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Google Android passes Apple's iPhone in total US subscribers - comScore - Page 4

post #121 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post

Finally, solipsism, your graphs are outdated, although they are very nice. Most of the Android devices on them still showed 2.1 as their operating system rather than 2.2, which all of them currently run.

Welcome to the forum.

I made mention of the Android OS changes, but iOS has also been updated. Those graphs are from October from the Samsung Galaxy S review on AnandTech. I was informed that faster HW means faster user experience and that optimizing code doesn’t make a lick of different if you don’t have faster HW. Hence, I showed otherwise. The fact that 2.2 is better optimized just proves my point. I’m sure the latest and next iOS updates will also be better optimized, too.

To reiterate, when using different OSes you can’t simply look at HW specs and say which one will perform better as noted by the graphs above.
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post #122 of 164
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Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post

I've read this site daily for years, and finally I had to register to respond to this thread. My family has owned at least one of every Apple product made in the last decade except for the iPhone (we refuse to use AT&T) and the iPad, and as an Apple enthusiast and stockholder, I hope that the iPhone product line is immensely successful for a long time.

That said, most users of this website have an incredibly skewed view of Android. You all make remarks about the terrible hardware and software of Android phones, and I have to wonder if any of you have ever actually picked one up and used it. The high end Android phones (the ones truly competing with the iPhone) lack nothing with regards to hardware and software quality. My phone, the Droid X, is a truly fantastic piece of technology that deserves nothing but praise from gadget lovers (I have to assume anyone who reads this site falls into that category). The same goes for for the Droid, the Droid 2, the Droid Incredible, the Galaxy S, the Nexus One, the Nexus S, etc. Those devices are wonderful phones that bring a very satisfying user experience across the board. I won't speak for Android devices that are dissimilar from those I just listed since I have never used any.

Now back to some points more relevant to this thread. I'm tired of hearing the argument about the number of Android devices vs. the number of iOS devices. First off, it doesn't matter as long as both operating systems are selling above some critical level. But if to you it does matter, then realize that Android sales are comparable to iPhone sales because they represent all phones running the Android operating system, just as iPhone sales represent all phones running iOS. To say that Android sales numbers are only relevant phone by phone is silly and displays poor logic. Nobody can know that Android wouldn't sell in equal numbers if it were only released on one phone (or iterations thereof), so drop the argument. There's no sound point you can make in contradiction. As far as BOGOs enhancing sales, go to Verizon's website right now, and count the number of Android devices on BOGO; there are two (probably slow sellers at this point). Sales like that are generally used to reduce inventories of older products, so it's unlikely that the phenomenal sales rates of Android devices is due in large part to them.

Finally, solipsism, your graphs are outdated, although they are very nice. Most of the Android devices on them still showed 2.1 as their operating system rather than 2.2, which all of them currently run.

I appreciate what you say -- and I fall into the category of those who have never picked up and used an Android phone (other than a demo in a store)... Guilty as charged. But, as an APPL shareholder, I am quite interested in Apple's competition. I read and watch every bit of content I can find on Android smart phones, the OS itself, the ecosystem, Android tablets, etc.


By the same criteria, you seem to fall into the category of those who have never picked up and used an iPhone -- and, especially, an iPad.

As a user of technology for the last decade, you are really missing a momentous experience -- the iPad -- where not the device, the OS nor the app gets between you and your stuff.

It's not perfect -- but it is orders of magnitude closer to responding to my or your demands on technology.

Someday, every personal technology companion will be like the iPad.

.
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post #123 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

My verizon friend just bought a Droid X due to her old phone finally burning out. They practically gave away the DroidX phone. She didn't have to pay anything for it except just an extra $10/mo for the plan. That kind of gives me an idea about what they're doing.

You can get iPhones free in various parts of the world on contract, so how is that any different?
post #124 of 164
That'll last for about 10 minutes....as soon as Verizon releases the iphone.....BAM! Android will see nuttin but the taillights of the iPhone...oh, and the dust cloud produced.
I think initially some of the sales for a Verizon iPhone will be cannibalized by ship jumpers from AT&T.
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post #125 of 164
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Originally Posted by penchanted View Post

You do realize that the vast majority of iPhone users have no idea of Apple's profitability.

Oil companies, cable companies and cell carriers, yes; handset makers and CE companies, not so much.

It's actually quite funny fact on this forum. A lot of iphone users are bragging about apple's profitability while not thinking that they're actually paying for that. Now, excluding those die hards who will say they will willfully pay more, who wouldn't like to pay less for the same product and still have the SAME product?
To put it differently, if all costs of iphone development, hardware,... all costs are summing up to billion dollars let's say.. and income related to iphone is 1.5 billion dollars. Who in right mind, as user, wouldn't like to pay less so that apple would still spend billion dollars on a product, but only earn 1.25 billions. That wouldn't be a cut in quality, just cut in profits which are way above the industry average.
post #126 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

PC profits are razor thin. Hasn't stopped innovation and new form factors (netbooks) from coming out.

By your rationale, Microsoft should have kept on steamrolling everybody else since they've been banking billions for years.

I'd like to see some more conclusive proof that profitability = innovation.

Exactly. Competition is the one that brings innovation because you have to have your head up in a small pool full of competitors trying the same thing. Innovation is the distinction between them.
post #127 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post

Exactly. Competition is the one that brings innovation because you have to have your head up in a small pool full of competitors trying the same thing. Innovation is the distinction between them.

Sometimes, innovation isnt about technology or usability. For instance, if you look at the PC market youll see that vendors innovated new ways to squeeze out a profit on cheaper and cheaper machines. From the common cheaper sourcing of components and manufacturing, to more clever methods like selling space to crapware makers and using a secret partition on the HDD for the system restore, and everything else in between.
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post #128 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Sometimes, innovation isnt about technology or usability. For instance, if you look at the PC market youll see that vendors innovated new ways to squeeze out a profit on cheaper and cheaper machines. From the common cheaper sourcing of components and manufacturing, to more clever methods like selling space to crapware makers and using a secret partition on the HDD for the system restore, and everything else in between.

Well.. crapware is not the innovation I'm talking about. Just take a look on android lifecycle. It's so short mostly because of competition. Then compare a phone from 2 years ago and now. There is some real innovation inside that process.

That being said, I don't want to bash apple products. I own couple of them myself. It's the philosophy that i am not comfortable with. Of course, company can do whatever they want to do and if the people want to go with it, why not. Just not me regarding the smartphone products.

One has to be quite blind not to recognize the effect that apple brought to the smartphone market. It has raised the smartphone level plateau for a whole level and it definitely affected the UI of android. But to say that no one would do it if apple didn't is just like to say that we wouldn't have smartphones at all if nokia didn't make the first symbian 6-7 years ago and raised the level itself. (BTW... i recently used a nokia and it's sooo waaaay behind both apple and android.. don't know what they're doing).
post #129 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im curious to know why you think its valid to compare a single device to an operating system. I find it hard that anyone on this forum is unable to understand the logistical differences between a free OS licensed to any manufacture and one that only comes with the HW from one manufacture.

