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Republicans are the Kings and Queens of debt.

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Just look at how they are responsible-

"2001 tax cut: $1,346 ($1,346)

2003 tax cut: $350 ($354 the cut has a tiny deficit-reducing impact in its final years)

Medicare Part D: $395 ($271). Note that I am not including the fact that the cost of this bill was almost immediately reestimated after it passed to be significantly higher, since that was not knowable to members of Congress when they voted.




2001 tax cut: Democrats 18%, Republicans 93%
2003 tax cut: D 3%, R 94%
Medicare Part D: D 17%, R 88%
2009 stimulus: D 100%, R 5%
2010 tax cut: D 77%, R 87%


... Republican leaders Mitch McConnell and Jon Kyl each voted for $2.3 trillion of debt (75 percent), yet will somehow try to argue that the need to raise the debt ceiling is not their fault.

~ http://baselinescenario.com/2011/01/...koprite-watch/
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2 of 29
While I won't dispute that Republicans, certainly of the last several years, have not been nearly as fiscally conservative as some of us would like. You do realize that there are two sides of the budget right? Revenue (taxes) and spending. While they definitely should cut taxes, I agree they should have also cut spending as well and cut it even deeper in order to achieve (minimally balance) or (better) surplus to be used for debt reduction and (in the future) more tax cuts.

The three biggest parts of spending are:

- "Defense" (I put in quotes because most of this is not really for defensive spending and this budget would be much smaller if it were)
- welfare
- interest on the debt

All three of which appear to be spinning out of control. Everything else is chump change. But, hey, this is how empires end.

Here's a nifty website. Try your hand at balancing the budget. Using the simple budget simulator I was able to reduce the deficit to about $140B by making some cuts across the board (including defense)...in short enough cuts to piss everyone off. I also reduced some taxes. I don't think it would be hard to get in balance from there with a bit more in spending cuts alone.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
Ha, you've edited your post with balancing the budget which is what I wanted to ask you about.

How would you cut it?

How much from defense and welfare in particular. Could you offer some percentages? How much a tax cut would you give? Would those mostly benefit the rich?

I tried your site. I just got a blank page on my iPhone when I tried it. I'm out so I'll try again later on, if I'm sober enough!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #4 of 29
Thread Starter 
China's rise has far more to do with low interest rates than mostly people realize. The businesses get money at a much cheaper rate: this is the deciding factor in there growth, far more than cheap labour.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 
Not sober enough, I just decreased the debt by $68 trillion!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ha, you've edited your post with balancing the budget which is what I wanted to ask you about.

How would you cut it?

How much from defense and welfare in particular. Could you offer some percentages? How much a tax cut would you give? Would those mostly benefit the rich?

I tried your site. I just got a blank page on my iPhone when I tried it. I'm out so I'll try again later on, if I'm sober enough!

Busy now. When I have some time maybe I'll register at the site, create my own budget, save it and share it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #7 of 29
Cannot seem to save my budget at that site. Here's a quick summary:

Regulatory Institutions:

- Data Provided by Government, Economic Regulations (cut 100%)


Welfare:

- Farm Assistance, Rural Aid, Development Programs, Corporate Welfare, Other, Indian Affairs, Bailouts and Stimulus, Post Office (cut 100%)
- Foodstamps and food programs, Low Income Children and Family Support Programs, Housing and Shelter Support (cut 10%)
- Unemployment Benefits and Programs (cut 50%)

Energy and Environment:

- Land and Resource Management, Alternative Energy and Technology Programs, Traditional Energy Programs, NASA (cut 100%)


Healthcare:

- Other (cut 100%)
- Medicaid, Medicare and SCHIP (cut 10%)


National Security:

- Foreign Aid, Other, War of Drugs (cut 100%)
- Department of Defense (cut both about 50%)


Education:

- K-12 education, Other, Special Education, Post High School Education (cut 100%)


Social Security:

- Other Social Security Programs (cut 100%)
- Social Security Program and Benefits (cut 10%)


Taxes:

100% cut for the following:

- Corporate Income Tax for small, medium and large corporations
- Estate and gift taxes


This all leaves about a $50B surplus.

