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Gifford shooting - Page 2

post #41 of 286
Found this comment on another forum posted by someone in the US from Saudi Arabia:

Quote:
As a Saudi Arabian I'd like to provide an interesting perspective.

The religious establishment here has taken a lot of heat, and rightly so. Seems that much of it is always so complacent in all matters concerning the extremist violent Islamic agenda. Some would even say complicit. In their rhetoric they are always very creative in signalling out the "bad guys" and stopping short at saying, "go get'em!" You'd be hard-pressed to find any reasonable person proposing that they have amply condemned that agenda as much as they ought.

In the US you have the exact same rhetoric, and the people with whom this rhetoric resonates adopt the same thought modalities as "terrorist sympathizers" here, i.e. their group "has been wronged repeatedly and is actually very misunderstood."

The only difference between the two is that globally almost everyone recognizes the nefariousness of the first group but not the second. Those who minimize it or pretend it doesn't exist only serve to exacerbate the problem. Take it from someone who's seen what this eventually develops into: it only gets worse. The longer you pretend as a society that this doesn't exist or that it's irrelevant/harmless or should be accommodated or whatever, the harder it will be to deal with it later.

Just my two cents.

Very, very astute observation.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #42 of 286
US v Jared Lee Loughner
5 Counts...Feds move fast.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #43 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

US v Jared Lee Loughner
5 Counts...Feds move fast.

Well, someone important was killed and/or wounded.

Question: Why is "attempting to kill a member of Congress" different from simply "attempting to kill a normal, average member of society?"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #44 of 286
Because it's two crimes in one. It's killing a person. It's also an act meant to intimidate an entire group of people, threatening further violence unless a segment of society shuts their mouths.

It's the same reasoning behind hate crime legislation, which you of course vehemently discount. Kill a gay person because you wanted his wallet, that's murder. Kill a gay person because you wanted to send a message to the gay community that it isn't safe to be gay, that's an additional crime beyond the murder.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #45 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's the same reasoning behind hate crime legislation...

That's what I figured. So the lives of some people in society are more valuable than others. Got it. Thanks.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #46 of 286
You ignored the point again, mister snarkmonster. It has nothing to do with valuing some lives more than others.

There are two crimes in a hate crime:

Murder/Assault/Whatnot
Intimidation of a group through threats of further violence

It's not that fucking hard to understand. Attacking someone who happens to be gay is not a hate crime. Attacking someone BECAUSE he is gay is.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #47 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It has nothing to do with valuing some lives more than others.

Of course it does. I mean you can hide this behind all sorts of so-called "reasoning" that makes it seem like that's not what's going on, but...yes that's exactly what's happening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Attacking someone BECAUSE he is gay is.

So it's thought crime then. Thanks. That helps.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #48 of 286
No, it doesn't.

Is threatening violence against an entire group of people a crime? Answer that question.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #49 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, it doesn't.

Sure it does. But I understand you need to rationalize it with all manner of tenuous "reasoning" that makes it not seem that way.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #50 of 286
Since you won't address the entirety of my posts and are just snipping little tidbits to make smartass repetitive comments, you can go do something distasteful with a sack of medical waste. I'm done with you.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #51 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

...you can go do something distasteful with a sack of medical waste...

Thanks for showing us how to engage in civilized, reasoned discussion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #52 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Question: Why is "attempting to kill a member of Congress" different from simply "attempting to kill a normal, average member of society?"

US Congress members, their staff, US Fed Judges are Federal employees and crimes against them are Federal crimes. Murder generally is a state crime except when it is a Federal employee.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...1----000-.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/71...0_I_20_51.html
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #53 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

US Congress members, their staff, US Fed Judges are Federal employees and crimes against them are Federal crimes. Murder generally is a state crime except when it is a Federal employee.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...1----000-.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/71...0_I_20_51.html

I don't think you got the essence of my question. BR did though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #54 of 286
Shooting prompts legislation to protect lawmakers, officials:

Quote:
Rep. Robert Brady, D-Pennsylvania, said he will introduce legislation making it a federal crime for a person to use language or symbols that could be perceived as threatening or inciting violence against a Member of Congress or federal official.


Lawmakers rethink security after Arizona shooting:

Quote:
Lawmakers are weighing the benefit of accessibility with the necessity of security in the aftermath of a shooting at a political meet-and-greet outside an Arizona supermarket.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #55 of 286
Thread Starter 
This is almost too appalling to post, but it's nonetheless relevant and more importantly highlights how hate can often cause harm to someone's very own cause inadvertently-

"Westboro Baptist Church, the Topeka church known for its inflammatory anti-gay protests, plans to picket the funerals of the six people gunned down in Arizona on Saturday.
In a flier posted on its web site, the controversial church writes, "THANK GOD FOR THE SHOOTER -- 6 DEAD!"

