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Your ideas, hopes and links for green travel. - Page 4

post #121 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The reality is massively large and powerful engines are for the fun of it, not because they are needed, far more often than not.

Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?

Hands we all know that you wish to force your conception of Utopia on the rest of us based on your own perceptions of what people really need (or don't). But, frankly, it gets a bit tiresome. The total disregard and disrespect for people making their own choices for what they individually want and need is getting kind of offensive.

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post #122 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?

Hands we all know that you wish to force your conception of Utopia on the rest of us based on your own perceptions of what people really need (or don't). But, frankly, it gets a bit tiresome. The total disregard and disrespect for people making their own choices for what they individually want and need is getting kind of offensive.

Not as offensive as not caring about global warming though.
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post #123 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Not as offensive as not caring about global warming though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #124 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Lol, every big family needs a big engine! Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?

The reality is massively large and powerful engines are for the fun of it, not because they are needed, far more often than not. Many smaller vehicles can carry lots of people and the vast majority of people don't need massive vehicles.

One of the first thing you notice arriving in the UK after being in the US is how tiny all the cars seem, it's really stands out. And yet Brits manage to get their kids around fine...go figure.

Sorry to break it to you but larger engines are required in larger vehicles. You put forth assertions and you do nothing to back them up. It is not hard to understand that a larger vehicle needs a larger engine to push it. Whether gas or electric. More weigh needs more power. And power comes with size, not good intentions. Having sufficient power is not just a status symbol, it also leads to a safer vehicle as well. Maneuverability, ability to accelerate and climb inclines as well as use of engine compression for slowing vehicles on descent are all safety requirements that you cannot overlook. A smaller engine will not push a larger vehicle up a hill like it needs to, nor will it slow it going down a hill as well. I am very happy that you do not legislate anything for anyone, the unintended consequence of what you toss out there could be devastating to those you do not think of when you push your agenda. Then you point to what could possibly happen if people don't do what you want and ignore or brush aside what will happen for sure if they do.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #125 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So punish large families for having too many kids to fit in the smaller vehicles. Nice. Once again, 2 dimensional argument...

Or maybe people should stop having such large families. We do have a population problem on this planet. Economic disincentives to produce a herd of offspring isn't such a bad thing.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #126 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or maybe people should stop having such large families. We do have a population problem on this planet. Economic disincentives to produce a herd of offspring isn't such a bad thing.

Yes oh great leader... \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #127 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or maybe people should stop having such large families. We do have a population problem on this planet. Economic disincentives to produce a herd of offspring isn't such a bad thing.

And we see more of the true anti-human nature of the liberal mindset.

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post #128 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Sorry to break it to you but larger engines are required in larger vehicles. You put forth assertions and you do nothing to back them up. It is not hard to understand that a larger vehicle needs a larger engine to push it. Whether gas or electric. More weigh needs more power. And power comes with size, not good intentions. Having sufficient power is not just a status symbol, it also leads to a safer vehicle as well. Maneuverability, ability to accelerate and climb inclines as well as use of engine compression for slowing vehicles on descent are all safety requirements that you cannot overlook. A smaller engine will not push a larger vehicle up a hill like it needs to, nor will it slow it going down a hill as well. I am very happy that you do not legislate anything for anyone, the unintended consequence of what you toss out there could be devastating to those you do not think of when you push your agenda. Then you point to what could possibly happen if people don't do what you want and ignore or brush aside what will happen for sure if they do.

Haha, I think I've heard it all now. All large vehicles need a 300hp V8 or there unsafe to take your kids to the mall in!!!

I tell you NoahJ you do make me laugh sometimes.
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post #129 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Haha, I think I've heard it all now. All large vehicles need a 300hp V8 or there unsafe to take your kids to the mall in!!!

I tell you NoahJ you do make me laugh sometimes.

Where in any of your posts did you specify HP or number of cylinders? You said:

Quote:
Make it even more expensive to buy bigger engined vehicles and even cheaper to buy small one's.

Now you make a specific claim, that was not your original premise. See how more facts rather than blind assertions are important. \

And if you would read my post, the mall was nowhere in there. Many people do not live at the mall, and the world is not a flat place either. You simplify your arguments to where they cannot be taken seriously.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #130 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes oh great leader... \

Did I say we should make large families illegal? Certainly not. But it's silly to think that they shouldn't be discouraged. Do you contend that overpopulation ISN'T a problem?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #131 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

JG what are those projections for the US for 2020 and how much of that is from ethanol? I'm busy and on iPhone so if you could dig out those figures thatcwould be really helpful. Thanks in advance.

