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Your ideas, hopes and links for green travel.

post #1 of 318
Thread Starter 
I sold my car the other day to put more funds into my business. I've got two cars I can use that I don't own, including my downstairs neighbour, so I should be fine and I live in a very walker friendly city, Edinburgh.

Its pretty depressing seeing all the petrol cars around. The new electrics aren't exactly affordable for a lot of people but there are plenty who could afford them but given a lot of peoples taste for big engined beamers etc it's going to take a while for them to be common.

A small electric car that could carry one or two people that's cheap is my dream vehicle.


Do you have a lust for a cheap small electric vehicle?

I think these electric bicycles have potential, especially if they could be more car like. Big enough to store some stuff and have the stability of four wheels and more road presence so your not going to go flying so easily as a bike.

Here's a link to a Segway, I wouldn't want to be on a lot of roads, with one personally, except maybe country roads-

"Electric-powered Segways were banned from Britain's footpaths today in a court case that gave new impetus to campaigners who want to see the self-balancing 12.5mph two-wheelers allowed on the country's roads."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/ja...an-rider-fined
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post #2 of 318
Thread Starter 
Something along the lines of this but wider, thicker tyres, 4 wheels and maybe 4 wheel drive- http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/twike

I'm not sure how these are powered but they could include solar and a battery.
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post #3 of 318
Something with two wheels and a lot of hp.
post #4 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Something with two wheels and a lot of hp.

Like this?
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #5 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Something with two wheels and a lot of hp.

More like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segway_PT

But not in the UK:
Segways banned from pavements and roads as rider fined £75
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post #6 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

More like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segway_PT

But not in the UK:
Segways banned from pavements and roads as rider fined £75

Not a lot of HP with that.

I see that as being interesting, but too expensive for what it accomplishes. I am more interested in small diesel vehicles myself. Maybe with a hybrid electric system. Green? Perhaps. But the fuel economy over gasoline is huge.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #7 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Not a lot of HP with that.

I see that as being interesting, but too expensive for what it accomplishes. I am more interested in small diesel vehicles myself. Maybe with a hybrid electric system. Green? Perhaps. But the fuel economy over gasoline is huge.

Perhaps a Quadriga?

16hp (hoof power)
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post #8 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Perhaps a Quadriga?

16hp (hoof power)

Maintenance is a bummer with those.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #9 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Maintenance is a bummer with those.

You can compost the byproducts, capture the methane to power fuel cells, and breed the horses.
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post #10 of 318
Thread Starter 
Not at all what I was looking for, but could be useful for some people, and it's very cheap to run (though more than walking or cycling)-

"Built on the popular and road proven T8Air chassis, the Tribred Pon-e has dual disc brakes, a hot-swapable Lithium Ion Battery, custom performance motorcycle compound tires and is capable of reaching 18 MPH on flat ground with a 20 mile range per charge. The average cost of a full battery charge is $ 0.07 – fractions of a cent per mile. The entire vehicle weighs 38 lbs and quickly folds down to easily transport in a car trunk or boat locker.

I commute 8 miles each way on a Pon-e, and it feels like I’m downhill skiing to and from work. More importantly, it means one less car on the road."
~ http://bikincyprus.com/2010/12/elect...tation-option/
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post #11 of 318
Thread Starter 
Wow, I didn't know these electrics cost so little to charge-

"i-MiEV, with 57 horsepowers and a top speed of 87mph, has a lithium-ion battery which gives it an autonomy of 100 miles. The battery can be charged up to 80% in only 20 minutes using Mitsubishi’s bespoke high-power charger. A normal electricity socket is able to charge the battery to 100% in six hours. Mitsubishi estimates that the car can travel 10,000 miles on £45 of electricity at current UK domestic prices."
~ http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2009/...-electric-car/


That's cheaper than diesel
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post #12 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

You can compost the byproducts, capture the methane to power fuel cells, and breed the horses.

Whistle away. You have obviously never owned or maintained a horse. They seem fun until the actual maintenance comes into place. And having a place to stable them and feeding them, and vet bills and shooing them and so on. I love horses, but for city life, totally impractical.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #13 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Wow, I didn't know these electrics cost so little to charge-

"i-MiEV, with 57 horsepowers and a top speed of 87mph, has a lithium-ion battery which gives it an autonomy of 100 miles. The battery can be charged up to 80% in only 20 minutes using Mitsubishis bespoke high-power charger. A normal electricity socket is able to charge the battery to 100% in six hours. Mitsubishi estimates that the car can travel 10,000 miles on £45 of electricity at current UK domestic prices."
~ http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2009/...-electric-car/


That's cheaper than diesel

Yes it is cheaper, but the diesel is there for the times when you lose power and need a little extra range. That is where a hybrid would be nice. A small diesel for charging or helping extend range and batteries for the relatively short distances compared to a fuel powered vehicle.
NoahJ
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post #14 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Something with two wheels and a lot of hp.

