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CES: Microsoft keynote underwhelms with few surprises - Page 3

post #81 of 157
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Originally Posted by Jon T View Post

Why is DED always attacked? Because he was followed to AI by an asinine mob of idiots who also did the same when his articles appeared on Digg...

Because, clearly, some people feel very threatened by what he writes.
post #82 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

I know people hate microsoft here but i figured apple fans would be exited about the new touch technology microsoft and samsung came up with.

IF you watched the keynot speech the new surface 2 can actually see whats put ontop of it. they had a debug screen that showed you what the surface sees.

No I am not excited. The last "exciting" thing Microsoft came up was its touch table. And where is it today? Any products in sight after several years? Nothing.

No one should get their hopes for anything useful from Microsoft, unless they buy something off the shelf like the Kinnect product...
post #83 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

How is developing Windows for ARM "admitting defeat in the tablet space"? I'm not following you. That could be the only thing that saves Microsoft in the tablet and laptop/sub-laptop space, if they can pull it off in 2 years.

It's admitting defeat because there is no new ui layer on top of windows. Windows tablets have been around forever, but have not sold very well because desktop ui does not work well on mobile. Simply transitioning to arm means nothing, because apple transitioned osx to intel without changing the os one bit from the user prospective. Therefore, even an arm version of windows is still windows and if history is any guide will not sell well and will not match the usability of android palm or iOS.
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post #84 of 157
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Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Because, clearly, some people feel very threatened by what he writes.

Precisely, and it was the case at Digg. They wanted to silence a very good spokesperson for the truth about the tech industry.
post #85 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

But its true. For MS I cant think of a bigger announcement. Windows being made to run on a differnet architecture for the first time whilst Apple is on 3 for desktop and 4 if you count the iOS port. And an actual success with selling HW. Thats big news.

Well, it's particularly newsworthy since Nvidia is now looking to ARM/GPU designs to power servers*. I think Apple may also be headed in this direction, too, on the desktop/laptop, with the recent emphasis on GCD, OpenCL, Clang/LLVM.



* http://www.nytimes.com/external/giga...ill-48502.html
post #86 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon T View Post

Precisely, and it was the case at Digg. They wanted to silence a very good spokesperson for the truth about the tech industry.

It's quite telling when they focus more on discrediting the writer than what he writes that they don't actually have a real rebuttal so all they are left with is attacking the messenger.
post #87 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

But its true. For MS I cant think of a bigger announcement. Windows being made to run on a differnet architecture for the first time whilst Apple is on 3 for desktop and 4 if you count the iOS port. And an actual success with selling HW. Thats big news.


windows used to run on 4 different architectures in the 1990's. the DEC Alpha was the fastest at running NT4, but no one bought them due to cost. it still runs on IA64 but no one buys those either.
post #88 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

But it’s true. For MS I can’t think of a bigger announcement. Windows being made to run on a differnet architecture for the first time whilst Apple is on 3 for desktop and 4 if you count the iOS port. And an actual success with selling HW. That’s big news.

I want to see what will come of the arm development. Will we see an evolution of Windows to fit the ARM architecture? If so, how will it evolve? Has Ballmer looked at OSX and iOS and decided to explore the possibilities of some form of Windows lite for ARM? Is Windows itself going to change overall?

I think Ballmer is just giving us a peak at the direction MS is taking... just to let everyone know they are not in a coma.

MS has the $$$ to go out exploring for a while and still be able to come back with a bang. I'm not counting them out just yet but I really don't think Ballmer is the man for the job.
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post #89 of 157
MS has time. iOS is nice but it's a minimal feature set compared to OS X and Windows. and it's growing. I believe the size of the OS doubled from the original iphone to iOS4 and will go up again once iOS 5 is released. same with the iPad version. as apple adds new features the size of the Os will go up. same with the hardware requirements. just try to run iOS 4 on a 3G

at some point i the next 1-3 years the size of iOS and WinARM will be about the same along with hardware requirements
post #90 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Kinect is incredibly popular. 8 million units of an expensive add-on device for a 5 year old console is nothing short of phenomenal... but to do it in 2 months is almost unbelievable.

