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What is the state of the Union?...your comments.

post #1 of 57
Thread Starter 
Obama's speech will target spending and divided Congress
Quote:
Facing the challenge of a divided Congress and a still-recovering economy, President Obama will deliver a State of the Union address Tuesday night that lays out a plan for "winning the future," according to a Democratic source with knowledge of White House talking points.

Your comments about the State of the Union Speech and on what state is the Union in?

無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2 of 57
Why are the Repubs wearing white?
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post #3 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Why are the Repubs wearing white?

Because they are pure virgins doing no wrong in what they do they think.Total bullshit on their part.
post #4 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Why are the Repubs wearing white?

For the same reason the Democrats are.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #5 of 57
Thread Starter 
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #6 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

White House Enhanced State of the Union

Oh I'm quite sure it will be "enhanced"...but probably not for the first time.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #7 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

White House Enhanced State of the Union
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh I'm quite sure it will be "enhanced"...but probably not for the first time.

無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #8 of 57
When I was a student living on campus we had the corp of cadets in the dorm next door. They had this message I always thought was silly over the door "Deeds Not Words". I always thought it was silly because "Deeds Not Words" is words and not deeds.

Many of us were never fooled by Obama's campaign words of bipartisanship and whatnot. True to form Obama tossed all that bipartisan rhetoric before stepping into the white house. Likewise we are not fooled about his new words about regulation or focusing on business or even his recycled words on jobs. In the previous two years he ignored jobs and went on a spending spree for his cronies.

Here come the republicans with their "second chance". They say they get it this time and yet pro-life issue are moving forward first rather than an focus on business, jobs, spending and taxes.

What's a voter to do?
post #9 of 57
Transcript here for the SOTU. Reading it now. And while I was reading the video was going on in the background. The one for the "Sputnik Moment" caught my attention at the end when he said he was going to end the subsidies for oil companies. I actually thought to myself, "Good for you. They make enough already." Now to see if I agree with any of his other action suggestions.

On the other side of the coin I saw something else that you rarely see, Democrat leadership openly opposing Obama like Harry Reid did on a touchy, for lawmakers...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_state_of_union
Quote:
Eager to show some budget toughness, Obama pledged to veto any bill with earmarks, the term used for lawmakers' pet projects. House Speaker John Boehner and other Republicans applauded. But Obama's promise drew a rebuke from his own party even before he spoke, as Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said the president had enough power and that plans to ban earmarks were "a lot of pretty talk."

Words are nice, but actions would be good. I hope Obama proves Reid wrong on the earmarks.

Anyone else?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #10 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

When I was a student living on campus we had the corp of cadets in the dorm next door. They had this message I always thought was silly over the door "Deeds Not Words". I always thought it was silly because "Deeds Not Words" is words and not deeds.

Many of us were never fooled by Obama's campaign words of bipartisanship and whatnot. True to form Obama tossed all that bipartisan rhetoric before stepping into the white house. Likewise we are not fooled about his new words about regulation or focusing on business or even his recycled words on jobs. In the previous two years he ignored jobs and went on a spending spree for his cronies.

Here come the republicans with their "second chance". They say they get it this time and yet pro-life issue are moving forward first rather than an focus on business, jobs, spending and taxes.

What's a voter to do?

Bullshit. Bull. Shit.

Continuing the extortionate tax cuts for the richest of Americans is not a spending spree "for his cronies", that's a spending spree for the right wing fucks who blackmailed him into responding to "show me the money" being sung by THEIR cronies. Continuing the pace in Afghanistan as it has been is not a spending spree for Obama's cronies. If you are saying it is, then you are lying. If you are saying Obama has not (regrettably) crossed the aisle, you are lying. If you are saying that Obama has kept any of his promises on cutting taxpayer dollars being dished out to (Republican) big Oil, (Republican) Wall Street, you're lying.
post #11 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bullshit. Bull. Shit.

Continuing the extortionate tax cuts for the richest of Americans is not a spending spree "for his cronies", that's a spending spree for the right wing fucks who blackmailed him into responding to "show me the money" being sung by THEIR cronies. Continuing the pace in Afghanistan as it has been is not a spending spree for Obama's cronies. If you are saying it is, then you are lying. If you are saying Obama has not (regrettably) crossed the aisle, you are lying. If you are saying that Obama has kept any of his promises on cutting taxpayer dollars being dished out to (Republican) big Oil, (Republican) Wall Street, you're lying.

