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Verizon iPhone expected to cause Android-based competitors to embrace 4G

post #1 of 50
Thread Starter 
iPhone competitors running the Google Android mobile operating system are expected by one Wall Street analyst to rapidly embrace Verizon's 4G long-term evolution high-speed data network, to fight off the presence of Apple's 3G-only smartphone.

Prior to Tuesday's announcement, some had hoped the Verizon iPhone would support the carrier's newly launched 4G LTE network. But the forthcoming Verizon iPhone will be a CDMA model capable of 3G speeds, and will not access the carrier's 4G network.

When asked why the new iPhone will not support high-speed LTE, Apple Chief Operating Officer Tim Cook said the addition of 4G would require design changes to the iPhone 4 hardware that his company was not prepared to make.

In addition, he said that compatibility of the iPhone with Verizon has been the single most requested feature since the iPhone launched exclusively on AT&T's network in the U.S. 2007. Not adopting 4G in the current model, Cook said, allows Apple to offer Verizon customers the iPhone now.

Responding to Tuesday's Verizon iPhone announcement, analyst Mike Abramsky with RBC Capital Markets said he expects competing smartphones running the Google Android mobile operating system will work to quickly embrace 4G, giving them a feature that Apple's iPhone does not currently offer.

Abramsky said he also does not believe Apple will rush to release an LTE 4G phone, which will allow devices running Android, and potentially new ones from Research in Motion as well, to beat Apple to the 4G race. He said he expects a 4G iPhone no earlier than late 2011, or perhaps more likely in 2012.

Mark Moskowitz with J.P. Morgan also said Tuesday he's not surprised that Apple didn't offer a 4G LTE handset. He noted that while there are devices accessing Verizon's 4G data network, adoption of LTE for voice transfer has been slower.

"Similar to 3G, we expect Apple to wait for both the 4G LTE technology and network capacity levels to evolve to support quality user experiences," Moskowitz wrote.

Verizon launched its 4G LTE network in December, offering high-speed data connections in 38 metropolitan areas and more than 60 commercial airports across the U.S. Data plans are $50 per month for 5GB, while 10GB costs $80 per month.

4G LTE mobile broadband offers speeds up to 10 times faster than Verizon's current 3G network. Real-world data rates of between 5 and 12 megabits per second downstream are expected, while upstream is expected to achieve between 2 and 5 megabits per second.

At the Consumer Electronics Show last week, Verizon rival and former exclusive iPhone carrier AT&T highlighted plans for its own 4G LTE network, set to begin deployment this year. The carrier has said that its rollout will begin earlier than expected, and the new network will be "largely complete" by the end of 2013.
post #2 of 50
Any rumors on what the iPhone 5 will consist of and if it will be announced mid year?
post #3 of 50
That makes sense. There only option right now is to have better specs, even if those specs are ultimately pointless for the average consumer, or worse, actually hinder the device in other ways.

Since most flagship Android-based devices have moved to a larger display to advertise even though the resolution is often before the iPhone’s total pixels to doubly affect it’s pixel density, it’s still a marketing angle.

It’s also a way to have more room for HW while keeping a thin appearance. But will customers go for it over it, especially when they find out the current limitations of LTE components?
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post #4 of 50
When iPhone 2G came out in 2007, it outsold all the 3G phones, and still does today.

They can go 10G, and still won't beat the iPhone
post #5 of 50
what are the current limitations of LTE components?
post #6 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That makes sense. There only option right now is to have better specs, even if those specs are ultimately pointless for the average consumer, or worse, actually hinder the device in other ways.

Since most flagship Android-based devices have moved to a larger display to advertise even though the resolution is often before the iPhones total pixels to doubly affect its pixel density, its still a marketing angle.

Its also a way to have more room for HW while keeping a thin appearance. But will customers go for it over it, especially when they find out the current limitations of LTE components?

I tend to agree in general with your remarks but I don't think the "better specs" option is as pointless as you say.

Now we know that LTE is probably off the table for iPhone 5, I think what we will see is a significant processor speed or memory improvement instead and I think that it will be more than welcome. The iPad struggles quite a bit with it's slow processor and limited memory, the iPhone would too if it had any productivity apps that actually taxed the thing.