The US hasn't established a goal that I'm aware of. Several US states have though, some of which have fallen short of their goals.

Setting a specific goal is problematic. For one, advances in existing energy technology are hard to predict. Carbon capture plants are one such example. So are unanticipated discoveries of oil or natural gas, both of which have happened in just the past year, which I alluded to in a previous post.

Clearly the DOE studies point to increased reliance on existing fuels such as natural gas. "Renewable" energy is also expected to increase, but that assumes continued government subsidies without which their viability is in serious doubt. The coming years are going to see a reckoning of the US's astoundingly high debt, and the electorate may not be in the mood to continue these subsidies when other needs (Soc Sec / Medicare / Obamacare ad nauseum) become more pressing.

The closest legislation I can think of is Bush's 2007 "clean energy" Act that steals money from us and throws it at all the outfits that have popped up in response to government handouts, chasing their alleged green dreams. Such cottage industries always arise in response to government largess - just as determining which ones are legitimate and which are fraudulent always follows. Show trials with some corrupt Congressmen going to jail alongside their CEO accomplices are the predictable result.

The bill comes close to answering your question by mandating the minimum of ethanol in motor fuel - but it only addresses "biofuels" and not corn ethanol. As I recall that was in response to some very legitimate concerns about our food supply. That's also the closest thing to a bright spot in that bill, since it mandates an increase of sugar and cellulose based fuels, and gets away from the corn ethanol we've been using. It simply makes no sense for me to cultivate land, plant, grow, water, fertilize, etc, harvest the crops, and then refine the product into fuel when food is expensive enough as it is.

As far as I know John Deere and Caterpillar aren't making any wind-powered combines and harvesters to farm our land. The diesel-powered-machinery intensive, ground water demanding, planting/growing/harvesting/refining process must also be taken into consideration if you're of the "green" mindset. Growing food for fuel can't possibly be cost effective, and wouldn't exist if not for government mandates. Needless to say I think that's short-sighted. At least the bill requires moving away, if only slightly, from dependence on corn ethanol.

Food is for eating. Fuel is for burning.

As for your next link:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Stunning figures for clean energy in the EU by 2020. Let this be an inspiration to others, especially the nay sayers in the US, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia-

"It is very encouraging that 25 of the 27 E.U. countries intend to either exceed or meet their target, said the European wind associations policy director, Justin Wilkes.
This shows the vast majority of E.U. countries clearly understand the benefits of deploying renewable energy technologies, particularly wind power, Mr. Wilkes said.
The action plans indicated that 34 percent of the blocs electricity demand will be supplied from renewable sources by 2020."
~ http://www.ecoseed.org/en/business-a...2020-plan-weak

I'm more than a little confused since none of those quotes appear in the story you linked. In fact, it seemed rather critical:

Quote:
European Union lawmakers and renewables sector representatives criticized the European Commissions' newly released Energy 2020 communication, saying it lacks cutting edge commitments and does not provide a solid platform for renewables until mid-2011.

An outline of their demands for the commission's energy vision, which spells out plans towards as late as 2050, is expected in the following months.

Their response will mostly be on the commissions decision to shift to low-carbon technologies instead of total renewables.

"Low-carbon" seems to imply more of what's been underway for a long time: increasingly efficient methods of using the oil, gas, and coal. Existing, proven technology that already exists and improves with each passing year; not solar power beamed from massive orbiting satellites (for a mere what, 300,000 homes? You're going to need a lot of satellites). The shift to "low-carbon" or even "lower-carbon" technologies sounds more reasonable, much to the chagrin of the greenies:

Quote:
"Particularly disappointing is the absence of any pledge in the Communication to step up the share of renewable energy," said Linda McAvan, chairperson of the European Parliament socialist groups environment and climate change network.

She cited studies showing that Europe could reach the target of 100 percent renewable energy by 2050, if only the right measures are put in place.

Sure, there's no limit what could be accomplished given "the right measures" - weasel words that could mean anything, from inventing a motor that runs on electrical charge in the atmosphere. Until then it's all...