It should be noted that this simulator uses static scoring so it's not possible to know what the benefits of spending and tax cuts would be to the economy, possibly actually increasing tax revenue.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Cannot seem to save my budget at that site. Here's a quick summary:

Regulatory Institutions:

- Data Provided by Government, Economic Regulations (cut 100%)


Welfare:

- Farm Assistance, Rural Aid, Development Programs, Corporate Welfare, Other, Indian Affairs, Bailouts and Stimulus, Post Office (cut 100%)
- Foodstamps and food programs, Low Income Children and Family Support Programs, Housing and Shelter Support (cut 10%)
- Unemployment Benefits and Programs (cut 50%)

Energy and Environment:

- Land and Resource Management, Alternative Energy and Technology Programs, Traditional Energy Programs, NASA (cut 100%)


Healthcare:

- Other (cut 100%)
- Medicaid, Medicare and SCHIP (cut 10%)


National Security:

- Foreign Aid, Other, War of Drugs (cut 100%)
- Department of Defense (cut both about 50%)


Education:

- K-12 education, Other, Special Education, Post High School Education (cut 100%)


Social Security:

- Other Social Security Programs (cut 100%)
- Social Security Program and Benefits (cut 10%)


Taxes:

100% cut for the following:

- Corporate Income Tax for small, medium and large corporations
- Estate and gift taxes


This all leaves about a $50B surplus.

It should be noted that this simulator uses static scoring so it's not possible to know what the benefits of spending and tax cuts would be to the economy, possibly actually increasing tax revenue.

You cut all of that and ended up with just a $50 billion surplus?

I agree with you on cutting military spending 50%, I'd even go for more up to an 80% cut, and I'd cut the prison systems budget by 95%.

I'd add money to the poor, at least double that and take the top 5% earners to a 70% - 75% tax bracket. The top 15%-5% bracket to 60% - 70%, keep it the same for the top 35% - 15% and have tax cuts for the rest, including not paying any sales tax if your income is in the 0% - 33% bracket.

I'd cut the healthcare spending in half with single payer and everyone would be insured.

Schools would get dramatically increased funding for better equipment and facilities starting with the most run down schools. They'd be lavishly equipped and would be allowed to take up to 10% of their pupils from parents paying privately for such a good experience. Teachers would also get substantial pay rises.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #9 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You cut all of that and ended up with just a $50 billion surplus?

Remember, I cut taxes also. With all that spending cut, some tax relief was also in order. Leaving some folks with more of their own money is a good idea once in a while. Ultimately, I'd love to try and cut enough spending to eliminate the income tax altogether.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I agree with you on cutting military spending 50%, I'd even go for more up to an 80% cut, and I'd cut the prison systems budget by 95%.

80% might be too much...but hard to know once we stop starting wars and meddling in the affairs of other countries and regions. The prison budget could be cut...much of that could move down to the state level, and if you ended the "war on drugs" and legalized most drugs for adults, your imprisonment rates would likely go down anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

and take the top 5% earners to a 70% - 75% tax bracket. The top 15%-5% bracket to 60% - 70%,.

This would likely be quite disastrous for the economy and would actually not garner much (if any) more revenue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'd cut the healthcare spending in half with single payer and everyone would be insured.

I'd cut all healthcare spending and de-regulate the industry (including eliminating state-based prohibitions on inter-state insurance sales), then overall healthcare spending would likely go down and everyone would be able to afford insurance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Schools would get dramatically increased funding for better equipment and facilities starting with the most run down schools. They'd be lavishly equipped and would be allowed to take up to 10% of their pupils from parents paying privately for such a good experience. Teachers would also get substantial pay rises.

Yeah...none of that has worked so far. I'd eliminate all federal education funding. Move it down to the state and hope they moved it further down to the local level. Ideally it would be completely privatized so that cost would go down, options and quality would go up.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #10 of 29
Thread Starter 
So roughly how long do you think, with your cost cutting plan (that Tea Partier's would be envious of) to get the debt gone completely? If your at $50 billion you've still got nearly $13 trillion to go, actually more because...well...you know why
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #11 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So roughly how long do you think, with your cost cutting plan (that Tea Partier's would be envious of) to get the debt gone completely? If your at $50 billion you've still got nearly $13 trillion to go, actually more because...well...you know why

A long time. But here's the thing...this whole budget game doesn't take into account economic growth and additional revenue that would come from that which would likely increase the surplus. So I think you'd be able to reduce that debt faster that way.