I think you'll come around on this one solipsism. When looking at the mobile phone market, of course it is valuable and valid to compare iPhone vs android. Other comparisons are interesting as well, but this one is valid too.
post #130 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im glad you brought up the Samsung Galaxy S as it illustrates my point. Since you seem to think that raw specs are more important than optimized HW and SW Ill use the Galaxy S to illustrate why that is illogical when using disparate OSes.

Again. You are putting words in my mouth. Please go back and read my posts. Where did I ever say that raw specs are more important than a properly optimized system?

I fully acknowledged that iOS is better than Android. I merely suggested this whole meme about Android being vastly inferior is a little overblown. Put a Galaxy S with 2.2 and iPhone 4 in front of someone (and I've done this comparison with friends who have both phones), and I never had an iPhone 4 owner say his phone is significantly faster. A little bit smoother and a tad easier to use? Sure. But the comparisons on this site that make Android sound like utterly unusuable trash as absolutely overblown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Exhibit A: They both have 802.11n so they should be equally as fast because the 802.11n spec is the same regardless. But that isnt the case. In fact, 802.11g on the iPhone is faster than 802.11n on Android phones.

Exhibit B: Its 25% faster yet with page loadings it doesnt look to be 25% faster. This is something the user can feel. This is where youd agrue that you mentioned Android 2.2 which does have an even better JS engine and page loading, but thats optimized code, the point Im making here.


Not using 2.2 is hardly a fair comparison when going up against iOS4. It improved performance over 400%. That's not a minor quibble. Browsing on 2.2 was noticeably faster on my Nexus One. I can only imagine how much it drastically improved performance and perceptions on a Galaxy S. If we're going to continue this debate, can you get more relevant statistics please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Exhibit C: Resulting battery life. This is where power management comes into play. This is important to users even though most dont even realize it. Its one of those odd features that most dont think about until their device is without power. Having faster HW just to keep up with slower HW and optimized code is not good for power efficiency. Think of it this way, you can put a 1000HP engine into a car, but itll still get beaten by a Vespa if you make the car out of bricks, the wheels from wood, and transmission out of straw. Its the whole package that makes it work, not just a single aspect.


You might notice that there are phones that exceed that iPhone on 3G talk while they are well under on the other battery stats. This has to do with CDMA/EV-DO v. GSM/UMTS. Youll notice CDMA-based 2G and 3G talk time are equivalent, but not so with GSM-based 2G and 3G talk time. ven when 3G is activated on a CDMA-based device it still uses 2G for the call. CDMA has a pretty good voice algorithm, and much better than GSM, so this is a benefit for it. The downside being that you cant currently get simultaneous voice and data.

PS: Also note that Galaxy S only has to push 384,000 pixels while the iPhone 4 has to push 614,400 despite the weaker hardware, yet it doesnt seem to do poorly with rendering graphics.

I thought the discussion was about performance and perception. Now you're bringing up battery life?

In any event, you have a valid point. Battery life is is better on iOS. But that's a rather static view of things. With every iteration of Android, battery life is improving, as the platform gets more efficient. But you know as well as I do that it's not just the OS that drains battery. Even if the iPhone 4 has more pixels, the Galaxy S running SAMOLED on a 4inch screen is going to have a bigger power draw. Allowing capabilities like Flash or more flexible multi-tasking also means more of a power draw.

In the end, battery life issues can simply be overcome by having bigger batteries, or replaceable batteries, etc. Just look at the crop of phones coming out now (Atrix 4G for example), which are all raising battery sizes. For the vast majority of customers, if the phone gets them through the day, they really aren't going to care about anything beyond that. Here's a moment where you're playing the raw spec game.

Again, in your Pavlovian reaction to defend all things Apple, you are missing my point. I have not suggested that Android is somehow better than iOS (overall....though I do think there's a lot of things that Android most certainly does better). I am suggesting that Apple is being compelled to step up its game and compete much more ferociously than if it didn't have Android in its rear-view mirror.

Can I provide absolutely specific examples? Not without access to Apple's internal documents. But looking at the technology leap between the original iPhone, iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS and then comparing all those jumps to the leap made by the iPhone 4, it's hard not to feel that this huge a jump was likely caused because of competition. After all, this is a company that leaves features out on purpose (front facing camera on iPad) just so they can sell you next year's version with the missing features you wanted in the first place. Much harder to pull that off when the competition will offer what the customer wants.

Or are you seriously going to suggest that Apple is some kind of miraculous exception that's not susceptible to competitive pressures at all?
post #131 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yeah -- that's the only market I know.

But, even (maybe more so) with unsubsidized phones, how often does the average consumer replace his phone?

Where there's a secondary market (which happens a lot in markets where phones are often sold unlocked or can be easily unlocked), consumers replace their phones quite often.

Again, the USA =/= the world.

I have relatives in India for example, who replace their phones every year or less. The healthy secondary market for handsets often means that the depreciation is not too bad for them to overcome.

It's really only North America where our long contracts and preference for on-contract handsets, that is the exception to the norms. Our practices (and CDMA being so dominant for a long time....not allowing easy resale of handsets) basically prevented the rised of a strong secondary market. Not so elsewhere.
post #132 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexicon5 View Post

That'll last for about 10 minutes....as soon as Verizon releases the iphone.....BAM! Android will see nuttin but the taillights of the iPhone...oh, and the dust cloud produced.
I think initially some of the sales for a Verizon iPhone will be cannibalized by ship jumpers from AT&T.

So because the iPhone launches on one American carrier, growth of the platform in the rest of the world will stop?

Are all Americans really so arrogant and dense as to think that the US market is the only one that matters?

Verizon will be a speed bump for Android.

Take a look at Europe. The iPhone is competing with Android on several carriers. And it's only 1% ahead in marketshare there. Explain that one.

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post #133 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post

Well.. crapware is not the innovation I'm talking about. Just take a look on android lifecycle. It's so short mostly because of competition. Then compare a phone from 2 years ago and now. There is some real innovation inside that process.

That being said, I don't want to bash apple products. I own couple of them myself. It's the philosophy that i am not comfortable with. Of course, company can do whatever they want to do and if the people want to go with it, why not. Just not me regarding the smartphone products.

One has to be quite blind not to recognize the effect that apple brought to the smartphone market. It has raised the smartphone level plateau for a whole level and it definitely affected the UI of android. But to say that no one would do it if apple didn't is just like to say that we wouldn't have smartphones at all if nokia didn't make the first symbian 6-7 years ago and raised the level itself. (BTW... i recently used a nokia and it's sooo waaaay behind both apple and android.. don't know what they're doing).

+1

I will fully acknowledge that Apple raised the bar with the original iPhone. I count that device as revolutionary. Subsequent iPhones not so much. Though I do think there were a few other factors they had going for them. For example, the fact that a lot of original iPhone customers went from a RAZR to an iPhone, I think, probably plays a large part in why many iPhone users think the device is magical. Smartphone users who jumped to an iPhone might find it better, but far less magical. Launching in the US also helped. This is a market where customers weren't sporting Nokia smartphones like they were in Europe at the time. They would have had far less traction, launching in Europe. But all that is to Apple's credit, that they were basically able to popularize smartphones and make them less of a niche product. I count that as revolutionary.