In graphic language, it continues:



"Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you!"
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_806319.html
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #56 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

This looks bad- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_806243.html


I wonder what Sarah Palin's thoughts are? This in the Guardian-

"Palin had published a "target map" on her website using images of gun sights to identify 20 House Democrats, including Giffords, for backing the new health care law. At an event in 2009 which was similar to the one Giffords was holding today, a protester was removed by police when his pistol fell to the supermarket floor."
~http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...tucson-arizona

Sarah Palin has not yet offered an apology.


I'll tell you what nearly drives ME to violence: Reading shit like this, where "the right wing" is blamed for this complete nut job. Oh, and by the way, Daily Kos had the SAME kind of fucking target list.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=249273
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #57 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The conservative silence is deafening. Not even a "man, that's terrible. Assassination of democratically elected political leaders no matter how much you disagree with them is wrong."

Note, Gifford also had someone in attendance at a town hall meeting a year ago drop a gun. Furthermore, her glass front door of her Tuscon office was smashed in 9 months ago. There's been a pattern of intimidation and violence against her.

Fuck off. Everyone is horrified at this.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #58 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If I produced a blog with a "target map" of Republicans I am critical of, do you not think I might get some attention from the secret service? How about when people on my "target map" start getting shot/killed? Why does Palin get a pass on this?

And I agree, BR's post didn't make sense. But I think he was referring to non-politician Republicans. Look at news boards, and with a few exceptions, pretty much all the self-declared conservatives or Republicans are either staying silent on this or criticizing Liberals for blaming this tragedy on politics.

Kos had their OWN FUCKING MAP. THE EXACT SAME THING. You absolutely disgust me.

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #59 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

This looks bad- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_806243.html


I wonder what Sarah Palin's thoughts are? This in the Guardian-

"Palin had published a "target map" on her website using images of gun sights to identify 20 House Democrats, including Giffords, for backing the new health care law. At an event in 2009 which was similar to the one Giffords was holding today, a protester was removed by police when his pistol fell to the supermarket floor."
~http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...tucson-arizona

Sarah Palin has not yet offered an apology.

You're ignorant. Of course the left here would use this tragic shooting to score political points. But your ignorance is that Palin's "target map" was using map registration marks and not "gun sights" to point out locations.

You should apologize immediately.
post #60 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

That's rich coming from you.

Perhaps you could answer the points I made, or at least point out a single thread I've started here that takes a similar type of tragedy and milks it for partisan political gain.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #61 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

You're ignorant. Of course the left here would use this tragic shooting to score political points. But your ignorance is that Palin's "target map" was using map registration marks and not "gun sights" to point out locations.

You should apologize immediately.

This makes you a huge fucking liar. YOU apologize.

http://twitter.com/SarahPalinUSA/status/29677744457

In Sarah Palin's OWN FUCKING WORDS:

Quote:
Remember months ago "bullseye" icon used 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin' incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20 (90% success rate;T'aint bad)

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #62 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Perhaps you could answer the points I made, or at least point out a single thread I've started here that takes a similar type of tragedy and milks it for partisan political gain.

Has nothing to do with political gain. It has everything to do with being sick and fucking tired of the violent conservative rhetoric. Liberals are not traitors, as put forward by Ann Coulter. Liberals are not enemies of the state, as put forward by Glen Beck. Julian Assange should not be assassinated as promoted by Sarah Palin.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #63 of 286
Unsupported denial ('no, it's not' or 'so you say') is about as far away from civilized, reasoned discussion as one can get.
post #64 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'll tell you what nearly drives ME to violence: Reading shit like this, where "the right wing" is blamed for this complete nut job. Oh, and by the way, Daily Kos had the SAME kind of fucking target list.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=249273

Okay, show us the Kos 'target list'. Or admit your lie.
post #65 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Kos had their OWN FUCKING MAP. THE EXACT SAME THING. You absolutely disgust me.


that's Palin's map, you dunce.
post #66 of 286
That's lolworthy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #67 of 286
Yes, because it's really hard to find examples of lefties using the same kind of military terminology in the political arena.

I don't know whether Daily Kos had any kind of map posted, but it took me five minutes to find this page, which identifies a "target list" of members who "sold out the constitution" in 2008. Giffords name is bolded. At the bottom, it says the vote puts a "bulls eye" on those districts.