It is, in fact, unbelievable.
Clarifications by Microsoft since the announcement have confirmed that they have only shipped 8 million to vendors, not 8 million sales.

But it doesn't really matter. The "8 million sales" point has already been repeated enough that at this point it might as well be true.
post #91 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

windows used to run on 4 different architectures in the 1990's. the DEC Alpha was the fastest at running NT4, but no one bought them due to cost. it still runs on IA64 but no one buys those either.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I want to see what will come of the arm development. Will we see an evolution of Windows to fit the ARM architecture? If so, how will it evolve? Has Ballmer looked at OSX and iOS and decided to explore the possibilities of some form of Windows lite for ARM? Is Windows itself going to change overall?

Looking at how Win7 ran on the Atom and what we can expect from future ARM chips by the time Win8 is out I would expect it to run as well. itll never win any performance tests against x86, but it could cheap enough and power friendly enough to allow MS to sell servers with batteries of ARM CPUs and move into the cheaper markets that Chrome OS and Android will try to weasel into.


Quote:
I think Ballmer is just giving us a peak at the direction MS is taking... just to let everyone know they are not in a coma.

For better or for worse, this is a new MS. I like what theyve done with WP7 thus far.
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post #92 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrerTech View Post

It is, in fact, unbelievable.
Clarifications by Microsoft since the announcement have confirmed that they have only shipped 8 million to vendors, not 8 million sales.

But it doesn't really matter. The "8 million sales" point has already been repeated enough that at this point it might as well be true.


they didn't order 8 million if they didn't think they can sell them. i was watching fatwallet and almost no discounting on kinect or x-box. yet by mid december there was a $100 gift card deal for a PS3 bundle and PS3 Move was also on sale

with HULU+ coming i'm going to have to see about cutting out cable
post #93 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

It's absolute madness that Microsoft still don't have an entry into the "tablet" market at this stage.

The issue is that they are a software company. They need partners to make the devices and software that will make potentials choose it and not Android etc

As for the 'ready to order', what is my delivery date. I don't want another Slate where less than 10k were built and now I am waiting as long as two months for my tablet. By then, I can probably walk into a store and walk out with an iPad 2. Sure it is an inferior device but inferior is better than nothing

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post #94 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

at some point i the next 1-3 years the size of iOS and WinARM will be about the same along with hardware requirements

That seems pretty unlikely. Windows7 compiled to run on ARM is still Windows. iOS is first and foremost a mobile touch screen operating system, and added functionality still doesn't bring all the legacy cruft of Windows.

Now if MS wants to take their ARM version and start radically reworking it to create a mobile touch specific version, then sure-- I could see iOS and such an animal having similar footprints and hardware requirements (although Apple seems to be more focused on efficiency and power optimization than the competition, so there would probably always be a gap). But that would be because Windows Mobile Edition or whatever had gotten more compact, not because iOS had gotten bigger and less efficient.

And, anyway, none of that is likely to happen because MS already has a touch based mobile OS in the form of Windows Phone 7, based on the separate CE OS. It would seem pointless for MS to start trying to drive Windows per se into CE territory, hardware requirement wise, instead of trying to expand the capacities of CE.

Of course this a problem that Apple will never have-- as hardware gets more capable, they can steadily add OS X features until the two OS versions are on par, with the only difference being the UI.
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post #95 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

they didn't order 8 million if they didn't think they can sell them.

Thinking they can sell them and doing it is two different things

Quote:
i was watching fatwallet and almost no discounting on kinect or x-box. yet by mid december there was a $100 gift card deal for a PS3 bundle and PS3 Move was also on sale

sales during the holiday season, how scandalous.