...pi in the sky.
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post #132 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes oh great leader... \

Seriously though, why such a glib dismissal? Clearly there are many out there who find overpopulation to be quite the threat--so much so that one major superpower governing 1/6 of the Earth has instituted much stricter measures than I discussed. Making things a little bit more expensive to have a larger number of children isn't something so far fetched as to provoke such a rude comment from you.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #133 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Not as offensive as not caring about global warming though.

*sigh*

"Caring" is the liberal's highest achievement. Usually, it's the only achievement.

"Caring" requires no critical thinking and no logical analysis. It requires no facts. It invites no debate. It tolerates no criticism.

"Caring" sets no achievement standards. It has no measurable effects.

"Caring" can't fail.

"Caring" has resulted in the economic and legislative mess the US has become.

Care less. Think more.
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post #134 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Seriously though, why such a glib dismissal? Clearly there are many out there who find overpopulation to be quite the threat--so much so that one major superpower governing 1/6 of the Earth has instituted much stricter measures than I discussed. Making things a little bit more expensive to have a larger number of children isn't something so far fetched as to provoke such a rude comment from you.

You deserved much more than a mere rude comment.

Quote:
Chinese writer Xinran Xue, present for the birth, then hears a mans voice respond to the sight of the newborn baby girl. "Useless thing," he cried in disappointment. The witness then heard a plop in the slops pail. "To my absolute horror, I saw a tiny foot poking out of the pail. The midwife must have dropped that tiny baby alive into the slops pail!" I nearly threw myself at it, but the two policemen [who had accompanied me] held my shoulders in a firm grip. "Dont move, you can't save it, it's too late."

"But thats...murder...and youre the police!" The little foot was still now. The policemen held on to me for a few more minutes. "Doing a baby girl is not a big thing around here."

Quote:
Visiting a peasant family in Shandong, she sees a newborn baby girl snatched from her mother and dumped headfirst in the chamber pot: the head of the family demands a son and, because of the one-child policy, will not let the daughter live.

Such is the result of thinking human beings are an infestation upon Mother Earth.

http://www.economist.com/node/15636231
http://www.economist.com/node/15603722
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post #135 of 318
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Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

... Japan isn’t the only country in the race for space power. Solaren and California’s Pacific Gas and Electric utility are working together on a project to deliver 200 megawatts of power from space over a 15-year period that begins in 2015."

By the way, collecting all that unadulterated solar energy from the vacuum of space, then beaming gigawatts of it through all the layers of the Earth's atmosphere, much of it water vapor, can't possibly have any affect whatsoever on global warming...?
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post #136 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

The US hasn't established a goal that I'm aware of. Several US states have though, some of which have fallen short of their goals.

Setting a specific goal is problematic. For one, advances in existing energy technology are hard to predict. Carbon capture plants are one such example. So are unanticipated discoveries of oil or natural gas, both of which have happened in just the past year, which I alluded to in a previous post.

Clearly the DOE studies point to increased reliance on existing fuels such as natural gas. "Renewable" energy is also expected to increase, but that assumes continued government subsidies without which their viability is in serious doubt. The coming years are going to see a reckoning of the US's astoundingly high debt, and the electorate may not be in the mood to continue these subsidies when other needs (Soc Sec / Medicare / Obamacare ad nauseum) become more pressing.

The closest legislation I can think of is Bush's 2007 "clean energy" Act that steals money from us and throws it at all the outfits that have popped up in response to government handouts, chasing their alleged green dreams. Such cottage industries always arise in response to government largess - just as determining which ones are legitimate and which are fraudulent always follows. Show trials with some corrupt Congressmen going to jail alongside their CEO accomplices are the predictable result.

The bill comes close to answering your question by mandating the minimum of ethanol in motor fuel - but it only addresses "biofuels" and not corn ethanol. As I recall that was in response to some very legitimate concerns about our food supply. That's also the closest thing to a bright spot in that bill, since it mandates an increase of sugar and cellulose based fuels, and gets away from the corn ethanol we've been using. It simply makes no sense for me to cultivate land, plant, grow, water, fertilize, etc, harvest the crops, and then refine the product into fuel when food is expensive enough as it is.

As far as I know John Deere and Caterpillar aren't making any wind-powered combines and harvesters to farm our land. The diesel-powered-machinery intensive, ground water demanding, planting/growing/harvesting/refining process must also be taken into consideration if you're of the "green" mindset. Growing food for fuel can't possibly be cost effective, and wouldn't exist if not for government mandates. Needless to say I think that's short-sighted. At least the bill requires moving away, if only slightly, from dependence on corn ethanol.