Anything about his speech you care to chime in on? I know I probably missed something in my reading of it but he was all over the map in his suggestions and promises. There appeared to be something in there for everyone. I like many of the ideas, but was not sure how much success he would have in implementing them.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #12 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Continuing the extortionate tax cuts...

"Extortionate tax cuts?!?!" \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #13 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

"Extortionate tax cuts?!?!" \

Telling turn of phrase. Could have better said disproportionate. \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #14 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bullshit. Bull. Shit.

Continuing the extortionate tax cuts for the richest of Americans is not a spending spree "for his cronies", that's a spending spree for the right wing fucks who blackmailed him into responding to "show me the money" being sung by THEIR cronies. Continuing the pace in Afghanistan as it has been is not a spending spree for Obama's cronies. If you are saying it is, then you are lying. If you are saying Obama has not (regrettably) crossed the aisle, you are lying. If you are saying that Obama has kept any of his promises on cutting taxpayer dollars being dished out to (Republican) big Oil, (Republican) Wall Street, you're lying.

I think the voters explicitly voted in the midterms for taxes not to be increased by Obama.
post #15 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

When I was a student living on campus we had the corp of cadets in the dorm next door. They had this message I always thought was silly over the door "Deeds Not Words". I always thought it was silly because "Deeds Not Words" is words and not deeds.

Many of us were never fooled by Obama's campaign words of bipartisanship and whatnot. True to form Obama tossed all that bipartisan rhetoric before stepping into the white house. Likewise we are not fooled about his new words about regulation or focusing on business or even his recycled words on jobs. In the previous two years he ignored jobs and went on a spending spree for his cronies.

Here come the republicans with their "second chance". They say they get it this time and yet pro-life issue are moving forward first rather than an focus on business, jobs, spending and taxes.

What's a voter to do?

Vote what is right in your heart.No one is perfect.
post #16 of 57
Yes, extortionate tax cuts. It is extortion of the middle class by the rich who are threatening the middle class with empty threats about job cuts unless they get to keep ther taxes below Reagan levels, as they are now. Of course, the fact is that the rich who are employers won't cut jobs because they need employees to make money. And the rich who aren't employers aren't going to affect the economy one way or another by having their tax cut five or ten percent. Cutting jobs would cut employers' profits, no matter how high taxes are. You need to employ people to make money. And the rich want to make money.
post #17 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I think the voters explicitly voted in the midterms for taxes not to be increased by Obama.

I think the tax cut extension vote happened before the changing of the guard.
post #18 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, extortionate tax cuts. It is extortion of the middle class by the rich who are threatening the middle class with empty threats about job cuts unless they get to keep ther taxes below Reagan levels, as they are now.

Riiiight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And the rich who aren't employers aren't going to affect the economy one way or another by having their tax cut five or ten percent.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #19 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I think the tax cut extension vote happened before the changing of the guard.

But after the election. So the timing is indeed interesting, and it is especially interesting when trying to analyze the politics of extortion in this matter. The legislation could have been enacted after the new year, but it was rushed to be completed, presumably by influence of the incoming leadership. And, in order to get it passed, they had to agree to hundreds of billions of dollars more in spending. As I recall the total package was another $800B with the tax cuts comprising only 1/3 of that. This starts sounding more like a bribe to get the President to agree to continuation of current tax rates. Perhaps the "extortion" was going the other direction.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #20 of 57
The way to beat the Chinese is to go full-on capitalist, same way Reagan beat the Japanese. Appealing for innovation is not going to do it, cutting red tape and taxes just might.
post #21 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bullshit. Bull. Shit.

Continuing the extortionate tax cuts for the richest of Americans is not a spending spree "for his cronies", that's a spending spree for the right wing fucks who blackmailed him into responding to "show me the money" being sung by THEIR cronies. Continuing the pace in Afghanistan as it has been is not a spending spree for Obama's cronies. If you are saying it is, then you are lying. If you are saying Obama has not (regrettably) crossed the aisle, you are lying. If you are saying that Obama has kept any of his promises on cutting taxpayer dollars being dished out to (Republican) big Oil, (Republican) Wall Street, you're lying.

First, I don't think he's out to enrich his "cronies." I really don't. But FloorJack has a point. "Deeds, not words." The issue with the speech is that Obama has governed nothing like his rhetoric from last night. I suppose time will tell if he means what he says.