It could mean low sales for the PS3 or it could be loss leaders, attempt to flood the market by giving retailers a killer deal on units, who knows. But it doesn't automatically mean anything. Nor does the lack of kinect etc discounts

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post #96 of 157
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Originally Posted by bettieblue View Post

DED wrote this with out a doubt.

it is at least obvious to most here all your ranting about Mr. Dilger would suggest that he has spurned your amorous advances at some point and is now the exclusive (besides all things Applesque) recipient of your extreme vitriole. The heavy-handed hate posts leads the observer to regard your extreme expressions as hiding an unhealthy "fatal" attraction to the blogging Dilger. You may want to rethink your approach if you want to dispell this pervasive perception, or perhap some "me" time away from these threads to find some other attraction to fixate upon.

We love you and only want you to be healthy and happy.
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post #97 of 157
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Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Thinking they can sell them and doing it is two different things

sales during the holiday season, how scandalous.

It could mean low sales for the PS3 or it could be loss leaders, attempt to flood the market by giving retailers a killer deal on units, who knows. But it doesn't automatically mean anything. Nor does the lack of kinect etc discounts


Aaron Greenberg, Chief of Staff for Interactive Entertainment Business at Microsoft
Quote:
@therealcliffyb We have no channel inventory, so essentially the same #....every Kinect we make we sell.
post #98 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

I know people hate microsoft here but i figured apple fans would be exited about the new touch technology microsoft and samsung came up with.

IF you watched the keynot speech the new surface 2 can actually see whats put ontop of it. they had a debug screen that showed you what the surface sees.

IF apple licensed this they could make ipads and iphones even better in the touch department.

PS keep in mind this is a consumer expo . New products usually are saved for their own events. Like at the technet events e3 and other places.

The new Surface 2 is (like the original) using four higher resolution cameras mounted below the surface to read what is put on the surface. Just like when they demo'd putting a camera on it and having the photos "spill" out - the cameras were reading discrete microdot labels put on the devices, so the PC running the Surface could tell what the device was. This is categorically NOT touch technology, and it is old school. In fact it was within weeks of the announcement about the Surface, that a couple of garage builders successfully demo'd (briefly) their version of the Surface and were told to remove it under pressure by Microsoft - who was a sponsor of the Maker Faire they were at.

So while the Surface can "see" what's on it, via the four cameras beneath the top, nothing about this technology is new or innovative - merely derivative and designed to distract you from the lack of real innovation or real interaction with the surface. It is the old smoke and mirrors routine designed to fool the unwary and uninformed.
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post #99 of 157
Bill Gates got out just in time. Now nobody can blame Microsoft's stagnation on him (even though he laid the groundwork for the company getting stuck in its current rut.)

"Underwhelms with few surprises" pretty much sums up Microsoft's performance in the Ballmer era.

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post #100 of 157
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Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

... PS keep in mind this is a consumer expo . New products usually are saved for their own events. ...

CES is for industry insiders and the media. It's not for average Joe consumers.

Yes, the products happen to mostly be in the consumer space. And since this is one of the biggest technology events of the year, most consumer electronics manufacturers don't "save" products for their own events. They're forced to show their stuff at CES.

All except Apple of course. Apple has their own product cycles, and they don't need a booth at CES. Every single pad computer, smart phone, mobile internet device, portable media player, netbook, laptop, and connected TV will be compared against an Apple product. In the press and in attendees minds.

And everyone attending CES knows that the Verizon iPhone is coming in a few weeks, and that iPad 2 is looming on the horizon. Apple casts a huge shadow over CES. And it gets free publicity from every single challenger.

Free publicity for Apple.
All day, every day.
Live from CES.

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post #101 of 157
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Originally Posted by addabox View Post

That seems pretty unlikely. Windows7 compiled to run on ARM is still Windows. iOS is first and foremost a mobile touch screen operating system, and added functionality still doesn't bring all the legacy cruft of Windows.

