Originally Posted by Nightcrawler
Of course you don't, you made it clear multiple times that you favour the sufi interpretation of Islam.
I would find nothing in that interpretation that contradicts the Sunna of the Prophet - and much in modern Islam that does contradict it but as it is said in the Qur'an... 'as to any dissent among you - in the end Allah will be the judge'.
A sufi doesn't believe in hell being a physical punishment, but if it were and you were there sensing the physical reality of everything you interpreted metaphorical or spiritual you wouldn't dare to decide eternal punishment for yourself, and if you did out of pride you would regret it within seconds in hell.
Exactly. Because a Sufi is rational.
Your reply is a good example of the sort of religiosity that logically God cannot be part of. Even orthodox theologians agree that to be apart from God would be hell (perhaps IS hell in our current case) so why would there be need for a physical punishment on top?
How can there even BE a physical punishment? Is the soul physical? Do you believe then in the resurrection of the body - for the express purpose of punishment?
All these things are insane. And God if he exists, cannot be insane.
But it's not your decision then where you will reside, it's God's judgment, maybe you will come to paradise after all, eventhough you don't want to, and protesting there for gay's rights to be there too.
And - according to your view - maybe you will live the purest life ever lived, greater than all the Prophets, and God on a whim could send you straight to hell.
See, what you do is put your own thoughts and ideas above God who knows so much more and created everything and expect God to bend into your thoughts otherwise you reject Him.
Except that I don't...you leave out the bit where I said God could not be like that but IF He was....
Time for an example unfortunately:Me:
I support Cardiff City football club but if they made it a condition of my buying a season ticket that I kill and eat my next-door neighbours for a year then I would renounce my support.You:
You see you will pay the price of never watching them. They are the ones who set the rules for ticket purchase - who are you to question them? You get what you deserve.
Another thing: A God who created everything could not also hold the characteristics of weakness, stupidity, bigotry and general being a moron.
These are human qualities. And a very un-evolved form of humanity at that.
It's like saying: "Look at that computer - it is the most advanced quantum machine in the world. The person who designed and invented it believes the earth is flat and was made in 7 days..."
You may not see a problem there but I do.....
Re Islam specifically I would build on this point: look at the inventions and discoveries of Islam. They form the basis of modern thought and science. Look at the amazing art and architecture....still unparallelled after 100o years in many cases.
Now ask yourself this: if the current Wahabis, Neobandis and other such groups are THE SAME people then where is their contribution?
In fact they DESTROY these things. There is nothing left in Mecca of even 200 years ago let alone from the Prophet's time. Nothing. Not his house or mosque. Nothing. Nada. Zero.
The Buddhas of Bamiyan were one of the wonders of the world. They were unquestioned throughout the entire Islamic empire for 1500 years.
Yet the Taleban blew them up.
It's not just me disagreeing with these Islamists - it is the whole of PREVIOUS ISLAMIC HISTORY
Trust me, every single one of us will be in for a shock, the beyond will highly likely be beyond our imaginations of it.
That's just it - I don't
If Islam teaches anything it teaches never trust another man. Trust in God if you choose but leave it at that.
And as for shocks I quote this poem from the time of real Islam:
In cell and cloister, in monastery and synagogue:
Some fear heall and others dream of Paradise.
But no man who really knows the secrets of his God
has planted seeds like this within his heart.
Why bigoted, neurotic with all too human failings? Because He calls the homosexual act (not the feelings) between two men sinful and you think it not to be?
I think many things not to be....so yes.
In Islam there is the concept of something called 'aql
- this translates roughly to 'reason'.
It used to be a theological benchmark but - interestingly - the Wahabis seem to have banned it. But I digress...in early Islam (ie pure Islam) the idea was simple:
God must be rational and logical to have created a rational and logical universe
If He did then he also created reason and logic itself
Therefore reason and logic lead to God.
It's obvious why a lot of Muslim leaders would want to ban this.
But it revolves just the same - whether or not God created us we have reason. We can use it or not and it is not hard to observe those who do and those who don't.
I think homosexuality is a considerable part a disease stemming from birth.
Ok...I have some definite thoughts about this statement and the sort of person who could say it but I will merely ask you this:
Why do you think this? What has made you think it? What in yourself maintains this view?
Scientists have found out in studies with twins that homosexuality is derived from a lack of certain hormones before birth and the lack of masculanation or feminazation of the brain, it's a defect.
Except scientists haven't found that.