But I agree that it's rather bizarre to suggest that nobody is capable of innovating at all. How is this not innovative for example:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/06/m...dock-hands-on/

This is what I find frustrating about a lot of Apple fanatics. They seem to take the approach that a product is not innovative at all, unless it has an Apple logo on the back. Maybe I just don't get it because I've never been one to be brand loyal on anything I buy. So who knows, maybe I'm the one out of touch?
post #134 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I appreciate what you say -- and I fall into the category of those who have never picked up and used an Android phone (other than a demo in a store)... Guilty as charged. But, as an APPL shareholder, I am quite interested in Apple's competition. I read and watch every bit of content I can find on Android smart phones, the OS itself, the ecosystem, Android tablets, etc.

Given your admission on lack of experience with Android products and your obvious bias (wouldn't help your portfolio to have Apple cast in a negative light), I'd suggest you be a little more reflective and reserved in your comments about the competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

By the same criteria, you seem to fall into the category of those who have never picked up and used an iPhone -- and, especially, an iPad.

Don't assume that everybody is as ignorant as you are. Just because you haven't played with Android devices (and store demos are really limited....I wouldn't count anything less than an hour on somebody's device) doesn't mean other don't have experience with Apple products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

As a user of technology for the last decade, you are really missing a momentous experience -- the iPad -- where not the device, the OS nor the app gets between you and your stuff.

It's not perfect -- but it is orders of magnitude closer to responding to my or your demands on technology.

Someday, every personal technology companion will be like the iPad.

.

I actually think this concept is far more revolutionary (if it catches on):

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/06/m...dock-hands-on/

Imagine never having to synch photos, documents, media, etc. It's all on your phone. And your phone powers whatever device you need.

And they can build the docks quite cheaply. That laptop dock is probably less than $300. And they could probably make a tablet dock for about the same. Imagine just being able to snap in your iPhone and instantly getting an iPad. And then taking that same phone and snapping it into a desktop dock when you are doing some serious productivity stuff or into your TV when you just want to watch videos. Combine that with Hulu and Netflix and you can replace your cable box, Apple TV, etc.
post #135 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

I think you'll come around on this one solipsism. When looking at the mobile phone market, of course it is valuable and valid to compare iPhone vs android. Other comparisons are interesting as well, but this one is valid too.

I will not. OSes should be compared and HW should be compared. As soon as you mix and match HW and SW any relevance flies out the window.

Now, there is value in knowing an ecosystem is strong. For instance, knowing there are 300 hundred thousand apps for your platform is important, but that relative value doesnt change knowing that there are only 100 thousand apps. There are still more than enough to cover nearly all needs that any numerical change alters the value of the ecosystem less and less. We could see this on a parabolic curve.

Its the same thing with trying to measure the validity of free Android OS installation and iPhone HW unit sales. Only if one had very low installations or sales would the ecosystem be affected enough to affect the devices ability to maintain that ecosystem. Since both are selling well into the 10s of millions and growing that point is mooted.
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post #136 of 164
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post

It's actually quite funny fact on this forum. A lot of iphone users are bragging about apple's profitability while not thinking that they're actually paying for that. Now, excluding those die hards who will say they will willfully pay more, who wouldn't like to pay less for the same product and still have the SAME product?

That's because Apple's profitability is not part of their purchase decision; they might even grouse a bit about the price of an Apple product in other threads. I won't try to speak for everyone, but I think I am a pretty typical consumer and the three things that affect my purchase decisions are price, perceived value and availability.

Quote:
To put it differently, if all costs of iphone development, hardware,... all costs are summing up to billion dollars let's say.. and income related to iphone is 1.5 billion dollars. Who in right mind, as user, wouldn't like to pay less so that apple would still spend billion dollars on a product, but only earn 1.25 billions. That wouldn't be a cut in quality, just cut in profits which are way above the industry average.

Of course people would like to pay less - the ATV2 is an example. But, again, the typical consumer is unaware of the manufacturing cost or the company's profitability. They may react negatively to a product's price (which reflects those high margins) and choose something else. For some people, the most important thing is, understandably, price - this is why Walmart does so well. Others are less price sensitive and make their decision based on perceived value.

Apple's strategy appears to be working for them. As an example, what would be the benefit of lowering the iPad price when current production falls short of demand?

When you run a business, you will be free to choose your strategy. I have run several businesses over the years and my prices were never the lowest but my business still prospered even as I watched my lower-priced competitors close up shop.
post #137 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Is Android selling as well on AT&T as on the other US carriers? If it is then I think we can assume your statement is correct. If not, I think its likely youre wrong.

AT&T has the worst Android phones out there. Except for the Captivate (Samsung Galaxy S) and even that one is gimped to prevent installing apps from outside the Android Market. It's only the recently announced 4G phones that are finally as good as the other ones.

I think it's a good bet that a Verizon iPhone will help Verizon a bit and Apple a bit, but will not change much in market share. Apple waited far too long. In the rest of the world, Apple is selling iPhones on multiple carriers and Android phones are still outselling them. Most people who were desperate for the iPhone already switched to AT&T and there may be quite a few frustrated with AT&T that may switch to Verizon. That's not going to increase market share. Market share will only increase with sales to Verizon customers who wanted an iPhone but would not switch to AT&T. Two years ago, there were quite a few of those. Today, not so much. The sales of iPhone 4 last year was a revelation. I expected Apple to outsell Android devices in the third quarter. In spite of it being the best sales ever, Android phones still outsold iPhones by a margin of 2 to 1. I expect iPhones to have a small increase and then business as usual.

I'll be wrong if there really is a severe pent up demand. But I don't think so. We'll know soon enough.
post #138 of 164
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Originally Posted by iStud View Post

But the mac in the 80's never had an installed base of millions of devices as it has now. It was at the time a very very small company, that could not compete against the monopoly of IBM as rammed in by MS (lead by Gates). The situation is very very different now. I don't understand why people fail to see the differences, and just keep parroting the "similarities" without any thought. The field is level, a multibillion company vs a multibillion company, each one with its own strengths and weaknesses. I don't see how this is the 80's "all over again"!

It's true that Apple is not a relatively small company. And that will have some consequences, however I think it's PCs vs Macs again because Apple still has the "My way or the highway" approach and Android is opening up to all comers which by sheer volume will have the same effect. Add to that, that unlike MS, Google actually makes excellent products. While not true for most on this forum, certainly for many including me, Android is far superior to iOS. I know that there are a number of people on this forum who talk about switching to the iPhone when it gets to Verizon. It's anecdotal, but I know no one - not one person, on Verizon who is using Android who will be switching to an iPhone.
post #139 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

1) When we can actually start to see (audited, segment) profit numbers for Google and the handset makers, this type of news will start to make more contextual sense.