I'd like to see a dual or four core chip and twice the memory for starters. For the iPad it's almost essential, but it would be nice for the iPhone as well and I don't see it getting in anyone's way.
post #7 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post

Any rumors on what the iPhone 5 will consist of and if it will be announced mid year?

1. Dual-core processor
2. More RAM
3. 16, 32, and 64 GB of Flash Memory
4. HSPA+ Enable
5. iOS 5

*Please note that I just made up number three and four.
post #8 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I tend to agree in general with your remarks but I don't think the "better specs" option is as pointless as you say.

Now we know that LTE is probably off the table for iPhone 5, I think what we will see is a significant processor speed or memory improvement instead and I think that it will be more than welcome. The iPad struggles quite a bit with it's slow processor and limited memory, the iPhone would too if it had any productivity apps that actually taxed the thing.

I'd like to see a dual or four core chip and twice the memory for starters. For the iPad it's almost essential, but it would be nice for the iPhone as well and I don't see it getting in anyone's way.

That wasnt my point. Sure, we all want these devices to be faster and better, but a simple HW comparison should be used as proof as there are other variables to consider.

The point of using better HW isnt easily quantified when you have different OSes on them. With Android not having GPU accelerated UI it will likely needs more RAM and CPU cycles to do the same job as the iPhone.

Could an Android tablet run on 256MB RAM as well as the iPad can? I dont think so. I do think the iPad need more RAM and hope it gets 1GB, but that is a different issue. The iPhone 5 wont get a quad-core ARM CPU because its not available. Only last week we saw dual-core Cortex-A9 processors in devices COMING OUT LATER THIS YEAR. I bet most of them ship after the iPad 2.

Here is an example of what I mean by HW specs not being a great indicator of performance when cross comparing OSes. Note that even the iPhone 3GS with a 600MHz CPU, 256MB RAM and 802.11g is besting the throughput of 1GHz CPU, 1GB RAM and 802.11n Android devices.

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post #9 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

what are the current limitations of LTE components?

Chip size and power draw.

All these 4G devices will run themselves off of cliffs as they scramble to adopt early LTE chips, making their batteries useless while the iPhone cruises along.

When the time comes for the iPhone to get LTE, the chips will have advanced to a much lower power draw, leaving battery life virtually untouched.
post #10 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I tend to agree in general with your remarks but I don't think the "better specs" option is as pointless as you say.

Now we know that LTE is probably off the table for iPhone 5, I think what we will see is a significant processor speed or memory improvement instead and I think that it will be more than welcome. The iPad struggles quite a bit with it's slow processor and limited memory, the iPhone would too if it had any productivity apps that actually taxed the thing.

I'd like to see a dual or four core chip and twice the memory for starters. For the iPad it's almost essential, but it would be nice for the iPhone as well and I don't see it getting in anyone's way.

LTE "4G" specs in my opinion is pointless. In the end, it's a phone first and the joe-consumer will place that first on the priority list. I think it's just the tech-heads that place way more importance on data speeds than really most consumers can comprehend which represent the minority. However, the wireless firms can use that as a marketing ploy to say "speeds are better than that guy's" but that will fly over most heads. Provide solid 3G performance and frankly, I think most folks won't care. Of course, faster is always better and not the kind of bickering that the telcos sling at each other.

I'll give you a bit of a reality check... Any processor would be taxed if there were an app to tax the CPU. The A4 is a solid design. Always room for improvement but I think you would never be content. I'll choose great performance and long battery life anytime over some dual - quad core design that is too early to use, and would result is sucking the battery life right out the door. These are supposed to be "mobile" devices.
post #11 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That wasnt my point. Sure, we all want these devices to be faster and better, but a simple HW comparison should be used as proof as there are other variables to consider.

The point of using better HW isnt easily quantified when you have different OSes on them. With Android not having GPU accelerated UI it will likely needs more RAM and CPU cycles to do the same job as the iPhone.

Could an Android tablet run on 256MB RAM as well as the iPad can? I dont think so. I do think the iPad need more RAM and hope it gets 1GB, but that is a different issue. The iPhone 5 wont get a quad-core ARM CPU because its not available. Only last week we saw dual-core Cortex-A9 processors in devices COMING OUT LATER THIS YEAR. I bet most of them ship after the iPad 2.