The first goal is just to get the budget in balance (or really close). Stop increasing the debt. This is tough to do without making a lot of tough choices. Once this has been done and the dust has settled a bit, round 2 is get more aggressive and start running surpluses (more spending cuts) and using those for debt reduction. In that sense you should never run a "surplus" until the debt is 0.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #12 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

A long time. But here's the thing...this whole budget game doesn't take into account economic growth and additional revenue that would come from that which would likely increase the surplus. So I think you'd be able to reduce that debt faster that way.

The first goal is just to get the budget in balance (or really close). Stop increasing the debt. This is tough to do without making a lot of tough choices. Once this has been done and the dust has settled a bit, round 2 is get more aggressive and start running surpluses (more spending cuts) and using those for debt reduction. In that sense you should never run a "surplus" until the debt is 0.

I agree we shouldn't be increasing the debt. One problem with your approach though (and mine for that matter) is that when you take so much money out you lose jobs, you may gain some in other areas and there are a multitude of remedies, but those jobs will go fast with the cuts we're both espousing, millions of them.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I agree we shouldn't be increasing the debt. One problem with your approach though (and mine for that matter) is that when you take so much money out you lose jobs, you may gain some in other areas and there are a multitude of remedies, but those jobs will go fast with the cuts we're both espousing, millions of them.

Well in the government many jobs would be lost, yet. There would be some disruption when you downsize the behemoth that the US government has become. But this will be more ethan compensated for. It will have to be done eventually.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Just look at how they are responsible-

"2001 tax cut: $1,346 ($1,346)

2003 tax cut: $350 ($354 the cut has a tiny deficit-reducing impact in its final years)

Medicare Part D: $395 ($271). Note that I am not including the fact that the cost of this bill was almost immediately reestimated after it passed to be significantly higher, since that was not knowable to members of Congress when they voted.




2001 tax cut: Democrats 18%, Republicans 93%
2003 tax cut: D 3%, R 94%
Medicare Part D: D 17%, R 88%
2009 stimulus: D 100%, R 5%
2010 tax cut: D 77%, R 87%


... Republican leaders Mitch McConnell and Jon Kyl each voted for $2.3 trillion of debt (75 percent), yet will somehow try to argue that the need to raise the debt ceiling is not their fault.

~ http://baselinescenario.com/2011/01/...koprite-watch/

That is the crap that is going to run the country and ruin it in the interim.Republicans are liars and again I repeat for big business and not ever for the middle class or poor.Screw the GOP Party
post #15 of 29
The deficit has nothing to do with tax cuts.

NIETHER party has the balls to cut SPENDING, which is the ONLY way to fix things.
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #16 of 29
The spin on the left these days is that tax cuts alone cause budget deficits with the exception of fighting wars. Other spending has nothing to do with.
post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
A wish list of cuts, most of which will never happen, from a branch of the GOP-