2) If I were Android, I'd be deeply worried about the impending arrival of iPhone on Verizon. Growth could start to decelerate fairly dramatically.

I thought Google did not make money directly from Android licensing, but from advertising on search results. So for them, it's all about making sure that the next big trend in web search (mobile web search) goes to Google and keeps them on top. So because both Android and iOS use Google by default, they make money regardless of which OS / device you are using. Why would they worry about iPhone on Verizon, unless the default search engine was switched to Yahoo or Bing?

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post #140 of 164
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Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

What a pity as the first thing she mentioned about her DroidX is how complicated it is to use. She has an iPod touch and loved its simplicity.

I seriously have to ask. What is so complicated about DroidX? Yes, the iPhone is simpler to use (and is more consistent), but Android is hardly more complex if used like the iPhone. It's infinitely more customizable and more powerful - but only if you so chose to use it. I honestly can't figure out why any one would think it's complicated.

My sister was not aware of the Market on her Android phone until I showed it to her 3 months after she had bought it. My friend's wife thought Market was some finance app and never started it. But neither of them had any trouble what so ever, using the phone as it came stock. My sister-in-law switched from the 3GS to an Android phone a few months ago. Last month she switched to a Samsung Galaxy S. She loved how all her contacts, calendar mail etc. just seamlessly transferred to her new phone.

The iPhone is different and with the lack of choice, no doubt, simpler to use right out of the box. But Android is hardly complicated.
post #141 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba View Post

I seriously have to ask. What is so complicated about DroidX? Yes, the iPhone is simpler to use (and is more consistent), but Android is hardly more complex if used like the iPhone. It's infinitely more customizable and more powerful - but only if you so chose to use it. I honestly can't figure out why any one would think it's complicated.

My sister was not aware of the Market on her Android phone until I showed it to her 3 months after she had bought it. My friend's wife thought Market was some finance app and never started it. But neither of them had any trouble what so ever, using the phone as it came stock. My sister-in-law switched from the 3GS to an Android phone a few months ago. Last month she switched to a Samsung Galaxy S. She loved how all her contacts, calendar mail etc. just seamlessly transferred to her new phone.

The iPhone is different and with the lack of choice, no doubt, simpler to use right out of the box. But Android is hardly complicated.

I think you make his case in your anecdotes. A couple things I didnt care for was the inconsistency of cut/copy/paste and the way videos are played.

On the iPhone cut/copy/paste works the exact same way regardless of what app you are in. This was an issue with Android 2.1 and I dont think it was resolved as of 2.3. Then there are playing videos and music. On the iPhone you simply go to the well known iPod app. I couldnt figure out how to upload and play videos on the first Android phone I used.

Then there are vendors that cause inconsistencies for Android-based devices. Different UIs, different button configurations, etc, even within the same vendor across lateral models. With the iPhone its consistent. You have an annual HW and OS stepping, with the new model having a little more than the previous year with iOS support going back 3 years. This 3 years adds a certain level of peace of mind, though its probably out-of-sight/out-of-mind for most unless you have a fairly new Android phone and find out that it wont be getting any future updates from your carrier/vendor. This 3 years of updates also helps with the value of the device which can significantly lower the TCO of that device.

Then there is a confusing system for users who want an app that works on their system. With the iPhone everything is <blank> or later. If you have that phone or a newer one you are fine. You have that version of iOS or a newer you are fine. Cant do that when there are hundreds of handsets on the market for your OS. This is all apps, probably not even most, but its enough that it can be frustrating for the user.
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post #142 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think you make his case in your anecdotes. A couple things I didnt care for was the inconsistency of cut/copy/paste and the way videos are played.

On the iPhone cut/copy/paste works the exact same way regardless of what app you are in. This was an issue with Android 2.1 and I dont think it was resolved as of 2.3.

Can you be more specific? Or give me an example. I never found cut/copy/paste work differently across apps on my Nexus One with 2.2. I am genuinely curious to find this inconsistency you're referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Then there are playing videos and music. On the iPhone you simply go to the well known iPod app. I couldnt figure out how to upload and play videos on the first Android phone I used.

Drag and drop on the computer through USB drive. And all videos (which are visual media) show up in the gallery. Click on them and they play. What's so hard about that?

I chalk this one up to the fact that you are coming from iOS where you are used to thinking of having video and music in one player whereas Android groups visual media (pictures and movies) in one place (the gallery) and puts music in another place. And this is why I always wonder about complaints about "useability". I seriously wonder sometimes if just the fact that you are used to doing it one way and when you go to a system that does it differently, you automatically feel that the new way of doing things is inferior. Learned behaviour makes it very uncomfortable for you to learn something new.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Then there are vendors that cause inconsistencies for Android-based devices. Different UIs, different button configurations, etc, even within the same vendor across lateral models.

Another overblown complaint. I just played my roomie's new Captivate. I use a Nexus One. I had no issues figuring out his handset. He had a few apps that were different. But the core apps were the same and the phone absolutely worked the same way. I am starting to think that people just regurgitate these complaints. Before you repeat this stuff ad nauseam, why don't you actually play with a few different Android phones (and for more than a minute each). You'll quickly see how complaints about 'UI fragmentation' are vastly overblown....and basically irrelevant, since people don't keep switching handsets daily.

As for different buttons configurations....if somebody can't figure out 4 main buttons (home, search, menu, back) which hardly yield that many different configurations, then they shouldn't be using a smartphone period. Does it take a minute to get used to buttons being a different spot? Yes. Does it matter much? Not really. You'll get used to the phone and then it really won't matter after the first minute or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

With the iPhone its consistent. You have an annual HW and OS stepping, with the new model having a little more than the previous year with iOS support going back 3 years. This 3 years adds a certain level of peace of mind, though its probably out-of-sight/out-of-mind for most unless you have a fairly new Android phone and find out that it wont be getting any future updates from your carrier/vendor. This 3 years of updates also helps with the value of the device which can significantly lower the TCO of that device.

This is one area I will give you. The management of updates has to improve on Android. That said, it's not bad for an OS that's only been around 2 years and only taken off in the last one. And I am sure consumers will learn to reward the OEMs that do their best to push updates forward.

Sometimes though, it does make sense to cut off updates. How many iPhone 3G owners really liked iOS 4? And how much restrictions did Apple slap on to make it work on the 3G? Would they have been better off without the updates? Just because you get 3 years of support doesn't always mean it makes sense to give 3 years of updates (especially when the hardware can't support it). The unfortunate part for Android is that the platform advances so rapdily (particularly in the last year) that it's inevitable that some handsets will get left behind. With the update cycle slowing down, I think things will improve markedly. Just look at the version numbers and how quickly Android 2.2 was adopted. Fragmentation will become less and less of an issue over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Then there is a confusing system for users who want an app that works on their system. With the iPhone everything is <blank> or later.

That's quite an assumption. So people who have the original iPhone will have all apps designed for iOS4 work on their phone?