I would guess that battery tech will develop so that in tiny batteries huge amounts of power will be able to be stored resulting in bikes that are far faster than gas powered bikes will ever be- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7xinT2YYxA
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post #15 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes it is cheaper, but the diesel is there for the times when you lose power and need a little extra range. That is where a hybrid would be nice. A small diesel for charging or helping extend range and batteries for the relatively short distances compared to a fuel powered vehicle.

One way around batteries are fuel cells. Technology is progressing on storage of H2. Main issue is cheap source of H2, electrolysis still costly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production
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post #16 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes it is cheaper, but the diesel is there for the times when you lose power and need a little extra range. That is where a hybrid would be nice. A small diesel for charging or helping extend range and batteries for the relatively short distances compared to a fuel powered vehicle.

Do you have $13,000? I'm not sure if this or anything equivalent is available but it seems pretty good-

"..this German creation claims a fuel economy of 157 mpg with no fancy hybrid drive train, fuel cells, or plug in paraphernalia. Weighing less than a thousand pounds, the sporty rear-wheel drive 4-seater is designed to be maximally aerodynamic. The Loremo sports a modest 2-cylinder, 20 hp turbo diesel motor, has a top speed of 100 mph, and does 0-60 in ten seconds. If that sounds like less than elite performance, the anticipated $13,000 price tag should put it in a bit more perspective. The Loremo is due to come onto the European market in 2009."
~http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006...o_ag_157_m.php

According to Wikipedia the Loremo couldn't get enough funding. That seems suspicious to say the least. WTF is going on to keep these kinds of vehicles from us!

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loremo
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post #17 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Its pretty depressing seeing all the petrol cars around. The new electrics aren't exactly affordable for a lot of people

Yep, cost is a HUGE factor.

Also, electric cars STILL consume carbon fuel (coal, or oil, depending on what your local power plant uses for fuel... here in America we have very little Nuclear power, not sure about your location.)

Combine that with the environmental cost of creating (and disposing of) those batteries (not to mention a whole new car) and you find that the "carbon footprint" of a Nissan Leaf is no better than that of the all-petrol Sentra ! (or whatever names they go by in Europe.)
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post #18 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

One way around batteries are fuel cells. Technology is progressing on storage of H2. Main issue is cheap source of H2, electrolysis still costly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

I understand fuel cells generally and am all for them. Unfortunately, the tech is not there yet. Getting closer maybe, but not production for general vehicular use. I do believe that they should invest more into this area of research. What I described, I believe, can easily be accomplished with todays tech and be sold on the market if a car manufacturer wanted to.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #19 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Do you have $13,000? I'm not sure if this or anything equivalent is available but it seems pretty good-

"..this German creation claims a fuel economy of 157 mpg with no fancy hybrid drive train, fuel cells, or plug in paraphernalia. Weighing less than a thousand pounds, the sporty rear-wheel drive 4-seater is designed to be maximally aerodynamic. The Loremo sports a modest 2-cylinder, 20 hp turbo diesel motor, has a top speed of 100 mph, and does 0-60 in ten seconds. If that sounds like less than elite performance, the anticipated $13,000 price tag should put it in a bit more perspective. The Loremo is due to come onto the European market in 2009."
~http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006...o_ag_157_m.php

According to Wikipedia the Loremo couldn't get enough funding. That seems suspicious to say the least. WTF is going on to keep these kinds of vehicles from us!

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loremo

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-con...ste-comes-out/

The issue was not only getting funding, but also dealing with size issues and layout issues. Interesting car, but not production ready.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #20 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-con...ste-comes-out/

The issue was not only getting funding, but also dealing with size issues and layout issues. Interesting car, but not production ready.

I don't believe that for one second. The idea that it's design was so flawed that it couldn't be produced is absurd, so is the notion that it wouldn't have a market because it's so small. People would buy it in droves. There are currently pretty small cars already, including in the US, the Smart being the most obvious. That Smart can't fit anyone in the back...zipidy dip....none. The idea of having the rear passengers face backwards so that they have more legroom is a great idea, at least it gives the car the option which is pretty damn good.

The article gets it's facts wrong too. The sporty version which was intended for the US get's 118 MPG's 0-60 in 10 secs), but the article says wrongly that's the more efficient one. The more efficient one gets 156 MPG's and does 0-60 in about 16 secs. I know which one I'd pick- the one with the extra 38MPG's. If the author of that article can't even get that right how much does he even care? It's pretty obvious that he/she or more appropriately it, is a piece of crap happy to line the pockets of those who benefit financially from it's failure. It's a disgrace. Even if the car wasn't 100% there it should be supported to get it or other similar vehicles onto the production line as quickly as possible.