Here is an example of what I mean by HW specs not being a great indicator of performance when cross comparing OSes. Note that even the iPhone 3GS with a 600MHz CPU, 256MB RAM and 802.11g is besting the throughput of 1GHz CPU, 1GB RAM and 802.11n Android devices.



This reminds me of the "MHz Myth" campaign back when Apple tried to convince the market that G5 Macs running OSX were faster than Intel PCs. Though many, including myself, supported the myth argument, at the end of the day most users don´t buy it and prefer to go only with hardware specs, unfortunately.
post #12 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgl323 View Post

1. Dual-core processor
2. More RAM
3. 16, 32, and 64 GB of Flash Memory
4. HSPA+ Enable
5. iOS 5

*Please note that I just made up number three and four.

1) I think that’s likely, but even a single A5 built on Cortex-A9 would be welcome. Are there die size differences between SC and DC Cortex-A9s?

2) I hope so, especially in the iPad, which will surely be bumped to 512MB.

3) Maybe, and while don’t see other vendors matching Apple very easily at their price points it’s possible that Apple could see a financial reason for a larger capacity size. My reasoning is that the 64GB iPad with 3G is the 2nd most commonly sold iPad on Amazon. Note that they don’t have to step to 128GB next time. These get pricer and speeds can get slower so they could use 3x32GB for 96GB or 64GB+32Gb for 96GB, or something else entirely.

4) The current 3G radios are HSDPA Category 10 at 14.4Mbps and HSUPA Category 6 at 5.76Mbps. I haven’t seen any smartphones purporting any higher categories and the networks still don’t seem to be maximizing these chips.

5) Of course, but will what will have to offer?
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post #13 of 50
This makes sense Android phone makers will need to ratchet up the marketing with LTE.

On Verizon's network the phones will need to use LTE is match he speed of HSPA+ on AT&T.
post #14 of 50
Oh no, the cat is out of the bag!

This has totally blindsided Apple. Apple was expecting competitors to stick with 3G for at least 7 years, but it looks like the other side is trying to move on to the next big technology standard. Apple will now have to go back to the drawing board to stay competitive. (However, it looks like they'll be at least 2 years behind because they didn't except to ever happen.)

Apple engineers hadn't even considered anything past 3G, but now with this news it looks like they will have to go back into the office and work on upgrading the iPhone. So much for those long vacations they were hoping on taking.
post #15 of 50
i could find the theoretical speed limits of the chip used in the T-Mobile MyTouch 4G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

4) The current 3G radios are HSDPA Category 10 at 14.4Mbps and HSUPA Category 6 at 5.76Mbps. I havent seen any smartphones purporting any higher categories and the networks still dont seem to be maximizing these chips.
post #16 of 50
#6. 4" display without any marked increase in form factor. I think the time has come!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgl323 View Post

1. Dual-core processor
2. More RAM
3. 16, 32, and 64 GB of Flash Memory
4. HSPA+ Enable
5. iOS 5

*Please note that I just made up number three and four.
post #17 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

i could find the theoretical speed limits of the chip used in the T-Mobile MyTouch 4G.

Same as iPhone 4 and most other top-teir UMTS smartphones from 2010. 14.4Mbps down and 5.76Mbps up.
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post #18 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) I think thats likely, but even a single A5 built on Cortex-A9 would be welcome. Are there die size differences between SC and DC Cortex-A9s?

2) I hope so, especially in the iPad, which will surely be bumped to 512MB.

3) Maybe, and while dont see other vendors matching Apple very easily at their price points its possible that Apple could see a financial reason for a larger capacity size. My reasoning is that the 64GB iPad with 3G is the 2nd most commonly sold iPad on Amazon. Note that they dont have to step to 128GB next time. These get pricer and speeds can get slower so they could use 3x32GB for 96GB or 64GB+32Gb for 96GB, or something else entirely.

4) The current 3G radios are HSDPA Category 10 at 14.4Mbps and HSUPA Category 6 at 5.76Mbps. I havent seen any smartphones purporting any higher categories and the networks still dont seem to be maximizing these chips.

5) Of course, but will what will have to offer?

The A5 built on Cortex-A9 would be welcome, but wouldn't a dual-core cortex A9 be more battery efficient?

Yeah the iPad could use a bump to 512MB, even though it's already fast.