Food is for eating. Fuel is for burning.

As for your next link:



I'm more than a little confused since none of those quotes appear in the story you linked. In fact, it seemed rather critical:



"Low-carbon" seems to imply more of what's been underway for a long time: increasingly efficient methods of using the oil, gas, and coal. Existing, proven technology that already exists and improves with each passing year; not solar power beamed from massive orbiting satellites (for a mere what, 300,000 homes? You're going to need a lot of satellites). The shift to "low-carbon" or even "lower-carbon" technologies sounds more reasonable, much to the chagrin of the greenies:



Sure, there's no limit what could be accomplished given "the right measures" - weasel words that could mean anything, from inventing a motor that runs on electrical charge in the atmosphere. Until then it's all...



...pi in the sky.

Yeah, I used the wrong link, but that one's quite something (over a trillion dollars to make a greener infrastructure) and personally I agree that more should be done to go further. The link for- ""It is very encouraging that 25 of the 27 E.U. countries intend to either exceed or meet their target, said the European wind associations policy director, Justin Wilkes.
This shows the vast majority of E.U. countries clearly understand the benefits of deploying renewable energy technologies, particularly wind power, Mr. Wilkes said.
The action plans indicated that 34 percent of the blocs electricity demand will be supplied from renewable sources by 2020." is here- http://www.ecoseed.org/en/politics/l...target-by-2020

Ethanol is seriously out of place at the moment because of corn prices going higher as a result of it's use as a fuel and the fact it takes, and will continue to take, especially in the US, so much energy to harvest it etc. It's far from green, thouI guess it helps with pollution in built up areas somewhat.

I won't get into a long debate about government funding, but you can bet that solar panels in space will be huge in the future. An abundance of clean energy is the future, let's just hope it won't be too late.
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post #137 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

You deserved much more than a mere rude comment.





Such is the result of thinking human beings are an infestation upon Mother Earth.

http://www.economist.com/node/15636231
http://www.economist.com/node/15603722

I agree, it's horrific that female babies are treated that way. Do you think such a thing would happen in the United States if a similar one-child limit were instituted? Do you think I'm calling for a one-child limit? Do you think that your argument counters the notion that overpopulation is a problem? Do you think? At all?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #138 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Do you think that your argument counters the notion that overpopulation is a problem? Do you think? At all?

Why don't you back up and actually try to prove that "over" population is a problem rather than merely claiming it is and then begging the question?

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post #139 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ethanol is seriously out of place at the moment because of corn prices going higher as a result of it's use as a fuel and the fact it takes, and will continue to take, especially in the US, so much energy to harvest it etc. It's far from green, thouI guess it helps with pollution in built up areas somewhat.

Sure, but it shifts pollution to other areas, where the corn or other so-called "green fuel" is grown and harvested.

Not that it matters but I think the air in New York City is remarkably clean. That's about as built up an area as you're likely to find. The air in Bangkok is another matter though.

I also did a study a while ago about the energy efficiency of ethanol-based fuel. Ethanol has less heat content than gasoline, so you have to burn more E85 than 100% gasoline. In other words a gallon of gas might take you 100 miles, but you have to buy more than a gallon of E85 to go the same distance. This obviously diminishes its benefits.

Quote:
I won't get into a long debate about government funding, but you can bet that solar panels in space will be huge in the future. An abundance of clean energy is the future, let's just hope it won't be too late.

Well, I still say you're dreaming, but I'm not belittling you for it. Dreams have their place.

Clearly we won't be able to burn coal, oil, and gas forever, though I think it will be a long time. And if we're going to run out of oil, then let's run out of it already, and not waste our time with arbitrary limits on its exploitation, massive food price inflation, and emotional arguments. If oil truly becomes scarce, a lot more people will start working on its replacement without one bit of government intrusion whatsoever.

And those idiotic despots in the Middle East can fight amongst themselves, while they find a way to grow food in the desert.
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post #140 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Clearly we won't be able to burn coal, oil, and gas forever, though I think it will be a long time. And if we're going to run out of oil, then let's run out of it already, and not waste our time with arbitrary limits on its exploitation, massive food price inflation, and emotional arguments. If oil truly becomes scarce, a lot more people will start working on its replacement without one bit of government intrusion whatsoever.