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If you have that phone or a newer one you are fine. You have that version of iOS or a newer you are fine. Cant do that when there are hundreds of handsets on the market for your OS. This is all apps, probably not even most, but its enough that it can be frustrating for the user.

It's not the number of handsets on the OS that matters. It's the version you are on. The market automatically checks which apps work with your phone OS version and only shows you those. How is this very challenging or frustrating?

Now if you are suggesting that every Android owner should be able to download any and every app, I'd ask you how this is any different than suggesting that an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G owner should be allowed to download apps optimized for iOS 4.
post #143 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Can you be more specific? Or give me an example. I never found cut/copy/paste work differently across apps on my Nexus One with 2.2. I am genuinely curious to find this inconsistency you're referring to.

I recall not being able to do any copy/paste in Gmail and in other apps. I recall inconsistencies with the way you select in the browser. For instance, not being able to select and copy text unless it was a text box or first choosing Menu » More » Select instead of the press and hold method already present. How can you suggest that is a consistent method?

Quote:
Drag and drop on the computer through USB drive. And all videos (which are visual media) show up in the gallery. Click on them and they play. What's so hard about that?

That method worked out so well for the PMP market that even at reduced prices the iPod was able to monopolized the market. BTW, the idea that the way to find all videos are in the Gallery is absurd. That is not a good name for your PMP media.

Quote:
I chalk this one up to the fact that you are coming from iOS where you are used to thinking of having video and music in one player whereas Android groups visual media (pictures and movies) in one place (the gallery) and puts music in another place. And this is why I always wonder about complaints about "useability". I seriously wonder sometimes if just the fact that you are used to doing it one way and when you go to a system that does it differently, you automatically feel that the new way of doing things is inferior. Learned behaviour makes it very uncomfortable for you to learn something new.

Android groups are a lot newer and smaller than iPod groups. Again, Apple won the PMP market because of the iTunes ecosystem, not because their HW was any better or cheaper. Having to mount as USB drive, then drag and drop items into the Gallery folder is not user friendly. The problem with hardcore Android users is they think options equals freedom equals better but most people want a device that simply works. There is a reason lumberjacks dont use a Swiss Army Knife to fell trees. But it has a saw and all these other tools. Youre saw is only one tool. See how silly that sounds? The best tool for the job is usually the one that works best, not the one with the most options.

Quote:
Another overblown complaint. I just played my roomie's new Captivate. I use a Nexus One. I had no issues figuring out his handset. He had a few apps that were different. But the core apps were the same and the phone absolutely worked the same way. I am starting to think that people just regurgitate these complaints. Before you repeat this stuff ad nauseam, why don't you actually play with a few different Android phones (and for more than a minute each). You'll quickly see how complaints about 'UI fragmentation' are vastly overblown....and basically irrelevant, since people don't keep switching handsets daily.

As for different buttons configurations....if somebody can't figure out 4 main buttons (home, search, menu, back) which hardly yield that many different configurations, then they shouldn't be using a smartphone period. Does it take a minute to get used to buttons being a different spot? Yes. Does it matter much? Not really. You'll get used to the phone and then it really won't matter after the first minute or so.

Usability has no barring on how quickly you can adapt. Most people arent quick to adapt to change. I dont think a different button order or a different UI is a big deal and Ill judge each independently for their pros and cons, but were not the masses. Being a member of a tech site pretty much excludes from that. Consistency offers peace of mind. That is good business.

Quote:
This is one area I will give you. The management of updates has to improve on Android. That said, it's not bad for an OS that's only been around 2 years and only taken off in the last one. And I am sure consumers will learn to reward the OEMs that do their best to push updates forward.

The original iPhone had 3 years of rich updates. Yet how many of the Android-based phones from just two years ago have version 2.3. I think one (maybe two) is shipping with 2.3. Hasnt that been out on the Samsung Galaxy S since December? Again, consistency is key and Apple had iOS 4.0 for the new iPhone and the two previous years at the same time. Now, many iPhone 3G devices took ill with iOS 4.0 and that affected user trust with Apples update, but thats a different issue with consistency.

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The unfortunate part for Android is that the platform advances so rapdily (particularly in the last year) that it's inevitable that some handsets will get left behind.

You really think the Sony Xperia X10 with Android 2.1 released last October shouldnt get any furthr Android updates because Android is moving so fast? Id love for you to tell an Xperia user that.

Quote:
With the update cycle slowing down, I think things will improve markedly. Just look at the version numbers and how quickly Android 2.2 was adopted. Fragmentation will become less and less of an issue over time.

No it wont. There will be even more devices using Android and they will be cheaper and cheaper devices using it. I suspect that even the dumbest phones on the market will eventually using Android en masse. The HW is advancing while getting cheaper and Android offers too many benefits to vendors to ignore. The issue will get worse.

Now for modern smartphones I think you have a point. I think those will get longer update cycles, but those wont be the biggest market for Android, theyll just be the flagship models from vendors.

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That's quite an assumption. So people who have the original iPhone will have all apps designed for iOS4 work on their phone?

Do you not realize the original iPhone doesnt have iOS 4.0? Perhaps you misunderstood that or later means newer, not older. I can see how that could be ambiguous if the context was missed.

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It's not the number of handsets on the OS that matters. It's the version you are on. The market automatically checks which apps work with your phone OS version and only shows you those. How is this very challenging or frustrating?

So youre saying that all devices that run Android v2.2 can play the same apps? No. Angry Birds is a great example of how this is just not the case. Angry Birds is also a great example of how having a health number of apps and units with your OS by number isnt necessarily a great if your cost for development is higher and your number of actual sales is lower. This is business, so some singled out metric does not prove profitability.

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Now if you are suggesting that every Android owner should be able to download any and every app, I'd ask you how this is any different than suggesting that an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G owner should be allowed to download apps optimized for iOS 4.

I already stated this. I think I was clear about a user who has a 4 year old iPhone isnt going to expect a new app to work as much as someone who has a new Android-based smartphone, and how Apples annual, in-line update system makes it easier for users. The Sony Xperia X10 is a prime example of this.
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post #144 of 164
This is a bit off-topic but is meant as a serious inquiry.

I know that Android 3.0 is advertised as being the first tablet-ready version of Android. I am also assuming that Android v3 will become available for Android phones. Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?
post #145 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchanted View Post

This is a bit off-topic but is meant as a serious inquiry.

I know that Android 3.0 is advertised as being the first tablet-ready version of Android. I am also assuming that Android v3 will become available for Android phones. Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?

Thats a good question. Most phones I saw were going to be shipped with Android v2.2 and I cant recall any mention of Android 3.0 coming to those phones and only a little mention of 2.3. Google promo ad said it was designed for tablets. That tells me that phones will come later. I dont even recall a due date for Honeycomb.
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post #146 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Thats a good question. Most phones I saw were going to be shipped with Android v2.2 and I cant recall any mention of Android 3.0 coming to those phones and only a little mention of 2.3. Google promo ad said it was designed for tablets. That tells me that phones will come later. I dont even recall a due date for Honeycomb.