"➢\tCorporation for Public Broadcasting Subsidy. $445 million annual savings. ➢\tSave America's Treasures Program. $25 million annual savings.
➢\tInternational Fund for Ireland. $17 million annual savings.
➢\tLegal Services Corporation. $420 million annual savings.
➢\tNational Endowment for the Arts. $167.5 million annual savings.
➢\tNational Endowment for the Humanities. $167.5 million annual savings.
➢\tHope VI Program. $250 million annual savings.
➢\tAmtrak Subsidies. $1.565 billion annual savings.
➢\tEliminate duplicative education programs. H.R. 2274 (in last Congress), authored by Rep. McKeon, eliminates 68 at a savings of $1.3 billion annually.
➢\tU.S. Trade Development Agency. $55 million annual savings.
➢\tWoodrow Wilson Center Subsidy. $20 million annual savings.
➢\tCut in half funding for congressional printing and binding. $47 million annual savings.
➢\tJohn C. Stennis Center Subsidy. $430,000 annual savings.
➢\tCommunity Development Fund. $4.5 billion annual savings.
➢\tHeritage Area Grants and Statutory Aid. $24 million annual savings.
➢\tCut Federal Travel Budget in Half. $7.5 billion annual savings.
➢\tTrim Federal Vehicle Budget by 20%. $600 million annual savings.
➢\tEssential Air Service. $150 million annual savings.
➢\tTechnology Innovation Program. $70 million annual savings.
➢\tManufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) Program. $125 million annual savings.
➢\tDepartment of Energy Grants to States for Weatherization. $530 million annual savings.
➢\tBeach Replenishment. $95 million annual savings.
➢\tNew Starts Transit. $2 billion annual savings.
➢\tExchange Programs for Alaska, Natives Native Hawaiians, and Their Historical Trading Partners in Massachusetts. $9 million annual savings.
➢\tIntercity and High Speed Rail Grants. $2.5 billion annual savings.
➢\tTitle X Family Planning. $318 million annual savings.
➢\tAppalachian Regional Commission. $76 million annual savings.
➢\tEconomic Development Administration. $293 million annual savings.
➢\tPrograms under the National and Community Services Act. $1.15 billion annual savings.
➢\tApplied Research at Department of Energy. $1.27 billion annual savings.
➢\tFreedomCAR and Fuel Partnership. $200 million annual savings.
➢\tEnergy Star Program. $52 million annual savings.
➢\tEconomic Assistance to Egypt. $250 million annually.
➢\tU.S. Agency for International Development. $1.39 billion annual savings.
➢\tGeneral Assistance to District of Columbia. $210 million annual savings.
➢\tSubsidy for Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. $150 million annual savings.
➢\tPresidential Campaign Fund. $775 million savings over ten years.
➢\tNo funding for federal office space acquisition. $864 million annual savings.
➢\tEnd prohibitions on competitive sourcing of government services.
➢\tRepeal the Davis-Bacon Act. More than $1 billion annually.
➢\tIRS Direct Deposit: Require the IRS to deposit fees for some services it offers (such as processing payment plans for taxpayers) to the Treasury, instead of allowing it to remain as part of its budget. $1.8 billion savings over ten years.
➢\tRequire collection of unpaid taxes by federal employees. $1 billion total savings.
➢\tProhibit taxpayer funded union activities by federal employees. $1.2 billion savings over ten years.
➢\tSell excess federal properties the government does not make use of. $15 billion total savings.
➢\tEliminate death gratuity for Members of Congress.
➢\tEliminate Mohair Subsidies. $1 million annual savings.
➢\tEliminate taxpayer subsidies to the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. $12.5 million annual savings.
➢\tEliminate Market Access Program. $200 million annual savings.
➢\tUSDA Sugar Program. $14 million annual savings.
➢\tSubsidy to Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). $93 million annual savings.
➢\tEliminate the National Organic Certification Cost-Share Program. $56.2 million annual savings.
➢\tEliminate fund for Obamacare administrative costs. $900 million savings.
➢\tReady to Learn TV Program. $27 million savings."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_811557.html
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #18 of 29
Thread Starter 
From the list above how do they cut $7.5 billion for federal travel? Thats cutting it in half. Seems a huge figure for printing and binding by congress. They must currently spend $94 million on that a year.

Lol, they want to stop giving the IPCC $12.5 million, what a joke.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Just look at how they are responsible-

"2001 tax cut: $1,346 ($1,346)

2003 tax cut: $350 ($354 the cut has a tiny deficit-reducing impact in its final years)

Medicare Part D: $395 ($271). Note that I am not including the fact that the cost of this bill was almost immediately reestimated after it passed to be significantly higher, since that was not knowable to members of Congress when they voted.




2001 tax cut: Democrats 18%, Republicans 93%
2003 tax cut: D 3%, R 94%
Medicare Part D: D 17%, R 88%
2009 stimulus: D 100%, R 5%
2010 tax cut: D 77%, R 87%


... Republican leaders Mitch McConnell and Jon Kyl each voted for $2.3 trillion of debt (75 percent), yet will somehow try to argue that the need to raise the debt ceiling is not their fault.

~ http://baselinescenario.com/2011/01/...koprite-watch/


You're embarrassing yourself.
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post #20 of 29
How about simultaneously abolishing the Federal Reserve and personal income tax?
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

How about simultaneously abolishing the Federal Reserve and personal income tax?

It will never happen. Honestly, I think the income tax affects the American public more directly. I understand what an unaccountable behemoth the Fed is. My question is...what would replace it? Would the treasury just supply money directly?
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post #22 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm embarrassing myself.