The interesting thing in all of this though is that it's all quite dynamic.

Many people think we know how much oil there is. We don't. We have some ideas of how much oil we could get right now if we needed to at a certain range of prices. But we don't really know how much oil (or coal or natural gas) there is. In fact, there's almost certainly much, much more than we think.

When it starts looking like we'll begin running out of these things, what happens*? Well, the price of them starts to go up...often a lot. What happens then? Suddenly there's incentive to start looking around for more. Processes for obtaining these things that were not profitable or practical at lower prices suddenly become profitable and more practical. More is found, then prices come back down again. There is the constant thrust and parry between supply and demand, all governed by the prices (which tell us something about these two factors.) My guess is we'll never actually run out of these things or, if we do, the options to replace them will be much more practical and obvious.

*The other thing that happens is the higher price sends a signal to conserve that resource (which happens through a variety of means.)

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post #141 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Sure, but it shifts pollution to other areas, where the corn or other so-called "green fuel" is grown and harvested.

Not that it matters but I think the air in New York City is remarkably clean. That's about as built up an area as you're likely to find. The air in Bangkok is another matter though.

I also did a study a while ago about the energy efficiency of ethanol-based fuel. Ethanol has less heat content than gasoline, so you have to burn more E85 than 100% gasoline. In other words a gallon of gas might take you 100 miles, but you have to buy more than a gallon of E85 to go the same distance. This obviously diminishes its benefits.



Well, I still say you're dreaming, but I'm not belittling you for it. Dreams have their place.

Clearly we won't be able to burn coal, oil, and gas forever, though I think it will be a long time. And if we're going to run out of oil, then let's run out of it already, and not waste our time with arbitrary limits on its exploitation, massive food price inflation, and emotional arguments. If oil truly becomes scarce, a lot more people will start working on its replacement without one bit of government intrusion whatsoever.

And those idiotic despots in the Middle East can fight amongst themselves, while they find a way to grow food in the desert.

I highly doubt that Japan would invest $21 billion in that space solar endeavour if they thought it wasn't viable. The costs for getting things up there is also decreasing rapidly which helps. Perhaps man will learn how to use the space around our planet to save him rather than deserting and destroying it. That seems like a far better idea than the incredibly annoying idea that this planet just doesn't matter because we have the rest of space to live in.

Ethanol does lower the octane rating slightly, thereby lower the mpg's slightly. I'm not sure what the octane rating is exactly though.
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post #142 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I highly doubt that Japan would invest $21 billion in that space solar endeavour if they thought it wasn't viable.

Depends on who's doing the "investing" now doesn't it? If it is the Japanese government, I don't think it would be all that hard to bring your presumption into question.

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post #143 of 318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Depends on who's doing the "investing" now doesn't it? If it is the Japanese government, I don't think it would be all that hard to bring your presumption into question.

I just found this from The Telegraph. The article says that solar rays are at least 5 times stronger in space than they are on earth and that the cost of the energy would be 6 times cheaper than what Japan currently spends, though I guess that's not a sure thing yet, they must have thought it through somewhat to come up with that figure.


"A select group of companies and researchers have been given the task of designing and building the Space Solar Power System.

The plan is to create a miles-wide array of photovoltaic panels, like the solar panels used on Earth, and place it in a geostationary orbit.

Solar rays are at least five times as powerful in space as they are at ground level, allowing the huge panels to gather vast quantities of energy.

Once collected, the solar energy would be beamed down to a substation on Earth, using laser beams or microwaves.

Jaxa say that the system would be safe, although they admit that it might be hard to reassure the public over the image of huge laser beams blasting down from the sky.

A test version of the orbital solar panels is expected to be launched in 2020. The final version should be in space in 2030, and will create about one gigawatt of energy – the equivalent of a mid-sized nuclear power plant.

If it all goes to plan, the electricity produced will be six times cheaper than current energy costs in Japan."
~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ene...-in-space.html


There just wouldn't be the private investment in this because the returns are so far away so lets take a moment to thank the Japanese government!
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post #144 of 318
Who is doing the "investing?"

Ohh...I see...it is Jaxa (government agency). So given this, I think the assumption that "I highly doubt that Japan would invest $21 billion in that space solar endeavour if they thought it wasn't viable." is dubious.

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post #145 of 318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Who is doing the "investing?"