Real journalists should be looking into finding out exactly what happened so that cars like this aren't just killed off.




A diesel hybrid Peugeot is available in Europe. It gets much less than half the Loremo's MPG's and will cost a whole lot more, so the bankers and oil companies will be absolutely delighted with it- http://inhabitat.com/peugeot-3008-hy...ybrid-vehicle/
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post #21 of 318
This looks like fun.

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post #22 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I don't believe that for one second. The idea that it's design was so flawed that it couldn't be produced is absurd, so is the notion that it wouldn't have a market because it's so small. People would buy it in droves.

And yet it couldn't get funding. Odd. Why do you suppose that is?

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post #23 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And yet it couldn't get funding. Odd. Why do you suppose that is?

I think strings were in all likelihood pulled so that it didn't get funded enough to be a threat to anyone. How that happened I obviously don't know, but we're talking billions of dollars lost to oil companies, larger car sales, maybe even electric car sales and bankers financing the buyers (much cheaper than most cars) and bankers financing regular cars makers etc.

Work it out yourself just in the money saved on gas. If say a million cars were sold that's several billions in gas not purchased over a typical 30 MPG's car.


15,000 (miles) divided by 156 (MPG's) is 96 gallons at $3 a gallon = $288

15,000 (miles) divided by 30 (MPG's) is 500 gallons at $3 a gallon = $1,500

That's a saving of $1,212 a year. Times that by a million cars sold (10 of millions would sell in the first five years of production) and you get $1.212 billion.

As the total reaches 10 million or 100 million worldwide with other models of similar efficiency that becomes $12 billion and $121 billion a year respectively.

The mpg's are much better than current hybrids, they'll also give off less CO2 than all electrics for a good bit of time to come because so much electricity is generated from coal, even nuclear has a fairly high CO2 emissions per watt.

These two cylinder engines are cheap that's partly why the car cost less and with the gas savings tons and tons of people would want them. It's a huge threat and so they've killed it.
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post #24 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think strings were in all likelihood pulled so that it didn't get funded enough to be a threat to anyone.

I know there are more markets than the USA, but that car could never meet the government safety requirements here. So one of the largest vehicle markets is never going to be available to it.... Makes it harder to attract funding.

The required safety equipment alone wieghs a thousand pounds for cars sold in the USA.
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post #25 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think strings were in all likelihood pulled so that it didn't get funded enough to be a threat to anyone.



By whom? How? Are you claiming that of the trillions of dollars of capital that exist in this world, this measly little company couldn't get a few hundred million or a couple billion to fund its business from investors that couldn't or wouldn't be influenced by these special interests you think have derailed this? This is the oldest and most bogus and never been proven conspiracy theory in the history of the modern world.

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post #26 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I know there are more markets than the USA, but that car could never meet the government safety requirements here. So one of the largest vehicle markets is never going to be available to it.... Makes it harder to attract funding.

The required safety equipment alone wieghs a thousand pounds for cars sold in the USA.

You're not suggesting that US regulations might be stifling innovation and even having some unintended negative consequences like making it difficult for car makers to produce more fuel efficient vehicles?



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post #27 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I know there are more markets than the USA, but that car could never meet the government safety requirements here. So one of the largest vehicle markets is never going to be available to it.... Makes it harder to attract funding.

The required safety equipment alone wieghs a thousand pounds for cars sold in the USA.

Maybe it weighs that much in some cars, but not this one because it was built to pass those regulations, including for the US.

In the UK gas is about $9 a gallon and the government takes a big cut of that in tax, much more than the US gov does. They wouldn't be too pleased at seeing so much revenue lost there and in the taxes paid on a much cheaper purchase price. The buyer is getting screwed by big business and the gov.
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post #28 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post



By whom? How? Are you claiming that of the trillions of dollars of capital that exist in this world, this measly little company couldn't get a few hundred million or a couple billion to fund its business from investors that couldn't or wouldn't be influenced by these special interests you think have derailed this? This is the oldest and most bogus and never been proven conspiracy theory in the history of the modern world.

So it's that hard to make a car run? BS, total BS.
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post #29 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So it's that hard to make a car run? BS, total BS.

I don't believe I said that. What I'm challenging is your claim that despite how great and wonderful this car is and how many would have been sold...the inventors couldn't get funding. Two possibilities here:

1. A vast worldwide conspiracy that kept all available investment money from them.

2. The car, business plan, market and/or management (or some combination of all of these) was not a very good investment.