I'd like to address your post more specifically. Man, you folks on the left just CANNOT get off the "tax cuts for the rich" wagon, can you? I find it a fascinating view, but one that makes no sense. That is, unless your goal is different than mine. To me, taxation is supposed to fund the essential operations of government. I get the impression that both you and the President (and many Democrats) think taxation exists to redistribute wealth; to make things more "fair" and outcomes more equal. Is this correct?

If taxation exists to fund government, then soaking the rich is not effective, nor moral. Also consider that many of the "rich" are not rich at all. Many are operating small businesses as S-corps. They can reinvest after tax income back into business, which creates increased commerce and...wait for it...jobs. Add to this that the "rich" create demand for goods and services. Should they pay a little more than others? Absolutely. But they already do. That is, unless you're talking about truly wealthy people...those making say, $5 million+ a year. We could add a "luxury" tax of sorts on them. This would make more sense then soaking people that make $500,000 a year.

Consider this realistic hypothetical: We have a married couple, both of whom have worked their whole lives. They have three children and live in the suburbs in a house they built 10 years ago. Both are teachers. Both started teaching in 1980 and made about $15,000 a year. The husband has worked longer, and has had the opportunity for more education, so he makes $125,00 in a very good suburban school. The wife took time off for children, and as a result makes about $80,000...bringing their total income to $205,000. Their children are starting college soon. They didn't overbuy their house, but they needed more space. 10 years ago, they spent $225,000 building their home. Their mortgage and property taxes are $2000 a month. They buy used cars and pay $800 a month for two reliable, safe and comfortable vehicles. They pay their taxes, are members of their local church, and give $250 a month to charity.

So let me ask you: Are these people "rich?" Of course not. They are comfortable. These are the kind of people you're talking about taxing more. These are the kind of people that buy goods and services in our consumer-spending oriented economy. Good idea.
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post #22 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

First, I don't think he's out to enrich his "cronies." I really don't. But FloorJack has a point. "Deeds, not words." The issue with the speech is that Obama has governed nothing like his rhetoric from last night. I suppose time will tell if he means what he says.

I'd like to address your post more specifically. Man, you folks on the left just CANNOT get off the "tax cuts for the rich" wagon, can you? I find it a fascinating view, but one that makes no sense. That is, unless your goal is different than mine. To me, taxation is supposed to fund the essential operations of government. I get the impression that both you and the President (and many Democrats) think taxation exists to redistribute wealth; to make things more "fair" and outcomes more equal. Is this correct?

If taxation exists to fund government, then soaking the rich is not effective, nor moral. Also consider that many of the "rich" are not rich at all. Many are operating small businesses as S-corps. They can reinvest after tax income back into business, which creates increased commerce and...wait for it...jobs. Add to this that the "rich" create demand for goods and services. Should they pay a little more than others? Absolutely. But they already do. That is, unless you're talking about truly wealthy people...those making say, $5 million+ a year. We could add a "luxury" tax of sorts on them. This would make more sense then soaking people that make $500,000 a year.

Consider this realistic hypothetical: We have a married couple, both of whom have worked their whole lives. They have three children and live in the suburbs in a house they built 10 years ago. Both are teachers. Both started teaching in 1980 and made about $15,000 a year. The husband has worked longer, and has had the opportunity for more education, so he makes $125,00 in a very good suburban school. The wife took time off for children, and as a result makes about $80,000...bringing their total income to $205,000. Their children are starting college soon. They didn't overbuy their house, but they needed more space. 10 years ago, they spent $225,000 building their home. Their mortgage and property taxes are $2000 a month. They buy used cars and pay $800 a month for two reliable, safe and comfortable vehicles. They pay their taxes, are members of their local church, and give $250 a month to charity.

So let me ask you: Are these people "rich?" Of course not. They are comfortable. These are the kind of people you're talking about taxing more. These are the kind of people that buy goods and services in our consumer-spending oriented economy. Good idea.

When Obama talks about $250,000 he's talking about income remaining after all deductions.
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post #23 of 57
And for fuck's sake, stop pretending that $250k isn't filthy stinking rich still.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #24 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And for fuck's sake, stop pretending that $250k isn't filthy stinking rich still.

Why don't you stop pretending that it is.

I know people in this income range and even slightly higher. In no way, shape or form would I describe them as "filthy stinking rich."

In part it will depend on where you live. If you're making that kind of money an able to live in Arkansas or Alabama or someplace like that, then sure...maybe "filthy stinking rich." But most other places in the suburban rings around most major cities or in most major cities? Not so much.