Defect is a strong word. Have you considered the possibility you may be wrong?
This is what I mean: Islam - along with other religions (perhaps more so) is all about compassion. Ok.
Your statement depends - for compassion - on you being correct. Then all is ok.
But what if you are wrong?
Then you are almost Kufr
Of course you don't believe you are wrong - that's the whole point. that's what fundamentalism IS - we can do this extreme thing or say this extreme thing BECAUSE WE ARE RIGHT....we admit it would be sick and outrageous if we were wrong BUT WE ARE 100% RIGHT.
But I ask you again: what if you are wrong?
And how do you know?
Only Allah knows. You can only believe. And that my friend - true belief - require an acceptance that you amy be wrong.
It happens in the animal world as well, a certain percentage is homosexual.
You just shot your whole argument down in flames.
Are you saying that Allah created an animal world that also has a 'defect'?
Probably in a few years with prenatal examination and intervention, these and other defects could be prevented.
Well...extremists in religions are preventing already aren't they?
Admittedly they chop the heads off or stone them but then that's a cultural thing I guess. If you mean modern western science I don't think that it will happen unless religious extremists and fundies - people with beliefs like your own perhaps - take over the scientific community and move it away from a rational base.
But I guess most religious people would be against changing creation, arguing that defects are part of God's will, maybe to test humanity's compassion who knows.
Now you've blown the last bit of your argument.
If homosexuality COULD BE part of God's will as a test then why can't it be part of God's will BECAUE HW WANTS IT TO BE - just like everything else.
Or, put another way - why is not HETEROSEXUALITY a test?
Why is not the existence of BIGOTRY a test?
Perhaps the test is whether you are a bigot - God would surely wish to test that. Perhaps you are failing it.....
I would think about it a bit.
So if homosexuality is a defect like being lame, blind or something, from birth on, it can't be a sin.
I don't know if the born homosexuality is influenced also by upbringing, social environment, influences, maybe it can be strengthened or weakened or even overturned by these influences and will, it would be like changing a lefthanded person into a righthanded person. Maybe it's possible, but probably only seldom and not without many pains and traumas involved.
If you don't know this then why are you sure you DO know the other stuff you claimed above?
If homosexual orientation then is not a sin but a defect from birth (maybe 10% of humans are born with that defect), what then does the story of Lot mean?
I've told you that many people believe it to mean something else entirely and that bigots seem to want to twist this story and have succeeded over hundreds of years.
Since we're quoting scripture though then I have a question for you. It is well known that Islam forbids idol worship.
What then does this Qur'anic verse mean:
Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-Uzzá
and Manāt, the third, the other?
These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for.
As you probably know, Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt were the three goddesses worshipped by the Meccans.
This verse in the Qur'an calls them 'exalted' and hopes for their intercession - this is the sin of shirq
No-one doubts this was revealed to Muhammad.
What is your opinion? Are you prepared to worship those Goddesses? If not then why not? It is in the Qur'an.
The story of Lot is not about the 10% of homosexuals that exist in every town (strangely more in towns than in villages) otherwise God would have destroyed every city on the planet,
Exactly. It is about inhospitality to strangers.
Btw, in such a case - would you agree with Lot's action of offering hos daughters to be mass-raped?
it's about the excess and transgression of boundaries that occurred in Sodom and Gomorrah that led to a breakdown of morality and civility, where not 10% but 99,99% chose to engage in homosexual acts even against the will of their partners (gang-rape) and even against their natural orientation.
Can't be the gang-rape bit....Lot condoned that with his action re his daughters and it was permissable to the Israelites specifically stated in the Bible.
Since then homosexual acts are stigmatised and punished with death when being practiced publically, ie. with at least two witnesses among jews.
I think Judaism has moved on. Which is why perhaps most leading rationalists, thinkers and logicians are Jewish.
Some backward Muslims should follow their example - particularly in the Gulf peninsula.
It's the public act that is punished, not the orientation in itself, maybe in order to prevent the society's degeneration where the boundaries would be washed aside and a everything-goes-mentality develops, just like the act of adultery is punished.
I'm getting a bit tired of terms like 'defect' and 'degeneration' - I am trying to maintain my rational stance but....
Back on the topic: I don't see why there can't be religious hotels that can when publically declared expect customers to respect certain moral codes? As long as they don't reject people in general, for example by saying "you are gay, you can't stay here".
Which - coming full circle - is exactly what they did and what such people always do.
Hence this thread.