Yes you are- http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/13/te...huge-deficits/
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes you are- http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/13/te...huge-deficits/

Those charts fail to include information on who was controlling congress during the years the budgets were passed. Congress controls the budget, not the President.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #24 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Those charts fail to include information on who was controlling congress during the years the budgets were passed. Congress controls the budget, not the President.

Repubs spend big, especially on war, and go for big tax cuts, especially for the super rich. That's at the heart of how they've run up Americas debt to astronomical levels.

Click here for another chart- http://www.lafn.org/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html


"* (1996) A number of Republicans have sent e-mails complaining that the Congress was Democratic while Ronald Reagan was President. Unfortunately, only half the Congress was Democratic during President Reagan's first 6 years in office, when the entire National Debt more than DOUBLED. The upper house of Congress, the U.S. Senate, had a Republican majority during those six years, which comprised most of President Reagan's time in office. That's why Bob Dole was the Senate Majority Leader while Reagan was President. Those Republicans also don't seem to know that any Bill passing out of Congress had to be approved by BOTH Houses of Congress, even by the Republican Senate! Furthermore, to go into Law a Bill must be signed by the President -- none other than Ronald Reagan during those critical years! President Reagan almost TRIPLED the National Debt during his eight years in office!"


I
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #25 of 29
You can argue who did what in the past all day long and it won't accomplish anything.

The simple fact is, what NEEDS to be done NOW is NOT being done. Spending must be reigned in and reduced. It is the only way to pay off our debt. Neither the republicans nor the democrats are willing to do that.
The politicians are there to garner personal power first, party power next, and to do what's right only if it doesn't compromise the the first two goals. They've proven that through their actions time and again.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Repubs spend big, especially on war, and go for big tax cuts, especially for the super rich. That's at the heart of how they've run up Americas debt to astronomical levels.

Click here for another chart- http://www.lafn.org/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html


"* (1996) A number of Republicans have sent e-mails complaining that the Congress was Democratic while Ronald Reagan was President. Unfortunately, only half the Congress was Democratic during President Reagan's first 6 years in office, when the entire National Debt more than DOUBLED. The upper house of Congress, the U.S. Senate, had a Republican majority during those six years, which comprised most of President Reagan's time in office. That's why Bob Dole was the Senate Majority Leader while Reagan was President. Those Republicans also don't seem to know that any Bill passing out of Congress had to be approved by BOTH Houses of Congress, even by the Republican Senate! Furthermore, to go into Law a Bill must be signed by the President -- none other than Ronald Reagan during those critical years! President Reagan almost TRIPLED the National Debt during his eight years in office!"


I


Not this shit again. OK, <long inhale, then exhale>....here we go..

Tax cuts and wars do not create deficits in and of themselves..especially the former. Secondly, comparing 1980s era era deficits to today's deficits is silly. We were in the middle of the cold war. Deficits were not created by the Reagan tax cuts, buy by overspending, which was controlled by a primarily Democratic Congress (no matter how you spin it). Reagan started out as a deficit hawk, and reluctantly accepted deficits because he felt the greater danger was the Soviet Union.

Attacking Reagan and the GOP for the deficit is also silly as it compares to current times. Deficit spending is now QUADRUPLE what it was during the Bush and Reagan years. The national debt has expanded faster in the last 2 years than at any other time in our history. President Obama added more the debt than all Presidents from Washington to Reagan...combined.

The silliest thing of all is playing the partisan game here, though. What matters now is getting the situation fixed. The GOP plan is a start. I would like to see more, including entitlement reform and some military spending cuts, but it's a start.
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post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

How about simultaneously abolishing the Federal Reserve and personal income tax?

What happens to the money when the federal reserve goes away? That money doesn't belong to the US treasury.
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

What happens to the money when the federal reserve goes away?

People revert to using real money?

The Fed need s to be abolished (as does the income tax). Sammi_jo is right about this. It won't happen (voluntarily) of course.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #29 of 29
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Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

People revert to using real money?

The Fed need s to be abolished (as does the income tax). Sammi_jo is right about this. It won't happen (voluntarily) of course.

No what I mean is that much of the money in the federal reserve bank is owned by private entities. It's not the government's money. It's odd to me that lefties would want to dissolve it and loose control over other people's money.
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