Still, even though 32GB is plenty of memory, I know quite of few people that desire a 64GB iPhone.

Isn't the iPhone 3GS/4 limited to HSDPA 7.2Mbps only?

A new UI perhaps? NFC support?
post #19 of 50
Ahh, so they are really selling a bill of goods on that whole 4G malarky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Same as iPhone 4 and most other top-teir UMTS smartphones from 2010. 14.4Mbps down and 5.76Mbps up.
post #20 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bstring View Post

#6. 4" display without any marked increase in form factor. I think the time has come!

post #21 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Same as iPhone 4 and most other top-teir UMTS smartphones from 2010. 14.4Mbps down and 5.76Mbps up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgl323 View Post

Isn't the iPhone 3GS/4 limited to HSDPA 7.2Mbps only?

Mea culpa. Most phones of 2010 have 7.2Mbps HSDPA, including the iPhone. Though the MyTouch 4G does have the 14.4Mbps.
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post #22 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Ahh, so they are really selling a bill of goods on that whole 4G malarky.

There is nothing wrong with that marketing. They arent saying its the ITUs definition of 4G so its a moot point. Unless the FCC steps in and says you can only refer to your network based on the ITU defined standards they arent breaking any laws. Who really knows the ITU standards anyway?
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post #23 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There is nothing wrong with that marketing. They arent saying its the ITUs definition of 4G so its a moot point. Unless the FCC steps in and says you can only refer to your network based on the ITU defined standards they arent breaking any laws. Who really knows the ITU standards anyway?

Last time I heard ITU had pretty high standards.
post #24 of 50
It renders any distinction between 3G and 4G pointless. If T-Mob calls HSPA+ 4G, there really is no such thing as 3G or 4G. It becomes a meaningless tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There is nothing wrong with that marketing. They aren’t saying it’s the ITU’s definition of ‘4G’ so it’s a moot point. Unless the FCC steps in and says you can only refer to your network based on the ITU defined standards they aren’t breaking any laws. Who really knows the ITU standards anyway?
post #25 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Now we know that LTE is probably off the table for iPhone 5, I think what we will see is a significant processor speed or memory improvement instead and I think that it will be more than welcome. The iPad struggles quite a bit with it's slow processor and limited memory, the iPhone would too if it had any productivity apps that actually taxed the thing.

I'd like to see a dual or four core chip and twice the memory for starters. For the iPad it's almost essential, but it would be nice for the iPhone as well and I don't see it getting in anyone's way.

It's a little strange that a "productivity app" would tax the iPhone more than games. Writing documents should not tax the specs, but games should and have been doing very well on the limited resources of both the iPhone and iPad. I'd welcome more speed and memory, but they are fairly capable as is. The only time resources are an issue for me is when hitting the back button in Safari - it always has to reload the page, which is very slow.
post #26 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

It renders any distinction between 3G and 4G pointless. If T-Mob calls HSPA+ 4G, there really is no such thing as 3G or 4G. It becomes a meaningless tag.

It always has been unless qualified. The number plus G designation to refer to generation is meaningless on its own. From Verizons PoV they had CDMA as 2G, CDMA2000/EV-DO as 3G, and now LTE, which is there biggest network change ever, they are calling 4G. I see nothing wrong with them calling their 4th generation of major network overhauls 4G just as I see nothing wrong with people referring to the most recent iPod Nano as the 6G model. Sure, its harder to confuse meaning with the Nano, but thats why these need to be qualified and understood so we dont confuse them.

Furthermore, weve dealt with Verizon calling their EV-DO 1x 3G when the speeds could easily have been slower than AT&Ts EDGE 2G. Id love for the designation to be based on a minimum and up and down throughput rate, but thats simply not going to happen without government oversight, and since it only appeals to a few people I doubt will ever happen.
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post #27 of 50
Not sure the distinction is pointless, but it's a lot like 4 guys living in tract homes in a middle class neighborhood all claiming to have the best house when, to everyone else, they are all pretty much the same. In my opinion, Verizon has a bigger lot, more upgrades and now new appliances so it gets more looks and chosen more often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

It renders any distinction between 3G and 4G pointless. If T-Mob calls HSPA+ 4G, there really is no such thing as 3G or 4G. It becomes a meaningless tag.
post #28 of 50
I don't have any problem with Verizon's branding. I can see EVDO being its 3rd generation network as well as LTE being their 4th generation network.