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post #25 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And for fuck's sake, stop pretending that $250k isn't filthy stinking rich still.

Truly does depend on where you live. And before you say they should move then consider that you are not in any position to tell those people how to live their lives any more than you want me telling you how to live yours.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #26 of 57
Back to the topic at hand, any comments on the actual speech? After taking time to digest I would say, if he did everything he claimed he would do in the speech i would not agree with all of it, but would likely be happy with the majority of the results.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #27 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Truly does depend on where you live. And before you say they should move then consider that you are not in any position to tell those people how to live their lives any more than you want me telling you how to live yours.

But they are telling me how to live mine by living beyond their means and then crying poor, demanding tax cuts.

Now, I certainly don't put those making $250k and $1M or $1B in the same boat. Not at all. Those earning more than $250,000 SHOULD be paying higher taxes (and remember, tax rates are marginal dumbfucks, so if the rates go up on $250k+, it doesn't actually affect those making $250k even). But those making $1M should be paying EVEN MORE. More tax brackets! We need them!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #28 of 57
Only the income above $250,000 is taxed at the higher rate. After you take off all the deductions the people in this bracket are pretty well off, especially as their income rises.
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post #29 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But they are telling me how to live mine by living beyond their means and then crying poor, demanding tax cuts.

Now, I certainly don't put those making $250k and $1M or $1B in the same boat. Not at all. Those earning more than $250,000 SHOULD be paying higher taxes (and remember, tax rates are marginal dumbfucks, so if the rates go up on $250k+, it doesn't actually affect those making $250k even). But those making $1M should be paying EVEN MORE. More tax brackets! We need them!

Thanks for telling us of your desire of what everyone else should be doing with their money.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #30 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

When Obama talks about $250,000 he's talking about income remaining after all deductions.

That doesn't matter. For a business, we're talking about net profits after taxes. If those are lower to due to higher taxes, there is less to reinvest (e.g. hiring new people). Uncertainty about the economic environment and future taxation is even worse for business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And for fuck's sake, stop pretending that $250k isn't filthy stinking rich still.

I don't see how you can claim that it is. If you compare it to third world countries, well obviously. $10,000 a year is filthy rich in that case. But in middle and upper-middle class America, you're kidding yourself. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice living. One will be quite comfortable. But it doesn't even approach "filthy stinking rich." It doesn't even touch "rich!" As others note, it depends where you live as well. A family of five living in suburban Philadelphia? $250,000 in Silicon Valley, or New York City? Forget it. A good living to be sure, but let's not get carried away.

Speaking of which, why does that hypothetical couple I mentioned get punished by paying more? They worked their whole lives to get to their income level. Now, you come along and decide "guess what, you rich fucks...you get to pay me more money now so I can give it away to others." Seriously, BR?
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post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Thanks for telling us of your desire of what everyone else should be doing with their money.

Do you really think that businesses don't play a major role here. Super low wages and unsafe work environments are but two things the scum that makes huge profits at the expense of their workers would exploit even more. How anyone canseriously argue that businesses will have the interests of society at heart is out of their minds. It's so absurd to just rely on business to set all the rules it's almost not worthy of discussion at all. The plastic bubble your ilk live in is truly astounding.
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post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That doesn't matter. For a business, we're talking about net profits after taxes. If those are lower to due to higher taxes, there is less to reinvest (e.g. hiring new people). Uncertainty about the economic environment and future taxation is even worse for business.



I don't see how you can claim that it is. If you compare it to third world countries, well obviously. $10,000 a year is filthy rich in that case. But in middle and upper-middle class America, you're kidding yourself. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice living. One will be quite comfortable. But it doesn't even approach "filthy stinking rich." It doesn't even touch "rich!" As others note, it depends where you live as well. A family of five living in suburban Philadelphia? $250,000 in Silicon Valley, or New York City? Forget it. A good living to be sure, but let's not get carried away.

Speaking of which, why does that hypothetical couple I mentioned get punished by paying more? They worked their whole lives to get to their income level. Now, you come along and decide "guess what, you rich fucks...you get to pay me more money now so I can give it away to others." Seriously, BR?

Obama gave a big tax cut to that couple of yours. Do you not even know that?
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Super low wages and unsafe work environments are but two things the scum that makes huge profits at the expense of their workers would exploit even more.

Time for another hyperbole alert I think.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

How anyone canseriously argue that businesses will have the interests of society at heart is out of their minds. It's so absurd to just rely on business to set all the rules it's almost not worthy of discussion at all. The plastic bubble your ilk live in is truly astounding.