Ohh...I see...it is Jaxa (government agency). So given this, I think the assumption that "I highly doubt that Japan would invest $21 billion in that space solar endeavour if they thought it wasn't viable." is dubious.

There'd be no investment if the government didn't invest in it. In the long run this will be a profitable private business and then you will ignore that the government got it going.
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post #146 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There'd be no investment if the government didn't invest in it.

First, there's no proof of this. Second, if it is true, it brings into question whether it is worthwhile "investment."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

In the long run this will be a profitable private business

First, if you'd like to lock down for us what "long term" means here then we could come back at that time and determine whether your assumption is correct. Until then it's simply vague speculation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

and then you will ignore that the government got it going.

The profitably you claim is questionable if the government "investment" is not factored into the total equation. Just about any business or industry could be considered "profitable" if you offload all of the initial capital and R&D costs on someone else (the tax payers).

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post #147 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

First, there's no proof of this. Second, if it is true, it brings into question whether it is worthwhile "investment."




First, if you'd like to lock down for us what "long term" means here then we could come back at that time and determine whether your assumption is correct. Until then it's simply vague speculation.




The profitably you claim is questionable if the government "investment" is not factored into the total equation. Just about any business or industry could be considered "profitable" if you offload all of the initial capital and R&D costs on someone else (the tax payers).

This is a long term project, it won't even be up and running till 2030 after a series of tests that may, but I doubt, fail. Private investment of $21 billion just wouldn't happen on a project that's two decades away from seeing any returns at all on that investment. Private capital is also costly.
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post #148 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Private investment of $21 billion just wouldn't happen on a project that's two decades away from seeing any returns at all on that investment.

Possibly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Private capital is also costly.

Well duh! \ Stealing money is always cheaper than borrowing it from legitimate lenders or raising it from legitimate investors.

But none of this addresses the long-term total profitability of the project. If you do not include the money stolen ($21B) to "invest" in this project, you will never get a true, proper, accurate and complete calculation of profit and loss.

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post #149 of 318
Thread Starter 
Portugal with a population of 11.5 million people, shows how it's done-

"Renewable energy in Portugal was the source for 45% of the country's electricity generation in 2010 - an increase of 28% in 5 years."
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewab...gy_in_Portugal
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post #150 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Possibly.




Well duh! \ Stealing money is always cheaper than borrowing it from legitimate lenders or raising it from legitimate investors.

But none of this addresses the long-term total profitability of the project. If you do not include the money stolen ($21B) to "invest" in this project, you will never get a true, proper, accurate and complete calculation of profit and loss.

Maybe it'll be a bit like student loans- once your earning enough then pay back the debt. Just like NASA's space program spurred new business opportunities that weren't there before, I bet this will too.

The solar rays are 5 times stronger up there and you don't have to worry about buying land or building on land that could be used for trees say. Tell me when coal gets 6 times cheaper than it currently is, even with all it's emissions.
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post #151 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Maybe it'll be a bit like student loans- once your earning enough then pay back the debt. Just like NASA's space program spurred new business opportunities that weren't there before, I bet this will too.

The solar rays are 5 times stronger up there and you don't have to worry about buying land or building on land that could be used for trees say. Tell me when coal gets 6 times cheaper than it currently is, even with all it's emissions.

How about you tell us when this is actually delivering on the claims and speculations.

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post #152 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

How about you tell us when this is actually delivering on the claims and speculations.

I will.
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post #153 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There'd be no investment if the government didn't invest in it.

I don't believe that's a defensible statement Hands.

I'll give you an example.

If you ever have a chance to visit San Francisco, I really recommend a tour of the cable car museum. It's been a number of years since I was there, but I found some fascinating comparisons to today's concerns.

For those who aren't familiar with it, SF is a city with a lot of hills. Back in the late 1800s (no I wasn't around then) city travel required horses. One person only needed one horsepower but a cart heavy with food or ice or building materials might have needed two or more horsepower. Thousands of horses thus inhabited the city. This method of transportation was working fine, but it wasn't without drawbacks: A horse was expensive to maintain, it only lasted two or three years before the city's steep hills became too much for it, and it needed constant supplies of food and water. Other problems were the required removal of over a hundred tons of manure, thousands of gallons of urine, and dozens of horse carcasses. Every single day. And guess what was used to cart in and out all that feed, manure, and dead horses... more horses.