The Motorola XOOM is supposed to run Honeycomb as I recall. Really makes you wonder how close they are to a real product. I'm guessing we will see Honeycomb in March or April.
post #147 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchanted View Post

Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?

Will be upgradeable o will be upgraded?

As far as I know, anything like or above Nexus One can be upgraded to Honeycomb
post #148 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotSteveJobs View Post

iOs will never have as many applications, because Apple has a moral responsibility to curate their user's experience. There's plenty of porn on Android, so right there there's lots more Android software. But iOS software is much higher quality and has higher moral standards.

If people want porn, they can buy an Android phone. Theres a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, and your kids can download porn. That's the reality of Android.

Android Market has NO porn.
post #149 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I recall not being able to do any copy/paste in Gmail and in other apps. I recall inconsistencies with the way you select in the browser. For instance, not being able to select and copy text unless it was a text box or first choosing Menu » More » Select instead of the press and hold method already present. How can you suggest that is a consistent method?

Seems consistent to me. You're always using the same method to copy and paste. One for text boxes. One for the browser (which is kinda like how you would select text on a desktop browser). The issue is that there's no copy/paste for other apps (Just gmail) as of now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That method worked out so well for the PMP market that even at reduced prices the iPod was able to monopolized the market.

You know as well as I do that it was the clickwheel and the iTMS that helped sell iPods. How videos were put on had very little to do with it. Most people (except hardcore Apple fans) fine iTunes to be a pain in the six.

And it's literally drag and drop. You don't even have to pick a folder. Just drop onto the drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

BTW, the idea that the way to find all videos are in the Gallery is absurd. That is not a good name for your PMP media.

I disagree. Again, I think it's an issue of what you are used to. If you had never used an iPhone, then you wouldn't think this strange. Not just that...Android doesn't have a media app a la iTunes. The music player is surprisingly called....Music. You would expect it to play music and not videos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Android groups are a lot newer and smaller than iPod groups. Again, Apple won the PMP market because of the iTunes ecosystem, not because their HW was any better or cheaper.

Right. So quit suggesting that how you put the video on the device helped the iPod win the PMP war. That's just absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Having to mount as USB drive, then drag and drop items into the Gallery folder is not user friendly.

That's your opinion. There's tons of folks and everyday users that find iTunes a pain. They'd find drag and drop fairly sensible. Different strokes for different folks.

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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The problem with hardcore Android users is they think options equals freedom equals better but most people want a device that simply works.

And the problem with Apple fans is that they think the only right way is the Apple way. Their blinders are so thick that they can conceive that people might not think the Apple way is the best.

Do you use iTunes to load up your USB stick? Why would loading up your phone be any more or less challenging? You don't have to sort out folders or anything. You literally just drop whatever you want onto the phone and the players finds it for you.

And what the hell does this have to do with "options" and "freedom". We're just discussing how something works. Why do you insist or resorting to generic anti-Android crap every second paragraph?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


There is a reason lumberjacks dont use a Swiss Army Knife to fell trees. But it has a saw and all these other tools. Youre saw is only one tool. See how silly that sounds?

About as silly as bringing lumberjacks into a discussion about how a piece of technology works....


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Usability has no barring on how quickly you can adapt.

Actually it does. Something that's easier to learn is easier to adapt to. Work a job that's high stress and/or involves high man-machine interactions and you'll see this. Certainly in my line of work (the aerospace sector) we see improved UI in the cockpits drastically improving aircrew training (shortening training times, improving safety, etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Most people arent quick to adapt to change. I dont think a different button order or a different UI is a big deal and Ill judge each independently for their pros and cons, but were not the masses. Being a member of a tech site pretty much excludes from that. Consistency offers peace of mind. That is good business.

At the end of the day, it's a smartphone, not a new way to drive a car. I think you misjudge people's ability to adapt. Most touchcreen phones have basically the same gestures for most functions. And most folks rarely get to any serious depth beyond very basic app use....read on browser, navigate on maps, send and receive texts and emails, use a few other apps. I am even going to suggest for example that most smartphone users rarely use features like copy/paste...this is why it wasn't a big deal when the iPhone didn't have it. This is why I don't think it's that's challenging for most people to adapt. I think the biggest challenge is overcoming learned behaviour. Whenever, I play with an iPhone, I find myself reaching for a hard back button. Yet, I'm fine with an iPad...because I have no learned behaviour for a tablet, so I'm actually looking out for what I'm doing. I'm sure an iPhone user who plays with my phone will be looking for ye giant home button in everything they do.

In any event, the basic UI does remain consistent across phones. Android does work the same across phones and even versions. It's some of the features (Flash in 2.2 for example) and apps that might change as you go to different phones.

I'd agree that a little more consistency might help. But I have no issues with companies trying to build brand loyalty by trying to make their products better by adding exclusive features. Not really any different than Apple selling its ecosystem. The only thing is that Android actually allows you to stay in the ecosystem while switching brands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The original iPhone had 3 years of rich updates. Yet how many of the Android-based phones from just two years ago have version 2.3. I think one (maybe two) is shipping with 2.3. Hasnt that been out on the Samsung Galaxy S since December?

I agree with this point. Though if you look at how far Android has come in two years, I'd suggest it's a good thing. If Android's hardware two years ago was predicated on running the software of today, the handsets would have been astronomically expensive. Conversely, if the software had to be backwards compatible for phones from two years ago, the software development cycle would have been severely limited. But, like I said earlier, with the software update cycle slowing down and hardware development catching up, this is likely to be less of an issue. I doubt the high end Androids you get today won't make it through two years of updates.

That said, hats off to Apple. Of course, when you do both, you can sync up the cycle better. But it also means things like leaving out video chat till the 4th generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


Again, consistency is key and Apple had iOS 4.0 for the new iPhone and the two previous years at the same time. Now, many iPhone 3G devices took ill with iOS 4.0 and that affected user trust with Apples update, but thats a different issue with consistency.

That's not really 3 years of updates then, is it? If HTC tried to put Froyo on a G1 you'd be pointing and laughing and gleefully point out how the hardware wasn't built for it. But Apple puts out a bad update and it's a "different issue"? Gimme a break. The iPhone 3G shouldn't have gotten the update period. They tried to shoehorn an update in because they want to be able to say, "We give you updates."


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You really think the Sony Xperia X10 with Android 2.1 released last October shouldnt get any furthr Android updates because Android is moving so fast? Id love for you to tell an Xperia user that.

And that's why I didn't get an X10. ;-)

Again. It's upto consumers to penalize them. If I was an SE customer right now, I'd be hopping mad. And most certainly, I won't be buying an SE product for a long time...until they can show that they care about updates.

And the phone came out in March. Not October.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


No it wont. There will be even more devices using Android and they will be cheaper and cheaper devices using it. I suspect that even the dumbest phones on the market will eventually using Android en masse. The HW is advancing while getting cheaper and Android offers too many benefits to vendors to ignore. The issue will get worse.

Now for modern smartphones I think you have a point. I think those will get longer update cycles, but those wont be the biggest market for Android, theyll just be the flagship models from vendors.