To be consistent BR, I suppose you will condemn this as violent liberal rhetoric?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #68 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

This is almost too appalling to post, but it's nonetheless relevant and more importantly highlights how hate can often cause harm to someone's very own cause inadvertently-

"Westboro Baptist Church, the Topeka church known for its inflammatory anti-gay protests, plans to picket the funerals of the six people gunned down in Arizona on Saturday.
In a flier posted on its web site, the controversial church writes, "THANK GOD FOR THE SHOOTER -- 6 DEAD!"

In graphic language, it continues:

"Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you!"
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_806319.html

This makes me so angry. Not the fact you posted it, but that it is even out there to be posted. That anyone would spew such hatred. Especially someone in their supposed position. There is not an emoticon strong enough. There is staying true to your beliefs, and there is taking joy in someone elses misery and pain. They are two totally different things. This "church" needs to be pulled out by the roots and replaced with one that understands the concept of "love thy enemy and do good to those who persecute you" and how being the persecutor is not up to them. "they will know we are Christians by our love..."

My spirit weeps. And at the same time I am very angry. My apologies to any that read that. They do not represent any true Christians that I know.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #69 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Yes, because it's really hard to find examples of lefties using the same kind of military terminology in the political arena.

I don't know whether Daily Kos had any kind of map posted, but it took me five minutes to find this page, which identifies a "target list" of members who "sold out the constitution" in 2008. Giffords name is bolded. At the bottom, it says the vote puts a "bulls eye" on those districts.

To be consistent BR, I suppose you will condemn this as violent liberal rhetoric?

Oh I see, stretching. I get it. The word target in and of itself doesn't necessarily have a military or violent meaning. Of course you'd never admit to that. Nor does the word bullseye.

Accompany those words with encouraging followers to bring guns to rallies, to call for "second amendment solutions", to call liberals treasonous or enemies of the state, or to actually call for the assassination of Julian Assange on national television...now you've got some violent rhetoric.

Context. It matters. You won't care though. Why would you? You're Frank. It's not like you'll actually be reasonable. Ever. Why do I even talk to you either? I really should just get Lundy to ban me because you conservatives on this board are a huge fucking waste of time and energy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #70 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh I see, stretching. I get it. The word target in and of itself doesn't necessarily have a military or violent meaning. Of course you'd never admit to that. Nor does the word bullseye.

Accompany those words with encouraging followers to bring guns to rallies, to call for "second amendment solutions", to call liberals treasonous or enemies of the state, or to actually call for the assassination of Julian Assange on national television...now you've got some violent rhetoric.

Context. It matters. You won't care though. Why would you? You're Frank. It's not like you'll actually be reasonable. Ever. Why do I even talk to you either? I really should just get Lundy to ban me because you conservatives on this board are a huge fucking waste of time and energy.

Why wait for Lundy, if you don't want to talk to people, use some willpower and don't do it. Can you not stop yourself from typing a response and then clicking submit reply?

It is not that hard is it?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #71 of 286
Call it masochism and naivety , but occasionally I truly believe that everyone can be reasoned with. I try to have actual discussions with the conservative folks here, to really understand why they believe what they do. I also try to open their eyes to another way of thinking. But inevitably, all I get is snark, denial, and flat out bullshit in response. I get frustrated and go away for a while. But my belief that all humans are fundamentally good and can still be reasoned with gets the better of me and sucks me back in again and again.

Read through this thread. I asked MJ a few very simple questions. He flat out ignored them and gave these asshole one-liners back. You'd be frustrated and annoyed, too.

If you'd care to respond in his stead, that'd be nice. Do you believe that threatening an entire group with violence should be a crime?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #72 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Accompany those words with encouraging followers to bring guns to rallies, to call for "second amendment solutions", to call liberals treasonous or enemies of the state, or to actually call for the assassination of Julian Assange on national television...now you've got some violent rhetoric.

Context. It matters.

If context mattered to you, you would admit that NONE of those things you mention above has any relation to the tragic shooting of congresswoman Giffords, by the suspect in custody, Jared Lee Loughner.

The suspect is an atheistic liberal himself, and all indications are that he has no affiliation with conservative groups or causes. He does not cite Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck as role models, and his motivations for this heinous act does not appear to conform to any conservative or even far-right agenda.

The context here, is that a disturbed and probably mentally deranged person shot a number of innocent people (including a nine-year-old girl) for reasons that were only clear in his own head.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #73 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Call it masochism and naivety , but occasionally I truly believe that everyone can be reasoned with. I try to have actual discussions with the conservative folks here, to really understand why they believe what they do. I also try to open their eyes to another way of thinking. But inevitably, all I get is snark, denial, and flat out bullshit in response. I get frustrated and go away for a while. But my belief that all humans are fundamentally good and can still be reasoned with gets the better of me and sucks me back in again and again.