The advent of the wire rope business, originally invented for the mining industry and later used by John Roebling for his suspension bridges in the US, presented a solution to this problem before anyone recognized a problem even existed.. An enterprising engineer thought to use this wire rope to build a system that would pull cars on tracks uphill. The first cable car line was so successful that several more lines followed (built by imitators... shocking!), and cable cars rapidly became popular in other cities as well.

These were massive engineering efforts that you can only appreciate by visiting the museum - I really recommend it. Forget about the engineering, a marvel in itself, what with all the onerous regulations, permits, labor unions and other obstacles to overcome, it's difficult to imagine anything like it could be accomplished today.

My point is that none of these cable car companies needed one nickel of taxpayer money. I don't recall from my tour what the initial investment was, but I do recall the lines were immediately profitable. Competition kept fares low. The (ick) environmental problem went away.

Government wasn't the answer. Capitalism worked. It always does... if you let it.
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post #154 of 318
Government wasn't the answer in one situation, therefore government is never the answer! YAY LOGIC!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #155 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Government wasn't the answer in one situation, therefore government is never the answer! YAY LOGIC!

Well the are actually so many ways and situations in which government is not this answer. This is merely one example.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #156 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

I don't believe that's a defensible statement Hands.

I'll give you an example.

If you ever have a chance to visit San Francisco, I really recommend a tour of the cable car museum. It's been a number of years since I was there, but I found some fascinating comparisons to today's concerns.

For those who aren't familiar with it, SF is a city with a lot of hills. Back in the late 1800s (no I wasn't around then) city travel required horses. One person only needed one horsepower but a cart heavy with food or ice or building materials might have needed two or more horsepower. Thousands of horses thus inhabited the city. This method of transportation was working fine, but it wasn't without drawbacks: A horse was expensive to maintain, it only lasted two or three years before the city's steep hills became too much for it, and it needed constant supplies of food and water. Other problems were the required removal of over a hundred tons of manure, thousands of gallons of urine, and dozens of horse carcasses. Every single day. And guess what was used to cart in and out all that feed, manure, and dead horses... more horses.

The advent of the wire rope business, originally invented for the mining industry and later used by John Roebling for his suspension bridges in the US, presented a solution to this problem before anyone recognized a problem even existed.. An enterprising engineer thought to use this wire rope to build a system that would pull cars on tracks uphill. The first cable car line was so successful that several more lines followed (built by imitators... shocking!), and cable cars rapidly became popular in other cities as well.

These were massive engineering efforts that you can only appreciate by visiting the museum - I really recommend it. Forget about the engineering, a marvel in itself, what with all the onerous regulations, permits, labor unions and other obstacles to overcome, it's difficult to imagine anything like it could be accomplished today.

My point is that none of these cable car companies needed one nickel of taxpayer money. I don't recall from my tour what the initial investment was, but I do recall the lines were immediately profitable. Competition kept fares low. The (ick) environmental problem went away.

Government wasn't the answer. Capitalism worked. It always does... if you let it.

That's a trip I'd love to make.

Capitalism is playing it's role already, but fortunately we've got government too. Like you said earlier solar wouldn't even get off the ground without government subsidies. There's a, or was, a monopoly on fossil fuel energy, except for hydro. That under a purely capitalist system would prevent these new technologies not only getting to market but also being developed sufficiently well that they would even have a potential future. You might think of it a bit like horses, co2 and mercury dropping carcasus all day and every day stinking up the place and a guy comes along with a better cleaner way of doing things but it's fought off by the horse traders who want to protect their business.
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post #157 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Like you said earlier solar wouldn't even get off the ground without government subsidies.

Do you even recognize what you're doing in this statement? What's you're implying (without any supporting proof or evidence)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There's a, or was, a monopoly on fossil fuel energy, except for hydro. That under a purely capitalist system would prevent these new technologies not only getting to market but also being developed sufficiently well that they would even have a potential future.

This is typical environmentalist bullshit.

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post #158 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Do you even recognize what you're doing in this statement? What's your implying (without any supporting proof or evidence)?




This is typical environmentalist bullshit.

Please delete.
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post #159 of 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You've lost me about here. Whatc

Which part lost you?

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post #160 of 318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Do you even recognize what you're doing in this statement? What's your implying (without any supporting proof or evidence)?




This is typical environmentalist bullshit.

You've lost me here.

Capitalism works very well in some ways, but these new technologies would not have been implemented by and large without government support because they couldn't compete on price alone. That's reality.
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