I disagree. Yesterday's top of the line model is midrange today and low end tomorrow. And for most people that's good enough. I think at some point when it comes to the low end, we'll be hitting a fairly solid low end base spec. And that'll probably about the level of a Nexus One in a year. So I think you'll find in a year's time that the vast majority of phones are on 2.2 (the first real version that I think is decently usable for the average person) and that there's a nice steady distribution towards the newer version.

I think you'll even find the hardware for the low end come up. More capacitve, less resistive touch. Etc. And even the definition of low end will change. In North America, given our penchant for on-contract deals, the 'low-end' can be pretty deceiving.

In any event though, I find this debate a bit strange. I consider it a good thing that Android is enabling a lot of ordinary people who would normally not aspire to a smartphone, to be able to get one. The people who buy a $150 Huawei, are not customers who would normally consider an iPhone anyway. So really, if we're talking about Apple vs. Android in the smartphone contest, it should really be restricted to debate at the upper end....the handsets that are competitive with the iPhone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


So youre saying that all devices that run Android v2.2 can play the same apps? No. Angry Birds is a great example of how this is just not the case.

Did Angry Birds have issues running on 2.2 phones? I thought the issue was running on lower version handsets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Angry Birds is also a great example of how having a health number of apps and units with your OS by number isnt necessarily a great if your cost for development is higher and your number of actual sales is lower. This is business, so some singled out metric does not prove profitability.

I really do believe the app sales issue will change. For three reason. First, there really wasn't a lot of good apps on Android until very recently. Nobody wants to pay for crap. Next, there's the issue of discoverability. Where's that web portal that Google promised? They are way behind here. Finally, there's the payment issue. Using only Google Checkout and now Paypal has its limitations. That and you can only buy paid apps in a handful of countries. When these issues are addressed, app sales will take off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I already stated this. I think I was clear about a user who has a 4 year old iPhone isnt going to expect a new app to work as much as someone who has a new Android-based smartphone, and how Apples annual, in-line update system makes it easier for users. The Sony Xperia X10 is a prime example of this.

Again. I have never rushed out to state that Android is superior to iOS. I merely think it's not all that bad an alternative as some on here make it out to be. Maybe not for you. But it's obviously decent enough for millions of people out there. I think we can put to bed the argument we saw a few months ago that Android was only for techie geeks. There's obviously lots of regular people who find Android quite palatable.

Personally, I always advise people to try everything with an open mind and buy what works for them. For me, the key reasons I use Android: widgets, good integration with GMail, free navigation and most importantly let's me use the network I want (where for $40 I get unlimited north america wide talk and MMS, unlimited data, unlimited global texting). For me the iPhone is not even in contention till they are willing to offer it on the network I'm on. No way I'd see my bill rise to $100 for half the plan features. And after the network, if the iPhone matched those other features I would readily consider switching over. Heck, I actually do love the look of the iPhone 4 (never liked the previous versions that much though). It's always how I've thought a phone should look. But yeah, I have plenty of friends who pay triple digit bills to sport iPhones. Good for them I say. Somebody has to keep the Big 3 networks in business in Canada! I sure hope the iPhone user experience is good enough to overcome the restrictions on daytime minutes and the data caps.
post #150 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotSteveJobs View Post

iOs will never have as many applications, because Apple has a moral responsibility to curate their user's experience. There's plenty of porn on Android, so right there there's lots more Android software. But iOS software is much higher quality and has higher moral standards.

If people want porn, they can buy an Android phone. Theres a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, and your kids can download porn. That's the reality of Android.

There's porn on the internet. You can download nothing but porn off the internet. You can download porn, and you kids can dowload porn off the internet. That's the reality of iOS. That's the reality of any internet connected device.

And there's no actual porn in the Android market. There are apparently apps for porn websites. But I fail to see how having the app is any better or worse than actually accessing the site on your browser....which if you have Flash is possible.

And that is what Steve Jobs was referring to (which somehow got twisted over time to Android = Porn). That line of thinking is a lot like saying dancing leads to sex. Just cause you have Flash, doesn't mean you'll surf porn. For example, I used Flash last summer with regularity to watch World Cup matches on my phone from the CBC website. And I suspect it's that flexibility which Jobs detests. Who needs an app when you can serve up video on the webpage using Flash? And if there's no apps, then there's really not much differentiating iOS from every other platform is there?
post #151 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think you make his case in your anecdotes. A couple things I didnt care for was the inconsistency of cut/copy/paste and the way videos are played.

On the iPhone cut/copy/paste works the exact same way regardless of what app you are in. This was an issue with Android 2.1 and I dont think it was resolved as of 2.3. Then there are playing videos and music. On the iPhone you simply go to the well known iPod app. I couldnt figure out how to upload and play videos on the first Android phone I used.

Then there are vendors that cause inconsistencies for Android-based devices. Different UIs, different button configurations, etc, even within the same vendor across lateral models. With the iPhone its consistent. You have an annual HW and OS stepping, with the new model having a little more than the previous year with iOS support going back 3 years. This 3 years adds a certain level of peace of mind, though its probably out-of-sight/out-of-mind for most unless you have a fairly new Android phone and find out that it wont be getting any future updates from your carrier/vendor. This 3 years of updates also helps with the value of the device which can significantly lower the TCO of that device.

Then there is a confusing system for users who want an app that works on their system. With the iPhone everything is <blank> or later. If you have that phone or a newer one you are fine. You have that version of iOS or a newer you are fine. Cant do that when there are hundreds of handsets on the market for your OS. This is all apps, probably not even most, but its enough that it can be frustrating for the user.

Cut/Copy/Paste works exactly the same way in all app in data entry fields. There is no cut/copy/paste in text. BTW, I find it incredibly annoying on the iPad that a slight movement of my finger on text starts selecting text. You might say that having cut/copy/paste work on text is better and I'd agree. But there is no inconsistency there.

I have said this plenty of times and I'll repeat - I find iTunes to be an absolute piece of crap. It's not a plus, but a severe negative in my book. I bought my iPad apps using the app store on the iPad.

Although I have been using the iPod for close to a decade now, I found the music player in my iPod Touch to be less usable than the one in my Samsung Vibrant. I just sold my iPod Touch, so I can't get into the specifics. But I recall playing music in shuffle mode and then getting information on some song took me to a screen with songs from the album and then it switched to playing songs only on that album.

I simply can't get go back to not having the search button or the back button or the menu button. I don't see why long press and menu is confusing? Long Press is the context sensitive button (button 2 of the mouse). Menu is the menu bar. Sometimes I find myself looking at strange icons on some iPhone app trying to figure out what it does. The Menu button shows me text. When I have to go back to my previous screen - and it could be from a completely different app (thanks to Intents and Activities), I always have the same back button for navigation. On iPhones, I have to always hunt around to find it. In most apps thankfully, it's on the top left. But not all apps. Again, inconsistency.

Add to this, replacement keyboards like Swype and SwiftKey, Notification bar, widgets, Gesture search for lookup using the more intuitive drawing on screens as opposed to scrolling up and down in inertial lists, I find the Android UX far superior to the iPhone one. But then, I'm a power user.