Read through this thread. I asked MJ a few very simple questions. He flat out ignored them and gave these asshole one-liners back. You'd be frustrated and annoyed, too.

If you'd care to respond in his stead, that'd be nice. Do you believe that threatening an entire group with violence should be a crime?

Simply threatening, probably not unless it is a crime to threaten someone already. Actually targeting any group with violence and carrying it out is a crime isn't it? I don't believe in the need for special hate crimes. A crime is a crime. If you commit it you should be punished. I don't believe we need special laws, we need to enforce the one that already exist.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #74 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Simply threatening, probably not unless it is a crime to threaten someone already. Actually targeting any group with violence and carrying it out is a crime isn't it? I don't believe in the need for special hate crimes. A crime is a crime. If you commit it you should be punished. I don't believe we need special laws, we need to enforce the one that already exist.

Assault is already a crime. When a gay person is beaten because he is gay, the person doing the beating is assaulting the entire gay community.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #75 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

If context mattered to you, you would admit that NONE of those things you mention above has any relation to the tragic shooting of congresswoman Giffords, by the suspect in custody, Jared Lee Loughner.

The suspect is an atheistic liberal himself, and all indications are that he has no affiliation with conservative groups or causes. He does not cite Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck as role models, and his motivations for this heinous act does not appear to conform to any conservative or even far-right agenda.

The context here, is that a disturbed and probably mentally deranged person shot a number of innocent people (including a nine-year-old girl) for reasons that were only clear in his own head.

Use incredibly violent rhetoric and imagery in your campaigns and when something violent happens to one of the targets of the rhetoric, you can expect some finger wagging, even if the crime was unrelated. Jared Loughner may not have been motivated by Palin, but there's nothing wrong with his act being a catalyst to stop this increasingly violent rhetoric coming almost solely from one side of the political spectrum.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #76 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Assault is already a crime. When a gay person is beaten because he is gay, the person doing the beating is assaulting the entire gay community.

Yes, assault is a crime. As is murder. To take your thought a bit further, if a person murders a person because he is rich, is he murdering or assaulting all rich people?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #77 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Use incredibly violent rhetoric and imagery in your campaigns and when something violent happens to one of the targets of the rhetoric, you can expect some finger wagging, even if the crime was unrelated. Jared Loughner may not have been motivated by Palin, but there's nothing wrong with his act being a catalyst to stop this increasingly violent rhetoric coming almost solely from one side of the political spectrum.

To the point of being called an accessory to the murder? (not that you did that, but it was posted in this thread)
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #78 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes, assault is a crime. As is murder. To take your thought a bit further, if a person murders a person because he is rich, is he murdering or assaulting all rich people?

Depends on the motive. If it was because he hates rich people and wants rich people to be afraid to walk around outside, sure.

Hate crimes should be reserved only for those acts that are meant to specifically strike fear in a certain community. Intent does matter.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #79 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Depends on the motive. If it was because he hates rich people and wants rich people to be afraid to walk around outside, sure.

Hate crimes should be reserved only for those acts that are meant to specifically strike fear in a certain community. Intent does matter.

Well at least you are consistent. I don't believe that any crime is any better or worse than any other of the same crime. Murder is murder, assault is assault, and if someone has a record of assault or murder, they should be dealt with accordingly. Whether their record is all gay people, all Christians or all people who wear ties on Sunday.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #80 of 286
A random sampling of commentary on Twitter. The second one (in bold) is particularly thought provoking...

*****

Too unstable, so the Army rejects him. Too unstable, so Pima Com College suspends him. But if he wants 2 buy a gun in AZ, no prob!
about 7 hours ago via OpenBeak

If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 pols, then 1 of them got shot, where would he b sitting right now? Just asking.
about 16 hours ago via OpenBeak

Christina Greene was the 9yr old killed. She was born on 9/11. Was on student council & only girl on baseball team.http://mmflint.me/dOs1oY
about 19 hours ago via OpenBeak

Thanks, Keith, 4 ur powerful Special Comment just now & 4 mentioning Glenn Beck's violent fantasies:http://mmflint.me/eTc1LC
about 20 hours ago via OpenBeak

Stunning admission by Tucson sheriff: Arizona "a mecca" of hate & bigotry which unhinges the unbalancedhttp://mmflint.me/hOlRG8 Wow.
about 20 hours ago via OpenBeak

RT @ebertchicago Sarah Palin rummages online frantically erasing her rabble-rousing Tweets like Stalinist trimming non-persons out of photo
about 21 hours ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®


Yikes.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
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