Now if MS wants to take their ARM version and start radically reworking it to create a mobile touch specific version, then sure-- I could see iOS and such an animal having similar footprints and hardware requirements (although Apple seems to be more focused on efficiency and power optimization than the competition, so there would probably always be a gap). But that would be because Windows Mobile Edition or whatever had gotten more compact, not because iOS had gotten bigger and less efficient.

And, anyway, none of that is likely to happen because MS already has a touch based mobile OS in the form of Windows Phone 7, based on the separate CE OS. It would seem pointless for MS to start trying to drive Windows per se into CE territory, hardware requirement wise, instead of trying to expand the capacities of CE.

Of course this a problem that Apple will never have-- as hardware gets more capable, they can steadily add OS X features until the two OS versions are on par, with the only difference being the UI.

it's not that hard to get rid of Windows legacy to save space. most of it is just multiple dll files to point apps to compatible versions. get rid of those and the driver database and the OS is pretty small
post #102 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

it's not that hard to get rid of Windows legacy to save space. most of it is just multiple dll files to point apps to compatible versions. get rid of those and the driver database and the OS is pretty small

Not really sure if that's true, and even if it is doesn't that defeat the purpose of "Windows" on ARM?

I mean what is Windows, at this point, if not a promise of compatibility? If you have to kill that off to achieve a reasonable mobile footprint, what is it for?
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post #103 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Not really sure if that's true, and even if it is doesn't that defeat the purpose of "Windows" on ARM?

I mean what is Windows, at this point, if not a promise of compatibility? If you have to kill that off to achieve a reasonable mobile footprint, what is it for?

Marketing purposes.
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post #104 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Not really sure if that's true, and even if it is doesn't that defeat the purpose of "Windows" on ARM?

I mean what is Windows, at this point, if not a promise of compatibility? If you have to kill that off to achieve a reasonable mobile footprint, what is it for?

a way to sell the latest version of Office?
post #105 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

a way to sell the latest version of Office?

Possibly, but then you have the following scenario: MS is actively supporting two mobile operating systems, one of which they have to strip down to function within hardware constraints, and one that they're busily adding functionality to. So that maybe they figure out how to run a new version of Office on a new Windows ARM Professional Mobile Edition (or whatever they would call it) but they are also surely working to bring Office functionality to Windows Mobile-- and none of this even touches on the historic problems of Windows in a touch environment.

Plus there won't be any merging of the two, because they derive from different code bases.

So while it's possible that MS intends to launch of "full" Windows for ARM that requires everyone to buy all new apps, that's pretty much a train wreck from a product roadmap perspective, since then you have two incompatible mobile operating systems competing for the same space (and no, just tacking on "Professional" to one set of products doesn't fix that).
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post #106 of 157
Microsoft did not develop it. It is licensed from an Israeli company, PrimeSense. Supposedly Apple had first crack, but was not easy to deal with. http://www.cultofmac.com/how-apple-a...ntroller/67951 .
I'm sure Microsoft did a lot of work, making it work with their Xbox, and Zune market place, but it's not their technology. Apple, however, has developed everything on the iPad. It created the hardware and iOS, and software except for iTunes, which was bought from Cassady and Greene, called SoundJam, 10 years ago. Now that I think of it, where would Apple be if they had never bought SoundJam? The ipod may had never been produced and Apple may not even be around today if that purchase never happened. Hmmm.
I kinda got off the subject, but my point is that Microsoft's successful new toy is just licensed technology. Since Apple had early knowledge of the technology, I bet they are working on their own version behind the scenes.
post #107 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon T View Post

Why is DED always attacked? Because he was followed to AI by an asinine mob of idiots who also did the same when his articles appeared on Digg...

Hahahahaha, why don't you go to roughlydrafted.com, and read his article about him complaining that Apple's release of new products was derided by critics as being "disappointing", accusing them of Apple not living up to the hype that they generated?