Occam's razor suggests #2.

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post #30 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't believe I said that. What I'm challenging is your claim that despite how great and wonderful this car is and how many would have been sold...the inventors couldn't get funding. Two possibilities here:

1. A vast worldwide conspiracy that kept all available investment money from them.

2. The car, business plan, market and/or management (or some combination of all of these) was not a very good investment.

Occam's razor suggests #2.


We can rule 2 out, that leaves 1, and it wouldn't take that much effort to halt it given only a few people within the company would have made the decision to quit.

Who knows though maybe there's still a chance that something might happen along the lines of the Lomero. My guess is that what will emerge will be more expensive and less fuel efficient. Not because it had to be, but because then and only then, will it be palatable enough for people in high places for it to proceed.
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post #31 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

We can rule 2 out

On what basis?

Number 2 is far more likely. Sorry to tell you this but your conspiracy theory is pretty unlikely. People with better mouse traps fail to build businesses all the time. More often than they succeed in fact.

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post #32 of 318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

On what basis?

Number 2 is far more likely. Sorry to tell you this but your conspiracy theory is pretty unlikely. People with better mouse traps fail to build businesses all the time. More often than they succeed in fact.

I'd love to see the design flaw that killed this car that couldn't be changed without spending so much money no one would invest in it.
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post #33 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'd love to see the design flaw that killed this car that couldn't be changed without spending so much money no one would invest in it.

I didn't claim that it was necessarily a design flaw in the product. You don't seem to realize how incredibly difficult it is to start and run a business. It's not just about the product. There are thousands of factors to make a business successful. Maybe it is/was a "better mousetrap." Maybe not. But there are many other factors that go into investment decisions like this.

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post #34 of 318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I didn't claim that it was necessarily a design flaw in the product. You don't seem to realize how incredibly difficult it is to start and run a business. It's not just about the product. There are thousands of factors to make a business successful. Maybe it is/was a "better mousetrap." Maybe not. But there are many other factors that go into investment decisions like this.

Of course there are so you have to admit they'd have to be pretty bad at running their company to not get funding if it wasn't a design flaw. The crappy article NoaJ linked to also strongly implied it was a design flaw that was crippling progress.

I find it pretty odd too that none of these spectacular design flaws have been explained anywhere.
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post #35 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Of course there are so you have to admit they'd have to be pretty bad at running their company to not get funding if it wasn't a design flaw.

Actually, I wouldn't. You're not getting it. You could have the best product in the world...but that's not the only thing, or even the most important thing in building and growing and running a business. Is the market as great as you speculate? Maybe. Maybe not. What about distribution channels? What about manufacturing logistics? What about service, support and warranty issues? I'm betting you know almost nothing about designing, building, marketing and selling cars, let alone running starting, growing and run a company to do those things, but you've jumped to the conclusion that this product was such an obvious slam-dunk success and that the only reason it hasn't gotten off the ground is because of the nefarious, conspiratorial actions of a cabal of fossil-fuel special interests.

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post #36 of 318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually, I wouldn't. You're not getting it. You could have the best product in the world...but that's not the only thing, or even the most important thing in building and growing and running a business. Is the market as great as you speculate? Maybe. Maybe not. What about distribution channels? What about manufacturing logistics? What about service, support and warranty issues? I'm betting you know almost nothing about designing, building, marketing and selling cars, let alone running starting, growing and run a company to do those things, but you've jumped to the conclusion that this product was such an obvious slam-dunk success and that the only reason it hasn't gotten off the ground is because of the nefarious, conspiratorial actions of a cabal of fossil-fuel special interests.

Yeah I'm sure those are the things that killed it, supply lines and such's...those guys probably had no clue...or was it funding, hmmm... difficult one.
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post #37 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yeah I'm sure those are the things that killed it, supply lines and such's...those guys probably had no clue...or was it funding, hmmm... difficult one.

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post #38 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Maybe it weighs that much in some cars, but not this one because it was built to pass those regulations, including for the US.

Perhaps that was it's design flaw... The inability to build it within their design parameters and also meet US regulations.
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post #39 of 318
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Like this?

That might actually be fun. I've seen one DIY electric bike on campus made from a japanese standard. One of my coworkers has an eGo that has range enough for round campus riding. Outside of town you'll get range anxiety plus it can't keep up with traffic or dust an M3 off the line.

I was thinking more of an sv650r which will get 45-50 mpg without really trying.
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170 mpg's (US) about 200 mpg's (Imperial) all diesel engine, but not cheap (a silly $30,000 ish) and only a limited production begining in 2013, at least initially. But I'd take one- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VW_L1.JPG
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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