What's really astounding (and disturbing) is your (and other's) deeply dystopian view of world that has more freedom.

First, no one is claiming that businesses will always have the interests of society at heart. Some do, some of the time. But no one is really making this claim. Second, I have argued against businesses making all the rules. What you fail to recognized, in the plastic bubble you and your ilk live in, is that businesses use the government to set all (or many) of the rules and they are able to do this because we keep giving government more and more power. This is how businesses limit (or eliminate) competition, fix prices, offload expenses and losses to the tax payers, force people to buy their product whether it is wanted or not. This is how they exploit everyone.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

But in middle and upper-middle class America, you're kidding yourself. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice living. One will be quite comfortable. But it doesn't even approach "filthy stinking rich." It doesn't even touch "rich!"

To be fair to BR, we should step back and give him the opportunity to objectively define both "rich" as well as "filthy stinking rich."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #35 of 57
Jesus Christ. I am amazed tht someone can argue that we can't expect people to move away from a location they can't afford because they can't afford it. It's frightening that someone can honestly think that.
post #36 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


First, no one is claiming that businesses will always have the interests of society at heart. Some do, some of the time. But no one is really making this claim. Second, I have argued against businesses making all the rules. What you fail to recognized, in the plastic bubble you and your ilk live in, is that businesses use the government to set all (or many) of the rules and they are able to do this because we keep giving government more and more power. This is how businesses limit (or eliminate) competition, fix prices, offload expenses and losses to the tax payers, force people to buy their product whether it is wanted or not. This is how they exploit everyone.

That's a perfectly reasonable argument that I agree with in some ways, but it doesn't negate the good government's produce. You say governments gone way too far, but your positions are so clouded by principals that you fail to see the good.

I grew up poor and can assure you that i'm glad i didn't have to pretend to be religious to get an education. I'm glad my mum didn't have to marry someone to survive. I'm glad my mother didn't have to take on a full time job to live whilst bringing up four kids. I'm glad she could go to do courses and then go to university even though she was poor. I'm glad she always had a roof over her head and I'm glad she always had health care.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #37 of 57
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Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Jesus Christ. I am amazed tht someone can argue that we can't expect people to move away from a location they can't afford because they can't afford it. It's frightening that someone can honestly think that.

I said nothing about them being able to afford the location or not. I said, based on the location, they may not actually be rich by his standard. I then went on to say that you also cannot force that person to move so they can fit your definition of rich based on location. I hope that helps your comprehension of what I actually meant.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But they are telling me how to live mine by living beyond their means and then crying poor, demanding tax cuts.

Now, I certainly don't put those making $250k and $1M or $1B in the same boat. Not at all. Those earning more than $250,000 SHOULD be paying higher taxes (and remember, tax rates are marginal dumbfucks, so if the rates go up on $250k+, it doesn't actually affect those making $250k even). But those making $1M should be paying EVEN MORE. More tax brackets! We need them!

How are they telling you how to live yours? And how do you know they are living beyond their means? If they are making $250K and the can afford where they live (say a home in the NYC area for example) but the cost of living is higher so it compares to a person making $120K in Portland Oregon. (Just making an example, not using actual figures) Then they are not "filthy stinking rich", they may be merely comfortable where they live and are doing so within their means. Unless you feel they should live within your means?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That's a perfectly reasonable argument that I agree with in some ways, but it doesn't negate the good government's produce. You say governments gone way too far, but your positions are so clouded by principals that you fail to see the good.

Sorry that my judgement is clouded by principles. Perhaps I should abandon my principles. Is that your approach?

As for the "good" government's produce, I welcome a rational discussion of those are and whether they outweigh the "bad" produced in the process of creating that "good?" This debate, if it were to occur, should include (at least) some of the following: discussion of how "good" and "bad" are actually determined, discussion of both positive and negative consequences of government action and how they balance up against each other, discussion and debate about whether these "goods" or positive consequences could come about by other means than through government and why or why not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I grew up poor and can assure you that i'm glad i didn't have to pretend to be religious to get an education. I'm glad my mum didn't have to marry someone to survive. I'm glad my mother didn't have to take on a full time job to live whilst bringing up four kids. I'm glad she could go to do courses and then go to university even though she was poor. I'm glad she always had a roof over her head and I'm glad she always had health care.

I'm glad for all of that also. What does that have to do with this?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #40 of 57

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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