Don't dish it if you can't take it. While we cannot say this was DED for sure, it still is very fun pointing out his hypocrisy.
post #108 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmikeo View Post

Microsoft did not develop it. It is licensed from an Israeli company, PrimeSense. Supposedly Apple had first crack, but was not easy to deal with. http://www.cultofmac.com/how-apple-a...ntroller/67951 .
I'm sure Microsoft did a lot of work, making it work with their Xbox, and Zune market place, but it's not their technology. Apple, however, has developed everything on the iPad. It created the hardware and iOS, and software except for iTunes, which was bought from Cassady and Greene, called SoundJam, 10 years ago. Now that I think of it, where would Apple be if they had never bought SoundJam? The ipod may had never been produced and Apple may not even be around today if that purchase never happened. Hmmm.
I kinda got off the subject, but my point is that Microsoft's successful new toy is just licensed technology. Since Apple had early knowledge of the technology, I bet they are working on their own version behind the scenes.

Right, and where would iOS, more specifically, the iphone be without Fingerworks?
post #109 of 157
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Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

Right, and where would iOS, more specifically, the iphone be without Fingerworks?

So are all companies second-rate for acquiring companies to use their IP or just Apple?
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post #110 of 157
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Originally Posted by eadulf View Post

Onhka, You were correct in the post. This decade is six days old. 2010 was the final year of the first decade of the 21st century.

So the first decade of the 21st century had 11 years in it did it? -2000, 01, 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 & 2010???
post #111 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So are all companies second-rate for acquiring companies to use their IP or just Apple?

No one company can come up with 100% of everything. But for the OP, it's a reminder that Apple didn't come up with multi-touch, and for that matter, should have never had a patent granted on it.
post #112 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

No one company can come up with 100% of everything. But for the OP, it's a reminder that Apple didn't come up with multi-touch, and for that matter, should have never had a patent granted on it.

So spearhead sweeping changes to patent law. Until then, live with companies and their use of intellectual property.

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post #113 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

No one company can come up with 100% of everything. But for the OP, it's a reminder that Apple didn't come up with multi-touch, and for that matter, should have never had a patent granted on it.

1) Yes, patents should be granted for this. Its not the concept of using multiple inputs at once. Its how these are implemented.

2) What Fingerworks had was cool, but much like what Xerox PARC had, it wasnt a product until Apple shaped it.

3) A great painter isnt untalented because others have access to that same canvas and paints. Its not the materials, its now you manipulate them that affects the world.
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post #114 of 157
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So spearhead sweeping changes to patent law. Until then, live with companies and their use of intellectual property.

Me? WTF?

Don't you think if Tim Cook had a brain that he should use his companies many billions of resources to do that themselves?

No, of course not. Apple is patenting retarded double taps on their touchscreen for their nano, then finding themselves being sued for a patent on "double click", updated to include taps.

Have fun!
post #115 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Yes, patents should be granted for this. Its not the concept of using multiple inputs at once. Its how these are implemented.

2) What Fingerworks had was cool, but much like what Xerox PARC had, it wasnt a product until Apple shaped it.

3) A great painter isnt untalented because others have access to that same canvas and paints. Its not the materials, its now you manipulate them that affects the world.

And you can implement it in 20 different ways. Apple essentially patented a bunch of computer code.

Or do you think then that patent case against apple for "double tapping" should stand as well?
post #116 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

Or do you think then that patent case against apple for "double tapping" should stand as well?

I believe that all case should stand. Im not a lawyer or judge or jury, and I dont think that any patent should simply not exist or some company should automatically be allowed or disallowed without due process if they are challenged. its silly for you to take such an unwavering stance without knowing even a fraction of the facts.
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post #117 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Possibly, but then you have the following scenario: MS is actively supporting two mobile operating systems, one of which they have to strip down to function within hardware constraints, and one that they're busily adding functionality to. So that maybe they figure out how to run a new version of Office on a new Windows ARM Professional Mobile Edition (or whatever they would call it) but they are also surely working to bring Office functionality to Windows Mobile-- and none of this even touches on the historic problems of Windows in a touch environment.