No one else in the entire world but T-Mob is calling HSPA+ 4G. Its purely marketing spin.

What will T-Mob label LTE when everyone else is calling it 4G? It unnecessarily complicates things and confuses people.

Actually I disagree that it only effects a few people. It effects everyone who is shopping in the mobile phone market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It always has been unless qualified. The number plus ‘G’ designation to refer to generation is meaningless on its own. From Verizon’s PoV they had CDMA as ‘2G’, CDMA2000/EV-DO as ‘3G’, and now LTE, which is there biggest network change ever, they are calling ‘4G’. I see nothing wrong with them calling their 4th generation of major network overhauls 4G
post #29 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What will T-Mob label LTE when everyone else is calling it 4G?

4G eLiTE?
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post #30 of 50
What is the standard download/upload rates that ITU considers "true" 4G LTE (or Wimax) networks?

I'm now getting between 3 and 4 Mbps download and .5 to 1.3 upload Mbps rates on ATT around the area (on my iP4) (a significant increase from last week, by the way). How does this compare with ITU 4G standards (not so-called carrier 4G specs as they exist today)?
post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

What is the standard download/upload rates that ITU considers "true" 4G LTE (or Wimax) networks?

I'm now getting between 3 and 4 Mbps download and .5 to 1.3 upload Mbps rates on ATT around the area (on my iP4) (a significant increase from last week, by the way). How does this compare with ITU 4G standards (not so-called carrier 4G specs as they exist today)?

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2374564,00.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4G#ITU_...less_standards
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post #32 of 50
The ITU wants to standardize 4G at 1Gb download 800Mb upload.

Currently LTE and WiMAX are not even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

What is the standard download/upload rates that ITU considers "true" 4G LTE (or Wimax) networks?
post #33 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

4G eLiTE?

4Ge(nhanced)?
post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That wasnt my point. Sure, we all want these devices to be faster and better, but a simple HW comparison should be used as proof as there are other variables to consider.

The point of using better HW isnt easily quantified when you have different OSes on them. With Android not having GPU accelerated UI it will likely needs more RAM and CPU cycles to do the same job as the iPhone.

Could an Android tablet run on 256MB RAM as well as the iPad can? I dont think so. I do think the iPad need more RAM and hope it gets 1GB, but that is a different issue. The iPhone 5 wont get a quad-core ARM CPU because its not available. Only last week we saw dual-core Cortex-A9 processors in devices COMING OUT LATER THIS YEAR. I bet most of them ship after the iPad 2.

Here is an example of what I mean by HW specs not being a great indicator of performance when cross comparing OSes. Note that even the iPhone 3GS with a 600MHz CPU, 256MB RAM and 802.11g is besting the throughput of 1GHz CPU, 1GB RAM and 802.11n Android devices.


The saddest part of that chart, regardless of device, is how crappy N performance is, period.
post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post

This reminds me of the "MHz Myth" campaign back when Apple tried to convince the market that G5 Macs running OSX were faster than Intel PCs. Though many, including myself, supported the myth argument, at the end of the day most users don´t buy it and prefer to go only with hardware specs, unfortunately.

Course on the sunspider benchmark (arguably more CPU intensive) the N1 beats everything...

Yes, we know it's all about 2.2.
post #36 of 50
Well it is on phones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

The saddest part of that chart, regardless of device, is how crappy N performance is, period.
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well it is on phones.

True. But even on desktops, you can typically get 22mbps on G. The diff on the g vs. n on the iphone is just ridiculous. But again, it isn't just an apple issue.
post #38 of 50
While new devices fight for bandwith on the LTE network, iPhone will have plenty of bandwith to actually connect to the internet at solid speeds.
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post #39 of 50
A desktop has an unlimited power supply and far more access to resources than a phone does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

True. But even on desktops, you can typically get 22mbps on G. The diff on the g vs. n on the iphone is just ridiculous. But again, it isn't just an apple issue.
post #40 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

A desktop has an unlimited power supply and far more access to resources than a phone does.

How far down the troll-hole is he that you cant see that Apples driver and OS are much better that the listed competition at pulling faster WiFi data rates at lower power. Does he really think that 802.11n is working the same without consideration across all systems?
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