I certainly won't deny that overall, iPhone apps are much much more consistent and so it the OS. But I'm not convinced that the gap is all that big. At least certainly not enough for anyone to say Android's complicated.

As far as lack of OS upgrades is concerned, that is mostly chaffing for more knowledgeable users. Most users couldn't care less. They use the phone with the apps that came with it. When they go to the Market, they see only the apps that run on their phone. I don't why so many people on this site think that you download apps and then find that they don't run on your phone. In two years that I have been using the Android, I have yet to download an app that doesn't work on my phone (apart from a bug of course).

I don't follow why the fact that the 4 keys are in different positions is an issue for someone getting a new phone. Once you have a new phone, you typically stay with it at least for a few months and if you switch from one Android phone to another, it might take a few minutes to use it. But that is the beauty of Android since you discover something new, something great because another manufacturer has found a better way to do something. At least I presume that's why one went and got another phone anyway.

I have used both the iPhone and now 3 Android phones. And for me, there is no comparison, I can never go back to an iPhone. I no longer have the iPod Touch. I may get another one or just go with an EVO as a multimedia device (I can get one for $200). I still have the iPad. But I hardly ever use. It's just too crippled for me. I haven't yet found a replacement for it though and it serves my need for transferring photos when I'm out of town and until something better comes along, I'll use it for that purpose.

What I'm getting at is that, I use Apple products as well as Android and I'm undoubtedly biased towards Android now. For me, it just works :-)
post #152 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im curious to know why you think its valid to compare a single device to an operating system. I find it hard that anyone on this forum is unable to understand the logistical differences between a free OS licensed to any manufacture and one that only comes with the HW from one manufacture.

Much as I am concerned, I am considering them smartphone platforms, thus iPhones (or iOS phones) vs. Android phones.

iPads and iPods, while using same OS, are not phones. Likewise, I wouldn't consider emerging Android tablets into this specific comparison.

And I wouldn't call iPhone single phone either. 3Gs is still being sold, and there are 3G units still in use. Plus some of them have 6, 16, 32GB variants... Memory, screen and rest of hardware differences between 3G, 3Gs and 4 options are not much smaller/different than Android phones differences.

True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".
post #153 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".

But likely still making the most money even as it "loses".
post #154 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Much as I am concerned, I am considering them smartphone platforms, thus iPhones (or iOS phones) vs. Android phones.

iPads and iPods, while using same OS, are not phones. Likewise, I wouldn't consider emerging Android tablets into this specific comparison.

And I wouldn't call iPhone single phone either. 3Gs is still being sold, and there are 3G units still in use. Plus some of them have 6, 16, 32GB variants... Memory, screen and rest of hardware differences between 3G, 3Gs and 4 options are not much smaller/different than Android phones differences.

True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".

1) Those are models within the iPhone product. Some unilaterally, others upgrades, but they are still the iPhone product from ONE vendor.

2) You mention the NAND capacity but that doesnt affect the iOS for the model. All iPhone 4 models get the same version of iOS. All iPhone 3GS models, etc.

3) Again, why compare the iPhone to Android OS? What is the reason for wanting to compare mobile OS platforms that makes the exclusion of the iPod Touch a requirement?
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #155 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

In other news sales of Aston martin have been surpassed by fiat. Funny thing is that Aston martin's profit margin appears to be higher...

Ps. If we are talking os, do these figures include all iOS installs including iPad iPod touch and iPhone?

Irrespective, Market share does not equal success, quality or profitability. Popular is not defined by the number of products given away or cheaply available, massive Market share normally means an affordable or compromise product. The popular choice is what you aspire to own.

Sine when have apple equated success with Market share, and since when does larger Market share reflect succes, quality or user experience?

That is one very wrong comparison. While AM's profit margin should be much higher than Fiat's, AM was more than once in financial troubles and was purchased by Ford just to be sold a few years later (not being profitable enough?). On the other hand, cheap Fiat Group automotive companies include Ferrari, Maserati, Abarth, Alfa Romeo Automobiles, Lancia Automobiles... among the others.

Honestly, I'd rather be Fiat. There's nothing wrong with their Ferraris.
post #156 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchanted View Post

But likely still making the most money even as it "loses".

No one is arguing that. I can't recall anyone said Apple is doomed because Android phones are selling more. You don't need to have major market share to be successful luxury brand.
post #157 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Those are models within the iPhone product. Some unilaterally, others upgrades, but they are still the iPhone product from ONE vendor.

You are talking about smartphone brands. I am talking about smartphone platforms.

Quote:
2) You mention the NAND capacity but that doesnt affect the iOS for the model. All iPhone 4 models get the same version of iOS. All iPhone 3GS models, etc.

I am talking about NAND capacity, different screen resolutions, different CPU/GPU. It is true you can force one iOS on most them (though barely on 3G and not at all on 2G, I think?) but one phone they are not. One brand (and one platform), on the other hand, they are.

Quote:
3) Again, why compare the iPhone to Android OS? What is the reason for wanting to compare mobile OS platforms that makes the exclusion of the iPod Touch a requirement?

I see it like comparing passenger cars with diesel engines and passenger cars with petrol engines. Someone might rise a hand and say "well why don't we count petrol motorbikes as well - they are using same (technology) engines like petrol cars. True we can compare engine technologies which should involve motorbikes (but also diesel trucks and locomotives etc.) but if we are comparing passenger cars with diesel and petrol engines, we have a bit tighter focus and we cannot include bikes and other vehicles/machines with petrol or diesel engines. Likewise, I don't mind comparing mobile OS platforms as well... but here we are comparing smartphone platforms. iOS is one smartphone platform. Android is the other.
post #158 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

No one is arguing that. I can't recall anyone said Apple is doomed because Android phones are selling more. You don't need to have major market share to be successful luxury brand.

Glad you understand that because there are plenty of others around here who seem to think that Android having greater marketshare somehow dooms Apple and iPhone.
post #159 of 164
Solipsism,

We've deviated from my original point of debate into the generic Android vs. iOS back and forth.

My original point was that competition was good and I personally see that evidenced by how much of a leap the iPhone 4/iOS4 is over the iPhone3GS/iOS3 was.

You are free to disagree, of course. But I do feel that Apple is susceptible to competitive pressures and that Android breathing down its neck helps both Android (which feels a constant pressure to catch up) and Apple (which must work hard to stay in the lead). In the end, this is good for us, the consumers.

Like I said earlier, to each his own. For a desktop, I love my Mac. For a mobile, I like Android. I'm still deciding which way to go on the tablet front. I want to see what iPad 2 has to offer before I commit to anything. I would hope that most people approach things this way instead of blindly committing to one brand for everything. But again, to each his own.
post #160 of 164
I urge all of you to watch this interview:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/07/e...honeycomb-tab/

I think there's certainly evidence there that Google is aware of Android's UX flaws and I expect they'll be working to fix them. Especially with this guy in the driver's seat.
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