Plus there won't be any merging of the two, because they derive from different code bases.

So while it's possible that MS intends to launch of "full" Windows for ARM that requires everyone to buy all new apps, that's pretty much a train wreck from a product roadmap perspective, since then you have two incompatible mobile operating systems competing for the same space (and no, just tacking on "Professional" to one set of products doesn't fix that).

that's where the market is going and even on iOS there is some fragmentation. there are separate OS files you download for each device supported with different drivers and feature sets in them

apple spearheaded the way with the iphone and ipad but as the products mature people will want more features in their apps and most of the apps now are nothing more than browser bookmarks or lite versions of desktop apps. which is why they are so cheap. people will demand the products mature.

just like PC's. in 1980 they barely did anything. then came office apps and photoshop and Mac desktop publishing. every year the software matured to where you could run more tasks on it that were previously only possible on mainframes

as things matured we went from command line, to simple GUI overlays, to real GUI and file management and other things. expect the same cycle to be repeated in the mobile space
post #118 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollerborges View Post

A step? MS just announced that they'll introduce copy and paste to Windows Phone 7; a feature that made its way into iOs 19 months ago.

So I think, yeah, it's safe to say they're at least than a step ahead.

And how long did it take c&p to show up in iOS? It wasn't six months after the 1.0 release. Your point is what? Microsoft is doing exactly what Apple did 4 years ago? Apple didn't have that feature 4 years ago and other handsets did. They didn't have MMS and other handsets did. Apple has repeatedly lied about missing features not being compatible so they can sell the next gen iPhone. That's fact.

It's a 1.0 release after admitting they screwed the pooch, they are working very hard and very quickly to add functionality and your example of it inferiority is a feature that took Apple two years to add, in the face of all the headscratching from it's users? Hell, Apple didn't even have MMS added until two years after initial release. If you are going to criticize WP7 you can't ignore the massive amount of time that Apple has taken to introduce features to their mobile OS. Most of those features were widely criticized for not being there and Apples obvious strategy was to release them to coincide with a handset upgrade. Microsoft is behind and they've admitted it but to write them off because they haven't put every feature in day one is absolutely no different than what Apple did on iOS 1.0. They haven't been ahead in the most basic features, not by a long long way.
post #119 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKZ View Post

And how long did it take c&p to show up in iOS? It wasn't six months after the 1.0 release. Your point is what? Microsoft is doing exactly what Apple did 4 years ago? Apple didn't have that feature 4 years ago and other handsets did. They didn't have MMS and other handsets did. Apple has repeatedly lied about missing features not being compatible so they can sell the next gen iPhone. That's fact.

So youre saying they are lying because they eventually showed up? Need I remind you that Apple created a mobile OS from the ground up and that hadnt had any experience with a smartphone OS whereas MS had WinCE with cut/copy/paste for many, many years. The fact that MS is doing "exactly what Apple did 4 years ago and is being able to step in their footprints faster than Apple was able to make them is only proof that Apple is leading the pack. Even now after 2 major version of iOS with cut/copy/paste no other modern mobile OS has implemented a systemwide cut/copy/paste that is even close to as good as Apples implementation. Thats fact.
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post #120 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I believe that all case should stand. Im not a lawyer or judge or jury, and I dont think that any patent should simply not exist or some company should automatically be allowed or disallowed without due process if they are challenged. its silly for you to take such an unwavering stance without knowing even a fraction of the facts.

What facts? The fact that apple patented the sliding lock on their phone, the hold an icon to make them jiggly so as to move them? That's patentable?

What an "invention"; taking the concept of something already done and doing it in software.
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AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › CES: Microsoft keynote underwhelms with few surprises