the problem.

In order to properly address the problem one needs to fully understand all (or as many as possible) of the facts rather than simplistic characterizations of a situation. Then and only then can one really begin to formulate thoughts on responses to rectify the situation.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #48 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Some other parts of the world certainly, but most places no. Most places are pretty much fine. Those that aren't might take a look at how this plan goes and modify it to suit there particular circumstances. It would be a real sea change and bring about a new kind of global peace. I think in most peoples hearts that's the kind of world they really want.

Hotbeds of separatism in modern Europe

Separatist, Independence, and Decentralization Movements

Even in Scotland there is a separatist movement to break away from the UK....which do you favor?
Brown in defence of Union with strongest attack yet

Australia and New Zealand should be included in the mix.
New Zealand Anti-Terror Police Seize Weapons in Raid (Update2)

Why there should be no Aboriginal treaty

Seems that most of these "problems and injustices" were initially started by the British....why not then return all of their descendants to to GB and Scotland? Can you accommodate your relatives????
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I live in Scotland.

FYI...if you're interested...off topic, just thought....

'Baker Street' Singer Gerry Rafferty Dead at 63
Quote:
Gerry Rafferty, the Scottish singer-songwriter who had hits in the late '70s with the street life anthem "Baker Street" and mom favorite "Right Down the Line," passed away at the age of 63 following a long illness, the Guardian reports.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #50 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

FYI...if you're interested...off topic, just thought....

'Baker Street' Singer Gerry Rafferty Dead at 63

I heard this earlier. I didn't know he was Scottish.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
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